Japanese Language

9:51 AM

Hi all. On the following dictionary page of にもかかわらず, there are two numbers written as［1］-［4］. Are the numbers the word's アクセント? If so, how do I pronounce that?

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/j_dictionary/ITEM-DJR_nimokakawarazu_-010/%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E3%81%8B%E3%81%8B%E3%82%8F%E3%82%89%E3%81%9A%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E6%8B%98%E3%82%89%E3%81%9A/beginswith/%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E3%81%8B%E3%81%8B%E3%82%8F%E3%82%89%E3%81%9A/?itemid=DJR_nimokakawarazu_-010&title=%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E3%81%8B%E3%81%8B%E3%82%8F%E3%82%89%E3%81%9A%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E6%8B%98%E3%82%89%E3%81%9A

goldhick

10:05 AM

投稿した後に質問をもう一度確認したら(普通逆だろ)、OPの方が「にくい (or づらい), which is something I really want to use to get across that it's hard but not impossible」って書いてあったのに気付いて、「目に余る」だと「hard but not impossible」のニュアンスを欠いているような気がしまして。そしたらなんか他の部分もあまり自信がなくなって・・・。　でもchocolateさんとsnail‌planeさんがいいっていってくれたから、復活させようかな。（ちょろいヤツ）

chocolate

1:05 PM

@goldhick おお・・・　「にくい・つらい」を使いたいって・・

いや～でもいいと思うんだけどな～・・

あの例文の訳としては、一番、すっきりしてるっていうか。。

今のところ回答とコメントで出てるのは、どれもちょっと回りくどいっていうか・・

「見過ごしにくい」とかそういうのも、全部ひっくるめて、「目に余る」に集約されてる、っていうか。

@IanY. そうですね、I think these numbers show the pitch accent

たぶん・・・　[1] shows that there's a drop after に as in に↓も

and [4] shows there's a drop after ら, as in かかわら↓ず

I might be totally wrong, though

I'm sure @snailplane knows better than me

@goldhick (普通逆だろ)←いや、わかります、めっちゃ。私もいっつもそんな感じ！

優しいエイリアン

1:51 PM

Is 費用の１０％の手数料を引いた in 費用の１０％の手数料を引いた金額をお返しいたします a gapless relative clause?

Ian Y.

@chocolate thank you~

Ian Y.

3:20 PM

What does "大体ない" mean? For example:

* 自然に抜けた毛に毛根は大体ないです。 (http://%E9%A0%AD%E7%9A%AE%E6%BD%A4%E3%81%84.com/entry72.html)
* 背景は大体ないです。 (http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=48979458)

WeirdlyCheezy

I imagine "mostly isn't" / "mostly doesn't exist"?

Eg, the first one is something like "Hair pulled out naturally mostly doesn't include hair roots"

Ian Y.

@WeirdlyCheezy That makes sense. Thanks.

The grammar of that word is so special. Maybe I'm not experienced enough, but I didn't know ない can be attached to an noun or an adverbial directly.

WeirdlyCheezy

Yeah it is a little bit odd in some ways. jisho.org lists one of its POS' as "adverbial noun", which might account for that

Ian Y.

I see. :)

WeirdlyCheezy

I'm sure I'd make actual linguists cringe by saying this, but I tend to think of a basic clause as a verb phrase and then adverb phrases, where adverb basically means everything else. Kind of forms a graph with one central node (the verb phrase) and then some number of modifying nodes. (Of course multi-clause sentences are more complicated). The adverbial phrases could be noun-phrase + particle combos, or naked adverbs, or adverbial usages

eg, inserting a time on its own as an "adverbial phrase" is acceptable in Japanese

The "hard part" of learning a language is largely figuring out the various possible ways to build those top level nodes, and also their interrelationships (for example, there's often "soft" or "hard" rules on their ordering that exist on a per-pair basis and usually just have to be learned by reading/listening a lot)

Anyway, long story short, the moment I see "adverb" anywhere in the dictionary entry for a word, I expect the unexpected. =P

Coming back to 大体, we can probably treat 大体ない internally as a quantity-modifying adverb 大体 acting directly on ない, and externally as inheriting ない's properties

Ian Y.

3:52 PM

Thanks for the advice. That's a nice approach. (°ー°〃)

WeirdlyCheezy

4:06 PM

No problem. I just hope I'm not giving you bad information, lol

kuchitsu

8:22 PM

Is there some document on how I'm supposed to format questions and answers? I see a lot of edits being made where, for example, a sentence is put into the yellow box type thing. So I guess that's the preferred style, but is it actually described somewhere?

Williham Totland

I don't know that a comprehensive guide exists.

These things are kind of organic.

If you get a lot of edits for some particular thing, try to do that thing.

kuchitsu

Perhaps the need for most of these edits wouldn't exist if there was a guide... :) Could save some time for the mods.

Williham Totland

Edits aren't just done by mods; they're (mostly?) done by other users.

And there's nothing particularly wrong with being bad at getting the specifics of the locally preferred formatting right; if you don't know how to best format a question, just make sure the question is worth asking and answering, and those with more of a sense of style will fill in the blanks.

That's not to say you shouldn't make an effort, of course, but know your limitations and all that. :)

kuchitsu

8:38 PM

Yeah I know, this is kind of a minor thing to worry about.

Williham Totland

And do keep in mind that an edit isn't a censure.

If anything, it's the opposite: "This is a thoughtful question", says the editor, "and I want to help it get viewed and answered."

kuchitsu

Yes, I guess an edit can be harmful only if the editor somehow misunderstands my intention.

Flaw

17

Q: How should I format my questions on Japanese Language SE?

Japanese Language Stack Exchange has a few features and conventions to help everyone with understanding each other's questions and answers. If you find them useful, please feel free to use: Furigana support: [漢字]{ふりがな} → [漢字]{ふりがな} Pitch accent notation: [ありがとう]{LHLLL} → [ありがとう]{LHLLL} Emphas...

doesn't seem to answer what you're looking for though

there isn't a style guide on what a question should look like

sometimes edits are done to reduce clutter or to neaten up things

kuchitsu

Yeah that's a bit different, but still interesting. I haven't seen this before, thanks.

Flaw

it can be quite irritating to read everything in one paragraph with no spacings

kuchitsu

8:45 PM

I've seen people doing this on various forums, quite a pain indeed.

Williham Totland

Indeed.

Flaw

in any case you can rollback an edit as the question owner if you feel the edit has changed your intention

Williham Totland

Anyway, you probably don't want to sweat the little stuff. Do look at other questions and try to get a sense for when to use what formatting, but if you can't quite grok it, do try and trust the team.

kuchitsu

Ok. :)

Williham Totland

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd rather have a poorly formatted but thoughtful and interesting question than a well-formatted piece of inane drek any day. :)

Flaw

8:55 PM

a poorly formatted question takes a bit of effort to see that it's thoughtful and interesting, while a well-formatted piece of inane drek would clearly present itself as drek since it's so well-formatted.

Williham Totland

True, but most of the time the community will descend on a poorly formatted question and polish it up, because they're awesome.

Which isn't, again, to say you shouldn't make an effort, you absolutely should.

But if you're not good at formatting questions to leave them in line with local fashions, that shouldn't stop you from asking questions.

Flaw

I'm in an edit-y sort of mood. Couldn't get to sleep and I've got a new mechanical keyboard since my old keyboard had one of its legs fall out and become imbalanced.

I'm addicted to the clicky sounds

kuchitsu

Never seen such a keyboard. Can the sounds be a problem if you have someone sleeping in the nearby room, for example?

Flaw

I think the door stops most of the sound (I hope)

kuchitsu

Hehe.

Williham Totland

9:05 PM

click 4 lyfe

click lyfe

/me throws up slightly gangesque signs in the general shape of the Das Keyboard logo.

jkerian

9:26 PM

I have one of these on the way (assuming it ever actually ships... always an interesting question with crowdfunding): japan.cnet.com/news/service/35074411

I haven't decided yet whether I need to learn to hit 'b' with my left hand... or just always use the thing "together"

Flaw

you can hang that on your neck and cross your arms over your chest

jkerian

Such a thing is physically possible... yes :P

Williham Totland

9:46 PM

それのどこが「Ultimate」か。

No, I'm sure it's a nice keyboard, but it seems like it's more built around the idea of having a keyboard that can be split in half than a discovery that a keyboard that can be split in half is a good idea.

jkerian

10:02 PM

Eh... I've used divided keyboards before. They're a bit nicer for typing a lot of text, but not all that wonderful for vim

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