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Zee
2:10 PM
@SingleFighter I suppose you can leave that as a variable
@Secret the cantor set does not contain any specific intervals
 
yet it has no isolated points, so what exactly are those things left behind, are they neither points nor intervals?
 
Zee
Yes
That's why the cantor set is craaazy
 
Using everything on what we said above, is it impossible to pick out any "building blocks" from the cantor set, unlike how in rationals you can always pick a rational singleton from the set itself, and an interval from the real line?
 
Zee
Well you can pick out end points of the intervals that you remove
 
Anyone here is an engineer?
Not a software one
 
Zee
2:16 PM
Those always stay in the cantor set
Or accumulation points that the cantor set is shrinking to
 
@Zee Will the variable be cancelled ? I don't think so.
 
Zee
Just leave the variable in the final answer
 
@Zee So this question has no complete information.
 
Zee
It seems so
 
One thing I am interested in is whether it is possible to zoom to the region where the cantor function increases (because it is said the increase took place at the points in the cantor set) so I can see how exactly that increase took place without any jump. I am not even sure if there's a mathematical expression that describe that
 
2:19 PM
@Zee Thanks.
 
But if they are neither points nor intervals, I am not sure if it can ever be wrote down explicitly
 
Guys, say we have the following differential equation:
$$
y^2\frac{dy}{dx}=\frac{1}{x^3}.
$$
By separating variables, we can write the following:
$$
y^2dy=\frac{1}{x^3}dx.
$$
Now I would like to make it explicit that $y$ is a function of $x$. I'm guessing I could write the following:
$$
y(x)^2d(y(x))=\frac{1}{x^3}dx.
$$
Now I understand that we can integrate the RHS, choosing limits as we like. But what happens to the LHS? This seems quite odd to me:
$$
\int_{x_0}^{x_1}y(x)^2d(y(x))=\int_{x_0}^{x_1}x^{-3}dx.
 
$$\int_{x_0}^{x_1}y(x)^2d(y(x))=\int_{x_0}^{x_1}y(x)^2\frac{dy(x)}{dx}dx$$
by chain rule
 
ohhhhhhh
 
Zee
@Secret interesting, am not sure that's possible
 
2:23 PM
@Zee shut up:P
sorry jk, but that's great @Secret
physics (calculus) makes sense to me, at last!
 
Therefore, separation of variables is really a shorthand on what actually happened. We use those differentials to skip the chain rule step
 
Zee
Was talking about cantor set :p
 
oh my bad
I thought you where referring to the chain rule
as you can see, from my screen shot
but I guess they just make the last message grey from the person you pinged
 
Zee
It's cool, I got think skin
Lol meant to say think, said think
 
thicc*
 
Zee
2:27 PM
Damn autocorrect
 
autocorrect is the worse. i don't understand who invented that and why. it's sh*t
 
Recently I was enumerating ordinals and I suspect the epsilon mapping grows slower than a pentation by considering how when I expand $\epsilon_2$ in terms of $\omega$ and hyperoperations, I got a bunch of left associative stuff thus suggesting it actually grew slower than pentation

And then I stumbled upon the recent PBS infinity which talked about the cantor function, and that get me ponder about the cantor set

while all that time, I should be doing my chemistry PhD stuff and not procrastinating in other fields
 
actually, i like it when the correction is good. but i hate it when they autocorrect what I'm trying to correct when they autocorrected wrong
 
Zee
@Secret impressive...
 
4 hours ago, by Secret
\begin{align}
\sup(\{0|j\in\Bbb{N}\})& =\sup(\{0,0,0,\cdots\})=0\\
0+0+\cdots<1\\
\sup(\{j|j\in\Bbb{N}\})&=\sup(\{0,1,2,\cdots\})=\omega=1+\omega\\
\sup(\{\omega+j|j\in\Bbb{N}\})&=\sup(\{\omega,\omega+1,\omega+2,\cdots\})=\omega 2\\
\sup(\{\omega j|j\in\Bbb{N}\})&=\sup(\{0,\omega,\omega 2,\cdots\})=\omega^2=\omega+\omega^2\\
\sup(\{\omega^j|j\in\Bbb{N}\})&=\sup(\{1,\omega,\omega^2,\cdots\})={}^2\omega=\omega ({}^2\omega)\\
\sup(\{{}^j\omega|j\in\Bbb{N}\})&=\sup(\{1,\omega,\omega^{\omega},\cdots\})=\epsilon_0=\omega^{\epsilon_0}\\
btw due to lack of notations, $\circ^{\omega}$ means "applies whatever to the left on it on the right $\omega$ times
 
Zee
2:30 PM
@Secret I think the cantor function increases in a jumping way where the jumps have measure zero , you should look at the series form of the cantor function
Latex does not work here...
 
Actually it works, but it does not in that link snipplet because \end{align} is snipped out. This means the full message has to be read directly by clicking its link
There's a series representation of the cantor function? I so far only found iterative algorithms for it
Let me check again...
 
Zee
Yes, you can find it in Folland real analysis , end of section 1.5
@ShaVuklia I never understood how can people study both math and physics , that's insane
 
@Zee well yea, we've got very few sane people in the class.
 
Zee
I doubt there exist a sane mathematician anyway
 
lol good point
 
Zee
2:46 PM
At least now I don't have to worry about being crazy , it's a job qualification
 
hahahaha!! it definitely is
 
hi chat
 
hi @Semi!
 
@ShaVuklia ugh
I know that's a joke, but
 
hahaha sorryyy @Semi
 
2:47 PM
@Zee This dude Hamilton, who did a lot of work on the poincare conjecture, is quite a sane and cool guy
 
ok i've deleted it
 
Zee
Hamilton ? Lol no sane person spends his whole life trying to add triplets
 
I get annoyed by the cultural sense of "math is scary/hard so therefore if you like math you're weird"
 
Zee
I def agree , we were just having a laugh at the stereotype
 
2:49 PM
^ I think that's the best remedy :P @Zee
 
@Zee Different Hamilton
 
i feel like i am the cool guy when i am good at solving problems
 
Zee
Sorry , Rocco flow Hamilton?
 
Yeah
Although I can't recall where I've read that
Lemme find it
 
though I can understand that cultural stereotype given how badly I think math is taught in high school
 
2:50 PM
you bet
people start hating maths
 
Hamilton, the son of a Cincinnati doctor, defied the math profession’s nerdy stereotype. Brash and irreverent, he rode horses, windsurfed, and had a succession of girlfriends. He treated math as merely one of life’s pleasures. At forty-nine, he was considered a brilliant lecturer, but he had published relatively little beyond a series of seminal articles on the Ricci flow, and he had few graduate students.
 
becoz they dont understand no nuthin
 
Zee
@Semiclassical for me personally, school gave me negative value in terms of nath
 
If high school math were really what math was, then someone who actually enjoyed that would strange.
 
2:52 PM
i agree @Semiclassical
although there are some teachers who try to make it fun
 
Certainly, people try to make it better.
 
Zee
@Krijn sounds like a person I wanna spend time with lol
 
@Zee Mos' def.
 
I have a hard time seeing how to make two-column proofs in geometry fun, though.
 
Zee
2:53 PM
@Semiclassical failed high school math, gradute with a math degree
 
I decided "hey, I want to be a math/physics major" until the summer between high school and college
so I guess I was pretty early on the curve there.
 
Zee
Actually I was giving a description of my life
 
2:55 PM
Nice.
 
Zee
Thx :)
I had to get my revenge
 
@ShaVuklia Oh, @Ted and I did a bit more thinking on that one bit of Griffiths you were wondering about
 
@Semi yea I'd read it!
 
I think it's useful to recap exactly what Griffiths is saying there. First, you've got $$\langle x \rangle = \int_{-\infty}^\infty \Psi^*(x)x \Psi(x)\,dx=\int_{-\infty}^\infty x\rho(x,t)\,dx$$ where $\rho(x,t)=|\Psi(x,t)|^2$.
 
yes
(oh wait, I'm actually not sure if I'd read it. I only read the things you wrote shortly after I left)
 
3:00 PM
I didn't write it like this, but I think this is useful
 
sure
you should have written $\Psi(x,t)$ actually, right?
 
Yeah.
 
okay
 
gah
 
hi @Dodsy
 
3:01 PM
That differentiates to $$\dfrac{d\langle x\rangle}{dt}=\int_{-\infty}^\infty x\frac{\partial \rho}{\partial t} \,dx=\int_{-\infty}^\infty x \frac{\partial J}{\partial x}\,dx$$ where $J(x,t)$ is the so-called probability current
 
Hey
 
yea I've just seen $J(x,t)$ in an exercise
so I'm familiar with that
 
Right.
So then he integrates by parts to get $$\frac{d\langle x\rangle}{dt}=[x J]^{\infty}_{-\infty}-\int_{-\infty}^\infty J(x,t)\,dx$$
 
yes
 
Hence what's at stake w/r/t the boundary term is the behavior of $xJ$ at infinity.
 
3:04 PM
correct
 
:/
that's not rendering for me.
 
Yeah, I'm editing
 
lol he knows @Dodsy
 
With that in mind, it's useful to note that $$J/\rho = \frac{i\hbar}{2m}\left(\frac{1}{\Psi}\frac{\partial \Psi}{\partial x}-\frac{1}{ \Psi^{\star} }\frac{\partial \Psi^\star}{\partial x}\right)=\frac{i\hbar}{2m}\frac{\partial}{\partial x}\ln \frac{\Psi}{\Psi^\star}.$$
 
crazy mathematics man.
 
3:09 PM
oh, let me think a sec about this $\ln$
 
It's more obvious if you note $\ln(\Psi/\Psi^*)=\ln\Psi-\ln\Psi^*$
 
ah
yea okay
i'm with ya
okay wait
so
we could write $J/\rho\cdot\rho$ then?
 
For $J$?
 
yea I thought so, but i dunno, you can continue :P
 
Yeah, and that's what I"m aiming for
It means that the only difference between $x\rho$ (which is what matters for $\langle x\rangle$) and $xJ$ (the boundary term) is $J/\rho$
 
3:13 PM
sorry but where do we have $x\rho$?
 
$\langle x \rangle =\int_{-\infty}^\infty x\rho(x,t)\,dx$
 
oh yea
 
Hello
 
Anyways, continuing on.
To make $J/\rho$ more accessible, we can write the wavefunction in polar form as $\Psi=Re^{i S/\hbar}$ with $R,S$ being real functions of $x,t$
 
oh right, I haven't seen that yet (I've only seen stationary states), but I can assume that for now
 
3:16 PM
Oh bollocks. There's a minus sign floating around that I got wrong. one moment while I figure it out
Okay, the continuity equation (the relation between $\rho$ and $J$ should've been $\frac{\partial \rho}{\partial t}+\frac{\partial J}{\partial x}=0$
 
algebra anyone?
 
(if you compare the expression Griffiths has in his exercise on J and what he writes in the text re: the derivative of $|\Psi|^2$, you'll find that the two are actually different by a sign due to the order in which he writes the derivatives)
So therefore it's actually $\frac{d\langle x\rangle}{dt}=[-xJ]_{-\infty}^\infty +\int_{-\infty}^\infty J(x,t)\,dx$
and $J/\rho = \frac{\hbar}{2mi}\frac{\partial}{\partial x}\ln\frac{\Psi}{\Psi^*}$
 
@SantoshLinkha depends what kind
 
ah yes, I see the minus sign
 
lmfao
wikipedia says that Mozart liked fart jokes
 
3:20 PM
okay I'm following!
 
Anyways. Writing $\Psi$ in polar form then yields $J/\rho = \frac{1}{m}\frac{\partial S}{\partial x}$.
 
@AlessandroCodenotti Hello ... same old algebra question. Just need to give me hint.
 
@SantoshLinkha let's hear it
 
So the boundary term can be written as $[xJ]^{\infty}_{-\infty}=[x\rho \cdot \frac{1}{m}\frac{\partial S}{\partial x}]_{-\infty}^\infty$
 
3:22 PM
can I take the roots of polynomial $X^6 - 2$
 
@SantoshLinkha be more precise. You want to know where it is 0?
 
Sorry I need one sec to convince myself of $J/\rho = \frac{1}{m}\frac{\partial S}{\partial x}$, but you can continue talking if you want
 
This is Galois theory stuff, so probably the numerical location of the roots isn't relevant @TheGreatDuck
 
okay!
I see that now
 
(This is a subject where I know just enough to recognize that I can't help at all)
 
3:23 PM
@TheGreatDuck I want to know if I can find any such irreducible polynomial with four different roots which cannot be expressed in terms of each other.
I have been thinking, I wouldn't get irreducible polynomial whose roots are both $\sqrt 2$ and $\sqrt 3$
 
@Semiclassical 'numerical location of the roots' I'm referring to finding the roots.
 
This tells us that if we want to get a weird example, we'll want to have $x\rho\to0$ (in order for $\langle x\rangle$ to exist) but $\partial S/\partial x\to \infty$ in such a way that the boundary term doesn't vanish.
 
I'm confused. Just solve for $x^6 - 2 = 0$?
 
Again, this is Galois theory. That won't help him.
This is abstract algebra mumbo-jumbo.
 
3:25 PM
oooh
 
here is my question again :(
 
Galois Theory is related to groups right?
 
yea I'm with ya @Semi
just wanted to point that out about $\pm\infty$
 
That would be finding what x is needed to make y = 0, which isn't what he's doing.
 
@TheGreatDuck yeah it's related to groups. But it's more related to field theory
 
3:26 PM
@TheGreatDuck It's higher-level than just groups, I think. More like field theory and field extensions
 
bah, ninja-d
 
extending the rationals with the solutions of second order polynomials is less advanced than messing with groups imo
I've done the former but not the latter.
 
@sha What did you want to point out? I think I missed something
 
@Semi oh no, just that that it goes to infinity, instead of not to zero
but then you edited it
 
3:28 PM
Gotcha.
 
anyone can confirm that these two extensions are not equal?
I feel stupid doing it because I am sure it's wrong
 
Now, we need more than just $x\rho\to 0$ of course. We really need it to go to zero faster than $1/x$ at $x=\infty$, since it won't be integrable if it goes to zero as $1/x$.
 
alright
 
To engineer that, I'll take $\rho(x,t)=R^2= \frac{2}{\pi}\frac{1}{(x^2+1)^2}$
I could do something else, but this'll do
 
Wheere's Ted, I want to complain to him.
I guess it's only 8:30 where he is.
 
3:33 PM
So $R(x,t)=\sqrt{\frac{2}{\pi}}\frac{1}{1+x^2}$.
 
Does going faster to zero mean $\lim_x\frac{Cx}{(x^2+1)^2}=0$?
 
Well, the point is that $x\rho\sim 1/x^3$ for large $x$
Which is faster than $1/x$.
 
ah right
of course
 
Given that behavior, for the boundary term to behave badly we need $\partial S/\partial x\sim x^3$ or faster
So let's take $S=x^4/4.$
 
ok, exciting:P
 
3:37 PM
I'm being rather disrespectful to the units here now, unfortunately.
Just pretend $m=\hbar =1$ :P
So our proposed counter-example is $\Psi(x)=\sqrt{\frac{2}{\pi}} \frac{e^{i x^4/4}}{x^2+1}$
With this, it's not hard to check that $\langle x\rangle =0$.
 
sorry one quick thing: what are the units of $e^x$?
 
dimensionless
 
A figure shows the footprints of a walking person with a step length of 0.7 m. How can we calculate how far the person comes about when she walks x minutes. How could we do that? Do we have enough information to do that?
 
Hence why before I had $e^{iS/\hbar}$
So that $S$ should have the same units of $\hbar$ i.e. action
 
but weren't the units of $\Psi$ $1/\sqrt L$?
 
3:39 PM
Yes. This is what I meant by being disrespectful to the units :/
 
oh, I thought you "solved" it by setting $m=\hbar=1$
but alright, I won't look at the units then
 

 The Universe of Quack

Where you are free to do proofwriting and generally hang out.
 
Well, there should also be a length scale $a$ for the wavefunction
 
check out my room
 
i.e. not $1+x^2$ but $a^2+x^2$
I've set this to 1 as well.
 
3:41 PM
is the length scale what makes it normalised?
 
Well
If we have $\Psi(x)=\frac{C}{x^2+a^2}$, then this will be normalized if $C=\sqrt{\frac{2a^3}{\pi}}$
 
ok, for now I'll just ignore what you said about length scale, and just go with $a=1$
 
In which case $\Psi$ indeed has units of $1/\sqrt{L}$
But yeah, I'd rather not bother :P
 
ohh
right
ohhh
cool, I'm glad you explained it anyways:P
 
Plus, what I should really have said is that $S/\hbar=x^4/4$ (and probably $x^4/4a^4$ at that).
 
3:45 PM
hahah
right, no worries.
 
Aaanyways.
 
i'm not being very precise anyways, since this is all new to me
 
If we look at the integral term after integration by parts, we can write this as $\int_{-\infty}^\infty J(x,t)\,dx=\int_{-\infty}^\infty \rho(x,t)\frac{\partial S}{\partial x}\,dx$
aside from a factor of 1/m that i'm ignoring because to hell with units
 
hahahah, right
 
So the term of interest is therefore $$\langle \partial S/\partial x\rangle = \langle x^3\rangle=\frac{2}{\pi}\int_{-\infty}^\infty \frac{x^3}{(1+x^2)^2}\,dx$$
And this isn't a convergent improper integral owing to the $1/x$ behavior at infinity
 
3:49 PM
I don't understand why we consider $\langle\partial S/\partial x\rangle$ tho?
where does the expectation of $\partial S/\partial x$ come into play?
 
Well, $\langle \partial S/\partial x\rangle = \int_{-\infty}^\infty \rho(x,t)\frac{\partial S}{\partial x}\,dx$
That's all I'm doing.
 
ohhhhhh
damn, why did i not see that
okay
 
So the point is this. We started with a distribution such that $\langle x \rangle=0$ identically, so the time derivative vanishes identically as well.
Nevertheless, we cannot integrate by parts
If we try to do so, we find that the resulting integral diverges.
 
okay, but you've only made that plausible right?
or should I take this as an actual (physical) proof?
 
Well, it's a proof for this particular $\Psi$.
 
3:52 PM
yea right
 
In truth, the wavefunctions you'll see in practice are far better behaved than this.
 
so the general take-home message is what you just said, and you made that plausible by showing it for a particular $\Psi$?
right yea
 
Right. What Griffiths is saying is sloppy.
For the wavefunctions you'll see in practice, it'll be just fine to say that the boundary term vanishes.
But it's not true in general.
 
haha, yea. I love Griffiths too much though for his excellent intro book to electrodynamics, so I'm not even annoyed (which I usually am)
 
3:54 PM
yea thanks! I will add that to my notes on that bit!:P
^ general thanks for explaining this entirely to me
 
Just to reinforce the point, the boundary term in this case would be $xJ=x\rho \frac{\partial S}{\partial x}=\frac{Cx}{(1+x^2)^2}\cdot x^3$
Which goes to $+C$ at both positive and negative infinity
 
right right
 
This is still not a perfect example. I'd prefer if it went to different limits :P
 
damn, I wish I could just screen shot this convo and paste it in my book
 
lol
The thing to really note here, I suspect, is that in order to get a weird example we required the probability current to behave strangely at infinity
 
3:57 PM
hahahah, yes pretty strange indeed
at least, the way I'm interpreting it, is that the probability starts flowing in/out excessively at infinity?
 
Something like that, yeah.
 
hi chato
 
For some (limited) intuition, we can note that $J/\rho$ would formally have units of velocity
 
0
A: Solving the Ordinary Differential Equation $\frac{dy}{dx} = c_{1} + c_{2}y + \frac{c_{3}}{y} , y(0) = c , c >0$.

Jaideep KhareInstead of doing that, why don't you just multiply the whole expression by $y$ and the let $y^2=t$.

 
I guess the simpler point, though, is that typically the probability current vanishes at infinity
So there's no transport of probability density in/out of the system.
 
3:58 PM
so if it does not vanish, then something strange must have been concocted
 
One biiiig exception to that, though!
 
"exciting"
 
When you talk about scattering problems, you'll take $\Psi(x,t)=e^{i (kx-\omega t)}$ i.e. a plane wave
 

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