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5:38 AM
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Q: default tag text

Double AAI know there is no official transliteration scheme for questions and answers, but I noticed we are inconsistent in our tags. Consider the tags shabbat and tzitzis. Now it's true that shabbos and tzitzit both map to those as tag synonyms, but shouldn't we be consistent in choosing the default view...

 
 
12 hours later…
5:28 PM
So, did everyone do their homework and bring meforshim?
 
@HodofHod Not me; sorry. :(
Begin Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #6 - Shemot 5772
Hello, @HodofHod, @jake, @ShmuelBrill, @MichaelSandler
@jake, you usually have a good conversation-starter.
 
I don't understand something.
How was Moshe able to escape Egypt?
 
@IsaacMoses Hi.
 
Didn't they set up a magical border patrol with dogs etc.? to the extent that it says that not one slave was able to escape?
 
@ShmuelBrill He was an adopted prince, not a slave. Maybe he got to the border before news of his actions did.
 
5:33 PM
Then later on a big portion of the tribe of Efrayim ran away.
 
@ShmuelBrill Psychology was probably enough to keep regular slaves from escaping.
 
@IsaacMoses That's what I was thinking. Moshe had more power than any other jew in Egypt.
@ShmuelBrill Which shows that it was not impossible for people to escape.
@ShmuelBrill And Moshe was Egyptian for all intents and purposes. Did they not let their own people leave the land?
 
@ShmuelBrill My mind goes to the Holocaust, when surprisingly few Nazi guards were able to keep large camps in order. However, if a group of people could muster enough shared gumption, they could try revolts, as in the Warsaw Ghetto and in the partisans.
Hi, @MonicaCellio
 
@HodofHod I got mine this week.
 
@IsaacMoses though there were MANY more Anti-Semites in Poland than Jews.
 
5:38 PM
@jake Good man.
@ShmuelBrill Probably true of Egypt, too.
 
There seemed to be something close to 10 million Jews in Egypt.
 
Ugh, between being on a mobile and having weak service, my participation in this isn't working to well. My postal keep getting rejected.
 
@ShmuelBrill Maybe there were 100 million Egyptians.
 
@ShmuelBrill How do you get 10 million?
 
If there were 600,000 men 20-60, and each one probably had a wife, and a few children thrown in,
I've seen people saying that there were around 1.5-2 million Jews then
 
5:40 PM
Welcome, @Alex
 
@ShmuelBrill as far getting to the border first, Rashi says specifically that pshat is that he escaped from the executioner
 
@ShmuelBrill 2 million, maybe. But 10 million??
 
If only 1/5 made it out, then there would have been close to 10 million
 
@IsaacMoses Thanks
@HodofHod I think there's also a midrash that Hashem made the border guards deaf and blind
 
@HodofHod Once he escaped the executioner (however he did that), he could have run quickly to avoid any other encounters with the authorities.
 
5:42 PM
hence "mi sam peh l'adam"
 
@ShmuelBrill I can't see 10 million jews from the original 70 in that time span as physically possible.
 
@jake Not even if they had six babies at a time?
 
@Alex Do the math.
 
@jake I have trouble with 70 -> 2M in that timeframe, even. How literally are we to understand the numbers?
 
@Alex I doubt you'll get anyehare close to 10 million
 
5:44 PM
@IsaacMoses possibly, but it still leaves us with the original border question. @alex's answer works for that
 
@jake I'm pretty sure I've seen a writeup or someone doing the calculations, but I don't remember where.
Greetings, @YDK
 
YDK
Hey
 
If each had 60 children, after 3 generations you get around 15 million.
 
@HodofHod Not if he got there before the APB did.
 
@ShmuelBrill Pretty much what I was going to say, but you said it more concisely :)
 
5:47 PM
@ShmuelBrill 60?
 
If each pregnancy had 6 children, 10 pregnancies was 60 children
people nowadays have 10 children.
 
@IsaacMoses It's possible to postulate miraculous grouth, of course -- the midwives told Paro the women were having babies too quickly to intervene etc. It's a pretty different generational timeline from what came before, though -- almost makes you wonder if Mitzrayim is good (or Canaan bad) for fertility.
 
@ShmuelBrill So did Moshe have 5 "twins" and Aharon... etc.?
 
@jake they were Levites.
 
@jake There always must have been exceptions. תורה על הרוב תדבר.
 
5:48 PM
@IsaacMoses. Did magical border guards need apb's?
 
@Alex In this case the Torah did not "t'daber" anything.
 
YDK
Regarding Moshe being an adopted prince: What was Moshe's position in Egypt. The royal family made sure he knew of his lineage. Plus, the brawlers were not scared of his position in the kingdom. He certainly did not have immunity for killing the task-master.
 
miraculous growth didn't apply to Levites as they weren't enslaved.
 
@MonicaCellio According to the Midrash, which is where we get most of these numbers, fertility was specifically increased by God in response to the meritorious actions of the Jewish women.
 
@IsaacMoses And in response to Pharaoh's oppression - which didn't apply to the Levites.
Hence @ShmuelBrill's point.
 
5:50 PM
Was the attitude of the Jews back then one of we can leave but we are forbidden (similar to current 3 Shavuos) vs. we can't physically leave?
 
@HodofHod Your guess is as good as mine.
 
@ShmuelBrill So why weren't there 20 times less population when the Leviim were counted?
 
@jake Why 20 times less? It should be 6 times less. But the leviim were counted from an earlier age, so that might inflate their numbers.
 
@jake there were significantly less Leviim
 
@ShmuelBrill They probably couldn't conceive of the idea of leaving. It was not part of their vocabulary.
@Alex 6^n times less
 
5:51 PM
@Alex I'm just comparing the average Jews supposed 60 kids with Amram's three.
 
@IsaacMoses they new they were going to leave.
 
@IsaacMoses Not only that. What would make them think they'd be able to manage in the desert?
 
@jake some people don't have children nowadays also.
 
@YDK Rashi brings r' yehudah bar ilai who says moshe was appointed over paros whole household
 
@ShmuelBrill Not if God is boosting their fertility big time.
 
5:53 PM
@ShmuelBrill The Midrash says that he specifically refrained from having kids until Miriam convinced him to change his mind.
 
@jake But not that of the Leviim.
 
Sorry to barge in but I'm in a Starbucks and no Sefarim avaible.
 
@ShmuelBrill In a vague "olam haba" sense, most likely.
 
@HachamGabriel hello
 
@HachamGabriel hi
 
YDK
5:54 PM
@IsaacMoses, that would only explain the 3 years b/t Aharon and Moshe
 
@HachamGabriel Most of us are in the same boat.
 
@IsaacMoses Amram refrained from having kids because of Paro's decree. What was the timing -- how long after the "death to males" decree was Moshe born?
 
@YDK I don't even know that we need that to explain the gap - there's a similar one between Miriam and Aharon
 
@YDK In my Abarbanel here, I see he says that Paro knew not of Moshe's existence. It was his daughter's secret. But it seems he grew up knowing his lineage. He spent his first couple years being weaned by his birth mother, living with his family. Perhaps he remembered.
 
err, Aharon I meant
 
YDK
5:55 PM
@HachamGabriel, you should put in a request w/ the mgt.
 
@Alex Efrayim almost made it
 
YDK
@jake, so he was not known as a prince?
 
@YDK No.
Sorry to ruin the "Prince of Egypt" imagery.
 
@ShmuelBrill Through Philistia, yes. But they were a largish group of powerful warriors; smaller groups might not have even figured they'd have a chance that direction
 
Wouldn't anyone notice that Moshe was white and Pharaoh wasn't
 
YDK
5:56 PM
@jake, didn't see it, but that creates a new paradigm
 
sorry to run; have to go to a meeting
 
@ShmuelBrill I don't think there was anyone in the palace who thought that he was Pharaoh's natural grandson; they just didn't know his origin
@MonicaCellio take care
 
@jake What about the story of Moshe and the crown (when he put the burning coal into his mouth)
@Alex Egypt was a descendant of Cham
 
@Alex I'm wondering. Those that don't take that whole "valley of bones" prophecy in Yechezkel literally. Do they still believe that there did exist a group of Efraimite escapees who died in the desert?
 
How many white people were there?
 
5:59 PM
@ShmuelBrill Didn't happen.
 
@ShmuelBrill Historians say there were always groups of "Asiatics" coming in and out of Egypt (they're shown on tomb paintings and whatnot). So people might have thought Moshe is one of their children.
 
@ShmuelBrill I doubt the Egyptians were much darker than the Jews. After several generations of living in the same climate.
 
YDK
@ShmuelBrill, also, melech chadash could imply an overthrow.
 
@jake Even most of the ones who do don't necessarily associate the bones with the Ephraimites. But anyway, the core of the story comes from Divrei Hayamim, so at the very least we see from there that some Ephraimites were killed by Philistines.
 
@Alex Interesting, thanks.
 
6:01 PM
If I'm understanding this correctly, this is a discussion about how many Jews there were?
 
@HachamGabriel Among many other things.
 
YDK
Thanks y'all for the chat.
 
@YDK Thank you.
Okay: I'm wondering about the Ibn Ezra this week who says that Moshe's name was translated from Egyptian.
Abarbanel seems to really go at him for it. But what was he thinking?
 
@jake Does he mean "translated" or "transliterated"?
 
6:05 PM
@Alex translated.
What other names are translated into Hebrew in the Torah?
 
@jake If the two languages are close enough, then maybe the name might have been cognate - so a translation and a transliteration would be pretty much the same thing
 
@jake Yegar Sahaduta -> Gal'eid
(When Ya'akov parted from Lavan)
 
yosef yasaf
 
To start an additional topic: I'm curious as to why Rashi, when he wants.to clarify who dasan and aviram are, tells us "the ones who left over the mon". Why not the ones who were part of korachs group? Why clarify their identity with a story where their names are not even mentioned (the mon)? For that matter, why even tell us that it was d&a at all? What was rashi's question?
 
@IsaacMoses That's not the Torah translating, is it? I thought Yaakov actually called it galeid.
 
6:08 PM
@jake Right. Ya'akov did the translation. So, you're looking for people who were actually called "Robert" by their contemporaries, but the Torah refers to them as "Reuvein"?
 
@HodofHod Even odder is that Sifsei Chachamim uses as a prooftext for this a pasuk that does refer to Korach's rebellion!
 
@IsaacMoses Yeah. If Robert would translate to Reuven, that is.
@HachamGabriel By that you mean...
 
The other way: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… called by their Chaldean names, though they might have gone by their Hebrew names amongst friends.
 
@Alex Maybe. Seems like a coincidence, though.
 
@Alex which pasuk? The fist fight in mitzrayim? The Mon?
 
6:11 PM
@IsaacMoses Interesting find.
 
@HodofHod He says that here it says "anashim," and there it says "ohalei ha'anashim haresha'im"
 
@jake Thanks to judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/10850/… ("Everything I need to know, I learned in...")
 
@Alex. The plot thickens...
 
@IsaacMoses So true.
@Alex That's kind of a stretchy proof.
 
@jake Indeed. I do wonder, though, whether it was a slip of the pen for a verse that does indeed talk about the mon, ויותירו אנשים ממנו.
Still wouldn't explain how Rashi knows to make this gezeirah shavah, though - the word anashim is pretty common
 
6:14 PM
@Alex That's what I meant.
@Alex If we're using "anashim", we can say it was pretty much anyone we want it to be.
 
@jake True, after all, we'd then have to assume that Yehoshua picked the two of them for his army to fight against Amalek (בחר לנו אנשים)!
 
@Alex Mesora, no?
 
@Alex Dasan and Aviram mysteriously popping up all over Tanach! :)
 
So evidently Rashi must have had some source for this, but yeah, it would be nice to know where he gets it from. (I smell a new J.SE question in the offing...)
 
@Alex Is there no Midrash reference? (The Rashi at chabad.org is kind enough to supply such references.)
 
6:18 PM
@alex @jake. Perhaps its a gezeira shava from both anashim and "rasha"
 
I can't believe we got this far into the chat and no one mentioned the burning bush.
@HodofHod Interesting thought. Maybe.
 
@IsaacMoses The chumash I'm looking at doesn't have. (OK, just looked on chabad.org - it sources it to Shemos Rabbah)
@jake Still wouldn't explain the reference to the mon, though - no word "rasha" there
 
@Alex Plus, here we have only one referred to as rasha.
 
@jake OK, but if they're both "nitzim," fighting, then both of them must have been hitting each other
so Moshe's למה תכה רעך would apply to both
 
@jake "Oy lerasha - oy lishcheino."
 
6:21 PM
@Alex Not if he only said it to one of them. "Vayomer Larasha..."
 
@alex you "beat" me to that
 
@HodofHod Lehavdil :)
 
@IsaacMoses indeed :)
 
@IsaacMoses They say that you don't say "lehavdil" between one Jew and another
@jake He got there in the middle of the fight. D had already hit A, and A was getting ready to land a good punch right back, so Moshe addressed him
 
@Alex obviously @IsaacMoses was saying lehavdil to the actions.
:-D
 
6:23 PM
@Alex Really? You don't want to be muvdal from D. and A.? Ya'akov Avinu did (or at least from Korach, and kal vechomer...)
 
@Alex Maybe. But "Vayomer larasha" implies that only one was guilty.
 
@Alex Were they Jews then?
 
@IsaacMoses Someone (maybe it was R. Avigdor Miller) points out that they were great people in their own way, after all; they too had the emunah in Hashem to leave Egypt and go into the desert, and they too said "naaseh venishma"
 
@ShmuelBrill Dasan and Aviram? Of course.
 
@Alex Seriously - who's "they" and where?
 
6:24 PM
@ShmuelBrill No less than Moshe himself was then.
 
@jake before Matan Torah?
 
@IsaacMoses Dunno, it's one of those things I've always heard. Will have to find a source.
 
@Alex fine, but perhaps less than HodOfHod
 
@ShmuelBrill There were Jews before Matan Torah. Actually, depends how you define "jew".
 
@Ami! Better late than never.
 
Ami
6:25 PM
I guess so.
 
@jake For the purposes of not saying lehavdil from them.
@Ami You're the resident Jewish expert on BH, right?
 
@ShmuelBrill. Awwwwww, thanks ;)
 
Ami
@Isaac, My rep is over 2k
 
Okay, quick new topic. All that stuff in Yalkut Shimoni about Moshe's whereabouts in those 40 mysterious years. To be taken literally as historical fact?
 
@jake Because אין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות. He can't call D a rasha for something that he hadn't seen.
 
Ami
6:27 PM
I don't know if that makes me resident expert.
 
@Ami Cool. I've never been to BH.Stackexchange. I'll have to check it out sometime.
 
Ami
@Jake, it's a lot of fun.
 
@Ami I'm glad to see you here in Parasha chat then. (Would be anyway, but even more so, given your clear interest in and experience with hemeneutics.) I hope you'll consider coming to future chats.
 
11
Q: When did Avraham Avinu become Jewish

MenachemAvraham Avinu is often called "the first Jew". When did he become Jewish. Was it when: He recognized G-d? G-d spoke to him for the first time? Covenant Between The Parts? When G-d changed his name? When he had a circumcision? When Yitzchok was born? When he passed the 10th and final test? Some...

 
Ami
@IsaacMoses, thank you.
 
6:29 PM
@jake What else would it be coming for? There doesn't seem to be any obvious metaphor or lesson from it
 
@Alex Not all the lessons from metaphorical midrashim are obvious. Doesn't mean there's nothing to learn.
 
@ami what's the consensus on extra-biblical commentaries on Bh? (which always translates in my head to "baruch Hashem".)
 
End Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #6 - Shemot 5772 But please continue chatting away if you like. Next chat is in 167 hours. Register here if you want auto-notification.
 
@HodofHod BH to me means baked goods. Used to be a bakery near here called BH.
 
Ami
@HodofHod, strongly encouraged. Many top answer are sourced in classical Jewish Rishonim.
 
6:31 PM
@Ami Now I'm excited. But if I add BH to my stackexchange sites to follow, I'm afraid I'll never get anything done.
 
Ami
@jake, a very common problem.
 
@Ami That's why they made productivity.stackexchange. :)
 
@jake Of course there's what to learn from it. I just meant that it seems to be telling us an actual story.
 
@Alex Like many other midrashim that many don't take literally. (Full Disclosure: I've never actually read it. Only ever seen it quoted here and there.)
 
@ami, interesting. Perhaps ill start contributing here and there.
 
6:37 PM
@Alex I've been meaning to look into it. Maybe one of these days.
All right. Thanks everyone for the interesting chat, as usual.
 
@jake Indeed. Yeyasher kochachem!
 
7:07 PM
@Alex I see Abarbanel says "Maybe all that stuff acually happened."
 
7:19 PM
@Alex (Just back-reading now and found this post I hadn't seen.) Moshe never called anyone a rasha. The Torah does. And the Torah implies that only the one Moshe was talking to was the rasha.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:45 PM
1
Q: Weekly topic challenge 5772-13 (week of Sh'mos 5772): Korbanot

msh210This week's topic challenge is Korbanot. You're encouraged to think of and post good questions on this topic. What is it? There's a single topic that people think about during the week and come up with good questions on. The topic is set each Wednesday or so. What do I win? An Internet with m...

 
 
2 hours later…
11:23 PM
@Alex Found Rashi's midrashic source. Check it out. Seems the connection is not from "anashim", but "nitzim", which is understood as referring to their later role in Club Korach.
@Alex Also, it identifies them as being involved in several other situations, the first of which is the mon incident. So it could be that Rashi simply copied that line out of the midrash with the "they were the ones who left out the mon" line. (Maybe he had a slightly different text.)
 
11:39 PM
@Alex Also found this Malbim that claims (b'shem Philo of Alexandria) that Moshe's name connotes being pulled from the water in both Hebrew and Egyptian. Kind of like you said (except that it seems that the Torah instead of transliterating is playing with words).
 

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