/dev/chat - 2014-09-17

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2:34 AM

@Ramesh The security layer in your typical wired Ethernet network is supposed to be physical security. That is, you keep the Ethernet jack behind a locked door.

3:26 AM

A silly question: I ssh to a server and run a job using my work laptop. Now I come home and ssh in with my home laptop but tmux ls shows nothing. Is that expected?

@Heisenberg I would expect the session should show, but personally I haven't used tmux.

Maybe there is an option to show still-joined sessions?

Anyway, time to head to a colo!

I must move a single wire.

Thankfully the 10 or so remote reboots I did on a box, blindly, all went OK. So all I have to do there is move a T1.

Anyway, questions go on the main site (not chat) :-)

8 hours later…

11:58 AM

@derobert if I recall correctly, you are not an emacs person. though i guess you are aware of the new emacs SE proposal.

12:49 PM

@derobert isnt a T1 technically two wires? :)

1:04 PM

T-carrier, sometimes abbreviated as T-CXR, refers to one of several digital transmission systems developed by Bell Labs. T-carriers are used in North America, South Korea, and Kyoto. The first of these was Transmission System 1 (T-1), which Bell Labs introduced in 1962. T-1 greatly increased the number of telephone calls the telephone network was capable of transmitting at one time. == Transmission System 1 (T-1) == T-1 is a hardware specification for telecommunications trunking. A trunk is a single transmission channel between two points on the network: each point is either a switching center...

DS1 signals are interconnected typically at Central Office locations at a common metallic cross-connect point known as a DSX-1. When a DS1 is transported over metallic outside plant cable, the signal travels over conditioned cable pairs known as a T1 span.

This seems like it's a fake

theverge.com/2014/9/16/6256729/…

user image

@casey no, it's technically 4 wires (2 pairs). I should have said cable, of course. And it was over CAT5, so I actually moved 8 wires :-)

1:28 PM

@derobert so, no on emacs then?

@FaheemMitha there is no m-x move-cat5-utp AFAIK

@derobert Huh?

isn't m-x how you run named emacs commands?

meta-x ?

@derobert :) couldnt recall if a T1 went over a twister pair or two of them

@derobert Not all of them. And it's customizable up the wazoo. Is vim customizable?

1:31 PM

yes

huh

I see Gilles finally got around to committing to the Emacs proposal.

@derobert so, that means you will not be committing to the emacs site, I guess...

you can change vim's keybindings pretty extensively. Or write your own functions to modify text, in several programming languages. Including all off the major scripting languages.

Commitment numbers still climbing. Up to 256 now.

@derobert Oh.

@casey i think you committed a couple of days ago, right?

@FaheemMitha vim is quite customizable. vimscript is terrible compared to elisp, but these days you can write vim plugins in python or ruby or other languages.

@casey Do you use vim too? That's still Bram's vim, right?

1:36 PM

@FaheemMitha I use both

@casey Oh. That's unusual.

I use emacs for a lot of stuff and I use vim for short quick edits and anytime I'm remote

@casey I see. That's flexible. Why anytime you're remote? They can both be run on the console.

@FaheemMitha Most machines I remote into do not have emacs installed.

yes, I know I can open remote files in emacs locally, but I typically have a shell open on the remote host and its quicker to just edit in that shell

also I'm much quicker and more efficient with my vim commands than emacs

though I am working on that

but that comes from 17 years of vi/vim use and only about 6 months of serious emacs usage

2:12 PM

Now to figure out what caused monitoring on one of my VPNs to break last night with that firewall upgrade...

2:35 PM

@casey That's surprising. I thought emacs was a standard. and vim is more commonly installed?

@FaheemMitha absolutely. vim or at least vi is just about universally installed

[39623.848062] martian source 172.16.12.28 from 172.16.1.62, on dev office_vpn3
[39624.848204] martian source 172.16.12.28 from 172.16.1.62, on dev office_vpn3
[39625.848357] martian source 172.16.12.28 from 172.16.1.62, on dev office_vpn3

these days some linux distros ditch both in favor of nano, but aside from those and especially when you get into the unixes, vi is always there

... well, that explains why the VPN monitoring isn't working. Odd that its Martian, though, as rp_filter is set to 0....

@casey Oh, bummer.

@casey but is vi necessarily vim?

2:37 PM

@FaheemMitha no, you can bet on vi, but not necessarily vim

@casey oh. in that case, whose vim is it?

Ok, now that's odd. I changed rp_filter to 2 (loose filtering) and it started accepting the traffic. Changed it back to 0, and it continues to accept it...

vim was created by Bill Joy many years ago. But it is rather unlikely he still maintains any version. vim is the standard now afaik.

Changed it to 1, it continues. But not from a new machine. Same with 0.

@FaheemMitha vi was created by Bill Joy in 1976, vim was written by Bram Moolenaar in 1991

well, publically released in 1991

2:41 PM

@casey Right. So, when people use vi (not vim), what are they using? Something very old and unmaintained, or something currently maintained?

/me thinks 2.6.32 just has an rp_filter bug...

@derobert sadly, there is probably nobody expert enough to help you. assuming you are looking for help.

does anyone know how to query for all software that satisfies an alternative?

Oh, I suspect the expert in this subject is 'git log' ...

3

if they are using vi, they are using vi or an implementation of the POSIX standard that defines vi. I have no idea when the latest release of vi was

@FaheemMitha apt-cache showpkg ?

2:43 PM

@derobert Not my idea of good help.

@derobert say we are looking for everything that provides vi.

@FaheemMitha oh, through alternatives? That's a good question. Don't know off the top of my head.

@derobert ok. is vi an alternative thing, though?

Other than obvious imprecise answers like apt-cache search '\bvi\b'

root@orwell:/home/faheem# apt-cache policy vim
vim:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 2:7.3.547-7
Version table:
2:7.4.430-1 0
50 http://debian.lcs.mit.edu/debian/ testing/main amd64 Packages
50 http://debian.lcs.mit.edu/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
2:7.3.547-7 0
500 http://debian.lcs.mit.edu/debian/ wheezy/main amd64 Packages
2:7.2.445+hg~cb94c42c0e1a-1 0
500 http://debian.lcs.mit.edu/debian/ squeeze/main amd64 Packages

@FaheemMitha yeah.

anthony@Zia:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Jun 11  2010 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi

2:45 PM

is there a lot of difference between the stable and testing versions?

@derobert ok

@FaheemMitha busybox implements vi

might be a reasonable question for the site, actually. let me google it.

So of course update-alternatives will happily tell you the alternatives that are installed, but it doesn't know the ones in the archive that aren't installed.

@derobert True.

Aha! @FaheemMitha it turns out there is an expert on this rp_filter behavior I'm seeing.

That expert, of course, being Google

2:47 PM

Hmm, nothing obvious comes to mind. Let's see if there are any actual Debian experts lurking here. More expert than us, that is.

2.6.32 rp_filter turned up spinics.net/lists/linux-net/msg17162.html

@FaheemMitha vi is a lot like TeX though in some ways. Not many people use Bill Joy's vi but instead use vim, and a lot of people aren't using Knuth's TeX but instead are using LaTeX.

@derobert Marginally better than git, I suppose. Certainly friendlier

@casey right

there is also something called elvis...

Huh, not in testing/unstable. Wonder what happened. Maybe dead.

elvis is a vi clone that has some additions, just as vim is, but its certainly not as popular as vim

apparently slackware ships elvis as the default vi implementation, or at least did in the past

@casey Looks pretty inactive -> elvis.the-little-red-haired-girl.org

@casey Oh. Wonder how many people are using slackware these days.

2:50 PM

@derobert hey, at least yours isn't as weird as mine... pinging 4.2.2.2 without answer :P

If you have a choice of vi implementation, there is really no reason to choose something other than vim, imho

@Braiam well, that just means your interwebs are down :-P

@casey Sure. I've never used vi though. I tried once, i got freaked out by the mode thing.

wait, I can ping 8.8.8.8

I hear it is a super-efficient editor to use, though.

2:51 PM

traceroute?

@Braiam this is the DR. maybe it is just a screwed up network. If it is anything like India.

@FaheemMitha model editing is nice. It lets you do sequence of keystrokes rather than modifier heavy key combos.

@casey Right. How is the emacs vi emulation? viper?

mtr --report 4.2.2.2
Start: Wed Sep 17 10:52:30 2014
HOST: bp                       Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
  1.|-- dsldevice.lan    0.0%  10  4.2   2.3   1.7   4.2   1.0
  2.|-- ???                    100.0  10  0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
  3.|-- 172.23.24.25            0.0%  10  6.6   7.2   6.5   8.9   0.8
  4.|-- xe-5-0-1.GW1.MIA19.ALTER. .0%  10 36.5  37.0  36.4  38.4   0.6
  5.|-- 0.xe-7-3-0.BR3.ATL4.ALTER  0.0%  10 97.5  60.6  55.8  97.5  13.0
  6.|-- ???                    100.0    10    0.0 0.0 0.0   0.0   0.0

So you recommend people learn vi?

@derobert how do i get the information from elvis, say, that it provides the vi alternative?

@Braiam do DR ISPs suck? Are they full of clueless people, and have no concept of customer service?

2:54 PM

@derobert not my fault

@FaheemMitha normally, yes

wants @Caleb to be his ISP

@Braiam That's what I thought. That certainly describes Indian ISPs. They're terrible.

@FaheemMitha e.g. copy a whole line and paste below it you can do in emacs as "C-a C-Space C-e M-w <ret> C-y" or "C-a C-k C-k C-y C-y" (or some other combo of many chars), where vi is just <ESC>yyp

it goes to Atlanta, then into a blackhole

@casey let me try

though in emacs some things can be easy as well. E.g. to erase a word from the point to the end of the word to replace it, you can do in emacs as M-d vs vim <ESC>cw

though of course the <ESC> is only needed if you were insert mode

2:57 PM

@casey yes, apparently those are the emacs keystrokes. I didn't know them, but my fingers did.

Though I think it is alt-w.

Yes, alt.

hang on, that is the same as meta. sorry.

I wrote M-w

:)

@casey right, sorry.

and repeating things is easier in vim

I think of it as alt, not meta. I guess I'm not a true emacser. or whatever they call themselves.

either things that take a repeat count

2:59 PM

@casey can you do command recall?

in the command mode (or whatever it is called)?

how do i get into the typing things mode?

e.g. 2yy in vim will copy 2 lines vs in emacs needing C-u <n>

@casey should i install the testing version or stable version, or does it not matter?

@FaheemMitha . will repeate the last thing you did. if it was an ex command (:) you can use : then up arrow

I don't particularly like emacs key bindings, but am too lazy to change them.

@casey ok.

@casey That's a bit complicated. Why not just C-k C-y Enter C-y ?

3:01 PM

so, stable or testing?

@FaheemMitha typing things mode "insert mode" can be entered with i, a, c<stuff> or other ways

@FaheemMitha i dont think it matters

7.4.430 vs 7.3.547

@casey ok, let me install.

@terdon I'm assuming the point isn't already at the beginning of the line

@terdon looking forward to the new emacs site?

and yea, I suppose you don't need to kill the newline with 2 C-k's but I'm also assuming I am pasting somewhere else

3:03 PM

@casey Still, C-a C-K C-Y <enter> C-Y.

@FaheemMitha Not all that excited but sure :)

@FaheemMitha if its installed, update-alternatives --list vi

@terdon :-)

@terdon my emacs-fu is not as strong as my vi-fu

@derobert no, i mean directly from package information.

@casey if i just want to type stuff normally, how do i get into that mode?

@FaheemMitha i

3:05 PM

esc is to get into the command mode, is suppose?

yes

@casey oh

@FaheemMitha vimtutor is the vim version of emacs C-h t

thats a command run from the shell by the way unlike emacs' tutorial

@casey ok. there are no visual indicators which mode it is in, which would he helpful.

@FaheemMitha there should be on the bottom line or two

3:09 PM

no, actually there is an INSERT at bottom. is that it?

yes

ok.

it'll say INSERT, APPEND, REPLACE, VISUAL, NORMAL depending on what mode you are in

so, from regular editing. to save i do esc then w?

but there is indicatiion a save happened.

@FaheemMitha Don't think you can.

3:10 PM

@casey if it hit esc then the bottom is completely blank

@derobert Oh? Strange.

<esc>:w

@FaheemMitha normal mode may not annunciate, i don't recall as my vim doesnt look standard anymore

@casey Normal mode doesn't.

@casey oh. and the : means?

a different mode, perhaps?

and writing should put "test" 1L, 13C written on the bottom

: are ex commands

@derobert "normal" is command mode?

@casey ex commands?

3:12 PM

@FaheemMitha yeah. When you hit ESC from insert mode, you get to normal mode.

@casey yes, i get -> "foo" 7L, 63C written

@FaheemMitha ex is an older Unix editor. A non-interactive one.

@FaheemMitha thats your confirmation that you saved the file

@derobert i see. and there are a bunch of modes? @casey do you use viper in emacs?

@casey Right.

@FaheemMitha I don't

3:13 PM

@casey ok. why not?

@FaheemMitha there are a bunch of modes, but normal and insert are the big two

@FaheemMitha yeah, there are several. Mostly, you use normal and the insert-like modes (insert, replace, etc.)

some people use visual mode a lot, but I never use it

I use it a fair bit

@FaheemMitha I'm trying to learn to do things the emacs way

but I may give in and use it

3:13 PM

@derobert ok. how does one get to replace mode?

as I'm just too used to certain vim things

press R

@casey That's probably a good idea.

Ok

well R, r just replaces one char and doesnt enter the mode

Oooh, I just found out about gR from the docs. Will save time when doing ASCII art :-)

@FaheemMitha vimtutor is a good idea, but if you want a list of all the different modes and how to switch... :help mode-switching (prefix with control-o if in insert mode)

3:18 PM

@FaheemMitha the next things to learn in vi are your motions, and there are many

This looks like a dup of this one. Any comments?

@Ramesh They're close but I think not dupes. The newer one wants the size of each file while the older gives the sum.

I would say they're related but one's asking for a tool and the other's asking for a way to calculate it. I'd reference them in each other but leave them as discrete Q's. This is just my opinion so I'd see what others read on it is as well.

3:49 PM

You know it's a slow day when we feel the need to provide 8 answers to this Q

@slm "this"?

3

Q: Writing a script and executing it in vi

I have several text files. All these text files need to undergo a set to editing which can be done in vi. I want to automate this. vi has several commands for replacement. Suppose the text files need to undergo the following replacements: replace boy by Boy: %s/boy/Boy/g replace girl by Girl: %...

hang on

@FaheemMitha you need to ask your find-vi-alternatives question

@derobert ok, thanks.

@casey What are motions?

@derobert Indeed.

Sorry guys, was afk. Got called away.

@FaheemMitha as long as you reply using the reply button, you don't need to apologize... I go AWOL at any moment without notice

4:01 PM

@Braiam Fair enough. I like to give people notice if possible, though.

@derobert I think the wording could be improved -> unix.stackexchange.com/q/156069

@FaheemMitha There are a bunch... :help motion.txt or, better yet, let vimtutor introduce you to the common ones.

@derobert ok. and i type vimtutor to get going?

Yes, I see I do.

Yep. And it should tell you what to do from there.

"satisfy an alternative" isn't quite the mot juste, but I'm not sure what else to write.

provide maybe?

4:10 PM

@derobert ok

@derobert ok

@FaheemMitha You should mention the "alternatives system" explicitly. Something like "Debian has a system that provides alternative commands for certain tasks. How can I get the full list of possible alternatives for a given task?"

Also, I don't think there are any "vim alternatives" are there? Don't you mean "editor" alternatives?

Ah. No, indeed there is, OK.

@terdon Hmm, ok. @derobert thoughts on how to phrase that?

Also, @FaheemMitha you might want to specify that you want all the available alternatives in the repositories. Not the ones installed since you can get those with update-alternatives:

> When using the --config option, update-alternatives will list all of
the choices for the link group of which given name is the master alter‐
native name. The current choice is marked with a '*'. You will then be
prompted for your choice regarding this link group. Depending on the
choice made, the link group might no longer be in auto mode. You will
need to use the --auto option in order to return to the automatic mode
(or you can rerun --config and select the entry marked as automatic).

I think I'll just point to the wiki

@terdon Isn't that understood?

@FaheemMitha Not necessarily. I did but I knew about them. Since alternatives is a perfectly normal word, someone might read it as such.

4:15 PM

@terdon Ok

@terdon better?

@derobert there may be no out-of-the-box way to do it. probably one could script something, perhaps using UDD or similar.

4:35 PM

@FaheemMitha Much!

1 hour later…

5:41 PM

@FaheemMitha for moving the cursor ("point" in emacs-speak) around.

@casey Oh, I see.

just as in emacs, there are much more efficient ways to move around a file than up,down,left,right

5:58 PM

wtf?

1

Q: desktop environment makes my router crash

I'm a beginner Arch linux user. Last week I decided to install it on my desktop too (Windows 8 dual boot) but for some reasons it makes my router go crazy! I have set it up with ethernet connection and here is the key: it works fine until you start a desktop environment. I use GDM as my desktop ...

arch-linux router

@casey Even in emacs, I don't really know how to move around. Or to be more precise, my fingers don't know.

2 hours later…

7:57 PM

@terdon I suspect it's NetworkManager. Left a comment to that effect.

@slm so, are you joining the new emacs site too? I didn't see your name...

I don't use emacs, I use vim

8:28 PM

@slm ok

1 hour later…

9:47 PM

he's back

-2

A: Password-less ssh authentication refuses to work

You have to change /etc/ssh/sshd_config to : PermitEmptyPasswords yes Of course, it's very dangerous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After change reload your ssh service.

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