Japanese Language - 2015-05-19

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12:16 AM

8

A: Beginner miscomprehension of spoken Japanese - finding wrong word boundaries

What Lyle said is true―you'll want to practice a lot. It's much easier to recognize words and phrases you're used to hearing, not just used to reading. That means ear training, and there's no way around it! Still, we can look at some facts about Japanese pronunciation. I'm a non-native speake...

> 時間です{LHHH}。

Anonymous

Oh, you're pointing out an error :-)

Anonymous

D'oh!

broccoli forest

@unarist WYSIWYGって大事ですね

uh, my English writing is too slower than you...

Anonymous

Haha, I'm sorry! :-)

Anonymous

12:22 AM

Hi, broccoli forest! Thanks for the comment!

Anonymous

Would you two mind helping me fix up my answer a little bit? :-)

@broccoliforest あのコメント、最初読んで？？ってなりましたｗ

Anonymous

I can write です as 高低, but then I need to explain that separately because of the vowel devoicing

broccoli forest

@unarist そりゃあもう…自分でもびっくりしたので

Anonymous

Sorry for my mistakes! I'm just learning, but I tried to write an answer anyway :-)

broccoli forest

12:26 AM

@snailboat then how about 時間で{LHH}す :D

Anonymous

@broccoliforest Oh, that's a fun trick :-)

私も書きながらそこに気づいてしまって迷ってました（って英語で書くのをあきらめた

Anonymous

You can talk to me in Japanese! I know a little Japanese :-)

Anonymous

You can leave comments in Japanese, too

I know that, but I think English is better for other users.

Anonymous

12:35 AM

Ahh, that makes sense :-)

also, I should try to write English for practice :p

そうでもしないと英語書く機会がない・・・

Anonymous

I'm editing! :-)

Anonymous

I haven't changed the 行くには part yet

Anonymous

12:56 AM

@broccoliforest I don't have the recording of the OP's sentence

Anonymous

@broccoliforest I found some recordings online though!

Anonymous

@broccoliforest rhinospike.com/audio_requests/Tallguitarman/26231

Anonymous

What do you think of these? (It's toward the end in each one)

broccoli forest

@snailboat um, I don't know if you can see images now but

Anonymous

I need to switch computers to record them so I can load them into Praat

broccoli forest

12:58 AM

user image

Anonymous

I need to figure out what I am doing with the には stuff in order to fix it

Anonymous

I can see the image :-)

Anonymous

@broccoliforest Oh, wow, it's still like that, I thought I changed it

broccoli forest

@snailboat all of them pronounce 行くには{LHLL}

Anonymous

Okay, let me start by changing all of them to look like your comment... :-)

Anonymous

1:03 AM

Do you see anything else crazy-wrong in my answer, by the way?

Anonymous

I know it's a long, rambly answer... :-)

broccoli forest

@snailboat no, it seems fine and shiny, as far as I could understand :)

it's a shame that Android app can't interpret JSE engines...

Anonymous

@unarist Thank you very much for pointing that out!

Anonymous

I always seem to make mistakes when talking about pitch accent.

Anonymous

@broccoliforest Thank you too! :-)

Anonymous

1:07 AM

@broccoliforest I know, right? It would be better if the furigana were implemented server-side

Anonymous

The JavaScript on Japanese.SE is kind of a hack

Anonymous

It's been very useful for us but it's nonetheless a hack

broccoli forest

and what's worse is that it won't display Japanese SO!

Anonymous

Oh no!!

broccoli forest

not at all

Anonymous

1:08 AM

I installed the iPhone app for Stack Exchange, used it for a few minutes, then uninstalled it...

Anonymous

I just use a browser

Anonymous

I don't understand what the app is for

broccoli forest

I'm not sure if it's only me or not

@snailboat me neither

Anonymous

So I didn't realize it had that problem :-(

broccoli forest

no chat compatible either

Anonymous

1:10 AM

@broccoliforest Do you mind if I edit your comment to reflect the correction in your other comment? It might prevent someone from being confused :-)

broccoli forest

@snailboat ぜひ :)

but the Android app has one feature better than Android Firefox is that auto-resizing

Anonymous

Oh, yeah?

broccoli forest

so that you can see long diagram and chart

which FF can't scroll for some reason

@broccoliforest iOS app can't too

Anonymous

Oh no! Is there a meta thread about it already?

broccoli forest

1:14 AM

oh, I don't know

it reminds me that I still don't know how to go to meta in Android app

In iOS app, it shown as one of Stack Exchange sites and I can open it.

broccoli forest

0

A: Full site not responding to iPad

I had problem with the full site from iPad. I followed cypher's advice and the mobile site seems to work on iPad. Probably, with smaller touch devices, the site is automatically switched to mobile site and the problem had not arisen. As a work around, I can manually switch to mobile site. So, thi...

is this related?

by the way, it has had an improvement on "sandwich"

user image

isn't it?

@broccoliforest It seems to be related to full site in browser, not apps

Anonymous

@broccoliforest Oh, did you see? My sandwich question got closed! Primarily Opinion Based!

Anonymous

26

Q: Is a hamburger considered a sandwich?

Today, a fellow user was given a CAPTCHA that looks like this: He wasn't sure how to solve the CAPTCHA, so he asked me: Are hamburgers considered sandwiches? Well, I couldn't figure it out, so I'm asking here! I know that the hamburger has in the past been called a sandwich. Wikiped...

1:20 AM

lol

Anonymous

Wait, did it get reopened?

broccoli forest

I see it open

Anonymous

Oh, it did! Yippee! :-)

broccoli forest

congrats :D

english.stackexchange.com/posts/246580/timeline

Anonymous

1:22 AM

I've been using this site since 2012 and I didn't know there was a timeline! :-)

broccoli forest

@unarist どこにそんな機能があったんですか

Anonymous

58

Q: Feedback Request: New Timeline Question View

There is an experimental timeline view for questions now available on meta ONLY! (Now working on SO, SF, and SU as well) This is partially motivated by comments about how difficult it is to follow very active questions which have a lot of activity, and also the feedback on the API which was heav...

discussion feedback timeline experimental

broccoli forest

なるほど…

以前日本語版SOのチャットルームで言及されてました chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/17893?m=19724913#19724913

Anonymous

@unarist Thanks, I'm going to use that timeline thingy a lot now :-)

broccoli forest

1:25 AM

in 何でも部屋, Jan 26 at 12:00, by ento

@quesera2 /posts/{post_id}/timeline にある隠しページのことですか? メインでも使えるはずです

「隠し」なんですねやっぱりｗ

experimental since Jan 20 '10...

Anonymous

Well, some experiments go on for 5+ years, apparently

broccoli forest

much as like Request For Comments were once requests...

RFCってすごい名前ですよねえ・・・

broccoli forest

@unarist ところでこれJSEでも効きます？

1:29 AM

@broccoliforest japanese.stackexchange.com/posts/24390/timeline

broccoli forest

@unarist あそっか、posts/か

失礼しました

ずっとexperimentalって、なんだか「永遠の17歳」みたいだなーと思いました

話を戻すと、JLSEの拡張表記がアプリで表示されない件はまだメタSEになさそうです meta.stackexchange.com/…

@broccoliforest I often use this UserScript stackapps.com/a/4238

broccoli forest

ないですか

@unarist こんな機能が…

4

Q: Why is ローマ字 spelt without an ン?

Why is ローマ字 spelt without an ン? As far as I can tell, it's not because you can't have an ん sound before a じ sound, because 漢字 has an ん sound before 字. Did early Europeans' term for Roman letters not use the letter "n"? Also, does the ローマ in ローマ字 refer to the Roman empire whose language influen...

etymology orthography

Anonymous

I tried to answer that, but he didn't like my answer

broccoli forest

honestly I can't understand the meaning of the post

Anonymous

1:39 AM

@broccoliforest So, here's the backstory...

Anonymous

Lots of English-speaking learners of Japanese think the word is "romanji"

Anonymous

google.co.jp/search?q=%22romanji%22

Anonymous

So the OP got confused by this

Anonymous

And the logic in their question is pretty confusing...

Anonymous

"As far as I can tell, it's not because you can't have an ん sound before a じ sound" ← ???

broccoli forest

1:43 AM

I think, I don't know, he must have thought too much and got confused or something...

Anonymous

Yeah...

Anonymous

Maybe I can improve my answer

broccoli forest

it's like a new sandwich-hamburger problem?

(confused)

「じ」の前に「ん」がダメって、「漢字」とかどうなるんですかね・・・

broccoli forest

「じ」の前に「ん」が来ないわけではない、ということは分かってるみたいです

1:51 AM

あ、そっか "it's not because" を見落としてました

ローマ字ってISO規格になってたんですね・・・ ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3602

broccoli forest

iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_ics/…

なんか分かち書きの基準まであるらしいですよ

ISO24614？

broccoli forest

そうです

誰か使ってるんでしょうかね

それってCJKでまとめられるんだ・・・単語をスペースで区切らないことは共通してるけども

ISO 24614 に準拠した検索エンジン（というかインデックス生成）、みたいな

broccoli forest

でもKはスペースで区切るんですよね普通は…

それよりもタイ語とかの方がよっぽど区切らない

謎です

Anonymous

2:16 AM

@broccoliforest There are spaces, but they might want to divide more finely

Anonymous

You can define how small or large of chunks you want to use depending on the task...

Anonymous

@broccoliforest I thought of Thai too! :-)

Anonymous

0

Q: Internet Speak (Japanese) - "orlF" emoticon meaning?

I've seen some people in japanese writing the emoticon "orlF", and I really want to know what it means... xDD. Please help~ ^^'

translation meaning usage slang dialects

Anonymous

orlF? Is that like orz but... Umm...

Anonymous

orlF??

Anonymous

2:22 AM

I'll wait for other users to vote, but I don't really think that question is about the Japanese language

broccoli forest

something like...kitten out of cardboard??

Anonymous

Wow, you have a good imagination!

Darius Jahandarie

@snailboat I think either you accidentally'd a word in this sentence in your edit or my brain isn't working: "There isn't really any linguistic significance to it, and you should making this mistake yourself."

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie Ah, thank!

Anonymous

I do seem to have my brain on backwards today.

Darius Jahandarie

2:29 AM

np! That sounds painful.

Anonymous

It's okay, I'm used to using the occipital lobe for seeing anyhow.

Darius Jahandarie

I was trying to figure out what the difference between 寝る and 眠る is the other day (when using the verbs for the shared meaning of "to sleep"). The 使い分け's I can find are mostly useless, like "「寝る」「眠る」は、ほぼ同じ意味で使われるが、元来「寝る」には、体を横たえるという意味があるのに対し、「眠る」にはそのような意味はない。"

broccoli forest

q.hatena.ne.jp/1364971676

Darius Jahandarie

I'm convinced they aren't just synonyms though. The only concrete example I can think of is ○寝たい ✗眠りたい though.

@broccoliforest orzからのorLなら、腰を高く上げているようにも見えますね

私は最近「寝たいけど眠くない」ということがありますね

Anonymous

2:36 AM

@DariusJahandarie Why is 眠りたい marked with a ×?

Anonymous

Google Translate translates 一件落着 to "Disposition of the case"

Darius Jahandarie

I don't think it works. At least it sounds very weird compared to 寝たい to me. You can be 眠い but I don't think you can 眠りたい.

It does seem to have hits in BCCWJ.

Anonymous

寝る　　　　6845973
寝たい　　　291578
眠る　　　　1579408
眠りたい　　184817

Anonymous

In the Google Web N-Gram Corpus

Darius Jahandarie

I guess I'm just wrong. Maybe they are pretty much exactly the same.

broccoli forest

2:41 AM

you can 寝る by your will but not 眠る

Anonymous

Dwight Bolinger claims that no two forms are ever completely alike

Anonymous

Arnold Zwicky calls this Bolinger's Dictum

Darius Jahandarie

@broccoliforest Oh, nice!

Anonymous

@broccoliforest Like sleep and fall asleep?

Darius Jahandarie

I think that parallel breaks down though, because I don't think 眠る is a 瞬間動詞. Or at least, it can have durations like 二時間眠った.

broccoli forest

2:45 AM

@snailboat maybe, but I'm not sure now

○ 昨日寝た？
? 昨日眠った？
○ 昨日眠れた？

Anonymous

Well, a question about the difference between 寝る and 眠る could be fun :-)

Darius Jahandarie

We have one.

11

Q: 寝る vs. 眠る, what's the real difference?

What's the real, definite difference between 寝【ね】る and 眠【ねむ】る? I know they both mean "sleep", but also that each carries some additional (sometimes, figurative) meanings. Where do the meanings overlap? In what scenarios are they interchangeable?

vocabulary nuances synonyms

Anonymous

Oh! Okay.

Anonymous

iyokan.lib.ehime-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/iyokan/2318/1/…

Anonymous

> ・・・「睡眠のために布団に入る」の意の「寝る」は単なる外的動作を表わし、意志動詞である。他の用法の場合は無意志動詞である。

Darius Jahandarie

2:51 AM

How do you find these things so fast?

Anonymous

I googled it!

Anonymous

I'm going to save this paper to read later :-)

Darius Jahandarie

I'm unfortunately still far from being able to read papers like this... :(

Anonymous

I can't find その１

3:22 AM

@DariusJahandarie 30分寝る、とか言えますよ

「寝てしまった」とは言いますが、「眠ってしまった」はあまり言わないような。「寝落ち」って言葉も。

3 hours later…

6:26 AM

@broccoliforest 「寝れた？」は使います？　(あっだれもいない！）

関西人だけだったりして・・・

@snailboat みつかりませんね

その３も存在するようです・・

5 hours later…

11:42 AM

@Choco broccoliさんの書いてる「昨日寝れた？」ではなく？

broccoli forest

12:17 PM

@Choco 使いますねー（一応正しくは「寝られた」ですが）

@unarist 厳密には言ってないですｗ

broccoli forest

12:29 PM

@cypher I'm waiting expectantly for this feature (◕ฺ ω◕ฺ )

Kanji with the highest stroke count:

user image

It looks like a joke, doesn't it?

@broccoliforest あ、寝れたじゃなくて眠れたですねｗ

broccoli forest

japan.vietnamworks.com/questions

謎の転載サイトが…

「よく眠れた？」の方が正しい気はしますが、「よく寝れた？」も普通に使いますね

broccoli forest

@FriendlyGhost could be a copyright trap too :)

12:39 PM

@broccoliforest 以前StackOverflowを機械翻訳したサイトがあったの思い出しました

@broccoliforest There seems to be a problem connecting to the server. Please check your internet connection and reload this page. :-)

broccoli forest

@unarist 今でもたまにQ&Aサイトを機械翻訳したページが引っかかりますよね

@FriendlyGhost reload and I get an extra profile view!

@broccoliforest Oh my ghost. :-)

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