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5:00 PM
@robjohn That was me! Very nice, I was looking for a solution using real methods. But it seems very tough.
@Arkamis WLOG - with loss of generality
 
@N3buchadnezzar That took me a second, lol
 
@N3buchadnezzar sins and sinhs don't mix too easily
 
It is like mixing babies and razorblades
 
@N3buchadnezzar it gets messy very quickly
 
5:03 PM
Yes
 
5:21 PM
And to solve the issue you might have to use complex analysis.
Although in the one latter case one might prefer to call it difficult endoscopy.
 
Somehow, I think this is not the answer the OP wants: math.stackexchange.com/a/455780/31475
 
Hi
 
@Charlie Hello!
 
@Arkamis hi Ed, how Is it going?
 
Not bad; busy. Avoiding writing a mini-report. Needing to shift my mind into wordsmithing mode.
 
5:35 PM
Interesting
 
@Arkamis "integral solution" means finding an antiderivative - your answer. I think it is just fine. I would suggest an edit to "How do we know a function doesn't have an antiderivative in closed form?" or something similar.
@Charlie já acabaram as férias por aí? Hehehe
 
@IanMateus Oh, I know. I just think the OP was hoping for a magic bullet.
 
@IanMateus amanhã acaba
 
@Arkamis this user is Brazilian, I've translated one of his answers, I think.
@Charlie aqui só dia cinco... Eu acho! :D
 
@IanMateus Ahehe
 
6:09 PM
Does anyone know how to strikeout math in mathjax? I'm trying \cancel{} but itsn't working
 
@gekkostate \require{cancel}
 
@Arkamis Thanks! It's working :D
 
$\require{cancel}\cancel{\textrm{strike this!}}$
 
@Arkamis Fowl how is it going? Is it possible to show the said integral is not reperesentable by a smal range of functions?
 
Hola...
 
6:18 PM
I mean one answer is to say that smart mathematicians have defined a function to be $$ \operatorname{Si}(z) = \int_0^z \frac{\sin x}{x} \,\mathrm{d}x $$
And when smart mathematicians does that, it usualy means the integral can not be written in an elementary form.
 
It cannot!
 
I guess this would be more comprehensible to the OP, although it is per definition a worse answer.
 
Else, I am sure my analog communications textbook would have had a better expression for it.
 
@JayeshBadwaik Prove it :-)
 
Meh.
Also, if I know that a series is convergent, is there a way to compare it to some sequence $ \sum \frac{1}{n^{1+\delta}}$, for some $\delta >0$?
About that Meh, I am not sure I can prove it.
@N3buchadnezzar Wassup otherwise?
 
6:29 PM
Mathz
@JayeshBadwaik You ?
 
Mathz.
 
Writing on my integration paper thingy
 
Ohh, may I see the draft?
 
Wrong language :p
 
:P Correct now?
 
6:32 PM
Oh, I meant my document is in Norwegian. Haha
 
Hahahahahaha.
Why are you writing the paper anyway?
 
@JayeshBadwaik For funz. Here is the draft folk.ntnu.no/oistes/Diverse/Integral%20Kokeboken.pdf
I collect everything about integration and integration techniques I enjoy.
 
Ahh, yes I have seen this before.
Cool document it is!
 
Soon finished with part III :p polygamma and digamma and so forth
Got some help from Chris'sis
 
I see. Nice work. Have you recorded the explicit solutions too? Or just problems?
(For example Section 2.8.1)
 
6:36 PM
Oh, if you click on the problems
 
Its an impressive collection.
 
you are taken to the solution
I think about half of them have solutions so far
 
Yeah.
 
Click on the number for just the answer, and the integral for a full solution :p
 
:-o
Wow
 
6:38 PM
Fancy pancy latex. Also where it says Theorem (3.7) then the whole thing is a hyperlink.
Even though only the number is colored.
 
Hmm.
I can never get something in such concrete form. Its swimming around changing all the time, and everytime I write something, a month later, I am not happy with what I have written. :-/
 
You have no idea how many times I have rewritten that document :p
 
I see.
 
But I actually found a solution that works for me.
I only work when I feel a gist of motivation, if not then I do not work. And I only take small chips at a time. Solving a few problems one day, then might come back a motnth later and do some more.
 
Hmm. I have learnt to leave the imperfect as it is, without destroying it, not until I have found something better to replace it with.
So, my collection is starting out just now, some 4 pages long as of now, more about series and sequences that integration though.
 
6:45 PM
=)
Very good keep at it
 
Yup, I hope I have something substantial in a year's time or so!
Okay, then I gotta get going. See you later.
Bye
Good day
 
7:18 PM
@N3buchadnezzar hi Øinsteiny
 
@Charlie Wwwwwwwazup?
 
@N3buchadnezzar not much, and you?
 
mathz
 
@N3buchadnezzar your book is really nice! How long have you been working on it?
 
More or less a year =)
Hopefully you can understand parts of it
 
7:32 PM
@N3buchadnezzar I spotted some backslashes missing, I think you would like to know about them
 
Sure
I am mainly working on III now though, not started on any other part really.
 
@N3buchadnezzar in page 14, backslashes are missing in both $\sin$ and $\sinh$
 
Found it! Need to rewrite that part though, as it stands it is somewhat silly..
 
@N3buchadnezzar there is a break line in page 24, backslash missing in $\log$ in page 36
 
The problem with the backslash is the pagebreak. I think it will fix itself by writing a few more pages. Fixed the log though.
 
7:36 PM
@N3buchadnezzar in page 48, you wrote $()^r\frac{x^2+1}{x^b+1}$, I think you mean $\left(\frac{x^2+1}{x^b+1}\right)^r$
 
You have a good eye ;) Thanks
 
@N3buchadnezzar and a suggestion of mine is changing $l$ to $\ell,$ particularly in pages 94-95. I think it is nicer, and there is a thread here about this, but I couldn't find.
 
@IanMateus It should be $ \left( \frac{x^2}{x^4 + 2ax + 1} \right)^r$ in the brackets. From page 48 is the part I wrote earlier today =)
 
@N3buchadnezzar as I said, your book is really nice! I'm reading the $\mathrm{sinc}$ part
 
@IanMateus If you have any questions just ask =)
 
7:50 PM
@N3buchadnezzar didn't you think to publish your book? I'd like to publish a book of limits and integrals. Every day tens of nice things come to my mind. I'd like to have a book if possible ... (maybe one day)
 
Nooo and it is like 20% done anyways :p
\begin{align*}
\int_0^\infty \left( \frac{x}{x^4 - x^2 + 1} \right)^{3/4} \log \left( \frac{x^2}{x^4 - x^2 + 1} \right)
& = - \sqrt{\frac{\pi}{4}\!} \frac{\Gamma\left(\frac14\right)}{\Gamma\left(\frac34\right)}\left( \psi\left(1 - \frac14\right) - \psi\left(\frac14\right) \right) \\
& = - \frac{1}{2} \sqrt{ \frac{\pi}{2} } \Gamma^2\!\left( \frac{1}{4} \right)
\end{align*}
for $r = 3/4$. Her ble det brukt at $\psi(1-z) - \psi(z) = \pi \cot(\pi z)\Rightarrow\psi(3/4)-\psi(1/4)=\pi$ og
$\Gamma(1-z)\Gamma(z) = \pi/\sin(\pi z) \Rightarrow 1/\Gamma(3/4) = \Gamma(1/4) \sin(\pi/4)/\pi$.
 
@N3buchadnezzar in page 17, you wrote $\displaystyle\int\frac{1+x^4}{1+x^4}\,dx$, based on what comes afterwards, I guess you meant $\displaystyle\int\frac{1+x^2}{1+x^4}\,dx.$
 
Yes =)
 
@N3buchadnezzar when you write $\log,$ what does it mean? $\log_{10},$ $\log_2,$ $\log_e$?
 
Oh I use the ISO standard. I think I changed halway though.. mental note to self, make it consistent
$\log = \log_e$ and I avoid $\ln$ as far as possible. $\lg = \log_{10}$ og $\operatorname{lb} = \log_2$
The whole $\ln$ mess was introduced by calculators and new wave mathematicians. I preffer ye oldie way.
 
7:58 PM
@N3buchadnezzar if I had a book I'd call it "A collection of 20,000 amazing integrals and limits". That "20,000 " is also related to the nice novel "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" by Jules Verne.
:-)
 
@Chris'ssis It would be a dissapointment if your book did not contain 20 000 integrals though!
 
@N3buchadnezzar ok, it is because I got confused. There are $\mathrm{ln}$'s floating around, but also $\log$ when it seems clear you meant $\log_e$. Example: $\displaystyle \int_0^{e^\pi}\sin\left(\log(x)\right)\,dx$ is quite harder if $\log=\log_{10}$.
 
@N3buchadnezzar It's not a joke, but I think I could go further to "A collection of 100,000 amazing integrals and limits".
 
@IanMateus Yeah
@IanMateus Well somewhat harder, you only have an extra constant to worry abouth though.
 
@N3buchadnezzar in page 40, you wrote the definition of Wallis' integrals like $\displaystyle \int_0^{\pi/2}\sin^x\,dx$ instead of $\sin^n(x)$
 
8:09 PM
fixed
Heh searched after wallis and found it after 2 seconds.
Ty
 
@N3buchadnezzar It would be great if you added a chapter on divergent series =)
 
Series? Divegent?
 
Yes, see Wikipedia. They are great
 
Well I do have a short section about series, might add it there =)
 
@N3buchadnezzar $\psi\left(\frac14\right)=-\frac\pi2 - 3\log(2)-\gamma$.
 
8:24 PM
Faster to use the identities :p Proving $\psi(1/4)$ is somewhat cumbersome, having to to tricks with series and such.
Better to use the reflection formula for the digamma function =)
 
quick question about math.se : what are those numbers next to the hot questions that you see when you hover over the logo
 
@N3buchadnezzar I know. I computed a number of values of $\psi$ between 0 and 1
 
I'm sorry, click the logo
 
@robjohn I did $x=1, 1/2$ and $1/3$, did not feel like doing more afterwards... :-)
 
8:27 PM
H(-5/6) = (log(3) - 4 log(6) - pi sqrt(3))/2 = -5.75491184047338
H(-3/4) = -(pi + 3 log(4))/2                 = -3.65023786847473
H(-2/3) = -(pi/sqrt(3) + 3 log(3))/2         = -2.55481811511927
H(-1/2) = -2 log(2)                          = -1.38629436111989
H(-1/3) = (pi/sqrt(3) - 3 log(3))/2          = -.741018750885056
H(-1/4) = (pi - 3 log(4))/2                  = -.508645214884939
H(-1/6) = (log(3) - 4 log(6) + pi sqrt(3))/2 = -.313513747770728
 
Oh, and do not tell me it starts to get fun again after $x=1/10$.
 
add 1 to the argument and subtract $\gamma$ from the result :-) $H(-5/6)-\gamma=\psi(1/6)$
 
@N3buchadnezzar I don't speak your language, but I think you swapped even/odd in page 14.
 
Possibly, really need to rewrite that section =)
 
8:43 PM
@N3buchadnezzar here is a new born (maybe you like it) and it ask for an elementary solution $$\lim_{n\to\infty} n^{1/120}\left(\sqrt{1+\sqrt[3]{1+\sqrt[4]{1+\sqrt[5]{n+1}}}}-\sqrt[120]{n+1}\right)$$
I just created it, and now I'm working on the generalization case.
 
I have only seen infinite versions of those.. Sadly :p
Looks cool though
 
@N3buchadnezzar did you ever see it?? This would be really interesting.
 
No, I have not seen that one.
 
@N3buchadnezzar OK :-)
 
I derived and used $$
\sum_{k=1}^n\psi\left(\frac kn\right)=-n\left(\gamma+\log(n)\right)\\
\psi(1-x)-\psi(x)=\pi\cot(\pi x)
$$
Or the $H(x)$ equivalents
 
8:50 PM
@robjohn Very nice
 
@Chris'ssis I'd guess zero.
 
@IanMateus It's $1/2$.
 
@Chris'ssis The answer is 1/2
 
@robjohn true
 
@Chris'ssis I see you already said that :-(
 
9:06 PM
@robjohn Did you do it by Mathematica or?
 
@robjohn :p
 
@Chris'ssis I did it on paper
 
Enlighten me
 
@robjohn Great!
 
@IanMateus I first factored out $n^{1/120}$ out of the long iterated radicals
 
9:07 PM
I've got some messy and non-rigorous thing after applying the binomial theorem four times
 
$$\sqrt{1+\sqrt[3]{1+\sqrt[4]{1+\sqrt[5]{n+1}}}}\\
=n^{1/120}\sqrt{n^{-1/60}+\sqrt[3]{n^{-1/20}+\sqrt[4]{n^{-1/5}+\sqrt[5]{1+1/n}}}}$$
The inner part is $1+\frac1{5n}$
The $n^{-1/5}$ completely swamps the $\frac1{5n}$
so the 4th root becomes $1+\frac1{4n^{1/5}}$
but the $n^{-1/20}$ completely swamps the $\frac1{4n^{1/5}}$
and so forth, until the square root is essentially $1+\frac1{2n^{1/60}}$
 
Got it. Great job!
I hadn't factored the $n^{1/120}$ term, so I think I was selecting the wrong terms
 
@IanMateus that seems to be the key
@Chris'ssis I assume that is how you did it?
 
@robjohn I did like $$\sqrt[4]{1+\sqrt[5]{1+n}}=\sqrt[20]{1+n}\sqrt[4]{1+\frac{1}{\sqrt[5]{1+n}}}= \sqrt[20]{1+n} \left(1+\frac{1}{4\sqrt[5]{1+n}}\right)$$ which gets messier and messier.
 
you need white space in there.
There is a problem in comments and chat that inserts bad characters after 80 non-whitespace characters
it messes up MathJax
 
9:19 PM
@robjohn yes. I was wondering if there is an elegant way when having many radicals.
 
@Chris'ssis You mean rather than $5$ and $120$ you use $n$ and $n!$ ? I think the answer is still $\frac12$
 
By the way, $$\sqrt[2]{1+\sqrt[3]{1+\sqrt[4]{1+\cdots}}}$$ converges? If so, to what?
 
@robjohn yes. The limit preserves when performing the generalization.
 
This seems to be slowly diverging.
 
9:36 PM
$$\sqrt{1+\sqrt{1+\sqrt{1+\cdots}}} \rightarrow \text{golden ratio}$$
 
@Chris'ssis $$\int_0^\infty \frac{\mathrm{d}x}{(1+x^\phi)^\phi}$$
 
@N3buchadnezzar I feel the magic words are "beta function". Do you think I'm right? :-)
 
Maybe ;) $\phi$ is the golden ratio btw
 
@Chris'ssis I can't say whether it is diverging or going to $1.51760016...$
 
@IanMateus we could compare it with the nested radical I posted for the golden ratio.
 
9:49 PM
@IanMateus It definitely converges.
 
@robjohn definitely!
 
I don't know if it has a closed form for the limit.
 
@Chris'ssis How? I couldn't see it
 
@IanMateus with each term added it increases, so you have an increasing sequence, bounded above by $\phi$
 
Who wants chowder?
 
9:53 PM
@robjohn Oh, for convergence. I thought she was talking about determining the value.
 
@IanMateus I only referred to the convergence.
 
Yeah, my bad.
 
@PeterTamaroff what is "chowder"?
 
@IanMateus The ISC finds nothing for that limit.
 
9:56 PM
@PeterTamaroff hehe, nice (+1) :-)
 
I think this deserves a question. I'll ask it.
 
@IanMateus What is the question?
 
Where does one usually put acknowledgements in a math paper? e.g. thanking the reviewers
 
@IanMateus let me know when you post it since I want to upvote it.
 
@PeterTamaroff $$\sqrt[2]{1+\sqrt[3]{1+\sqrt[4]{1+\cdots}}}$$
 
9:58 PM
I know I've seen it before but I can't remember a specific example to check
 
@IanMateus How do you define that, recursively?
 
@PeterTamaroff No idea.
 
@IanMateus to 50 places it is $1.5176001678777188913706580430634162718851570067920$
The ISC finds nothing for that value
 
@N3buchadnezzar I cannot read nordsk! FUUUUUUUU
 
@PeterTamaroff WLON
Without Loss of norsk
 
10:07 PM
What should I tag it?
@Chris'ssis It is done
 
The Mathematica code:
f[n_] := Module[{k=n, s=1}, While[k>1, s=(1+s)^(1/k); k=k-1]; s]
 
@robjohn Please, post it as a comment
 
10:23 PM
@IanMateus done
 
Pedro, Pedro, Pedro...
@peter you're so vain, you probably think this comment is about you, you're so vain, you probably think this comment is about you,.don't you don't you
 
@Charlie What?
 
@PeterTamaroff whats up peter
 
@Ethan Had my Algebra I final today. Did well,.
 
oh, I still have a month left of break
what kind of math are you studying now?
analysis/algebra?
 
10:46 PM
I'm still doing some analysis, and I am a little wrapped around this, so I have decided to take a course on sequences and series in my uni.
 
I have always put that down as somthing I wanted to study
When I was younger I experimented calculating sums of powers
also, they appear in alot of other different nice places
euler maclaurin formula
etc
 
@Ethan Right.
 
oh that was the convolution page
when I started learning about dirichlet convolutions, and I saw how useful they were
I thought I might try to do the same with power series
 
Don't you know this song @peter ?
 
though I never got around it to I thought it would be a pain to differentiate between the cases when the starting index of the power series was at 1 or 0
 
10:50 PM
@ethan
 
@PeterTamaroff apparently I think there called Cauchy convolutions or something
 
@Charlie Which one?
 
@PeterTamaroff the thing I wrote about you
 
Dear @Peter: Regarding your recent comment, If you read the OP's earlier question, I think you'll see my interpretation was indeed correct.
The question is hardly about rings, Peano axioms, etc.
 
@amWhy Yes, I figured it would be, just checking.
 
10:56 PM
@amWhy hi
 
@Charlie Ha! I would've never known that was part of a song.
 
It is
 
@Charlie Hi...And hi Peter. Sorry if I sounded snippy. I just checked the OP's profile after suspecting that the comments below that particular question were aiming above the level of the OP.
 
@PeterTamaroff I have been experimenting with some of the series in many of the plouffe ramanujan formula, like
$$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{m^2+n^2}=\frac{\pi}{m}\frac{1}{e^{2\pi m}-1}+\frac{\pi}{2m}-\frac{1}{2m^2}$$
$$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{m^4+m^2n^2}=\frac{\pi}{m^3}\frac{1}{e^{2\pi m}-1}+\frac{\pi}{2m^3}-\frac{1}{2m^4}$$
$$\sum_{m=1}^\infty\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{m^4+m^2n^2}=\pi\sum_{m=1}^\infty\frac{1}{m^3(e^{2\pi m}-1)}+\frac{\pi}{2}\zeta(3)-\frac{1}{2}\zeta(4)$$
$$\text{ But since,}$$
$$\frac{1}{m^4+m^2n^2}=\frac{1}{n^2m^2}-\frac{1}{n^4+n^2m^2}$$
$$\text{ We get,}$$
$$\frac{\zeta(2)^2}{2}=\sum_{m=1}^\infty\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{m^4+m^2n^2}$$
 
@amWhy interesthing
 
10:59 PM
@Peter I just restored my answer, and responded to your comment, which you can ignore...just responded for the sake of future viewers.
 
And so that
$$\zeta(3)=\frac{7\pi^3}{180}-2\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{n^3(e^{2\pi n}-1)}$$
With the series on the rhs, giving several correct digits every couple of summands
though of course calculating $e^{2\pi}$ probably isn't very computationally efficient lol
I found one for catlans constant also
$$G=\frac{11\pi^2}{120}+6\sum_{m=1}^\infty\frac{e^{2\pi m}}{m^2(e^{2\pi m}-1)^2}$$
 
@Ethan I confess I am not familiar at all with all that madness =)
 
@Charlie :-D
 
But I see you have gotten better and better at it.
 
@PeterTamaroff yes you are lol, scroll up I gave like a 3 line proof of the first one
 
11:01 PM
@Peter :-) Appreciated. Disclaimer added.
 
You manipulate series like a barman manipulates glasses, braw.
 
@amWhy how are you?
 
@Ethan How do you find the very first series? That is $$\sum_{n\geqslant 1} (n^2+m^2)^{-1}=\rm blah$$
 
thats just the logarithmic derivative of the product expansion for the sine function
 
@PeterTamaroff That was given here a while ago...
 
11:03 PM
everything after that is just algebra, and series manipulations
 
@robjohn So...?
 
I think the ramanujan ploufe formula for zeta constants has already been generalized for special values of dirichlet L Functions though lol
 
@PeterTamaroff Ah, I see that Ethan has posted that again :-)
 
so I think the catlans constant one could be simplified to $L(2,\chi_4)$
@robjohn its so nice i couldn't resist lol
 
$1-\frac1{3^2}+\frac1{5^2}-\frac1{7^2}+\frac1{9^2}-\dots$
 
11:06 PM
@Charlie Good, good. I learned today I only need radiation treatment (learned yesterday about a tumor, but today, assured that the tumor is benign, given the results of a biopsy, but in some cases (10%), leaving intact can lead to becoming cancerous. So very relieved, and am fine with radiation for the next few weeks.
 
The technique for solving the double sum by noting that $$\frac{1}{m^4+m^2n^2}=\frac{1}{n^2m^2}-\frac{1}{n^4+n^2m^2}$$, was so nice it gave off some other identities like
$$\sum_{d\mid n} \frac{1}{d^2+n}=\frac{d(n)}{2n}$$
 
@amWhy [Referring to your answer to the question about (ab)c=(ac)b] I am not sure that is an explanation of why you need both. Rather, it says that both are sufficient.
 
@Charlie Absolutely no need for alarm. The tumor is of the sort that usually goes unnoticed, most often never causes trouble, and mine was found earlier than is usual. So I've really no greater risk of cancer, after radiation.
 
If $f$ is an arithmetic function with $f(d)\ne 0$ for all divisors $d$ of $n$, then $$\sum_{d\mid n} \frac{1}{f(d)^2+f(d)f(\frac{n}{d})}=\frac{1}{2}\sum_{d\mid n}\frac{1}{f(d)f(\frac{n}{d})}$$
 
@user1 I can surely modify my disclaimer. I think I have clearly understood what the OP was asking, but should change the word "need".
 
11:10 PM
@Ethan How do you prove what I asked?
 
And the vote count keeps growing for a silly answer!
 
@robjohn That is simply stupid.
Plain stupid.
 
@PeterTamaroff amen. Shakes head and frowns.
 
11:30 PM
@robjohn, do you know what it means to obtain "strong asymptotics" for a sequence of functions?
 
@AntonioVargas Probably some tight inequalities $f_n\leq F_n\leq g_n$ where $f_n,g_n\to F=\lim F_n$?
Or maybe that convergence is fast?
 
@PeterTamaroff I'm really not sure. The phrase seems to come up a lot in the literature for asymptotics for orthogonal polynomials, but I'm having a hard time seeing what the difference between "strong" and normal asymptotics is.
 
11:45 PM
I think it might mean to narrow down what class of growth a function has to a greater extent than what the opposite adjective "weak" would suggest.
For example, $\pi(x)\sim\frac{x}{\log x}$ is a much stronger asymptotic than $\pi(x)=o(x)$
 
@anon Could I ask your opinion about something?
 
okay
 
I will take Linear Algebra next "quad"mester. I can also take Analysis II; but I have chosen to sign up for a optional course on sequences and series (I think I mentioned this before). The syllabus of LI is very extensive, and since I am not really well versed in Linear Algebra, I think it might be good to take dedicate a good time of the next four months to this and that little course, and then continue with Analysis, which I am OK with, really.
 
extensive?
 
@anon DERP.
I thought of "extenso" in Spanish.
=)
 
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