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Anonymous
12:03 AM
Earlier I wrote [çi̥to↓bito] in a comment, but I'm not sure that I wrote that quite the right way
 
Anonymous
I wrote [] which indicates a phonetic transcription. So I wondered if I should indicate the non-phonemic upstep after ひ
 
Anonymous
But since the first vowel is devoiced it doesn't really have a pitch phonetically
 
Anonymous
So I thought I'd just mark the downstep
 
Anonymous
I guess I should go look it up!
 
1:17 AM
I really don't like notating upsteps at all. I don't think they actually exist. This is why I dislike the LH notation.
 
Anonymous
They exist.
 
Anonymous
They don't exist phonemically.
 
Anonymous
But they occur sometimes phonetically.
 
Anonymous
They're non-contrastive and largely predictable, though not all speakers always insert them
 
Anonymous
So they're not really properties of words.
 
Anonymous
1:19 AM
And they don't belong in phonemic transcriptions.
 
Anonymous
Just downsteps.
 
Anonymous
But you know, I think I agree with you about notating upsteps in phonetic transcriptions.
 
Anonymous
You always have the option of how much detail you want to show in phonetic transcriptions, and there's no need to indicate upsteps.
 
Anonymous
I'm going to start indicating downsteps with U+2193 DOWNWARDS ARROW ↓ instead of U+A71C MODIFIER LETTER RAISED DOWN ARROW ꜜ
 
Anonymous
 
Anonymous
1:26 AM
Wikipedia uses U+A71C
 
Anonymous
And I'll use U+2039 ‹ and U+203A › from now on for indicating written symbols
 
I always just copy it from Wikipedia, so I guess I'll continue to use U+A71C :P
 
Anonymous
Yeah, apparently that one doesn't render for everyone
 
Anonymous
U+2193 is easier for me anyway since I can just type やじるし and convert it
 
Even with the newfangled //// and [[]]?
 
Anonymous
1:33 AM
@DariusJahandarie I remember some discussion about ではない versus でない in one of the two 日本語文法ホンドブック volumes. I'll look it up again later
 
Oh, thank you!
 
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie I don't have a set of tests prepared to answer that question
 
Oh sure, I was just probing to see if you already had evidence to the contrary (i.e., the "apparently" was referring to someone saying they couldn't see it when you had used the IPA fontset).
 
Anonymous
I had evidence at hand before but it's faded from my memory so now I can't be specific about what's true or not
 
Man, sometimes I see people with the worst English giving corrections on lang-8...
Really makes me wonder about the quality of Japanese corrections.
 
1:48 AM
@snailboat thanks, that makes sense
@DariusJahandarie yeah, I've seen English learners offering wrong corrections on other English learners' stuff
 
Anonymous
I've seen native speakers offering incorrections on English learners' stuff, too
 
Anonymous
And lots of incorrect answers on ELL written by native speakers
 
Anonymous
For that matter, on English.SE, too
 
Anonymous
But native speakers are usually pretty good when they stick to coming up with what sounds natural
 
Anonymous
Native speakers tend to have a hard time analyzing things grammatically
 
Anonymous
2:02 AM
(To be fair, so do non-native speakers :-)
 
Anonymous
2:18 AM
Is it clear what this question is asking?
 
Anonymous
0
Q: Equivalent of "That said, Carthage must be destroyed" in Japanese

mp8"Ceterum censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam," the famous phrase with which Cato the Elder used to finish all of his speeches, no matter how unrelated the topic was. It was probably an effective strategy - as another well-known political figure put it, "Repeat the most ridiculous thing a thousand t...

 
Anonymous
No one understands the phrase as stated―at least, no one's come forth and said they understand the phrase the same way.
 
Anonymous
But is it clear what they want to know about Japanese, regardless?
 
ssb
4:44 AM
I think that question explains the phrase well enough that, even if we aren't familiar with the English idiom, the gist of what (s)he's trying to translate can still be understood
 
5:32 AM
I think the question is comprehensible ... but ...
 
Anonymous
Well, if it doesn't eventually get upvoted or answered, the system will delete it
 
Anonymous
I haven't often seen comments at +9 on Japanese.SE! :-)
 
Anonymous
Ah, 37 comments at +9 or higher!
 
12:58 PM
Sometimes I learn the proper pronunciation of names indirectly via Japanese
Seeing エルドアン made me go and look up the proper pronunciation of Erdogan
Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed
 
1:40 PM
All of IUnknown's questions are frustratingly low-quality, and I don't know what to do about it.
 
ssb
2:02 PM
imo gentle encouragement and advice on how to make better questions is all that's necessary
 
2:29 PM
@snailboat U+A71C was added to Unicode 5.1.0 in March 2008, so I think the font support for it isn't going to be 100% complete for it
if you look at fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2193/fontsupport.htm vs fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/a71c/fontsupport.htm Arial Unicode MS and Lucida Sans Unicode (which are fonts commonly used for IPA) don't seem to have U+A71C but do have U+2193
recent versions of Windows should come with fonts for U+A71C like Segoe UI, but I doubt earlier versions would have it
about the only real solution to this would be to use web fonts
and while I'm on the IPA subject, I think there should be another syntax like [//] or something which displays in an IPA font but doesn't display text in // or []
maybe I should start making changes like this on github for now, and submit them when they accumulate so I don't annoy the Stack Exchange people too much, I dunno
hmm actually Gentium for example seems to have a "Gentium Basic" for use as a web font but is missing many IPA glyphs to keep the size down, to get full IPA in a reasonable size it might be necessary to split it into multiple fonts, I don't know if doing that would have IPA rendering issues or not
 
 
5 hours later…
Anonymous
8:03 PM
Can もう一度 contract to もういっちょ?
 
8:26 PM
It seems like it according to search results, but I've never heard it. Maybe it's from a dialect?
 
Anonymous
9:24 PM
It's interesting because it seems to fit into the class of /tVd/ → /tt/ contractions (which generally occurs at morpheme boundaries), like んあてことだ → なんてこった
 
Anonymous
But the first /t/ is palatalized
 
Anonymous
So it seem you end up with いっちょ instead of いっと
 
9:54 PM
Okay, I don't know if (1) this is some crazy coincidence, (2) we're watching the same thing, or (3) it's really common and I just never noticed it, but I just heard もういっちょ.
(I just heard it in an episode of Sword Art Online.)
 
10:09 PM
@snailboat Wouldn't なんてこっちゃ be the more relevant contraction?
 
11:05 PM
althack.org/denai-analysis.html -- I should really get whatever access that broccoli forest has, it is so nice having easy-to-parse results.
 
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie Good question. I don't know. But I think the こった sort of contraction is more common than the こっちゃ sort.
 
(And more importantly, I guess, full results.)
 
Anonymous
I was trying to figure out if I could account for them generally
 
Anonymous
Need more data :-)
 
Anonymous
11:24 PM
Martin lists こっちゃ as a contraction of ことでは/ことじゃ
 
interesting - I've been wondering where the コッタイ in ナンテコッタイ comes from, I wonder if the ~イ is some kind of accent or something
 
Anonymous
@cypher I assumed it was a reduced form of よ (when you remove the vowel after the /y/ it sounds like い) but I haven't looked it up
 
Anonymous
So I could well be wrong :-)
 

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