Board and Card Games

5:56 AM

I'm liking these Rally abilities.

1:46 PM

I have a question about the new Awaken mechanic, but I fear it would be a duplicate of boardgames.stackexchange.com/q/25798/6692 if I tried to ask it

I don't understand why it "adds" a target to the spell. Intervening if clauses only apply to triggered abilities, so it seems to me like you would still have to choose a target even if you don't pay the awaken cost

doppelgreener

If that question doesn't answer yours, it wouldn't be a duplicate.

You just need to make that clear in asking.

Rainbolt

Does the way I worded that look clearly different to you?

Wow that was weird

Apparently if you press tab+backspace while editing, you navigate back. Then if you navigate forward again, your editor will still show the message you were editing, but it will post a new message instead of editing the previous one

diego

@Rainbolt I'm guessing that your question will be answered when we have the updated CR instead of just reminder text

Rainbolt

I'm trying to find a similar ability to base my question on

Kicker appears to be an ETB trigger

diego

Overload is kind of the opposite, you lose the target if you pay the cost

Rainbolt

1:50 PM

But anything like "If you pay [alternative cost], [effect with target]"

Oh yea, overload is a good example of the opposite

doppelgreener

@Rainbolt The explanation of Awaken itself says the target is not there unless you pay the awaken cost, but it sounds like you're asking: "Don't you have to pick a land anyway, even if you're picking the awaken cost?"

In which case yeah that's a different question.

Rainbolt

My question is "Why is the explanation true according to comp rules?". It has no rules backing, and I am looking for a rules backing

But diego pointed out that they might not exist yet

I think I will wait until either a) rules are released for awaken or b) I find a similar mechanic

Wait, are these considered modal spells?

Oh, this is just weird: Overload [cost] means “You may choose to pay [cost] rather than pay
this spell’s mana cost” and “If you chose to pay this spell’s overload cost, change its text by
replacing all instances of the word ‘target’ with the word ‘each.’”

diego

No, modal spells are ones like charms or commands that say "Choose N" with a bulleted list

Rainbolt

It's an ability that replaces the text on the card with other text. (But then that's exactly what it says in the reminder text, so I should have known that.)

doppelgreener

I'm guessing the best time to ask will be after they announce a comprehensive rules update to include Awaken.

@Rainbolt so I think (a) here is sound.

diego

1:58 PM

Awaken is probably going to end up being a self-replacement effect (CR 614.15)

Rainbolt

Self replacement effects are effects of a resolving spell or ability

But you choose targets when you cast the spell, so I think it will be more similar to how overload is worded

diego

Doh, I missed the word 'resolving' in there

Rainbolt

Well I'm glad we had this discussion anyway. Now we can see how close we were to what the rules will say, for entertainment.

doppelgreener

Hooray!

Rainbolt

After our talk yesterday, I managed to trade for all four The Great Aurora's yesterday. Didn't even have to visit more than one shop

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to fit this one into the deck though: gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/…

How do you get spell mastery on turn three consistently without being completely run over in Standard?

Errr... post rotation standard. Not current

Black Removal + Green Ramp = run out of cards
Red Burn + Green Ramp = run out of cards

diego

2:15 PM

Do you need Spell Mastery on turn 3? Or is that just a bonus for when you get to that point?

Rainbolt

Let's see... Nissa's Renewal costs 6. I want to cast it as early as possible

I guess it isn't imperative, but I think every land drop counts if you intend to play The Great Aurora, because lands are permanents

It's really just a bonus

I'm banking on Nissa's Renewal keeping me alive for an extra turn from the +7 life

And then on The Great Aurora wiping the board

Ugin is the alternative to Great Aurora as a separate board wipe

diego

I agree it would be nice to have Spell Mastery and getting lands is very useful for the deck, but it is already pretty fairly costed at 2G for its effect

Rainbolt

That's true

diego

I mean it is slightly worse than Cultivate without the Spell Mastery, but not by enough to be bad or anything

Rainbolt

So if we have three goals:
1. Ramp
2. Stay alive
3. Find Aurora or Ugin
What do you do on turn 1 and 2?

diego

2:23 PM

Current or upcoming standard?

Rainbolt

Upcoming

Ancitipate is one option

diego

What is your secondary color?

Rainbolt

I don't have one yet

I should probably stay two colors. Nissa's Renewal can find any basic, but Pilgrimage can only find forests

But I wouldn't be opposed to dropping Pilgrimage and going three colors

Also not opposed to swapping out Ugin for Ulamog, or playing a mix of both

diego

I think 2 color is probably best

Rainbolt

You know, with Eldrazi coming in the next set, I have a feeling that the best 1 and 2 drops for this deck haven't even been spoiled yet

I just had a wonderful idea

diego

2:30 PM

Oh?

Rainbolt

I'm going to get with my roommate and start speculating on cards again, but play it like the stock market. We'll put in $20, and but cards on TCGPlayer. If we do well, we'll have more money for next time

It's like gambling but we get cards out of it

diego

I think Blue would be a good secondary color, it gives you card draw/filtering, removal, plus I like Embodiment of Spring and want to see a deck run it.

Rainbolt

Ooooh. That's a good one!

I wrote that one down because I will forget it

diego

Other good turn 1 or 2 plays includes Rattleclaw Mystic and Anticipate like you mentioned

Rainbolt

Rattleclaw is the card everyone at my store (including me) keeps trying to play

If I morph on turn 3, then flip on 4, it gets me straight to.... 6!

diego

2:37 PM

With him most of the time I would ignore the fact he has morph and just play him as a dork on turn 2, after that if you have nothing better to do you can play him as a morph

Rainbolt

Claw on 2, Explosive Vegetation on 3, at 6 again

diego

Would you run creature Nissa or Frontier Siege?

Rainbolt

Frontier Siege is better than Explosive Vegetation I think

I don't know about creature nissa

It doesn't seem like she has a lot of defense in this deck for when she flips, and she might end up being exiled shortly after

diego

It depends, since the siege gives you more mana (though it can be harder to use it all) but Explosive Vegetation gives you 2 permanents

Rainbolt

But she does find a forest and provide a road block

That guy that mills five and finds a land in current standard is a really nice turn 2 roadblock

Waterseas

2:50 PM

Nissa doesn't need a lot of defense >.> Tis what's awesome about her.

So what colors are being played?

Rainbolt

Green + something. We're thinking blue for anticipate and Embodiment of Spring, but not stuck on it

The goal is Great Aurora or Ugin

Waterseas

Mmhmm, got that. Embodiment of spring probably isn't good enough; will do some looking into turn 1 plays.

What is primary win-con?

Rainbolt

I'll probably go choose Ugin over Ulamog, because Haven of the Spirit Dragon counts as Ugin number 4, 5, and 6

Or maybe 3, 4, and 5 if I only play 2 ugin

Mayeb I can get away with 4 havens in a 2 color deck. I dunno

Waterseas

Issue with ugin is it's a very easy to remove win condition.

Rainbolt

In standard? Hero's Downfall has a replacement coming in at sorcery speed, but I don't see him being removed all that easily

Waterseas

2:57 PM

Well, against a lot of decks he's going to enter and likely -4 or -5. Against red decks, this makes him an easy remove.

You could run the new Hierarch at 1

Rainbolt

It might be a decent sideboard for when I am playing first

Waterseas

Ehh, probably not worth a sideboard slot, so might be best just to not run

Rainbolt

Could run the red 1 drop that discards a land and draws 2

That also allows for some cheap burn removal for the low to the ground aggro decks

Waterseas

Honestly, feel like we just want a typical control deck, but running green also.

Bleh, I strongly dislike that Awaken question. People should NOT be answering the question until the release notes for Battle for Zendikar are out.

Rainbolt

Well, the linked article is somewhat authoritative.

We could remove the ramp shell and go for a control shell instead

Waterseas

3:13 PM

Can throw in some ramp cards. Probably the 6 drop would be fine.

Waterseas

3:50 PM

Maybe Explosive Vegetation.

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt Regarding Awaken, rule 601.2c says "A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it"

"Awaken" is an alternative cost

For reference, 601.2b is the step where you choose modes, additional and alternative costs, variable costs, etc.

Rainbolt

That rule sounds like an allowance. Like "It can do this."

murgatroid99

Yes, and this is a case where that happens

Rainbolt

Right, but by no fault of that rule

murgatroid99

I have no idea what you're saying

Rainbolt

3:59 PM

That rule just says it can happen. It doesn't say that it does happen in this case.

murgatroid99

No, the ability text says that it does happen in this case

Rainbolt

Right. So it works the way it works because the ability text (and the soon to come rules that follow it) say so. It is by no fault of the rule you quoted that it works the way it works.

murgatroid99

You can almost paste the reminder text for Awaken verbatim into the card and have it do that

OK, I think I'm failing to understand what you wanted an explanation for

Rainbolt

Maybe you missed the conversation, but I wanted a rules backing for the explanation that is already provided, found out that it hasn't been released yet, and was satiated.

murgatroid99

What I'm saying is that no extra rules are necessary to make awaken work exactly as described in the Mechanics guide

All they have to say is "Awaken is two abilities: 'You may cast this for [awaken cost]' and 'If you payed the awaken cost, also target land becomes a 0/0 creature and put 4 +1/+1 counters on it'"

That's going to be the full text of the Awaken rule, modulo phrasing

Rainbolt

4:08 PM

If the reminder text were actually on the card, I'd agree with you. But it isn't, and so there will be additional rules required.

murgatroid99

The reminder text is on the card

Rainbolt

Reminder text is functionally useless. It doesn't actually count as text on the card.

207.2a Reminder text is italicized text within parentheses that summarizes a rule that applies to that card. It usually appears on the same line as the ability it’s relevant to, but it may appear on its own line if it applies to an aspect of the card other than an ability.

It summarizes a rule that is functional, but reminder text itself is not functional.

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt Right, OK, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. What I was saying is that If you want to write the Awaken rule into a rule (702.112), all you need to do is turn the reminder text we've already seen into an actual ability

You don't need any additional rules beyond the definition of the ability

Waterseas

4:24 PM

I mean, that's the way most mechanics are. They fit into the rules as is, just potentially require a significant amount of wording if they weren't a keyword.

murgatroid99

@Waterseas Yes. I'm saying that Awaken is an example of a mechanic that does work like that

Waterseas

Out of curiosity, do you have an example of a mechanic that wouldn't have?

Rainbolt

@murgatroid99 Sorry, I misunderstood. You don't need additional rules beyond the additional rules that would be created if you turned the reminder text into an additional rule. Agreed.

murgatroid99

@Waterseas Infect

Waterseas

"Instead of dealing damage as normal, if this creature were to deal damage to a creature, instead that creature gets x -1/-1 counters, where x is this creature's power. If this creature were to deal damage to a player, instead that player gets x poison counters, where x is this creature's power."

murgatroid99

4:27 PM

But it's not a replacement effect

Damage is still dealt. It just changes the result of damage

Waterseas

True

murgatroid99

Morph

Waterseas

I think that would be functionally identical though? vNot actually sure how that wording would work with cards like Deflecting palm.

murgatroid99

@Waterseas There are things that prevent damage

Waterseas

Like Deflecting Palm

murgatroid99

4:28 PM

If the damage is replaced by Infect, you could avoid having it prevented

Waterseas

Not sure about that, because it then wouldn't deal damage?

So it would be a overwriting replacement effect, by timestamp

murgatroid99

@Waterseas That's not how it works

Waterseas

It wouldn't work with the ability to instant speed get infect though.

Why not?

murgatroid99

The ordering of relevant replacement and prevention effects is chosen by the person affected by whatever is getting replaced

Rainbolt

Ninja'd

murgatroid99

4:30 PM

Also, some things trigger on damage or replace damage. If Infect replaced damage, those would work differently

Waterseas

Ahh, 616.1

I wonder if just using the reminder text for infect as the wording of an ability would work.

Morph's reminder text probably wouldn't just work.

murgatroid99

Maybe. But there isn't really a definition of "Deals damage in the form of"

Actually, I think a better example of all this would be "Flying"

You need the keyword "Flying" for the ability to work

Waterseas

True

murgatroid99

Deathtouch also required a new "State-based action" rule to work

Extort works differently because it's a keyword ability: It doesn't affect the color identity of the card

Also, stuff like "Renown" and "Monstrosity" needed definitions of "Renowned" and "Monstrous" to work properly

Bestow modifies the state-based action for an unattached Aura

Rainbolt

Is "becomes Monstrous" not enough? Aren't there plenty of cases where a creature "becomes a frog" or something like that?

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/…

murgatroid99

4:43 PM

@Rainbolt "Frog" is in the list of creature types

Monstrous is not a creature type

Rainbolt

I see

murgatroid99

> Monstrous is a designation that has no rules meaning other than to act as a marker that the monstrosity action and other spells and abilities can identify. Only permanents can be or become monstrous. Once a permanent becomes monstrous, it stays monstrous until it leaves the battlefield. Monstrous is neither an ability nor part of the permanent’s copiable values.

There's a very similar rule for Renowned

Rainbolt

Did you know that Sand is a creature type? Lol

murgatroid99

Oh, huh. I did not know that

Rainbolt

I guess they could have just made Monstrosity turn the creature into a Giant instead

(in addition to its other types)

murgatroid99

4:47 PM

@Rainbolt But then cards that affect giants would affect it

And changing the creature type would un-monstrous it

Rainbolt

Yes, those would be two side effects. I'm sure there are more

murgatroid99

I think Wizards prefers to avoid continuous effects that don't end, because remembering them and determining how they interact can be confusing

Rainbolt

Isn't becomes monstrous a continuous effect as well?

Err, nevermind, I don't think it is

It's a rule that behaves like a continuous effects that never ends

murgatroid99

It's like something in between a continuous effect that never ends and a counter that you can't affect

But it doesn't interact with other continuous effects, which makes it a lot easier to keep track of

In most games, it's just "If the creature has +1/+1 counters, then it is monstrous"

Rainbolt

I wonder if they couldn't have used a counter instead.
"When [condition], if [object] has no [specific counter], it gains a [specific counter].

As long as [object] has a [specific counter] on it, it has [effect]."

They experimented with this in Jouryney into Nyx I think

murgatroid99

4:55 PM

Counters can be removed

Then you could, for example, repeatedly make a creature Monstrous (to get the +1/+1 counters) and then remove the Monstrous counter with Hex Parasite

diego

@Rainbolt That would be fun with Hex Parasite

Rainbolt

That would be one side effect

murgatroid99

OK, I think we can agree on this: they could have implemented Monstrosity differently in reasonable ways, but not without changing some aspect of how the ability functions in the context of the rest of the game

Rainbolt

Yes of course. My goal was to maintain the primary spirit and function of the ability while brainstorming how it might have been implemented using more existing rules

There's not really a point to it

Waterseas

6:29 PM

Actually, that control deck with Ugin and Great Aurora could easily play Oblivion Sower in it I think.

The more I think about it, the more I think Oblivion Sower might actually see play in standard.

Rainbolt

That's an interesting late-mid play

Waterseas

Can usually count on getting 1-2 lands off of it.

murgatroid99

I'm looking forward to the Ingest->Processors/Oblivion Sower decks

Rainbolt

What about Kozilek's Channeler?

Waterseas

I'm not so certain that'll happen. As things stand, I don't think Ingest is powerful enough.

Hrm... maybe. Feels so suboptimal though.

Rainbolt

6:32 PM

Channeler and Oblivion Sower both serve the purpose of keeping you alive and ramping

Waterseas

My issue is its a 4/4

If it was a 5/5, then sure

murgatroid99

@Waterseas Ingest isn't the goal, it's the fuel for processors and Oblivion Sower

Rainbolt

Meaning dies to rhino and tasigur?

Waterseas

Yep

Rainbolt

I guess then that the viability will depend on the meta

Waterseas

6:33 PM

Also dies to languish, which is huge.

Rainbolt

I don't think there's a question that Tasigur will see some play immediately after rotation, but Rhino needs a very specific color set

Waterseas

Ehh, I suspect Abzan will be still quite powerful, despite it losing some of its current early game.

Rainbolt

Any predictions on whether the colorless, sorcery speed hero's downfall will see play?

Waterseas

I think perhaps we need to see a bit more of the eldrazi

I personally think so though.

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt Which card is that?

Waterseas

6:37 PM

Titan's Presence

Drowner of Hope has some potential I think.

Rainbolt

No, not Titan's Presence

Let me find it

murgatroid99

@Waterseas That's not a sorcery. Or Hero's Downfall

Waterseas

Ruinous Path?

Tis not colorless.

Ruinous Path is the sorcery speed Hero's Downfall.

Rainbolt

Oh, I mixed Titan's and Ruinous in my head and created a new card

Waterseas

God that would be busted XD

Rainbolt

6:39 PM

A colorless Exile creature or planeswalker sorcery speed 3 drop?

Waterseas

Titan's presence is awesome imo, Ruinous Path is also pretty damn strong, I do think strong enough for standard.

Again, unfortunately, 4/4

Waterseas

7:06 PM

Wow, I'm terrible, I didn't even realize Ugin can't exile manifested planeswalkers

murgatroid99

Manifested anything, in fact

Waterseas

Oops, not manifested, flipped

Rainbolt

Bzzzt. Try again lol

murgatroid99

@Waterseas No, you can, they have color indicators

Rainbolt

(They transform)

Waterseas

7:09 PM

Nevermind. That's weird. Also still find it strange that garruk relentless is black green color identity.

murgatroid99

Actually, I'm pretty sure every double-faced card has a color indicator on the back face

Waterseas

Tis true, forgot that was a thing

Somewhat bad design in my opinion; I'm sure a lot of people didn't even notice the circle on garruk relentless, and just assumed colors by border colors.

murgatroid99

Well, Garruk Relentless is green. And the back face has both colors in the border

Waterseas

Mmhmm.

That's what I meant though

murgatroid99

I don't get it

Waterseas

7:12 PM

I assume a number of people only knew he was black because of border; not because of the tiny indicator

Even though the indicator is the reason he's black and green.

Rules-wise

murgatroid99

It seems to me that that is a case of a design helping people's expectations match reality, which is good

Rainbolt

How do you read color indicators? This one looks like a crescent moon to me.

Waterseas

No, no. I like the fact that the border colors are correct. I dislike that the indicator for color is so tiny.

Rainbolt

I'd never have guessed that a crescent moon meant "green black". Am I looking at the wrong spot?

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt yes

Waterseas

7:13 PM

@Rainbolt See what I mean? The indicator is the tiny circle in his type line.

murgatroid99

It's the thing to the left of the type line

Rainbolt

Oh!

murgatroid99

Which is half black and half green

Waterseas

Tis stupid.

murgatroid99

@Waterseas they had to put it somewhere

Rainbolt

7:14 PM

What the heck is the symbol on the top left?

Waterseas

So put it where the Crescent moon is

Rainbolt

Flavor symbol?

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt indicates that it's the back face of a card

Rainbolt

Oh, I see

Waterseas

Used to be relevant.

Rainbolt

7:15 PM

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/…

He doesn't have a crescent moon on the back face

Waterseas

'used to be'

They changed it for origins

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt They used new symbols for those

Waterseas

In comp rules I believe

Rainbolt

It almost made sense when it was like a sun and a moon.

Now it's... a symbol and another symbol

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt The back symbol is the Planeswalker symbol, so that side makes sense

@Waterseas The symbol doesn't have a rules meaning. The Comp rules mostly just mentions that it's there

Waterseas

7:17 PM

@murgatroid99 Thought it used to

murgatroid99

> Each face of a double-faced card has an icon in its upper left corner (for example, a sun or a stylized Planeswalker symbol). These icons have no effect on game play.

Waterseas

Again, thought that was a new change

murgatroid99

It used to specifically say that the symbol was a sun and moon

Waterseas

"The rules defining the sun and moon symbols have been deleted. The symbols used by the Magic Origins double-faced cards obviously aren't a sun and moon. Amusingly, one of the symbols is the Planeswalker symbol, and that has some complications of its own. So, those symbols are now just decorative and the front face of a double-faced card is defined as the one with the mana cost. Surely this fix will last forever and ever and won't need to be changed."

Used to have rules regarding them.

murgatroid99

> The sun symbol appears in the upper left corner of the front face of double-faced cards. See rule 711, "Double-Faced Cards."

> The moon symbol appears in the upper left corner of the back face of double-faced cards. See rule 711, "Double-Faced Cards."

> A double-faced card's front face is indicated by the sun symbol in its upper left corner.

> A double-faced card's back face is indicated by the moon symbol in its upper left corner.

Those were the old rules

Waterseas

7:19 PM

Mmhmm

murgatroid99

OK, I guess that's "rules meaning"

Waterseas

Given that things specify front and back face, that's how they were previously defined, by the symbol.

They changed them to be defined by mana cost

murgatroid99

I think having the color indicator in the top left corner would be too easy to mistake for a mana cost, especially with the Futureshifted cards from Future Sight

Waterseas

Hmm, possibly

murgatroid99

Also, it looks like Futureshifted cards have another symbol in the top left that indicates the card type

In completely unrelated news:

The second set of the BFZ block has been announced: Oath of the Gatewatch

Waterseas

7:28 PM

Yep

murgatroid99

You know what might be useful: a feed in this room that posts news articles from magic.wizards.com

Waterseas

Ehh, most wouldn't be useful though

Rainbolt

Some subsections would be relevant to most

murgatroid99

That's why I specifically said "news"

There have only been 5 news posts in the last 2 months, so it wouldn't exactly flood the room

I'm just trying to figure out if I can get an RSS feed of only news

Rainbolt

And we have probably linked to all five of them

Waterseas

7:32 PM

Ohhhhhh, subset called news, didn't realize that was a thing

Rainbolt

Origins release notes, updated IPG, origins update bulletin, and scry rule update are all starred in the transcript

What is the fifth one?

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/…

Feeds

murgatroid99 has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

Rainbolt

Oh, neat

murgatroid99

I think that did it

Rainbolt

7:35 PM

And now we wait to see if it worked

Waterseas

Weeks from now XD

Rainbolt

You could always subscribe to a reddit section to confirm that your methods are correct

And then unsubscribe

murgatroid99

Are there RSS feeds for subreddits?

Rainbolt

To be honest, I don't know what an RSS feed is. I have a vague understanding that I just gained from Wikipedia in the last 30 seconds.

murgatroid99

As far as I understand, it's a URL that returns a specific type of XML that contains recent updates to whatever you're subscribing to

Rainbolt

7:40 PM

I see. And the XML in this case contains the links to the things that caused the update

That makes sense

murgatroid99

If you look at the link from the feeds page, you'll see that it also contains the contents of the update, but that's probably not a requirement

Rainbolt

I wonder if that is because the feeds page actually visits those links when you need them, or because the XML contains the entire contents of the page

murgatroid99

I don't think I explained that quite right. The RSS feed I added is magic.wizards.com/rss/rss.xml?tags=News&lang=en

If you go to that page, you'll see the content

And if you "view source", you'll see that it's all there in the XML

Stack Exchange

rss: Changes Starting with Pro Tour Magic Origins

posted on June 29, 2015 by Helene Bergeot

After careful discussion with and testing by Magic R&D, and after considering feedback from the Magic community, today we present a new mulligan rule, explain the reasons for the change, and announce when and where it will go into effect. Also, after considering feedback from the community and further discussions following Pro Tour Dragons of Tarkir, we have some updates to share regar…

rss: Arena of the Planeswalkers—The Battle Begins Now

posted on July 01, 2015 by Blake Rasmussen

For months we've been teasing out bits of information about Arena of the Planeswalkers, the Magic: The Gathering strategy board game featuring the likes of Gideon, Jace, Liliana, Chandra, and Nissa. After announcing the game in October of last year, we showed off a few bits from the game in February, including some of Chandra's game pieces. And now, the game has arrived. That's right, …

rss: July 13, 2015, Banned and Restricted Announcement

posted on July 13, 2015 by Wizards of the Coast

Announcement Date: July 13, 2015 Effective Date: July 17, 2015 Magic Online Effective Date: July 22, 2015 No changes to any format. The list of all banned and restricted cards, by format, is here. Next B&R Announcement: September 28, 2015

rss: New Mulligan Rule Starting with Battle for Zendikar Prereleases

posted on August 20, 2015 by Aaron Forsythe

A few weeks ago at Pro Tour Magic Origins, a new change to the mulligan rule was introduced. Dubbed the "Vancouver Mulligan" by many, the main change to the rule was the addition of "any player whose opening hand has fewer cards than his or her starting hand size may scry 1" to the existing mulligan operation. Our goal with changing the rule was to reduce the number of games that didn't actua…

rss: Announcing Oath of the Gatewatch

posted on September 01, 2015 by Wizards of the Coast

Set Name Oath of the Gatewatch Block Set 2 of 2 in the Battle for Zendikar block Number of Cards 184 Prerelease Events January 16–17, 2016 Prerelease Format Sealed (4 Oath of the Gatewatch/2 Battle for Zendikar) Release Date January 22, 2016 Launch Weekend January 22–24, 2016 Game Day February 13–14, 2016 Magic Online Prerelease E…

Rainbolt

Whoah

We have liftoff

murgatroid99

7:51 PM

I think that worked well

There's some awkwardness in how the description shows up for some of them, and the "rss:" is kind of unnecessary, but overall I think it's good

And it only posted News articles, which is what I was going for. I wasn't sure that would work, because I had to poke at the URL a couple of times to get it to do that

Rainbolt

Okay I have a non-Magic question for the room

You have four points of data, and then Daylight Savings Time happens, and then you have another four points of data

You plot these points on a line chart, with the X axis being time and the y axis being value

Do you:
1) Plot all 8 points sequentially, such that four of the times just repeat on the axis labels
2) Plot 4 points, then backtrack for daylight savings time, then plot the next 4 points

Waterseas

So you have 4 points the day before daylight savings time, and 4 points the day after?

Rainbolt

No, same day.

Waterseas

I would just say fuck daylight savings time, since its not a universal thing.

Rainbolt

For example
10:00 UTC-0500
10:15 UTC-0500
10:30 UTC-0500
10:45 UTC-0500
10:00 UTC-0400
10:15 UTC-0400
10:30 UTC-0400
10:45 UTC-0400

Waterseas

8:06 PM

mmhmm, figured.

Actually, that makes it easier.

You would plot everything in specifically one time thing, aka, JUST "UTC-0500", or JUST "UTC-0400".

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt Or you could just show the UTC times, and make a note of when DST changed in your local timezone

And of what your local timezone is

Rainbolt

If I show the UTC times, then the graph flows nicely and there is no need to warn the user of a time zone change because there is no time zone change in UTC

Waterseas

Or just have the axis be: Time (UTC-0500).

Thus requiring no clarification of any sort.

Rainbolt

That was option 3 and I was having trouble putting words to it

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt I mean, mention the TZ and DST change if they're relevant to the data

Waterseas

8:09 PM

They would be mentioned in the writeup, not in the graph itself.

Assuming this is being used for normal graph use purposes.

Ehh, that's not true. Mmight be a dotted line splitting the graph where the DST change occurs.

Rainbolt

I don't know what normal people use graphs for, but I think this is fairly standard use

Waterseas

But still would have the axis be labeled "Time (UTC-0500)"

Rainbolt

So you suggest converted all times to local time

murg suggests converting them all to utc time

Along with notes

And my current implementation does neither of these things lol

Ain't it beautiful?

murgatroid99

@Rainbolt Above all else, I would suggest not doing that

Waterseas

Using local time or utc time doesn't really matter, as long as you convey which it is.

Rainbolt

8:12 PM

Yea, I think I need to show the offset in the timestamp as well

Waterseas

That's actually fine depending on what the graph is being used for, although the two shouldn't be connected.

Rainbolt

I actually have to ask for permission to do that

Waterseas

If its specifically an hour based thing, you could feasibly use two lines on the graph.

Rainbolt

Here's the kicker... if they aren't connected, then you can't tell which comes first.

And that actually shows itself if I remove a data point

Waterseas

Thats what color coding is for.

Rainbolt

8:13 PM

Haha. But it's the same continuous series. This piece of equipment didn't suddenly start producing a different color of values

Waterseas

This kind of thing: mathematicsdictionary.com/english/vmd/images/m/…

Rainbolt

Yea, I don't want to do that. In reality, this thing is still producing a piece of data every 15 minutes.

Waterseas

Again, its dependent on what this is being used for. Whether its being used for an over-time thing, or an hour dependent thing.

Rainbolt

It doesn't know about timezone changes or whatnot

Waterseas

If its an over-time thing, it should just be a continuous graph, if its an hour dependent thing, which it looks like from the data points, it should be a multiple line graph.

Rainbolt

8:15 PM

Option 4 is the only one I dread because it requires the most work. Show some of the points in UTC - 0500, and some of them in UTC -0400, but show the timestamps to make it clear that the labels didn't just repeat themselves

Waterseas

Dunno if that's the same as the multiple line graph, or if I'm not understanding properly

Rainbolt

The labels would change timezones as they go across the x axis

But the points would be one continuous line always moving forward

Waterseas

That is an option.

Rainbolt

Someone posted a now edited away question about who gets longest road if the player with longest is broken by a settlement and the next two in line are tied

Waterseas

Saw such

I also feel like the question should be asked in a different way, as there's a scenario that the answer doesn't cover.

Hmm, maybe not.

Rainbolt

8:32 PM

The other question asks if you retain longest road if your road suddenly drops below the required length, but it is still longer than anyone else's. Your question asks who gets longest road if your road suddenly drops below two other players who are tied for longest. I think the two questions are different. — Rainbolt 8 secs ago

Waterseas

That other catan question actually means its possible to win while having less points than someone else.

Rainbolt

8:59 PM

boardgames.stackexchange.com/posts/3460/revisions

I wasn't allowed to enter a summary for rolling it back

So I commented instead

Gah. I hate it when one answer has the FAQ, and one answer has the rules, but no answer has the FAQ and the rules.

I'm always torn between stealing from both and writing my own, or just upvoting both

doppelgreener

11:01 PM

@Rainbolt You can also ping someone who's in the list of people who edited the question.

Wizards revealed the packaging for BFZ. Among them, this beautiful face:

> Next up we have this . . . thing. It's an Eldrazi I presume, but man is that thing terrifying.

murgatroid99

11:51 PM

@doppelgreener Well, I guess that confirms that Ob Nixlis will be back in some form in this set

doppelgreener

@murgatroid99 Yeah, seems like. :D

Personally I'm pretty pscyhed for Kiora.

murgatroid99

I wonder if she'll still be Blue/Green. It seems odd to have a Green planeswalker (Nissa), a Blue planeswalker (Jace), and a Blue/Green planeswalker all in the same set

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