The Water Cooler

12:03 AM

hahahahah

2:36 AM

Hi @enderland, to prevent your main site question from becoming too meta, I edited out the specific references to Joel. Since a large majority of the traffic to this site comes from users who don't have Stack Exchange accounts, that may have an exclusionary effect since some, or many, may not know who he is.

It's a great question, and it may be interesting to get answers from folks who aren't too close to the issue. Hope this helps clarify! :)

enderland

2:06 PM

@jmort253 it's ok I missed the hot questions boat anyways ;)

Jim G.

2:20 PM

@RhysW Agreed. Calling something "crappy" rather than constructively criticizing it is either weak, lazy, or both.

Chad

@jmort253 It was intended to poke the bear... and game the hot question list... It served its purpose :p

@jmac It is a business issue. The workplace is about navigating the workplace not about conducting business(doing your actual job). That has been set excluded as off topic since day one

RhysW

2:34 PM

@JimG. definitely, I wonder if he will be asking questions here as a result on how to improve 'boss - employee' relationships :P

Chad

@RhysW So are you saying he is wrong that we dont have any crappy answers or just that he should not have said it?

RhysW

Actually it's worse than that, its not poor boss employee relations, its boss client relationships. We are his clients! The part that makes the sites have a purpose to even exist!

@Chad That it could have been said better than how it was said

It's a problem we do have, its a problem that should be addressed, but not through insulting the people who are trying to fix things :P

Chad

@RhysW did you not see how he catagorized the whole site

RhysW

@Chad hmm i dont remember it

Chad

Joel says it’s a self-help group for commiserating.

RhysW

2:41 PM

googles commiserating

Chad

yeah well @JoelSpolsky .!..

RhysW

haha i doubt that will ping him

Chad

Guess I have moved on from the first stage and into anger :p

enderland

14

Q: How to correct a CEO's misunderstanding of a project?

A recent StackExchange podcast is a perfect illustration of a common problem. Senior management is aware of a project or department several layers removed. Management may disagree with the value of the project or misunderstand some key details, which may trigger the former, but regardless have a...

RhysW

but anyways, we know we are awesome, regardless of validation, so lets keep doing what we do!

enderland

2:43 PM

why did someone DV/vote to close I wonder.... (?)

RhysW

'unclear what you are asking'

is the reason selected

Chad

@RhysW still in denial stage :p

@enderland Because they could not answer it with out thinking

RhysW

Nope, Just honestly not bothered by his opinion, no different to anyone else's really!

I'm sure there are other sites hes not too fond of, unfortunately for us it was just highlighted :P

but thats why the community is the one really pulling the strings, all we need to do is keep supporting workplace and thats that

enderland

@Chad it's funny that questions like that stand such smaller change of hitting the hot questions list

but easy "tell me your thoughts!" get there easily

since they have so many more total upvotes

RhysW

Which is why he thinks we are a self help group

his interaction is probably only seeing us through the collider

if i only saw us through that i would agree with him

Chad

2:48 PM

@enderland See should have just asked what should I do

RhysW

@Chad you should quit :P

im surprised no one said to slap Joel as the answer yet, given its one of our memes...

enderland

@enderland I am going through something similar right now, except for my project being viewed as valueless, another project is viewed with extreme importance and showered with resources while this project truly is useless, a bridge to nowhere. This can have an equally bad affect on morale especially when facing artificial resource constraints. — maple_shaft 4 hours ago

This question has all of my feels. I have noticed two common trends. Management arrogance that they are 110% to credit finding such awesome talent as yourself and that they could find somebody equally as awesome tomorrow if they really wanted to... and complete lack of funds for hiring any more than a barebones skeleton technical crew. — maple_shaft Jan 24 at 12:09

i'm awesome at asking questions maple_shaft likes :)

jmac

@Chad "how do I negotiate with clients?" is as much a workplace issue as "how do I negotiate with coworkers?" -- Relatively certain you can find a slew of questions on The Workplace which deal with clients, not just coworkers.

Chad

@jmac I am not saying it does not happen at work. But it is out of the scope of this site

Just like how do I program or how do I sell crap

There should be a business site.

but not here

jmac

@Chad "How do I program?" is about something you do yourself -- "How do I negotiate with clients?" is definitely not about you, but about interpersonal relations related to work.

Chad

2:58 PM

@jmac Negotaition is a job function though

that makes it off topic. Dealing with people is not a job function

Can I go out on a date with a client is on topic. How do I sell X to my client is off

that is a how do I sell X

enderland

how do i progrm halp me plz

jmac

@Chad I fail to see the distinction, but it'd make a good meta post. Care to make it? It's past midnight here.

A few too many chu-hais to really discuss this in a proper manner.

Chad

We already have that meta post.

From the old faq

"How do I learn to be a..." / "How do I perform the job of a ..."
Questions should be about problems you are encountering or have encountered in the workplace, and not the learning/applying of specific job functions.
"What salary/hourly rate should I look for? How much should I charge for X?"
Questions regarding salary are too localized to the city, timeframe, job sector and specific skills. Answers to these questions become quickly outdated and just aren't helpful to others.
For general salary hunting tips, see How can I determine a reasonable salary to ask for?

it falls into both

jmac

@Chad I disagree that this is asking "how can I run a business?" it is asking a very specific question about a single aspect of the Workplace (specifically negotiating with clients).

Why do we allow people's interview questions? Those would fall under "how do I do the job of a job seeker?"

Chad

@jmac That is a key business function though

there are literally people who make their living telling people how to do it better

jmac

3:05 PM

@Chad Oh, so your criteria is now whether it is key or not? I fail to see how we can judge that.

Chad

Then I agree with Joel this site is crap

jmac

@Chad And there are people who make their life editing resumes. Or negotiating salaries. Should those be off-topic too?

Chad

You are right

jmac

@Chad Now that is just uncalled for.

Chad

It seems really simple

jmac

3:07 PM

Responding to a perfectly reasonable discussion on what belongs off-topic, writing off the entire site as an argument is not necessary or productive.

Chad

If it is something that you are directly paid to do (other than basic manager duties) then it is a job function

jmac

@Chad So now we should only answer resume questions if the person writing the question isn't paid to do it? That seems a bit unenforceable.

@Chad And why are we excluding "basic manager duties" exactly? Those are special somehow?

Chad

My job is to help other people write resumes. How do I do that?

That is off topic

jmac

@Chad That isn't what the question was at all. The question could have been from someone who wasn't in charge of writing the contract, but was handed the responsibility for fulfilling it, and now he has to determine how to deal with requests for more.

Chad

Yes they were designated as on topic because they are intergal in the softskills we are trying to deal with her

jmac

3:09 PM

@Chad I don't think we can judge a question by the author -- that is absolutely not within the realm of our purview. We can judge a question on whether it meets the site guidelines, and I believe it does.

@Chad If you think this is a serious issue, then please, make a meta thread.

Chad

Negoating with clients is different than negotating with an employer

or a car dealer

the clients is a business function.

jmac

Again. I disagree. You can argue here (which will be unproductive, as I am sleeping soon), or you can make a meta thread and get some community input.

I am not the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong, I am sharing my opinion.

Chad

@jmac I am not the person to ask it

jmac

If the community agrees with you, then that's great! We have a consensus.

Why not? You are the one with the issue!

Chad

I do not have a question about what the right answer is

It seems very black and white to me

so my question will suck and be useless

jmac

3:13 PM

The question has 13 upvotes, and only 2 close votes.

The community, as it is, does not agree with you at the moment.

Chad

Are we really wanting to try and judge if a question is good by upvotes?

jmac

No, not at all.

My point is that right now, if I do nothing, I win by default.

The question stays open.

People assume it is on-topic due to the existence of that question

Chad

until a few more people agree with me

jmac

(bear in mind, I agree with that entirely)

but if you make a meta post addressing your issues in a convincing way, you will get the close votes, and raise awareness of the issue

I don't think that suggesting our site is crap because people don't agree with you is the proper way of addressing this, and I'm 99% sure you don't think that is the right way either.

Chad

Until we get a flood of them I do not really feel compelled to fight to close it. Either it gets closed or it is another question that does not belong here that are open. I could probably find 40 worse question with minimal effort

jmac

3:17 PM

I am not saying you need to do anything. You can do nothing. But doing nothing is also tacit consent of the way things are handled, and I really recommend toning down the criticism of the community response in that case.

Chad

@jmac I am not certian what you mean

jmac

@Chad If you strongly disagree (enough to call the community crap in response), then you should do something about it (specifically write a meta post)

@Chad If you weakly agree, then let it slide and see how it ends up. Please don't suggest that we are all wrong (and you are right) by making snide comments on quality.

Chad

@jmac to confirm my opinion of the community?

@jmac good luck then

jmac

@Chad If you think so negatively of the community, that is an entirely separate issue. But SE should not feel like punishment or otherwise cause you so much gnashing of the teeth.

RhysW

I blink and you guys get up to 70 messages! :P

Chad

3:39 PM

So why not just allow people to ask about anything they do at work at all

RhysW

3:54 PM

because, like all SE sites, we prefer expert level questions and answers

bring us your tricky questions, the ones that really make you get stuck and think

not the ones that someone can answer 'ummm, quit?' within a few seconds

enderland

4:29 PM

you know it's friday when chat lights up ;)

RhysW

:P everyone avoiding working you reckon?

30 mins to go

enderland

hahahahha

i'm going to be the biggest pain for IT ever

RhysW

you aren't already?

what are you gonna do? :L

enderland

I just requested a SQL databse to support a tool I have no intentions of being a stop-gap short term tool

enderland

4:52 PM

I like @Oded's driveby question closings

Shiester

Did you guys see the boss' new girlfriend? She'

slike half his age jesus

enderland

I love your random drivebys here too @Shiester lol

Shiester

also I hate these new "ergonomic" keyboards they got us, theyre terrible.

enderland

@Shiester I'm using a non-ergonomic Apple keyboard

HATER GONNA HATE but I love them

RhysW

@Shiester I refuse to use them on principle

enderland

5:01 PM

WIN

Chad

7:09 PM

@enderland ick

enderland

7:57 PM

I think a question I'll ask in the near future is, "how to work on a project which will ultimately eliminate the jobs of several of your coworkers?)

RhysW

8:22 PM

@enderland ooh sounds like you have a story there

enderland

all programmers fundamentally are involved in eliminating jobs

get used to it

RhysW

inevitably yes

yet we are still more liked than tech support

enderland

that's because tech support is, generally it seems, those who drop out of or couldn't hack actual development work (shameless rant against tech support idiots everywhere)

RhysW

mainly its because they are forced into scripts, they cant help you because they have to follow all the steps

jmac

11:17 PM

@enderland People who need tech support are of a kin to the people who ask poor questions on SE. They are less interested in actually understanding the result than getting it. When you are a problem solver, this is the worst position ever because you are faced with problems you can't solve the root cause of (ignorance/apathy), and that's why the quality of people is not the same as developers.

@enderland That is the nature of customer service. Many people like working in the service industry (retail, food) because they feel the benefit they get from making someone happy is more important than solving a problem (and quite frankly, the problem is usually the reason the service industry is so huge). So you'll get more people-oriented types there.

The issue is that companies see tech support as a tech job in many cases, rather than a people-job as it actually is. If you trained customer support in the tech part, but hired for the people skills, you will end up with a much more talented (and happier) tech support squad than if you hire people who have technical skills, and need to teach people-skills to.

RhysW

11:47 PM

@jmac Hi there! this must be prime online hours for you

jmac

@RhysW It is 8:45am on a Saturday. Definitely not my prime time

Wife went to Okinawa, so she had to catch an early flight, waking me up in the process.

RhysW

@jmac Oh perhaps not

@jmac ahh i was gonna say, didnt even know there was an 8am on saturdays!

jmac

There isn't.

Unless I haven't slept yet