Japanese Language

ちょこれーと

12:12 AM

@TokyoNagoya 早起きですねええ

Tokyo Nagoya

いやマジで。だから読み専だったころ、変わったサイトだなと思ってた。丸写しでもめっちゃ評価される可能性が高いから。他のサイトなら潰されるタイプのやつがむっちゃ点数‌稼ぎできるようになってる。

早寝早起きだよ。病院みたいな生活・・

Anonymous

4:09 AM

English has something that Huddleston & Pullum call "covertly negative lexical items" in CGEL

Anonymous

That is, lexical items that take clausal complements, in which they license negative polarity items, even though there's no explicit negative or interrogative marker

Anonymous

This came up not too long ago on ELL

Anonymous

They put them into six categories: 1. failure, avoidance, and omission; 2. prevention and prohibition; 3. denial; 4. doubt; 5. counter-expectation; and 6. unfavorable evaluation

Anonymous

They were discussed before CGEL was written, where they had different names

Anonymous

So they're a fairly well known phenomenon. For example, the negative polarity item at all usually only appears in negative clauses, or in questions:

Anonymous

4:13 AM

"I don't like beef at all." (Negative)

Anonymous

"Have you cleaned anything at all?" (Interrogative)

Anonymous

The idea being that NPIs are incompatible with affirmative contexts, not that they require negative contexts

Anonymous

A covertly negative lexical item would be like the verb "doubt" or "forbid"

Anonymous

"I doubt he'll do well at all." (The presence of "doubt" licenses "at all" in the clausal complement)

Anonymous

I wonder if there's anything like this in Japanese

Darius Jahandarie

4:21 AM

"I doubt he'll do well at all." is something I accept but not something I'd produce, interestingly

Hmm, I would produce "I doubt he'll finish anything at all" though, I think.

Anonymous

Man, non-native speakers ask tough questions.

Anonymous

Someone asked why "here you are" means "I'm giving this to you"

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie I was thinking about something we talked about a little while ago

Anonymous

I think the reason I came up with the wrong answer re: 投げない + は　→　投げはない

Anonymous

Is because I forgot the idea of su-support, adding する to support the affix -ない

Anonymous

4:27 AM

投げない →　投げはしない

Anonymous

Do you like that any better?

ssb

4:51 AM

i'm sorry to change the subject but I was just asked something

"the girl who talked to you yesterday [is/was] my sister"

which one is correct?

i feel like both are right but with different nuance

@snailboat do you have an interpretation for this one?

Darius Jahandarie

@snailboat Yeah, I do like that

Anonymous

@ssb She was your sister yesterday, and she still is

Anonymous

So it doesn't really matter, since the use of the past tense is to indicate past time

Anonymous

and doesn't change the truth conditions

ssb

so would it be wrong to ask the question "Who was the person who talked to me yesterday?"

"That was my sister"

Anonymous

5:04 AM

I think it's fine, although my preference is to use a that-relative to avoid repeating who

ssb

ah yeah well repetitive who notwithstanding

Anonymous

Tense is relatively flexible in English

Anonymous

If you want to talk about the nuance, well, I think there's a difference, but not a relevant difference

Anonymous

But since there is one, you could come up with a context that makes the difference relevant

Anonymous

"The girl who talked to you yesterday was my sister, [but now she is dead / she has retroactively become an alien unrelated to me by blood]"

ssb

5:07 AM

but see I think if it's in the context of asking the question "Who was the girl who talked to me yesterday?" it doesn't really feel like it's implying that the girl is no longer that person

Anonymous

Yeah, it's not. In most cases, there is no contrast made

ssb

ok right, just wanted a confirmation of my instincts before i tell this person definitively one way or another!

Anonymous

I think you can come up with a lot of cases in English where usually no distinction is made, but it's possible (perhaps under very rare circumstances) to draw one

Anonymous

And this seems like one of those cases to me

Anonymous

5:59 AM

Hmm...

ちょこれーと

「大切な」って、「大事な」より、ちょっと女性っぽくない？

Anonymous

I don't understand user54609's reply to my comment (here)...

Anonymous

@ちょこれーと Really?

ちょこれーと

なんか、優しいていうか・・

Anonymous

Do you think so?

Anonymous

6:00 AM

Oh! The reply went away

ちょこれーと

事務的・フォーマルでなく、口語的だからかもしれないけど

消えたん？

Anonymous

I guess they deleted it . . . never mind!

ちょこれーと

読まなかったわ～

このチャットで一回だけsawaさんと話したんだけど、「うそをつけ！」「ばかを言え！」って、なんで「うそつくな！」「ばかを言うな！」って意味で使うんでしょうか、っ‌て話したのよ

これはなぞのままだわ

Anonymous

I found this detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q108713300

ちょこれーと

いろいろググって読んだけど、「なるほど」と思うような答えは見つからなかった

おっと

Anonymous

6:06 AM

I guess you probably already read this :-)

ちょこれーと

これは読んだの覚えてる→　home.alc.co.jp/db/owa/jpn_npa?stage=2&sn=113

でもこれも「すっきり！」しなかった・・・

うそつけ、と　ばかいえ　くらいしかないもんね

「たべろ！」とか「ねろ！」とかないし

「しゃべれ！」とかも

Anonymous

books.google.com/…

Anonymous

Pages 232-233 talk about these idioms

Anonymous

(I haven't read this book, I just found it on Google)

ちょこれーと

そおか～英語でも　say that again! とか

pragmatics とかspeech act の世界になるんだぁ

「もう一度いってみろ！」があった

英語のsay that again!はなんとなく、「もう一度いってみろ、(そしたらひどい目にあうぞ)」

みたいな気がする

日本語もきっとそう・・

夜にでもTNのおじさんに聞こう

TNのおじさん、こわいでしょ

ふふふ

おこりんぼだもんね

@TokyoNagoya おこりんぼ！

@TokyoNagoya 健康的でいいじゃん

「東欧を覆う」って耳で聞いたら「え、なんて？」っていいそう

「連声」＞＞「れんじょう」

「声」←じょう

読めなかった！

れんせい

Anonymous

6:31 AM

@ちょこれーと My input method doesn't let me convert れんじょう to 連声, either

Anonymous

I type れん<convert>こえ<convert>

Anonymous

I forgot where I learned that word...

Anonymous

It's pretty rare, isn't it

ssb

連声

score another for google~

Anonymous

Hah!

Anonymous

6:33 AM

The dictionary included with Anthy is all sorts of inadequate

ssb

why not try that mozc one?

Anonymous

Path dependence, I guess

Anonymous

I have a sizeable custom dictionary, and it's a pain switching, and even then it doesn't sound particularly promising

Anonymous

mozc doesn't use the data gleaned from Google's searches

ssb

ah yes, you and your custom dictionaries

Anonymous

6:35 AM

So it wouldn't work as well as the Google IME on Windows

Anonymous

Can you type all the radicals out of the box? Like 鬥 or 辶・辶

Anonymous

Or 扌 or 氵

Darius Jahandarie

I like when linguists wander onto the site.

Whether their answers are correct or not, they're always interesting.

ssb

爻

typing 部首 gives me a very comprehensive list

𩙿

辶

plus all the names of them as well, interesting. I need to learn more of those

Anonymous

Can you type them by name?

Anonymous

6:41 AM

Like とうがまえ or しんにゅう／しんにょう or さんずい or てへん

ssb

yes

Anonymous

Yay

ssb

鬥

辵

辶

氵

扌

Anonymous

Ooh, you've got three forms available for しんにょう

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