There is a Hadeeth from Imam Sadiq peace be upon him that addresses the same issue. I read that some weeks ago

@owari It was asked whether those who submit to Allah/God is a Muslim, it was answered as yes of course

not exact wording though

so the question is already answered, then why continue discussing around it?

@AlUmmatمجاهد Etymological fallacy.

@TRiG deliberately? i defined the muslim means in my terms and i even had a conversation with @AlUmmatمجاهد about that and he agreed that if i wanted to use that "confusing" terminology and philosophy then it makes sense

@owari :P have you heard the indian story of the turtle and the duck?

Jews submit to God, therefore Jews are Muslims. Really? No. That's not what the word actually means in the language we're speaking.

It can be needlessly confusing to use Islam in its literal sense and in its Muhammedan sense in the same argument.

@TRiG we are speaking english using english letters to write non english words

@DhoweedYaAgov I didn't say that, I just said "ok"

in English, it's almost universally used in its Muhammedan sense.

no one cares what english says for anything because that is not the real meaning of the word

which if I say that doesn't really mean I agree on anything

@DhoweedYaAgov Yes, and in English, the word Muslim does not have that meaning.

@goldPseudo exactly. and i use it in a non mohammadean sense

@DhoweedYaAgov Well don't.

but @AlUmmatمجاهد doesnt like it being called mohammadean

@AlUmmatمجاهد you mean the turtle that was carried in air by two ducks?

so i say followers of mohammed and/or quran

if you're going to use words in manners not used by the majority of English speakers, it needs to be made clear in context.

you can't just redefine words and expect to be understood.

@TRiG like i said no one cares what english says about a word in another language

@DhoweedYaAgov because there is no such thing, whether it is mohammadean or Muhammadiyah

@AlUmmatمجاهد yes there is

@AlUmmatمجاهد even gold use it

@owari I recall they were swans, and the duck was insulting the turtle with words, and the turtle had to speak back

it refers to people who follow the words of mohammed

@TRiG "Jews submit to God" according to today Islam was only correct several centuries ago, then they rebelled against Allah when they refused to believe in Jesus and then in Muhammad peace be upon them all

@owari that is the whole deabte

@AlUmmatمجاهد then no, I have not!

i am saying that jews are still the real muslims and ali is saying not

or something like that

@DhoweedYaAgov Muslim is an English word. You're trying to pretend it isn't. You're wrong.

he is just saying none sense and not answering what i am saying

@DhoweedYaAgov then you will find the whole Islamic community on Ali's side ;)

@TRiG it isn't, it is an Arabic word

in english transliteration

@owari not in the way he debates you wont

@TRiG The word muslim (Arabic: مسلم‎, IPA: [ˈmʊslɪm]; English /ˈmʌzlɨm/, /ˈmʊzlɨm/, /ˈmʊslɨm/ or moslem /ˈmɒzləm/, /ˈmɒsləm/[19]) is the participle of the same verb of which islām is the infinitive, based on the triliteral S-L-M "to be whole, intact".[20][21] A female adherent is a muslima (Arabic: مسلمة‎). The plural form in Arabic is muslimūn (مسلمون), and its feminine equivalent is muslimāt (مسلمات). The Arabic form muslimun is the stem IV participle[22] of the triliteral S-L-M.

@owari Quite. And yet Jews themselves would certainly say they submit to God. Therefore, Jews would say they are Muslim by @DhoweedYaAgov's strange definition, but that's not how the word is used in modern English.

@TRiG that is why i gave my definition

Islam (uncountable): An Abrahamic and monotheistic religion that originated with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad; its followers are Muslim.

@TRiG even we can claim Adam is an Arabic name also used in English and other languages, that's because it has root-wise meaning in Arabic but in no other language as far as I know!

and not the MODERN ENGLISH definition

becuase thise is not a MODERN ENGLISH debate but a religious debate

...

I don't know that any major dictionary interprets Islam in its literal sense, despite its etymology.

@AlUmmatمجاهد It's a word which would be found in any modern English dictionary. It's a word which is rarely, perhaps never, written in italics to demonstrate its status as a loanword. It's an English word.

@goldPseudo the world muslim is older than the religion of islam

The etymolgy of the word, the definition of the Arabic word from which the English word was derived, is irrelevant.

@TRiG مسلم is an english word?

@DhoweedYaAgov no, because Islam was always the religion, the message all Prophets brought, but you have your belief and I have mine, and God will judge between us on teh day of Judgement

@AlUmmatمجاهد that is the entire point. I am a submitter to Allah(muslim) just as my prophets were

this is why mixing disciplines in a single argument is counterproductive. if one has to explain how "English" works, it detracts from explaining how "Islam" works.

@AlUmmatمجاهد agreed, and it's very interesting to discuss why the commends are different!

@AlUmmatمجاهد once the sect broke of judaism which we call christians but were originally jews

@goldPseudo literal != etymological. The "literal" meaning of Muslim, in the language we're actually using right now, is given as "of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam". The meaning "a person who submits" is given under "word origin and history". It does not form part of the English definition.

@DhoweedYaAgov and the followers of those Prophets, why do you think God sent Prophets? because of deviation

> A Muslim, also spelled Moslem, is an adherent of Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the Qur'an—which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God as revealed to prophet Muhammad—and, with lesser authority than the Qur'an, the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts, called hadith.

a word had to be created in order to differentiate between jews who followed the torah and jews who followed isa

@owari the commands are different because to fit the time and place, that is one reason

Sources: dictionary.com (based on the Random House Dictionary) and Wikipedia.

@AlUmmatمجاهد not always, sometimes HaShem sent prophets to end personal disputes or monatary disputes

@DhoweedYaAgov Issa taught the Torah

no he did not

@TRiG you are right also, but the words may change and evolve so that a word can be used as off-context as its real meaning had not understood carefully for years and even centuries by those who used it.

@DhoweedYaAgov like I said, you have your belief and I have mine, and God will judge between us on the day of resurrection

@TRiG you didnt answer me. is مسلم english word?

@AlUmmatمجاهد yes we can agree on that

@owari Stop it. Just stop it! The "real meaning" of the word is the meaning that is actually used by the majority of speakers. That's how language works. Etymology is not definition.

@TRiG Meh. I meant the literal meaning of "Islam" as the transliteration of the Arabic term, rather than the English word spelt exactly the same.

@AlUmmatمجاهد no exactly, Islam as is would be for all the coming days and for all places, the reason is different!

@TRiG you got yourself into a mess which you obviously didnt get

@DhoweedYaAgov Of course not. And if you'd used that from the start, you would have had a lot fewer people shouting at you.

i think you should just agree you didnt understand

@owari I didn't mean that that was the only reason

@TRiG rather than shouting people should ask questions and not assume

@TRiG not to mean to bothering you at all, so relax ;)

@AlUmmatمجاهد even not the main reason!

@owari what is it then?

@TRiG you assumed i was a troll by using a word which was in english something something w/e you said

@TRiG why assume?

@owari Meh. It makes a change to be getting into a row in this chat room instead of in my usual haunts.

@DhoweedYaAgov The duck test.

@TRiG mhmmm

aleik salami

The thing is, @DhoweedYaAgov, people were angry with you. They were upset that you were misrepresenting them. And instead of stopping to think, or considering that they might possibly have a point, or wondering whether your oh-so-clever use of language was more confusing than helpful, you immediately started shouting at them that you were more intelligent than they were and they simply weren't understanding you. And that's classic troll behaviour.

@TRiG by saying you didnt understand me i didnt mean you were dumber than me

again assuming

@TRiG i can say the same for you and all those who are mad. ignorance doesnt help anyone. like i stated before obviously you people didnt get the conversation

If you actually want to have a productive discussion, in which all parties learn something and come away feeling somewhat enlightened, you might want to use standard terminology. I've asked you this before and you've never answered: Do you actually care about communication?

and immediately jumped to a skewed concnlusion

and started shouting nonesense

@AlUmmatمجاهد for example look at this:

وَعَلَى الَّذِينَ هَادُوا حَرَّمْنَا كُلَّ ذِي ظُفُرٍ ۖ وَمِنَ الْبَقَرِ وَالْغَنَمِ حَرَّمْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ شُحُومَهُمَا إِلَّا مَا حَمَلَتْ ظُهُورُهُمَا أَوِ الْحَوَايَا أَوْ مَا اخْتَلَطَ بِعَظْمٍ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ جَزَيْنَاهُم بِبَغْيِهِمْ ۖ وَإِنَّا لَصَادِقُونَ

[6:145]

@TRiG if you jump into a conversation obviously you wont understand anything. if you wanted a heads up you shouldved asked a question instead of assume

@TRiG do you actually care bout learning?

@owari yes, but that was for a certain time, and people, now we are allowed everything except for that which is prohibited

@DhoweedYaAgov And you were assuming too. Words have different meanings in diffent contexts. (I've sait this many many times on Christianity SE, when debates about who's a "real Christian" come up. The site definition of Christianity is far broader than most of its members' personal definitions.) I'm perfectly happy with the thought that you can use the word Muslim in a non-standard fashion, and I was perfectly aware that this was what you were doing.

@TRiG how do you expect to come to class in the middle of a lecture, having missed everything before the time you came, you start assuming everything to the point that you are up too. instead of going over to the professor after class and asking bout what you missed

I was also aware (as you apparently weren't), that you were upsetting people; and that you didn't care that you were upsetting people.

@TRiG i also said that words have different meanings in different contexts therefore I GAVE THE DEFINITION TO MY CONTEXT

yet you still didnt get it

@TRiG upsetting ignorance and/or arrogance is nothing to be ashamed off

@DhoweedYaAgov I got it. I understood what you were trying to do. I also understood that it wasn't working.

@TRiG it wasnt working because the other party in the debate didnt really want to debate

he just spewed nonesense

@DhoweedYaAgov Of course. But it wasn't Ali you were upsetting. It was the onlookers. This is a public venue.

> I've asked you this before and you've never answered: Do you actually care about communication?

@TRiG when actors are being filmed for a movie on the street and they are acting out a scene which to the public venue perceives to have a different meaning than what is intended, that is not the fault of the actors and the film crew but the faults of the people passing but and assuming

they shouldve asked what is going on instead of assuming something out of context

@TRiG communication goes book ways with rules. therefore when someone is talking first listen then ask. when i am talking to ali i have ali in mind not everyone else. whoever is lurking and doesnt understand something should ask

@DhoweedYaAgov or perhaps they should have been informed not they ask

not automatically assume

@DhoweedYaAgov So you disclaim any and all responsibility for how your words are understood? You see no need to take at least reasonable care to ensure clarity?

@TRiG i clarified my words to ali

and those who were here and still didnt get it shouldve asked to clarify some more

@AlUmmatمجاهد what?

@DhoweedYaAgov Well, clarifying your words to Ali was a waste of effort.

@TRiG that is not for you to decide where my efforts go.

@DhoweedYaAgov you think that wasn't done?

@DhoweedYaAgov Fairy nuff.

@AlUmmatمجاهد what wasnt done?

@DhoweedYaAgov many have asked for you to clarify something, but what you do is worm away from the question

hope we all learned a lesson today. if you have a question go ahead and ask. dont assume lest you make the wrong assumption and cause havoc and skewed opinions for no reason

@AlUmmatمجاهد i clarified what muslim means to me

@AlUmmatمجاهد what else do you need clarified

@DhoweedYaAgov May Allah guide us all

@AlUmmatمجاهد ameen

@DhoweedYaAgov And here's another lesson: If almost everyone misunderstands you, perhaps the problem is at your end.

@TRiG like i said. i gave a clarification to my meaning of the word. if you dont understand it then ask

just because a professor in school explains something doesnt mean everyone gets it

therefore those who understand dont raise their hand for clarification but those who do, do raise there hand

@DhoweedYaAgov And if no one gets it, zie's a bad teacher.

@DhoweedYaAgov but the only difference is, that a professor won't explain the same way in the same manner in the same words twice

@TRiG mhmmm

@AlUmmatمجاهد it also would help if the person being thought, specifically ali, would actually follow what i am saying instead of interrupt with randomness

like this everyone would be on the same page at the same time, instead of jumping all over the place like i have said earlier to him

you think i dont get confused when ali jumps around and i try to keep up?

lol

May Allah have Mercy on us all

ameen

ya farahati