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9:00 PM
@derobert wow. I'll keep that in mind the next time I encounter a failed selftest, and then I'll try an md resync
@derobert another thing. Will RAID edition hard disks behave differently in this scenario? I assume an RE disk would not keep a sector pending, so that md can handle the situation without a complete check?
@derobert another thing. Will RAID edition hard disks behave differently in this scenario? I assume an RE disk would not keep a sector pending, so that md can handle the situation without a complete check?
 
A RAID edition HDD should actually generate more pending sectors...
The normal error recovery sequence goes: read sector, notice checksum doesn't match, ecc can't recover, attempt re-read, repeat (several times...)
This takes a while
The RAID disks, at least if you turn on the limited error recovery time, will do a lot fewer rereads
The eventual end of that error sequence is either "finally managed to read sector, attempt to write back correct data, re-read, if not correct reallocate" or "give error to OS, mark sector pending"
And, ideally, upon receiving a read error, the RAID will fairly soon send back a write with the correct data (mdadm does this, for quite a while)
 
@derobert Ah, I think I understand
 
At which point, the disk will clear the pending sector.
 
So md would solve this practically on its own, but only if it's actually a read from md that causes the sector to go pending. When it's the selftest, we're back at having to force an md check
 
Yes, if its a selftest or an surface scan.
Because either of those is handled entirely by the drive's firmware, without OS involvement.
 
9:09 PM
I believe that our servers have both selftests (-t long) and RAID checks scheduled, so ideally, it just works out
 
Yeah, the RAID checks will clear any pending sectors, by rewriting them
RAID checks are important, because otherwise you will hit bad blocks on recovery. Which is very bad.
(recovery as in, after you've replaced a failed disk)
 
@derobert yes, that would be unfortunate ^^
 
Yes. It's also one of the reasons RAID5 sucks very badly with big disks and/or a lot of them.
 
@derobert 800 servers, and I think not a single one of them is running RAID5. We're in the RAID1 camp :)
 
I'm guessing that means you have no more than three disks per server :-P
Most here is 24. Its mostly RAID10.
 
9:15 PM
@derobert every server has two disks
Those are customer servers though, not a server farm.
Each server is located on the customer site.
 
That sounds like a PITA to manage, depending on how many sites that is. "Who wants to go to site #431 and replace a disk today?"
 
We resell servers from a big German computer manufacturer; they are all sold with 24 hours on-site support. When we see that a disk is failing, we send a mail to the manufacturer, and they send one of their local partners to fix it.
Our customers are schools btw :)
 
Ah, nice solution, outsource it. I'm guessing you must have to replace a disk at least monthly.
Probably more.
 
Yeah, I'd say more
We've had four defective servers in september; two of them suspected mainboard issues, and the other two failing hard disks.
 
Wow, I've hardly ever seen mainboards fail. Power supplies, OTOH...
 
9:23 PM
@slm you centos guy?
 
I guess the only thing that I haven't seen fail yet are CPUs
 
no, who is it?
 
@MartinvonWittich I haven't seen a CPU fail yet, either.
Intel and AMD seem able to handle QC. At least for CPUs.
Bad disks, bad optical drives, bad mainboards, bad RAM, bad power supplies, bad video cards, bad cables, bad disk backplanes... but never a bad CPU. Pretty amazing, actually.
 
Well, once you've ensured that it's working completely, there probably isn't much in a CPU that can break :)
 
I'd think that about RAM too... but I've seen that!
 
9:26 PM
hm, right. Hadn't thought about that.
That would be an interesing question for serverfault
 
Have you ever seen a CPU fail, without an obvious cause (e.g., heat sink fell off)?
 
Not personally, no. I've read about electromigration though which caused a lot of overclocked Pentium 4 to fail
 
Yeah. I bet overclockers see plenty fail.
 
well, this one Intel design was apparently especially prone to that. It was called "Sudden Northwood Death Syndrome"
 
Hm. I've never actually run an overclocked system. I can't imagine overclocking a P4 was easy. I mean, those suckers ran hot, even when underclocked....
 
9:31 PM
@derobert just read through your NTP outline, looks great!
 
you're thinking of the prescotts, another P4 design
 
you're right, I probably am
 
@derobert perhaps a short discussion of the accuracy limitations, can't do milliseconds because of the time needed to process the request?
 
yeah, there should be something in there about the accuracy goal of this discussion—as its not going to cover PPS, frequency standards, etc.
 
I'd love to help but my knowledge of NTP can be summed up by 'some service that lets you set the time from internet servers" so can't really contribute much.
 
9:38 PM
@terdon No problem. You can help out by giving some things you've always wondered about NTP. Or that have caused you to curse when the magic didn't work.
 
Now that I might be able to do :)
 
I guess what most people (including me) expect from NTP is that it "just works". So I'm especially curious if there's a way to ensure that ntpd will keep the time in sync regardless of big discrepancies between the hardware clock and the current time. I'm looking forward to the parts "why jumps are bad", and then "when you do it anyway" :)
 
@MartinvonWittich OK. I'll make sure to come up with some examples for those.
One that comes to mind immediately is cron—jumping the clock could skip jobs, or worse run them twice
 
@derobert I think though that in most cases that's very much preferable to having a clock that grossly out-of-sync
 
yes, that's when you do it anyway
 
9:50 PM
I do see the point though that ntpd wouldn't do this by default, in cases where it's dangerous
 
(well, most of the time—some apps are sensitive enough that you'd rather spend a week adjusting the clock)
 
Actually, will manually changing the time (using normal 'date', or NTP or whatever) cause a cron job to run? As long as you don't set it to the actual minute the cronjob is scheduled for, I would not expect it to affect the cron daemon.
 
@terdon if you have a job schedules for 03:07, and the clock is currently 03:10, it's probably already run. If you set the clock back to 02:57 (because the clock was wrong), that job is going to run again
 
@terdon only if you set it to a date that's before when the cronjob is scheduled, I'd say
exactly
 
OK, back yes, I was thinking forward.
 
9:52 PM
The other way around will skip the job
 
Exactly
OK, clear now.
 
slm
10:04 PM
@Braiam - yeah I use CentOS daily
servers, desktops, etc.
 
umm... think this one is off topic in AskUbuntu... askubuntu.com/q/349228/169736 is about being able to write centos dvd's into a usb
 
10:45 PM
tee-hee:
> So you're missing something else. My crystal ball has tucked away for the night, so if you want help finding the problem in that file, you're going to have to post it. – Gilles 3 mins ago
 
slm
11:31 PM
@terdon - what's this gilles comment about?
 
@slm this:
0
Q: cut/copy/paste from tmux running under evilvrt

user205787I'm trying to cut + copy + paste in tmux using 'evilvrt' under debian testing and using xclip, but the situation is compounded by me having an alias set up for xclip, which I've now commented out, but when I've restarted .bash_aliases its failing saying -bash: .bashrc: line 385: syntax error: une...

The OP wanted us to debug his .bashrc without seeing the file.
 
slm
@Braiam - uh yeah the first sentence: "I am trying to install centos onto another one of my machines, and I am new to Ubuntu. When I downloaded centos the operating system came as two .iso images. So far I have been unable to figure out how to mount the two images onto a single 32gb flash drive to do a full install on the"
did you tell him bye
 
@terdon he's missing a fi..
@slm huh?
but it's possible...?
 
@Braiam he has various problems, just writing up an answer now.
 
@terdon slm beat up to it
but you said various problems, slm only pointed 1, lets see :)
 
11:40 PM
@Braiam see my answer for the other one
 
shouldn't we add the link into the question?
 
What link?
Ah, to the .bashrc? Not worth it really, this will soon be closed as 'too localized'
 
@terdon there is not 'too localized' close reason anymore... :(
 
Yes there is, it is under 'off topic'
 
nope...
 
11:46 PM
Yes, I just voted to close.
It's just not called "too localized":
Questions describing a problem that can't be reproduced and seemingly went away on its own (or went away when a typo was fixed) are off-topic as they are unlikely to help future readers.
Sorry, that's what I meant, its what 'too localized' changed to in the Great SE Close Vote System revamp.
 
slm
where is the too localized option in the flags?
 
> You close them as Off Topic, and you pick a reason that fits the question. There is no one OT reason that fits all valid Too Localized questions.
0
A: So...as what do we close too localized questions now?

Martijn PietersFrom the post you link to: 5(A). "Too Localized" is no longer necessary since the specific off-topic reasons now address its main use case. (new) Too Localized was, by far, the most misused close reason in our surveys, with both Community Managers and Moderators deeming over 50% of rando...

 
slm
@Braiam - the Q about CentOS on AU
 
you could vote down if you believe he didn't really try to fix the issue or whatever, but as I see it is on-topic
 
@Braiam yes, fair enough, its just that the result is that the questions I used to close as 'too localized' I now close as 'non-reproducible'.
You're right, it's not the same thing but that's how I have it in my head :) Sorry
 
slm
11:54 PM
yeah where did the too localized option go? I looked for it today for another Q where the guy didn't close his case with a esac
 
@slm nope, I have it to vote it as OT, but if you know a method to stuck 2 dvd images in linux, welcome you be
@slm dupe this one to that one... :P
 
@slm to my mind it's been replaced with this:
Questions describing a problem that can't be reproduced and seemingly went away on its own (or went away when a typo was fixed) are off-topic as they are unlikely to help future readers.
It's the same basic idea.
 
slm
ok i saw that one but it didn't see apt, will use it
@Braiam yeah i thought it might be the same guy, it isn't
 
@terdon this could be considered a typo too? askubuntu.com/q/342179/169736
was a silly error in syntax, but it's not too localized nor went away on its own... :(
I think my point is getting across right?
 
@Braiam true but that was an error in a relatively obscure syntax requirement of certain sources.list setting
It was not a bash syntax error.
Your question (especially your answer) will be useful to others. Pointing out that you have a missing 'fi' at the end of bashrc, not so much.
 
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