Japanese Language

Anonymous

12:11 AM

I don't know. You've got some people giving answers like "well, this sounds good to me, but this doesn't", which is fine

Anonymous

Then you've got other people who give answers in technical terms, most of whom don't know what those technical terms mean, so the answers end up being misleading, false, or meaningless

Anonymous

Then you've got people who give answers in technical terms but do know what they mean

Anonymous

There's sort of an assortment of answerers with different styles

Anonymous

Generally L2 English speakers know more grammar than L1 English speakers

Anonymous

So sometimes, using technical terms is helpful for them in a way it wouldn't be for native speakers

Earthliŋ

12:13 AM

I think I fall under case (2)

=)

ogicu8abruok

haha, well, that's true, i didn't learn what an object was until i started taking french

Anonymous

To be honest, I don't know what to think. I post on ELL sometimes.

Anonymous

Are my answers helpful? Maybe, maybe not...

Anonymous

I'm probably one of those people whose answers you think are scaring people off :-)

Anonymous

So, um, d'oh!

ogicu8abruok

12:19 AM

i mean some of the questions are written very well and the person seems to have a high level of english

but there are questions written in broken english, and i feel like people should use simpler language when answering those questions

Earthliŋ

Which is correct:
What does it mean if you do this as opposed to using Katakana?
What does it mean if you do this as opposed to use Katakana?

?

Anonymous

using

Earthliŋ

セーフ

Anonymous

Hehe!

Earthliŋ

OK, thanks. Somebody improved a post, but I thought it should be "using".

But I don't know whether s/he is a native speaker of English...

Anonymous

12:30 AM

A native speaker of English probably wouldn't make that particular error, but you never know

Anonymous

Oh, do you mean the improver?

Earthliŋ

yes

Anonymous

I think virmaior is, so I think they just missed that detail

Earthliŋ

It had neither

but the improver added in "use" where I thought it should be "using"...

anyway, thank you

I think I'm in a high percentile of L2 English speakers, but I don't know how my grammar compares to L1 speakers.

For example, I would have never thought "didn't used to" would be considered correct by anyone...

Anonymous

Well, that depends on what you mean by "correct"

Anonymous

12:38 AM

It's probably not considered standard by most people, but lots of people say it

Anonymous

I'm sure not everyone does

Earthliŋ

No, it depends on what other people mean by "correct".

Anonymous

That was a general you

Earthliŋ

=)

Anonymous

I say it.

Anonymous

12:39 AM

But I think "never used to" is a nice way to avoid the problem :-)

ssb

I didn't used to say it, but now..

Anonymous

Pullum says the form exists for most but perhaps not all speakers

ogicu8abruok

i want to know an example of something like that in japanese

ssb

like what, specifically?

ogicu8abruok

12:56 AM

something that there's no good way to say it

Anonymous

Well, there's nothing really wrong with didn't used to

Anonymous

And there is another fine way to say it: never used to

Anonymous

@ogicu8abruok Probably more nonstandard is your gapless relative there :-)

Anonymous

> Something that [ ~~which~~ there's no good way to say it ] .

Anonymous

Standardly, there'd be a gap where you put the pronoun it:

Anonymous

1:07 AM

> Something that [ ~~which~~ there's no good way to say __ ] .

Anonymous

It's a resumptive pronoun.

Anonymous

Oops, this isn't ELL, I can't scare you off with jargon . . .

ssb

how does "something where there's no good way to say it" break down

that feels fine to me

Anonymous

In non-figurative usage, where typically represents an adjunct of place

Anonymous

> You can relax there.

Anonymous

1:13 AM

> You can relax where?

Anonymous

> a place [ where you can relax ___ ]

Anonymous

Here, it's less clear because the place is figurative and not literal

Anonymous

(Where isn't always used with literal places)

Anonymous

Let's see...

Anonymous

CGEL suggests that sometimes you might chooses instead to treat where as a preposition taking a content clause as a complement

Anonymous

1:19 AM

I think that might work better in this case because I'm having trouble coming up with a non-relativized source

Anonymous

Since it's not actually a place, I can't seem to insert a locative adjunct and have it make sense

Anonymous

I think I'll go with that analysis for your sentence, but don't hold me to it :-)

ogicu8abruok

how about the use of "where" in math

like the first sentence in "the volume" section of this page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_of_an_n-ball

Anonymous

Yeah, I don't think that's relative either

Anonymous

By the way, some stuff called "prepositions" in CGEL are called adverbs instead in traditional grammar

Anonymous

1:23 AM

Ooh, grammaring is hard.

ogicu8abruok

my dad'll start sentences with "the thing is is..." or "the problem was is..."

Anonymous

Ah, extris constructions! ;-) Also called isis

Anonymous

Extris is more general (extra is), since it covers stuff like was is and is is is

ogicu8abruok

what in the world is "is is is"?

Anonymous

stanford.edu/~zwicky/SemFest07.out.pdf

Anonymous

1:29 AM

People sometimes insert two extra "is"s

Anonymous

Not very often.

Anonymous

But it's probably related to inserting one extra is :-)

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3361

Anonymous

Click example 5 :-)

Anonymous

I expect the prosodic boundary between the two rather than before the first one

Anonymous

1:33 AM

Like "The thing is, is that..."

Anonymous

Oh! This is a nice page microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/double

Anonymous

Language is funny :-)

ssb

is that a separate issue from using is to end a phrase like

What the problem is is we have too many spiders

Anonymous

I think that's the same thing

Anonymous

Except that it extends beyond situations where you can explain it as being grammatical because [ what the problem is ] is a noun phrase

Anonymous

1:37 AM

Maybe it started with phrases like that and was generalized so is is started appearing in other contexts :-)

ssb

that's what it seems like it might be based on those examples

like people putting themselves into that construction when they aren't really

Anonymous

I remember reading speculation along those lines before, but my memory of this subject is pretty vague

ogicu8abruok

that's what i think it is

Anonymous

Seems reasonable to me :-)

ogicu8abruok

speaking of resumptive pronouns,

phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1168

"install files for random programs you only used once and now have no idea what they do"

that one's sort of a forced resumptive pronoun

Anonymous

1:51 AM

I could bring the topic back to Japanese syntax

Anonymous

> うちの学科のどの学生が何について研究しているか三人ぐらいしか知らない
> "For only three or so of our students, I know what they're working on"

Anonymous

I like the noun phrase immediately after the embedded question

Anonymous

> [ うちの学科のどの学生が何について研究しているか ] 三人ぐらいしか知らない

Anonymous

> 警察は [ 誰が宝石を奪ったか ] その犯人を知っている
> "The police know who stole the jewels"

Anonymous

2:11 AM

How is this question any better than the ones that get closed? — Tokyo Nagoya 31 mins ago

Anonymous

-1

Q: Need to decrypt kanji (image inside)

What is this kanji? I do not have a better quality image.

kanji

Anonymous

Should we start closing "Halp I can't read this kanji" questions with the translation reason? With another reason?

Anonymous

Well, I closed it for now. People can provide feedback or vote to reopen or whatnot...

Earthliŋ

With some questions, the asker can do more to find an answer. But here, the most sensible answer would be "learn all 常用漢字, find out that this one isn't among them, and then learn another few thousand 漢字, and then you can answer your question by yourself".

Anonymous

Do you think it would be impossible to look it up if you couldn't recognize it?

Earthliŋ

2:17 AM

You can't even discern the radicals...

I don't know how I would have looked it up (and I didn't recognize it either).

I think the question is not particularly good, but it couldn't be any better...

(other than providing context)

ogicu8abruok

could you close it on the basis that it doesn't help any future visitors?

Earthliŋ

Hm... But then the question with the postcard from Manchuria should be closed, too, but everyone seemed to agree that we want questions like that here...

Except for one member, who just noted it will probably be closed soon.

ssb

2:36 AM

I think that kanji question was borderline safe because it went beyond the normal realm of just saying "what does this mean"

it was an obfuscated and generally unreadable image that required some degree of intuition that the asker didn't have

Anonymous

I think sometimes it helps to take into account "Does this add value to the site?"

Anonymous

The close reasons are mainly there because we decided that most of the time they don't really add value to the site (at least not the site we want to make)

Anonymous

So if the community decides not to close a question, even though they could, because it has value... I think that's okay

Anonymous

@ssb Well, if you think I made the wrong decision, you can vote to reopen

Anonymous

2:53 AM

I think 疲れたです is ungrammatical in Standard Japanese

Anonymous

Isn't there usually an assumption when you're teaching a beginner that you're teaching them about the standard language?

Anonymous

I mean, besides the way in which you can add です to anything by treating it as a nominal (like 「疲れた」です)

Anonymous

Or 「疲れた」ですって

Earthliŋ

3:12 AM

@snailboat I agree. I just have seen some learners complain about being told "you can't say that" when you can...

And I don't want to do the same to other learners, but I think there's a limit.

Some users here are very strict on answers (dainichi not necessarily being one of them), regarding teaching absolute beginners. Teaching beginners, I'm intentionally sometimes very simplistic, hoping it will be reasonably clear to them...

But then, Japanese is simple, but not that simple...

Anonymous

No natural language is really simple :-(

Earthliŋ

Yeah, but you can get a very good approximation with simple structure

Anonymous

:-)

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

> だいじょばない

Earthliŋ

3:21 AM

Nice

Anonymous

I wonder if they shortened the vowel for the same reason コピー + る　＝　コピる and グーグル　→　ググる

Earthliŋ

"same reason"?

Anonymous

Well, you could speculate on what that reason is

Anonymous

I assume it's because the class of verbs in Japanese is a set of native words, and verbing something nativizes it

Earthliŋ

how would you pronounce グーグった?

@snailboat Yes, that makes sense

Anonymous

3:24 AM

And native Japanese vocabulary doesn't generally have long vowels except by sound changes / intervocalic consonant loss

Anonymous

Like how the お in とおい used to be ほ

Anonymous

But I'm just assuming

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Is this a trick question? :-)

Earthliŋ

It might be, I don't know

Anonymous

Native Japanese verbs also don't begin with /g/

Anonymous

3:26 AM

So my explanation has some holes in it... :-)

Anonymous

(So you can tell for example ござる is really from 御座 + あり or whatever the precise derivation is)

Earthliŋ

I don't know whether it should have a high pitch on the first グ or the second

Anonymous

I honestly have no idea

Earthliŋ

I think it's unpronounceable

Anonymous

But it seems long vowels, for whatever reason, do generally get shortened when words are verbed

Earthliŋ

3:28 AM

unpronouncible I mean =)

Anonymous

Hehe

Earthliŋ

That looks quite cool, actually

I have to go

Anonymous

See you!

Earthliŋ

See you

jkerian

4:14 AM

@snailboat My bad... didn't realize I needed to ><

I need to sleep for... most of golden week or something

Anonymous

@jkerian Yay, thank you!

Anonymous

0

Q: Source-error tag cleanup: should we close any of these old questions?

Right now, it looks like we're going to destroy the source-error tag. This tag was the pet project of one high reputation user who described its purpose this way: Voting to closing is fine. I also tried that in the past. But five votes are required, and as I wrote in the description of the ...

discussion featured tags

Anonymous

I was waiting to post this until we got the close reason ready :-)

Szymon

I'm joining your source-error closing party :)

Anonymous

Hooray! But it's a review party. We may not need to close anything :-)

Anonymous

4:23 AM

Once we've reviewed the source-error questions, we can destroy the tag

Szymon

Yes, sir! Of course, I'm aware of how it works :)

ssb

yes ma'am

Szymon

I've got a question. I've seen a great Resources for learning Japanese post in faq. Would it be ok for me to add my 2 Android apps in there or is it too much of self-promotion?

@snailboat Are we just voting to close now? Some questions are already closed. What about retagging?

Anonymous

@Szymon Oh! Good point--shsould I remove the ones that are already closed from the list?

Anonymous

It didn't occur to me to do that

Anonymous

4:32 AM

Well, I can segment them off and say "Already closed"

Szymon

The latter seems good.

Anonymous

And yes, I am not a sir :-)

Szymon

Ooops, I'm very sorry.

Anonymous

I see three that are closed

Szymon

Shouldn't have assumed you were, my bad.

Anonymous

4:35 AM

Hehe, don't worry about it

ssb

I feel like we could also use an off topic close reason for "Not actually about Japanese"

Szymon

That's true, looking at some of those questions

Anonymous

I put them at the end of the list

Anonymous

@ssb You can use a custom reason for that. Just type "not about the Japanese Language"

Anonymous

The actual default off-topic close reason, used when users didn't agree on the reason is:

Anonymous

4:39 AM

> This question does not appear to be about the Japanese language within the scope defined in the help center.

Anonymous

So you can use that as your reason, if you like.

Anonymous

@Szymon Oh, to answer your other question: Shog9 will destroy the tag when we're done reviewing, so there's no need to manually remove it from individual questions

ssb

I'm not sure why some of these questions have source error tags

Szymon

Oh, great

Anonymous

I added that as a note to the meta question

Anonymous

4:43 AM

Hello, @Chocolate! Do you mind if I ask you a question? :-)

Chocolate

@snailboat おもしろ～い

@snailboat おお？

Anonymous

@Chocolate Two people have said now that 「疲れたです」 is pretty common

Anonymous

I don't feel like it's very common. What do you think? Do you hear things like that very often?

Chocolate

あまり、日常では使わないですけど・・・冗談でならいう人いるのかな。

う～ん・・

おお・・・ぐぐったら、

結構ありますねえ

あ、でもページめくって言ったら

186件しかなかったわ

Anonymous

@Chocolate Oh, those Google numbers aren't reliable, huh... I searched on BCCWJ and I only found results like 疲れたですって which I think is different

Anonymous

4:53 AM

Oh, only one result :-)

Anonymous

> トウィーニー（彼女を見つめて）疲れてはいませんか？メアリー嬢疲れたですって！

Anonymous

Hehe

Chocolate

ああ～メアリー嬢が「つかれた」って言ってる、って感じね

ssb

Are we going to say that Chinese words mistaken for Japanese fall into the misreading category?

Anonymous

@ssb Umm... If you don't think it fits, you can type in a custom reason

Anonymous

4:56 AM

"This question appears to be about Chinese, not Japanese"

Szymon

I think it does fit. It's a kind of misreading.

Anonymous

@Chocolate I think Tokyo Nagoya wrote an answer recently about 〜だと

Anonymous

I always kind of wondered about だと／ですと

Anonymous

Or って

Anonymous

It seems like the だ is outside the quote

Anonymous

4:58 AM

(I have to stop typing "hehe" as a nervous habit :-)

Chocolate

◎「疲れた」と言った　×「疲れた」だと言った
◎「疲れた」だと？　×「疲れた」と？
ややこしいな

◎「バカだ」と言った
◎「バカだ」だと？　←　「だ」×2

ややこしいな

Szymon

I'm sorry to repeat my question but I guess it got lost before: I've seen a nice "Resources for learning Japanese" post in faq. Would it be ok for me to add my 2 Android apps in there or is it too much of self-promotion? Don't want to anything inappropriate...

Chocolate

でも「バカとはなんだ！」とも言うし

Anonymous

@Szymon I think you can add stuff

Szymon

Ok, thanks

Anonymous

5:05 AM

Some other members here have added stuff they worked on. One of the moderators here, Dave, runs a website called KanjiBox

Anonymous

Added KanjiBox (online website and iOS app)... Full disclaimer: I am the author of both... Feel free to edit my entries if you feel they lack objectivity. — Dave ♦ Apr 20 '12 at 6:53

Anonymous

Added Zanzou (online website). Full disclaimer: I made the website for my CS degree thesis. If you feel it's not supposed to be listed there, feel free to edit it out. — pootzko Sep 3 '12 at 11:46

Anonymous

Just leave a comment on that comment pile to satisfy the self-promotion requirement, I guess...? I don't know if it's really necessary

Chocolate

@snailboat 「だとばかり思っていた」の質問のことかな

Anonymous

@Chocolate Oh, was that what it was? I should go find it again

Anonymous

5:06 AM

7

A: Usage (correctness) of だと after verbs

Your confusion appears to come from the fact that there are two different 「だと」's. 1) When 「だと」 is used as the colloquial form of 「であると」, only nouns can directly precede it. Here, the na-adjective stems are naturally included as well. 「[花子]{はなこ}さんはとてもきれいだと[聞]{き}いている。」 = "I hear that Hanako i...

Anonymous

This is the one I was thinking of

Anonymous

> 「なんでもする」だと？

Szymon

5:18 AM

Got lost, don't know which questions I already reviewed...

Anonymous

Earlier I was trying to figure out if か is a nominalizer. I know you can use embedded questions with か as nominal:
> [ どの学生を推薦すべきか ] が話し合われた。
> 警察は [ 誰が犯行現場にいたか ] を調べている。
And I think this is okay too, without か:
> [ 行く行かない ] を決めます

Anonymous

How many other ways can you form embedded questions?

Chocolate

@snailboat ああ、これでしたか

読んでませんでした、これ。今初めて読みました

突っ込みどころ満載な・・・また「花子さん」が登場

「小指よこせ」って、ヤクザやん

jkerian

7:21 AM

bah... such simple things to say... why can I not say them anywhere near speed :/

「そこを左折すると」 was todays oddly difficult thing to say...

two many "s" sounds packed together, with just enough inconsistency to trip me up

gibbon

7:39 AM

Just hiss like a snake.. they'll get the gist

jkerian

7:50 AM

that doesn't seem to work as well as you'd expect

Chocolate

10:17 AM

「左折させてください」って言ってみましょう

razorramon

2:30 PM

Hello.

I'm a little bit behind with grammar, there are a few constructions I'm not familiar with, really. So if I made a list, could someone help me with just meanings?

Earthliŋ

How long is the list going to be?

Anonymous

6:31 PM

0

Q: The meaning of 権利を掛ける

I just don't understand how the verb applies to the noun. What are the possible meanings of 権利を掛ける？