Japanese Language

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broken headphones

5:40 AM

@Schokolade ありがとうございます、これは初めて知りました

Anonymous

6:07 AM

This is a very exciting comment thread:

Anonymous

A: The meaning of で in this sentence

It would be the conjunctive form of the auxiliary verb "だ" omitting the connecting verb "有る" ( some suggest ある instead ), I think. Now let's take at the conjucating table of the auxiliary ”だ”. As you can see at , だ in the conjunctive form is で and the suggested potential verb following after ...

Schokolade

@goldbrick 笑

エディオンってミドリ電化が前身だって最近知った

@brokenheadphones （和歌山とか兵庫が、大阪・京都と違うってことを？・・・・じゃないよね）

@snailplane うわ～～～ｗｗ

う～ん・・・？

@snailplane And you show me the one who got 12 upvotes says, ----But neither is natural in your sentence: 日本人では有りません and 日本人では在りません.--- Come on, man, I have never ever seen in my entire life or read someone wrote 日本人では在りません. Even the 6th grades know that. Come on and 12 upvotes????? — Kentaro Tomono 1 hour ago

わからん！

どういうこと？

Anonymous

6:24 AM

I don't really know how to respond.

Schokolade

6:58 AM

１つ飛ばして上の Kentaro さんのコメントを和訳すると、「『 "日本人では有りません" と "日本人では在りません" のどちらも、自然ではない。』だって？おいおい、 "日本人では在りません" なんて、見たことも聞いたこともないよ。どうして12点も入ってるんだ？」となりますよね。つまり「『日本人では在りません』は、自然ではない」ということで Tsuyoshi さんと Kentaro さんの意見は一致しているようですが、Kentaro さんは Tsuyoshi さんの回答のどこがおかしいとおっしゃっているのでしょうか？ — Schokolade 10 mins ago

I hope I'm making sense

unarist

このチャットルームに来るたびに常連さんの名前がちょっとずつ変わってる気がする。。

3 hours later…

Flaw

9:49 AM

@snailplane I'm confused to what the point of contention is

@Schokolade Isn't the answer by Tsuyoshi supporting the argument that 日本人では在りません is not natural?

then, if it's in line with his own assertion, and he's contesting it..........

my mind is blown

7 hours later…

Schokolade

5:00 PM

@Flaw そうだと思います

新しいコメントによると、KTさんは、Tsuyoshiさんの "日本人では有りません is not natural" の部分に同意できないのだそうです

(わからんかったわ)

2 hours later…

Anonymous

7:32 PM

Q: is suki an adjective and a verb?

I thought that "suki" was a verb which meant "to like". It is hard to me to make sense why it seems to be always used with "desu". Now in a webpage I read that suki is an adjective, which means something like "liked" like some sort of passive voice I guess? That's why it uses the verb desu almos...

Anonymous

I actually really like this question because I think it's hard to answer. It's true that 好き is in most respects a deverbal adjective (= an adjective derived from a verb form, but not actually a verb), but because speakers have started to use 好き with を, I think the question is a little more complicated than that.

Anonymous

In Japanese morphology is really important, and 好き doesn't have the inflectional forms of a verb, so it's difficult to call it a verb. But for these speakers it takes を sometimes, which adjectives don't usually do. Some linguists have called it a "transitive adjective".

Earthliŋ

8:57 PM

@snailplane I was thinking about this actually (I deleted it from my draft, though). I think that even people who use が好き may move to を好き in case of a particle clash, i.e. where you already used up は and が...

I guess を好き is somewhat natural because を is the particle that would go with a verb (and 好き derives from a verb).

Particle clash also makes some people use を欲しい and 欲しい is cognate with 欲る【ほる】, another verb!

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ I do think the answer cannot be that it's a verb because Japanese word classes are marked so strongly by morphology. Literally every Japanese verb ends in -u in 終止連用形, for example, and 好き does not.

Anonymous

In some grammars there's a concept of the "central" members of a class and the "peripheral" members of the class.

Anonymous

In English, we have words like worth which have grammar that is very atypical of any word class, and the best we can really do is pick the one with the closest grammar and talk about how it's exceptional.

Anonymous

Then we can describe the "central" members of a class as the words which exhibit all the properties you expect of that class. The "peripheral" members are out toward the edges of the class; if you drew a big map with all of the word classes in it, you might find that some are a little closer to the borders between two classes than others :-)

Earthliŋ

I wasn't suggesting to call it a verb. (Did it come across that way?)

Anonymous

9:08 PM

Nope!

Earthliŋ

OK =)

Anonymous

I just wanted to elaborate a little bit, because I think it's an interesting discussion.

Anonymous

I think there are Japanese words which where the word class is less clear-cut.

Anonymous

Like おおきな, for example.

Anonymous

I think that 好き is very clearly not a verb, but it has some verb-like qualities.

Earthliŋ

9:09 PM

But it is interesting that it takes を, because pure 形容（動）詞 definitely don't.

Anonymous

So it might live just a little bit away from the center of adjective-land.

Anonymous

But not close enough to verb-land to see it out the window :-)

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Worth is a transitive adjective in English.

Anonymous

Adjectives generally do not take direct objects in English. A couple do, though.

Anonymous

Due could also be considered a transitive adjective.

Earthliŋ

9:13 PM

Hm... I've never tried to understand English =)

I've always only used it

Anonymous

Well, it's not like you need to learn grammar to speak a language :-)

Anonymous

I like grammar, though. It's my friend.

Earthliŋ

2 hours later…

Earthliŋ

11:41 PM

@snailplane It's curious that the "neutral" vowels /i/ and /u/ are precisely those that are allowed to be voiceless (at least in modern Japanese, but presumably also in older forms, such as when what has become ん was sometimes represented with む or ぬ). Readings like けつ are certainly two morae, but to me they look more like one syllable. (Especially in light of /-ti̥/, /-tɯ̥/, /-ki̥/, /-kɯ̥/ becoming /-Q/ through gemination.)