Japanese Language

12:20 AM

c++ is still heavily used in games

for large complex games and also, c++ for android/ios cross platform mobile libs on larger mobile games

Anonymous

3:25 AM

もちくる does exist, but the two expressions in the title (and the newly edited version of the question body) are much more common. — virmaior 13 mins ago

Anonymous

@virmaior What's もちくる? — snailboat ♦ 52 secs ago

ssb

I thought the same thing

there are a few results for it on google though so I just figured it's some slang that I don't know about

although the content of those results doesn't lend much to the idea that it's actually a word

Anonymous

1

Q: Trouble understanding grammar in 「名を、柊という。」

In the novel I'm reading now, there's this section where the protagonist is talking about her boyfriend's brother for the first time, introducing him to readers and giving his description. There's also a sentence which gives the brother's name: 名を、柊という。 I have a problem understanding gramma...

grammar

Anonymous

Is it wrong that I interpreted it as inversion? 柊という名を（verb omitted）

Anonymous

It's one of those things where the meaning is pretty obvious but I'm not entirely sure how to analyze it

jkerian

4:26 AM

@Rilakkuma C++ for embedded is pretty normal.... but some of the things people automatically associate with C++ don't apply, but we heavily use templates, for example.

Also, simply due to the fact that every modern language is a) Object Oriented, and b) provides hooks to C++ libraries.... if you want to build a library that can be used by as many new languages as possible, build it in C++

Darius Jahandarie

4:54 AM

I wish my last answer was not so roundabout.

Anonymous

Your romaji is kind of oddly inconsistent, although I guess that's not really important

Darius Jahandarie

Oops. I always type cho and sha, and when I try to switch to a sane romanization scheme I always mess up like that.

Anonymous

Are you trying to represent pronunciation or kana orthography?

Darius Jahandarie

Kana orthography.

Anonymous

I thought so, so fu and cho would be hu and tyo

Darius Jahandarie

5:09 AM

Yeah.

"human" looks funny.

Argh.

Anyways, what do you think of the answer?

Anonymous

Hmm, well, I avoided answering because I wasn't sure what the answer was :-) So I'm not in the best position to evaluate it

Darius Jahandarie

Well, less than an evaluation of the entire thing, there are bunch of small bits to it which I think you would probably have some opinion or another on.

Anonymous

I think the comma confused me.

Darius Jahandarie

"In this case, と is not really compartmentalizing a predicate, but instead acting quotatively" <- I made this claim intuitively... are those things actually distinguished?

It's not literally a 「」 type と, but it feels different from the と which holds predicates.

Darius Jahandarie

5:34 AM

Or maybe it is the 「」 type of と... hmm. Yeah, it is.

Anonymous

Your post is great, but the subject of the sentence 名を柊という is 柊 him/herself. i.e. その人は名を柊という — user4092 17 mins ago

Anonymous

How come there are so few examples of 〜と名をいう?

Anonymous

Shouldn't scrambling be okay in that case?

Anonymous

It's still not all sitting right in my brain

Darius Jahandarie

Mm. Scrambling sounds very weird / wrong to me. It also sounds equally wrong to me in the raising-to-object sentences though.

You can put stuff after と of course, but it seems there's a を < と ordering constraint at least. (Is that the right notation for that? I forget.)

彼をジョンと私はいう seems grammatical to me I think, though I can't imagine a case you'd actually say that.

We all know how accurate my judgements are though. :)

Maybe that ordering constraint is indicative of some extra syntax going on here... I'm no syntactician though. Don't understand a lick of that stuff when it starts getting really complicated.

I do kind of wish we had people as knowledgable as sawa about the actual theory around at times like these.

Anonymous

5:56 AM

I wish Martin's tome were less dense and impenetrable :-)

Anonymous

It's really written like a thousand pages of his personal notes, somewhat organized but . . .

Darius Jahandarie

I can see why something that comprehensive would end up like that.

The little progress I've made on my website has reinforced the difficulty of doing something really structural for Japanese in my mind.

Anonymous

I really want to get Iwasaki's book, but I still haven't

Anonymous

The parts I saw on Google Books impressed me with how neatly they were organized (conceptually)

Anonymous

amazon.com/Japanese-Revised-Oriental-African-Language/dp/…

Anonymous

6:00 AM

And there's a paperback edition (the hardcover is like $150, but the paperback is cheaper)

Darius Jahandarie

This does look nice.

Anonymous

Iwasaki is a professor of Japanese and Thai linguistics who has written quite a bit

Anonymous

I'm interested in reading more of his perspective on は

Darius Jahandarie

I was just reading about that around page 220.

I really hate that explanation.

Anonymous

I'm going to order a copy tonight I think

Anonymous

6:06 AM

I really liked how he addressed -te iru (online on Google Books in the copy of the non-revised edition)

Anonymous

Google Books is really handy.

Anonymous

I use it for searching Martin's grammar. It's so much easier than using the index :-)

Anonymous

I wish I could somehow say, "Hey! I have this book! Just let me look at it online without cutting big chunks out" :-)

Anonymous

My study buddy picked up a copy of Martin cheap too, and sent it to some scanning service (I think they destroy books and turn them into PDFs)

Anonymous

I don't have the PDF myself though

Anonymous

6:09 AM

As much as physical books can be nicer than PDFs, sometimes I think I'm spoiled by instant search functionality

Anonymous

(Or, well, near-instant.)

Anonymous

Yang Muye was talking about voice with という

Anonymous

I think that all passives in Japanese are morphologically marked

Anonymous

So I would never call という 'passive' myself

Anonymous

But if you think about it as corresponding to English 'is called'

Anonymous

6:13 AM

You know, there's a set of constructions some people use the term 'middle voice' for in English, even though English doesn't have a syntactic or morphological middle voice

Anonymous

Where it's syntactically active but the semantic role played by the subject is what you would expect in a passive

Anonymous

As in: "She doesn't frighten easily."

Anonymous

So that had me thinking, maybe という here could be likened to a middle voice construction

Anonymous

I went to look up middle voice and Japanese

Anonymous

But I didn't find anything analyzing it that way

Anonymous

6:18 AM

Since Japanese doesn't have an actual middle voice, the term is inappropriate, but maybe 'middle construction' is okay, as in other languages where the concept is useful

Anonymous

中間構文

Darius Jahandarie

Hmm, I would always write "She doesn't get frightened easily.", but I do accept that one, interesting. :)

Anonymous

Well, there are a number of other examples. That one was CGEL's prototypical example

Anonymous

We say things sell well, for example

Anonymous

When they aren't doing the selling, they're being sold

Darius Jahandarie

6:24 AM

Yeah.

This is neat. I should learn more about English.

Anonymous

CGEL is really theoretically neat

Anonymous

It's a huge project put together by Rodney Huddleston, a theoretical linguist, who pulled in Geoff Pullum and thirteen other collaborators

Anonymous

It ended up around 1800 pages long

Anonymous

The chapter on information packaging is fascinating, they got Birner and Ward to coauthor it

Darius Jahandarie

Ah yes, you've recommended this to me before... I would really like this, but I can't really invest time or money in this I think...

Anonymous

6:27 AM

Birner and Ward have written a lot of important papers and books on things like definiteness and information packaging, including Information Status and Noncanonical Word Order in English

Anonymous

(1998)

Anonymous

It talks about all the different ways the same propositional information can be presented

Anonymous

And what implications that has on its information structure (are we talking about X? Is X new information or old? etc.)

Anonymous

I have yet to find anything quite like it for Japanese

Anonymous

English linguistics is really fun! But it makes me realize just how complicated language really is

Anonymous

6:30 AM

It intimidates me a little when it comes to Japanese, since I find English linguistics to be challenging enough as a native speaker :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Heh

Anonymous

But I'm also happy when I realize certain things are the same across languages

Anonymous

Everything starts to feel like it's fitting into a bigger picture

Anonymous

That's why I like linguistics! :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah. My favorite explanations of things in Japanese are the ones that line up more or less perfectly with English.

Which is not most of them.

Anonymous

6:31 AM

Well, I also like when you can clearly contrast and say "Well, it's the same in this respect, but different in this respect."

Anonymous

Because then you can get a clearer idea of how both languages work

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah, that's nice too.

Anonymous

Okay! Ordered Iwasaki's book :-)

Anonymous

Ooh, looking through Birner & Ward's website, I see they have an article on information structure in the Handbook of English Linguistics, which is conveniently at the library :-)

Anonymous

Information structure is really neat.

Anonymous

6:34 AM

It's striking to me how different it is in English and Japanese

Anonymous

One thing that tends to be true across languages is "given before new"

Anonymous

@Choko Hello!

Anonymous

Darius put you into his answer :-) japanese.stackexchange.com/a/18704/1478

Darius Jahandarie

アチャー

怒ってるな…

Anonymous

Oh no! Well

Anonymous

6:41 AM

If you ever want to use me as an example, I'm on record as considering snails to be cute

Choko

@snailboat ただいま

@snailboat あはは

ssb

おほほ

Choko

@DariusJahandarie だれが？

非さん？

Darius Jahandarie

非回答者さんは多分あんまり怒ってないだろうｗ

可愛いと言っても、それでも褒め言葉だ

Choko

valueって価値っぽい気がすんねんけど

価格なのかな・・

ssb

6:51 AM

isn't 価格 used in more financial settings?

would you ever talk about 価格 for how much it costs to buy onigiri at a convenience store?

Anonymous

When I see 価格

Anonymous

The first thing I think of is

ssb

i feel like that'd always be 値段

Anonymous

kakaku.com

Anonymous

Hehe

ssb

6:52 AM

me too!

I did a little searching and I see 価格 used a lot in the sense of a "market"

Choko

おや。私が突っ込みを入れたせいでマイナスが入ったのでは・・・

Anonymous

I think of 値段 as the price at a store, 価格 as prices more generally and 価値 as its worth (not always in terms of money)

Anonymous

Does that seem reasonable?

Anonymous

I didn't vote on that answer yet

Choko

私もまだ・・

ssb

6:57 AM

should we think of 価格 and 価値 as being related?

Anonymous

I did downvote once recently . . . japanese.stackexchange.com/a/18697/1478

Anonymous

価値　→　値打ち

Anonymous

I think 価値 as value is good, or worth

Anonymous

Oh, it's a tricky question!

ssb

perhaps

価格 = 価値 represented as an amount of money

Anonymous

7:01 AM

I'm just running my mouth :-)

Anonymous

I didn't think of it that way

Anonymous

I think it makes sense though!

Anonymous

I'm going to look all of these words up :-)

ssb

we also see 価格 in words like 市場価格

and maybe 価格 is linked in some way to 価額？

Anonymous

I was thinking you would try to get a lower 値段 when you're buying something at a store by showing them the lower 価格 you found on the internet

Anonymous

7:04 AM

価額？

Anonymous

i don't know where that fits in

Anonymous

I guess 価額 is a value explicitly in terms of money?

ssb

希望小売価格

= MSRP

Anonymous

That fits with thinking 価格 is price more generally

ssb

"「価格」は「一般的な相場」の金額、
「値段」は「個々の取引金額」と認識するとしっくりきます。"

zeirishigyoukai.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-110.html

I don't think oldergod's answer is far off

just not sure if it's totally accurate..

Choko

7:07 AM

日頃話すときは価格より値段って言うよね、『これ、値段いくらですか？』って

『これ、価格いくらですか』はあんまり・・

ssb

価格 seems like more of a 堅い表現

Anonymous

値段 is the price when you actually go to buy something, 価格 is just prices in general

ssb

like 看護

Choko

そうね

ssb

漢語

Anonymous

7:08 AM

Ahh

Anonymous

That makes sense too!

Anonymous

I'm learning! :-)

ssb

i'm just speculating here too

Anonymous

@ssb 看護←漢語？

ssb

yes

Anonymous

7:09 AM

Hee

ssb

I was too lazy to edit it

even though I could have just pressed the up key

Anonymous

I'm so used to seeing 看護 because it always comes up first

Anonymous

Even though I type 漢語 a lot more often

ssb

漢語

now that comes first

Anonymous

My input method on Linux makes some choices that aren't ideal for me

Anonymous

7:10 AM

It adjusts short-term but it forgets long-term

Anonymous

So when I type こと I get 琴 and 古都 before 事

Anonymous

But I want to type 事 more often...

Anonymous

Sometimes I feel like input methods are kind of like kanji quizzes

ssb

wow, that is a strange ordering

Anonymous

Well, it's not the best input method ever . . . :-)

ssb

7:11 AM

I even get 子と before any of those other ones

Anonymous

It goes:

Anonymous

1. 異 2. 言 3. 琴 4. 古都 5. 殊 6. 事

Anonymous

Why?? I don't know :-)

Anonymous

子と is 13!

Darius Jahandarie

I use mozc and it gives me 事 first. But I never use any of the other ones, so that might be why. :)

Anonymous

7:13 AM

I wanted to type 氣 the other day because of that image with 氣 instead of 気

Anonymous

It's always around #88

Anonymous

I just typed ことだ and got 仔とだ

Anonymous

Sigh, Anthy :-)

Darius Jahandarie

Hahaha. Yeah, I'd recommend mozc.

There's an ibus backend for it.

Anonymous

I loathe ibus.

Darius Jahandarie

7:14 AM

Me too!

Anonymous

Yay! Loathing pals.

Darius Jahandarie

Whoo!

What do loathing pals do?

Do we go out and loathe together?

We can arrange an ibus protest.

Anonymous

Likewise loathing. Synchronized spurning.

Darius Jahandarie

Haha.

Alright, I should have gone to bed hours ago. Good night!

Anonymous

Rest well!

Anonymous

7:19 AM

もちくる does exist, but the two expressions in the title (and the newly edited version of the question body) are much more common. — virmaior 4 hours ago

Anonymous

@virmaior What's もちくる? — snailboat ♦ 4 hours ago

Anonymous

@snailboat it has a definition here: ejje.weblio.jp/content/%E6%8C%81%E3%81%A1%E6%9D%A5%E3%82%8B though no examples... So presumably it exists somewhere. The definition makes sense to me if we view it is as "I will go get ~ and come back" (持ち as 連体形 + くる). But I've never seen it anywhere so I assumed OP was making an error in transcription — virmaior 4 hours ago

Anonymous

I notice that page says もちきたる and not もちくる

Anonymous

I guess I could understand もち＋くる though (like もち、くる)

Anonymous

I don't think I've heard もちくる or もちきたる yet

Choko

7:47 AM

@DariusJahandarie めちゃめちゃ高級なレストランだったら、スプーンが汚れてるとか、あってはならない事なので、こっそりウエイターさんに『これ、汚れてるんで、取り替えてください』って言‌ったら、きっと、めちゃめちゃ謝ってきはると思う。でも、安いラーメン屋さんとかだったら、『スプーンが汚れてるから取り替えて』って言っても、謝りそうにない・・・「あい‌よっ！」

とかいって、取り替えて・・・

取り替えたスプーンも、また、汚れてそうｗｗ

ラーメン屋さんだと、スプーンじゃなくて、『レンゲ』かな

しかし・・・高級レストランでも、安いラーメン屋でも、

「不味い。」って言えないね～～

@DariusJahandarie あら・・・

私、understandable なら、訂正しないけど・・訂正したほうがいいのかな

でも、私の英語だって、変でも、

まあ分かればいいか、って感じで話が進むもんねえ

Anonymous

It might be silly of me, but I'm still concentrating on trying to understand Japanese, and not so much on speaking

Anonymous

I started re-reading 死せる魔女がゆく, which is the Japanese translation of my favorite English book

Anonymous

8:03 AM

I finished it a couple years ago, but I didn't entirely understand everything--I kept reading anyway!

Anonymous

This time it's much easier to understand :-)

Anonymous

It makes me feel good, like I've made progress over the last couple years :-)

Anonymous

That's nice because I've been learning Japanese since 1998, but in all that time I didn't learn a lot

Anonymous

1997 or 1998? I can't remember anymore!

Anonymous

So it feels like I'm finally making a little progress :-)

Anonymous

8:05 AM

I definitely know a lot more vocabulary now! It seems like you have to learn about a zillion words to learn a language.

Anonymous

I think maybe vocabulary helps more than anything.

Anonymous

I get some practice talking to my friends in Japanese but for some reason I talk in English here

Anonymous

Maybe because I know there are people here who will laugh when I make mistakes ;-)

Anonymous

I shouldn't be so insecure, though

Anonymous

I should go to Lang-8 and post some stuff!

Choko

8:10 AM

@snailboat お

Rilakkuma

ぬむい〜

Choko

ssb

8:26 AM

i always think food like that is a little too morbid

Anonymous

@ssb I can't eat cute food!

Anonymous

There's morbid, um, hold on . . .

Anonymous

google.com/…

Anonymous

Have a slice of baby!?

Anonymous

Baby cakes are disturbing to me

Anonymous

8:28 AM

I think I saw some scary ones on Cake Wrecks

Choko

こんなんどお？google.com/…

Anonymous

Oh, cute!

Anonymous

Okay, I could eat Pikachuu or Hello Kitty :-)

Anonymous

I don't know what character that is

Anonymous

8:30 AM

Anonymous

Baby cakes T_T

Choko

うわｗｗｗ

ssb

i could eat a baby cake

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

Japan has cute 弁当, and the UK has creepy baby cakes

Anonymous

8:39 AM

Anonymous

What is going on here??

Choko

ストレッチマンですね・・

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

My arms are stretched out now, thanks to ストレッチマン

Choko

気持ち悪い

►

Anonymous

8:48 AM

Yeeee

Rilakkuma

ooo, brainz

Anonymous

Zombie Rilakkuma!

Rilakkuma

btw, regarding morbid food things

3 to 5 business days

Please excuse me, gotta wipe the vomit off my keyboard

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Nooo, vomit goes in the bit bucket!

Rilakkuma

8:50 AM

an artist Aida Makoto has his picture series of people food - it is pretty 気持ち悪い but has a lot of symbolism

vomit, yummy!

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma Also gross! :-)

3 to 5 business days

yummy and also gross?

There was one in the news... don't quite remember what it is

Rilakkuma

:)

Gross&Yummy foods corporation Inc.

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays That also has scope over vomit and brain cupcakes!

Anonymous

Vomit isn't tasty. It tastes like corrosive!

Rilakkuma

8:52 AM

how do you know the taste of corrosive?

3 to 5 business days

I never tasted corrosive, so yeah...

(ninja'ed)

Anonymous

Ah! Because vomit is corrosive.

Choko

胃液が入ってますからね・・・

Anonymous

So it's sort of definitional.

Anonymous

Oh, everything we're discussing tonight is gross . . . except the pikachuu bentou :-)

ssb

8:54 AM

here's something gross for you

Rilakkuma

and Rilakkuma

Anonymous

Noooo

Rilakkuma

what' so gross about goya?

Anonymous

@ssb Whuh?

Rilakkuma

it is 100% yummy

ssb

8:54 AM

everything!

Rilakkuma

and looks yummy too

Anonymous

It looks like a hot pepper with bad skin

Rilakkuma

in the real life it rather looks like a cucumber after an atomic war

3 to 5 business days

It's like boils

Anonymous

Mmm, cucumber

Rilakkuma

8:55 AM

because it is pretty much cucumber

ssb

these things are EXTREMELY bitter

Rilakkuma

not so bad, I eat them raw all the time

Choko

苦いやん

Rilakkuma

depends on how do you cut them on where did they grow

Choko

へえ～

ssb

8:55 AM

I'm pretty sure I am a supertaster though with regard to bitterness

3 to 5 business days

I read 苦い as くるしい haha

Rilakkuma

bitter ones can be cut thinner and immersed in water for an hour

lol

Anonymous

食べたことない・・・

Rilakkuma

食べてみて！美味いと思う。

goya chanpru is one of my favourite foods in japan

3 to 5 business days

I eat raw vegetable sometimes while cutting them - those are bitter too

ssb

8:57 AM

even the slightest taste of goya causes my face to contort into an uncomfortable mess of discomfort

Rilakkuma

hmm

sounds like goya intolerance.

:)

ssb

and grapefruit

Rilakkuma

you know - lactose intolerance and goya intolerance!

3 to 5 business days

grapefruit is... tricky

Choko

グレープフルーツはおいしい

ssb

8:58 AM

I have diagnosed myself with this

Supertaster

A supertaster is a person who experiences the sense of taste with far greater intensity than average. Some 35% of women and 15% of men are supertasters. Supertasters are more likely to be of Asian, African, and South American descent. The cause of this heightened response is unknown, although it is thought to be related to the presence of the TAS2R38 gene, the ability to taste PROP and PTC, and at least in part, due to an increased number of fungiform papillae. Any evolutionary advantage to supertasting is unclear. In some environments, heightened taste response, particularly to bitterness, would...

Choko

にがうりは無理

ssb

I HATE grapefruit

Choko

へえ

Anonymous

I like lots of fruits!

Anonymous

My favorite is pear. Cucumber is good, too!

Choko

8:59 AM