I don't recall all the changes, but at least two were adding space between adjacent words, and one was changing the hyphen-minus (or whatever it was) in the first line to whatever sort of dash had been used in the second line (copy-pasted it to the first line).
I've never used dropbox before. If I delete the file now from my computer (and am signed in, or sign in, to dropbox), will dropbox remove it from the Web also?
@IsaacMoses I received the files you emailed. Excellent job formatting! I know it must've been a tedius!
I honestly don't have any design improvements since the content section is formatted so nicely. I thought about adding the floral pattern on the cover page, below the text and the logo. but that effect would look the best if the doc is printed with full bleed for the cover page. but this isn't too feasible to do on personal printers so it may come out not as nice as intended.
@IsaacMoses if you(and others) have any graphic design ideas please let me know. I think the doc looks very nice and professional as it is.
We recently undeleted this question in response to requests. Undeleting didn't bump it and it's not on the front page, so I just wanted to let the folks who made those requests know that it's there now.
@SethJ I'm not aware of any special mod powers for bumping, only the usual ones (edits, answers). That's why I mentioned it here instead. As soon as anybody acts on it in a bumpable way it'll be on the front page again.
Anybody -- apparently Dropbox is blocked for me; can anybody email me the PDF? (I'll give you an address if you don't have it already.) Thanks!
@MonicaCellio Potentially. I'm getting confused, though, by the links. Are all the links to the same file with latest updates, or have different versions been uploaded, and in that case, which link do I need to download?
@SethJ It looks like this is the latest version (based on the discussion here). That includes both Word and PDF; I'd like the PDF. Thanks! (Do you need my email address? I can never remember who has it already.)
@Ali, please do not ping me in other sites' rooms. If you want to have a respectful discussion with the Mi Yodeya community, you know where to find us. If you want to continue your campaign to promote Islam and criticize Jews based on your faulty readings of our texts (and apparently even a misreading of the name of our chat room), I'm not interested.
@MonicaCellio If he had credible rep on the Islam site, I might be tempted to rebut and point out that his behavior has been most unwelcome, but since he doesn't even have credibility there I think it's better to let him founder.
@SethJ agreed. People here, and in Islam and C.SE for that matter, have explained to him repeatedly what is not welcome. Aside from the novelty of a new player, I don't think your participation will change anything. If you want to then of course feel free, but it sounds like it will just frustrate you.
@DhoweedYaAgov, could I ask you a favor? Your notion that Jews are Muslim is not anything like normative Judaism and you are arguing with people who don't know better. Would you please try to clarify that you're expressing your opinion, not an actual tenet of normative Judaism? The last thing we want is Ali coming here trying to pitch his religion because "you guys said we're all the same". I would appreciate it. Thank you.
@Caleb I didn't get that far. The fact that @Ali was not actually engaging you in debate at all, but rather setting you up as a mannequin zie could throw half-understood arguments at was annoying me enough.
@DhoweedYaAgov. Words do have different meanings in different contexts, true, but that doesn't mean you can play Humpty Dumpty and redefine words however you like. Not if you want to actually communicate, anyway.
"Ali has invited you to join Islam. See your invitations." As I've noted, you should not use Stack Exchange as a platform for proselytizing.... Oh, wait a second. That means Islam the chat room, not Islam the religion. Never mind. Anyway, stop issuing me invitations here, too, please, @Ali. You can always ping me in V'dibarta Bam if you want me.
Allah gave banei Yisroel the Torah and we follow it and we are muslims to the fullest extent. What the followers of Mohammed and the Quran say is that the "muslims" Are the followers if Mohammed and the Quran That is where disagree. That is why I say I am Muslim
i was typing on my phone and it wasnt to clear
the line should read What followes of mohammed and the quran say is that the "new" muslims are the followers of mohammed and the quran
if a mod could change that in that room that would be good
@DhoweedYaAgov If you're going to be ambiguous about language in the first place, I'd suggest doing so only when you have the tools to allow you to be as clear as possible within your deliberate ambiguity.
@DhoweedYaAgov ^^^ Demonstrably false. I object to you calling us muslims. If you insist on using your warped terminology, you should, in the interests of full honesty, be clear about what you mean each and every time you do it. Frankly, it would be easier for you to just use language the way everybody else does.
@DhoweedYaAgov I object to you calling Jews, including me, "muslims" or "Muslims", because that word has a very specific meaning in the English language and today's culture and it does not apply. Call yourself whatever you like, but please leave the rest of us out of it.
@DhoweedYaAgov I don't care what you think it means in your head. You are engaging with a troll, which is bad enough, and you are doing it in a way that reflects poorly on us. In fact, I think I'm engaging with a troll right now, so I'll stop.
@DhoweedYaAgov No, but that's what it means exclusively in English. I would guess that even in Islam today they don't think of the word to mean that whenever they use it. It's literal translation does not come into the discussion.
@DhoweedYaAgov What it means in your head, what it means to the people you're talking to, and what it means to onlookers, may be three different things. You're not talking only to yourself. Do you actually care about communication at all? If so, you should make your best effort to use words that will actually be understood.
@DhoweedYaAgov I know exactly what you're saying. You're using deliberately confusing language ("Muslim" = "someone who's submitted to God"), in a way that no one else does, in a deliberate effort to ensure that people misunderstand you, so you can then crow about how clever you are and how all these people can't follow your complicated chain of reasoning.
@DhoweedYaAgov Nope, she understands, but she disagrees. She objects to being called "Muslim" just as I would. Because its meaning in the public consciousness is not the one you ascribe to it. I do not mind being called "submitted to G-d", but "muslim" does not have that connotation in any language that I speak.
@DhoweedYaAgov Please stop assuming that we're not following; we are. We get you, we just think you're wrong.
@DhoweedYaAgov Okay. Okay. I'm going to assume that you're not trolling. I'm going to assume that you're genuinely mystified about why people are angry with you. I'm going to assume good faith. (I suspect these assumptions are invalid, but I'll try.)
The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. This does not, however, show that etymology is irrelevant in any way, nor does it attempt to prove such.
A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies,
or claiming th...
> A Muslim, also spelled Moslem, is an adherent of Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the Qur'an—which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God as revealed to prophet Muhammad—and, with lesser authority than the Qur'an, the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts, called hadith.
A Muslim, also spelled Moslem, is an adherent of Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the Qur'an—which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God as revealed to prophet Muhammad—and, with lesser authority than the Qur'an, the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts, called hadith. "Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits to God".
Muslims believe that God is eternal, transcendent, absolutely one (the doctrine of tawhid, or strict or simple monotheism), and incomparable; that he is self-sustaining, who begets not nor was begotten. Mus...
@DhoweedYaAgov Words mean whatever people use them to mean. That is how language works.
@HodofHod I got somebody to email me the draft (stupid corporate firewall) and printed it out. I review better on paper. (msh210 had a link earlier today here. @TRiG, it's a draft for review, not final yet.)
But now you mention it, I can think of more than one definition, including the name of a UK Roman Catholic magazine. (I know about this because I collect dictionaries of quotations, and one had a line that Protestant women could now take the Pill, but Catholic women must keep taking The Tablet.)
There is a published ISO standard describing .docx, but everything I've read about it says that it's badly written and absurdly long, and doesn't even fully describe the .docx format as implemented by Microsoft.
@MonicaCellio I agree: many community members working together to continuously improve each others' contributions. The apostrophe is in the right place. (Would be nice if it were a curled apostrophe, mind you.)
@MonicaCellio @msh210 @HodofHod @SethJ @TRiG (anyone else): Thanks for reviewing. I can't get to dropbox from work either. Is someone interested in implementing fixes now? If not, I can probably do it this evening.
... Note that there are a couple of places where I removed Hebrew quotations that had RTL weirdness that I didn't know how to work around. In each case, they had translations there, and the precise original language wasn't particularly at issue.
It would be nice if we could find a way to host this other than dropbox. 1) More than one employer we know of blocks it. 2) If you click on the link, you get a Dropbox landing page instead of the straight file.
@MonicaCellio Is it more consistent later in the doc than earlier? (I got more standardized in my groove as I went along.) If so, it could be fixed with some copy/paste from later to earlier
@HodofHod Yes. In the header, top-right, on all pages but the cover?
@IsaacMoses I agree. While in an ideal universe we might want to fine-tune quote/apostrophe style and TOC spacing and the like, I'd say not at the expense of time. (In a similar vein, everything I suggested today is optional, "nice to have". Any actual typos would take priority.)
@HodofHod agreed. Once on the intro page is sufficient.
@IsaacMoses yup, figured.
Didn't @Jin say that we could email the final PDF to him for non-Dropbox hosting? If worse comes to worst we can host at Dropbox immediately and move it as soon as we can, but if he's listening and can advise, that'd be great.
@MonicaCellio Host 'n move is not so bad if everyone promotes by sending around "s.tk/miyodeya". I think @jin was just going to put it up on dropbox. He said SE doesn't currently host files on their server. (Maybe he has a server he's willing to use?)
If someone with dropbox and email access can email me the latest .docx, I can make essential changes now, save to .pdf, and send the pdf back. then, that person can upload the .pdf to dropbox, and we can edit the meta post and go LIVE.
What are the glaring changes that need/really-ought to be made?
... We can also release a 98% version now, get promotion started, and just replace it with a 99.5% version later tonight.
@IsaacMoses yeah, that. There's nothing wrong (that I've seen, anyway) in the current version; there are just things we'd like to tweak.
Oh, but one thing: should there be a date in there, so that if we do this next year people will be able to tell the 5773 version from the 5774 one? Either the bottom of the intro or somewhere on the credits page would do it.
Or is the copyright notice at the bottom of the TOC sufficient?
@MonicaCellio I think maybe not. We're not going to have enough additional content in the next year to make an all-new version of the same doc, but we may want to re-promote the same doc again (unless we're promoting a bound Hagada)
... OTOH, we could put the year in now and take it out in future years if we want to re-promote it, and we might make new versions with mostly the same content, but some added/improved, etc.
OK, I'm in favor of getting the year in somewhere.
@MonicaCellio So should we just start promoting the lastest pdf uploaded and post a revision tonight? (What's the latest pdf link?)
@msh210 There's a motion on the table to link the latest pdf and start promoting s.tk/miyodeya now, then put up a revised pdf later tonight. What do you think? Do you have time to make some fixes now, before we do this?
At some point later this week, hopefully on Thursday evening, March 21, we will be very excited to present Mi Yodeya's first publication for print:
Hagada - Mi Yodeya?
Real questions and answers that spring from the Passover Seder
This hagada supplement contains a collection of select que...
> A lot of times people, after going through the Haggadah for the first time (or first time in a long time) look back at it and say, "Wow, that was actually a lot more interesting than I expected/remembered".
There should be a comma before people as well as after.