The Bikeshed

Mnementh

9:00 PM

But still people could use your old code under the old license

copyleft or permissive doesn't matter

Martijn

yeah but no :) If it was originally permissive, you could always switch to copyleft

whether or not you are the owner

if it was originally copyleft, you can only go permissive if you are the owner

Michael Schumacher

We have to be very careful with the word 'use' and 'user' for licensing questions

Mnementh

@Martijn Yes, that's right.

Michael Schumacher

Do we have any experts with a law background, or is everyone just uninformed programmers (saw this complaint in a comment somehere)?

Martijn

I'm an uninformed programmer myself

Zizouz212

9:07 PM

@MichaelSchumacher I didn't succeed, I didn't even manage in figuring out how it works

ArtOfCode

I live with 2 lawyers but you couldn't call me expert

Martijn

Challenge accepted

@ArtOfCode, you're an expert

Michael Schumacher

@Zizouz212 so you haven't use irc before?

ArtOfCode

@Martijn Not really I'm afraid

Zizouz212

I tried, but got no where with it

ArtOfCode

9:08 PM

I just use the web interfaces people provide :)

Martijn

@ArtOfCode maybe not, but I can still call you one :))

Michael Schumacher

What did you try?

ArtOfCode

>>points give Martijn 17

Zizouz212

I don't remember exactly, it asked me for a username and it say something about connecting to the fsf, then it brought me to a log style page that just said the name I entered in

Martijn

@Zizouz212 you managed to connect

I jumped on as well, and just saw you leave

Zizouz212

9:10 PM

I don't remember clearly, but I think I did

Martijn

there is an input box at the bottem where you can type :)

Zizouz212

There is?

Michael Schumacher

Oh, did you expect something like this page?

Martijn

yes

it's one line tall

Mnementh

@Martijn If I follow TVs example, then everyone is an expert who wants to say somethign about a topic, but has no formal qualification

Zizouz212

9:11 PM

Not exactly, but at least something that isn't a blank page with times new roman text :P

Michael Schumacher

IRC is text

IRC users like it because of this

Zizouz212

really?

It was like a logging page

Michael Schumacher

You can use it from anything that can display text

Zizouz212

For like debugging with a bunch of information

Michael Schumacher

Why did you not reply to my comment on that question?

Martijn

9:12 PM

kiwiirc.com/client might be more user-friendly Zizouz

Zizouz212

Which question?

Michael Schumacher

With like 'I have no clue how irc works at alk?'

Martijn

or at least visually more appealing

Zizouz212

I'm so confused now...

Martijn

I feel so old now...

Mnementh

9:14 PM

I played text-only games - completely without graphics, Only telnet needed to play. And fantasy.

Michael Schumacher

Let me find that question, takes a moment on mobile

ArtOfCode

@Martijn did you just join the #fsf channel?

Mnementh

I also admit I've read books completely without pictures ;-)

Martijn

yeah, to try out wikiirc web, which I never used, but I'm just parrotting that it's more user friendly than the freenode web client ;)

Zizouz212

parroting :)

Michael Schumacher

9:17 PM

It was the 'how do we neutralize... meta question

Zizouz212

Let me check it out

Michael Schumacher

I am very hesitant to bring up the OS.SE on #fsf

Zizouz212

@MichaelSchumacher I think I missed that comment

@MichaelSchumacher I think let's not talk to the community there, but rather to their directors and such. @ArtOfCode has already contacted them

Martijn

RMS owns a katana. Not that I mean anything with that

just saying

Zizouz212

What's a katana?

ArtOfCode

9:19 PM

....

Martijn

Katana

Historically, katana (刀) were one of the traditionally made Japanese swords (日本刀, nihontō) that were used by the samurai of feudal Japan. Modern versions of the katana are sometimes made using non-traditional materials and methods. The katana is characterized by its distinctive appearance: a curved, slender, single-edged blade with a circular or squared guard and long grip to accommodate two hands. == History == The production of swords in Japan is divided into specific time periods: Jokoto (ancient swords, until around 900 A.D.) Koto (old swords from around 900–1596) Shinto (new swords 1596–1780...

Zizouz212

Oh god, I'm scared...

ArtOfCode

The supposedly famous japanese samurai sword

Michael Schumacher

I am mailing with rms because of the recent Source Gorge issue

Forge

Zizouz212

That's scary

Michael Schumacher

9:20 PM

Sorry, typing on mobile

Martijn

While RMS does own a katana, that's a story in and of itself, and my comment was tongue in cheek before people get the wrong idea

Michael Schumacher

Therefore I know that the FSF will take their time with formal replies

The usual vocal crowd in #FSF has very strong opinions

Zizouz212

Can I see the site again? I'll try my luck and see if I can get anywhere

Michael Schumacher

Much stronger and strict than the FSF itself, sometimes

webchat.freenode.net/?channels=fsf

Martijn

or kiwiirc.com/client

Zizouz212

9:24 PM

@MichaelSchumacher There's no one there...

Is that you?

Martijn

your tests succeeded Ziz

Michael Schumacher

Plenty of people there

Zizouz212

There's two other people... Anything that I should say?

There's 20 other people there?!?!?

Martijn

you could, or you could lurk a bit

I'd advice the latter, to get a bit of a grip on the social interactions and expectations of the medium

Zizouz212

God this is weird...

People are questioning my hi...

Michael Schumacher

9:26 PM

@Zizouz212 you should read up on IRC a bit, maybe the Wikipedia articles

Mnementh

Zizouz212

I feel really dumb with this...

Martijn

also: xkcd.com/344

Zizouz212

@Mnementh lol

Michael Schumacher

Oh my, OS.SE will be so much of a generation clash...

Martijn

9:27 PM

Zizouz212

lol

Michael Schumacher

@Zizouz212 read the jargon guide, smart questions guide, etc asap

Zizouz212

I think I'm done with IRC, a little off for my taste

Michael Schumacher

Otherwise this will be very painful

Zizouz212

Maybe i'll try later

People were questioning my greetings...

Martijn

9:29 PM

catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html is a good thing to read

Mnementh

@Martijn Oh, you cite esr, you MUST be old! ;-)

Martijn

not even that old

mind you, not that young either

still young enough to worry about being old

Michael Schumacher

From my pov, chats like this website are odd, actually close to abominations :)

Zizouz212

Seriously guys?

Martijn

+1 Michael

I guess it works

Mnementh

9:31 PM

@Martijn lol ... you must be me then ,-)

Martijn

but it's so odd

Michael Schumacher

@Zizouz212 people were just greeting back

Zizouz212

> how hi?

Michael Schumacher

This was because of your two lines

Zizouz212

I put two lines?

Martijn

9:32 PM

as the kind people of 4chan say: lurk moar. It's never enough

Zizouz212

I only said Hi!

Michael Schumacher

Basically just continuations of your ? And !

Zizouz212

I don't like this thing...

Michael Schumacher

Don't get this wrong, but some of the reactions I got on OS.SE so far make soon much more sense now....

Zizouz212

What do you mean?

Michael Schumacher

9:35 PM

s/soon/soo/

Zizouz212

oh

Michael Schumacher

Oh my.... when the FLOSS community gets there in public beta...

Read. A lot. Try to get up to speed in how these people think.

Zizouz212

Parsing a page on this site takes a while...

Martijn

is emacs or vim better for open source development ;)

Zizouz212

I wouldn't start that...

Martijn

9:38 PM

you make it sound much worse than it is though IMO Michael

Michael Schumacher

You know that preparing for the worst is a good approach, right?

Mnementh

@Martijn LOL, this fight is long over. Now it's Eclipse vs. KDevelop

Michael Schumacher

I am exaggerating a bit, maybe

Zizouz212

Does anyone know if there's some StackExchange api so that I can access post data? Or even simpler: Does anyone know how I can access post data?

Martijn

@Mnementh I just Sublime. Which is non-free by the way

hides

google told me api.stackexchange.com

Michael Schumacher

9:44 PM

How would you react to 'please edit Linux to gnu/linux' though, for example?

Zizouz212

Oh perfect, but they deal in json, ugh -_-

Martijn

cross that bridge when we get there, if there is too much disagreement, throw it up on meta

Michael Schumacher

btst, and btdt for www.gimp.org upon request by the fsf

Martijn

what else would you have expected Ziz

Zizouz212

Something that's not json?

or xml?

or anything that I might have to parse?

Mnementh

9:46 PM

@Zizouz212 binary?

Zizouz212

@Mnementh Don't push it...

Michael Schumacher

Flash

Martijn

there are things you don't have to parse?

Zizouz212

Maybe Python? Or Java?

Martijn

what a time to be alive

Zizouz212

9:46 PM

I'm sorry...

I guess 15 year olds aren't "sophisticated"

Especially about programming...

Martijn

well, fundamentally, you have to send something over the wire, and read what's sent over the wire

and parse it

there is no way around it

Mnementh

@Martijn Challenge accepted

Martijn

I knew I would regret saying that

take your capt'n proto and your raw c structs elsewhere will you!

Mnementh

You could have some binary data that exactly matches the representation of your internal program structures with a chosen compiler - and you copy the read stuff simply over that datastructure

You have a completely unmaintainable program - but no need to parse :-)

Gilles

@Zizouz212 what do you want to do with it?

Zizouz212

9:51 PM

Make the bot :)

Gilles

and when it comes to parsing, json is about the simplest you can get

Zizouz212

Oh well, it could just be first time fears... :)

Gilles

and there's a library for that in just about any programming language

Zizouz212

Well, I'll see what it is

I'm used to pickle :)

Mnementh

By the way, json.org lists a lot of libraries for nearly all languages

What do you use Zizouz? Python? 6 libraries

Zizouz212

9:52 PM

There's a builtin for json apparently

Gilles

@Zizouz212 which one?

Zizouz212

There's more than one builtin?

Gilles

many languages use the word “pickle” for their own serialization format

which you won't find anywhere outside that programming language

Zizouz212

Just the builtin python one?

Gilles

are you programming in Python?

Zizouz212

9:53 PM

Yep :)

Gilles

then why are you complaining about json? It comes with a json parser

Mnementh

I see, json.org also lists for Python the standard lib

Gilles

import json; data = json.loads(string)

Zizouz212

I didn't realize there was a library at first, I find that with a lot of python, you need to get external libraries.

Gilles

@Zizouz212 ????

Michael Schumacher

9:55 PM

@Zizouz212 there are people who will be pretty annoyed if you reject something prematurely - json in this case - and it then becomes apparent that you do not have much experience with it

Martijn

you're cute Ziz :)

Zizouz212

I don't have much experience...

Gilles

that's a big advantage of python, it has one of the best standard libraries around

Zizouz212

:)

What?

Martijn

at least one of the biggest standard libraries

Michael Schumacher

9:55 PM

Then tell them that you do not have much experience

Zizouz212

I don't know, it could be an assumption after doing java in school...

Martijn

remember that a standard library is just some code some dude(tte) wrote though

Mnementh

@Gilles import antigravity:

Martijn

it's not made from magic pixie dust, just from source code

Gilles

@Martijn I wrote “best” and not “biggest” for a reason

Zizouz212

9:57 PM

Oh well...

Gilles

e.g. Java has a big standard library, but to do anything with it you need to instantiate the singleton factory that lets you build a metaclass generator for the data object builder

Mnementh

@Gilles closing that comment as opinion-based

Zizouz212

lol

Martijn

java stdlib is scary

Zizouz212

I've been programming for about a year and a half, of which this semester I did java in school...

Martijn

9:58 PM

I dare you to find any invariant about string.split in java

Zizouz212

In fact, speaking of school, i've been motivated to make a better version of microsoft paint in java :) (I might do some parts in python since swing is pretty ugly though...)

Mnementh

@Martijn java stdlib is one of the oldest big std-libs, many things we know these days better

Martijn

@Mnementh yeah, there are reasons. But that dare stands. Find a single invariant, and I'm likely able to give you a counterexample

Gilles

@Martijn returns a string array?

ok, it can run out of memory

Martijn

nope, it can throw

for other reasons than OOM

ratchet freak

10:00 PM

thread death?

Mnementh

@Martijn nausea ;-)

Martijn

:D

Gilles

ah, Java is from the “Unicode is 16 bits” days, isn't it? So I guess string processing chokes on bad UTF-16

Martijn

well, not exactly chokes

ratchet freak

if they could rewrite the java stdlib then it would look so different

but then I could say that of nearly every language +10 years old

Martijn

10:01 PM

but it does really strange things with bad UTF-16

Gilles

@ratchetfreak MS did, it's called .NET

ratchet freak

@Martijn more like half the code doesn't account for it

Martijn

no, they actually thought about the problem, and decided to handle it completely unexpectedly

if you have a string consisting of a valid composite pair, and you try to split it on a single char, it will not split it and pretend it's not in the string

but it will split on an invalid sequence

(this isn't documented anywhere btw)

Mnementh

At least Java didn't inherit undefined behaviour from C, that's the lesson learned back then

blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html

Gilles

@Mnementh Java and C target different environments. C aims at being close to the hardware, this requires UB. Java aims at portability, this requires no UB.

it's not a lesson learned, it's a different objective

Java did some things right, for example it finally introduced GC to the “mainstream”, about two decades after the technology had matured

Zizouz212

10:09 PM

All this programming talk...

Mnementh

@Gilles You can do hardware-closeness without UB, Go and Rust do that

UB makes implementing a compiler a lot easier, that was a bother back then

Gilles

@Mnementh they're low-level but not very close to hardware

Martijn

Go and Rust both have some undefined behaviour AFAIK, though it's better defined

Rust can have undefined behaviour in unsafe blocks I think

Go can have undefined behaviour in some conversions, though it's not undefined behaviour of the nasal demon kind

Gilles

@Martijn being close to hardware can cause nasal demons, by definition (if it's the right hardware)

Mnementh

Right, but C has undefined behaviour as part of the standard. And that nasal demon metaphor is quite hilarious

Gilles

10:13 PM

of course, being close to hardware is a niche requirement

the real WTF is using C or C++ to develop large applications and not just the low-level parts of OSes

Mnementh

Well, back then the modern languages didn't exist

kdopen

@Mnementh But then at least it's standard UB

Zizouz212

I'm just sitting back at watching :D

kdopen

@Mnementh Yeah they did, when I started assembly language was modern .. much better than object code

I still know the opcodes off by heart for a number of processors

ratchet freak

@kdopen halt and catch fire?

kdopen

10:17 PM

0xcf on a 6800 - fun to watch with a scope

Mnementh

@kdopen: Right, also C was more modern than some high level languages.

kdopen

I remember being given this white book and someone saying 'take a look at this'

C >= COBOL, RPG

Mnementh

Or Fortran, another dinosaur that won't die

Michael Schumacher

I have used some Fortran in physics simulations at university

kdopen

PDP 111/70: opcode = 016767 .. great way to wipe memory

Michael Schumacher

10:20 PM

I IRC the Fortran libraries had been mathematically proven to be correct

kdopen

for some appropriate definition of 'fortran'

remember patching EEPROMs?

the youngsters won't know what's hit em

generation clash ha! it'll be a walk over

Michael Schumacher

We used this library from C++, though :)

kdopen

what's that? I remember CFront

Mnementh

@kdopen Right, Zizouz is pretty silent for some time now :-)

Zizouz212

I'm just watching...

kdopen

10:23 PM

thinks we're talking a foreign language :)

Zizouz212

I know fortran...

We had like a super old computer at my school that was like a cobol interpreter or something like that

I wish I had a picture to show you guys...

kdopen

My kids thought that they invented 'chat' abbreviations. I asked them how they would have made meaningful labels in assembler with a 6 character identifier length

Michael Schumacher

I hope we won't see any 'you could be my grandson, you don't tell me nothing '

kdopen

ah no .. to be honest it's hard to keep up at times ... certainly if ziz is any thing to judge by

but it's fun tweaking them ... when I was a lad ....

Zizouz212

So then what does that make me?

kdopen

10:26 PM

that's a compliment .. and based on what I've seen it makes you anything you want to be

Zizouz212

Okay :)

Michael Schumacher

'I've been doing this for X years' pops up in some bug reports for GIMP sometimes

usually it's downhill from there...

ratchet freak

you can do things your whole life and not be good at it

Martijn

even worse, you can do things for most of your life, only to discover you're not good at it

I like it when I discover I'm not good at something

fortunately, it happens a lot

Michael Schumacher

it can be embarrassing

kdopen

10:29 PM

I discovered I'm not a good manager the first time they tried to make me into one ... unfortunately that keeps happening and it takes me ages to convince them to put me back at the keyboard

Michael Schumacher

seen this at work a lot - as a newbie you'll have to be very tactful about it

kdopen

every time I change jobs it seems

ratchet freak

you get promoted to the level of your incompetence

kdopen

No, I usually apply to work as a senior SE of some kind ... then later they promote me .. then I fight to get back down the ladder

and I'm not tactful about it. If I tell them up front "this is a mistake" then do my best, they have no comeback

ratchet freak

or you can just not accept the promotion and instead argue for a raise instead

kdopen

10:31 PM

yeah, but it's often me or someone who will make my team-mates miserable

Martijn

it's strange though: "you're pretty good at this programming jig, we've decided to not let you do that anymore, and let you do we have no idea you're good at"

Zizouz212

Here, everyone is like, you need to make sure you go as high up the ladder as you can... Do all your sciences!

Michael Schumacher

and then be told that there is no raises for your current position

kdopen

happen's often enough it's got a name as ratchet said

ratchet freak

@Martijn the problem is that people think managing a team doing X is the next step up from doing X

it isn't

kdopen

10:33 PM

I can run a business (have done it a few times), do project planning, do fixed price estimating, manage a budget, recruit, lead, just don't ask me to "manage"

Zizouz212

So in a sense you can motivate yourself, but others can't do that?

(don't want to sound mean...)

kdopen

exactly, being a good manager is all about "people skills" .. now how often do you find those in uber-geeks

Michael Schumacher

Manage aka downsize to increase profit?

ratchet freak

there's a difference between stepping up to do it and getting pushed to do it

kdopen

@Zizouz212 No, I can motivate people as well (that's what I meant by 'lead'), but I can't think of people as "resources" ... and managers need to do that

Zizouz212

10:35 PM

People are resources?

Well, I guess they are...

Michael Schumacher

Yes

ratchet freak

@MichaelSchumacher while pulling in the big checks that don't seem to follow the budget cuts?

Zizouz212

It sounds so weird calling people that though

kdopen

try and find a Personnel Department in a modern company

ratchet freak

@Zizouz212 then you are not cut out to be a manager

Zizouz212

10:35 PM

I guess...

Martijn

bah, nonsense

kdopen

In economics (and where employees can't hear you) they're actually referred to as "Human Capital"

Zizouz212

So people == money?

Finance is a weird sector...

ratchet freak

hiring a employee is an investment

kdopen

Thinking of people that way makes it easier to consider things like downsizing, without losing sleep

Zizouz212

10:37 PM

I'm definitely not fit for this...

Michael Schumacher

I know someone who got told that literally - 'you are not cut out to be a manager if you can't find a reason to fire someone '

Zizouz212

Thank god I'm hoping to go to Urban Planning...

kdopen

YES .. people == money. A company only hires people if it increases the bottom line numbers. Companies don't exist to give people jobs .. they give people jobs to make more money

And in Urban Planning how will you handle the problem of ever increasing homelessness when yo have no budget?

Or when a new department store will generate more tax revenue than low-cost housing?

Zizouz212

Uhh......

ratchet freak

or when the shop street empties out because of to high rent

Michael Schumacher

10:39 PM

Spikes, no-sleep benches, no-sleep music?

Zizouz212

Ok ok

Maybe not, what should I go into?

kdopen

Seriously, Ziz. If you have the option available look at some economics classes (not the 2 weeks that fit into social sciences, but a real course)

Martijn

whatever you enjoy most Ziz

Zizouz212

Funny thing is that I was thinking of getting into economics as well

well, as an option

kdopen

yep, because with social security going bankrupt, and the retirement age going up, you'll be doing that job for 50+ years

Seriously, I got into this professions because (back then) you couldn't do it (or afford to do it) as a hobby, and I love it. I took the lowest paid job I was offered because it was embedded systems (which seemed cool) instead of COBOL

I would have richer if I'd taken the job with the bank ... but not happier

Economics is called "the cruel science" because it considers decisions etc in the absence of moral judgement .. but it also makes it much easier to understand how the world works

Zizouz212

10:44 PM

Interesting

kdopen

If you want to go the Econ route you want a double major: Math + Economics, possibly with a minor in CS

ratchet freak

@kdopen especially when you consider that there are people without morals making those decisions

or at least it feels that way

kdopen

because so much of Econ is mathematical modelling

and statistics

Michael Schumacher

it will also give you an idea what some extremists really fight, though :)

ratchet freak

they factor out the human element

kdopen

10:45 PM

their not really amoral .. just treating people and things as numbers.

Martijn

I dunno about the mathy side of econ

the qualitative aspect of econ seems more interesting than the quantative side to me

YMMV

ratchet freak

(revenue-cost)/(1-tax) = profit

kdopen

That's accounting :)

Michael Schumacher

@kdopen wouldn't that amoral?

kdopen

and not management accounting either

Michael Schumacher

10:47 PM

+be

Just not immoral?

kdopen

Forensic accounting would have also been a cool job

ratchet freak

but what is economics other then everyone accounting for their own gain ;)

kdopen

amoral == without morals, immoral == against accepted norms

kind of like uninterested and disinterested

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 what branch of urban planning? Transport planning?

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode I was thinking of transport planning actually. How'd you know?

ArtOfCode

10:59 PM

@Zizouz212 Random guess. My old man's a transport planner.

Did the 2012 Olympics

Zizouz212

Cool :D

ArtOfCode

From what he tells us, it sounds like fun

kdopen

Ooh, roads or national parks :)

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 where in Canada are you?

Zizouz212

Toronto...

We've got the pan am games coming in a couple weeks

ArtOfCode

11:02 PM

You know about the Toronto waterfront project?

Zizouz212

Yep :)

They're doing a lot of neat things along there

Michael Schumacher

Is construction season on track?

ArtOfCode

He's sort of involved on that.

(Company page) arup.com/Projects/Toronto_Waterfront_Revitalisation.aspx

Michael Schumacher

Been there earlier this year

Zizouz212

That's really really super cool!

ArtOfCode

11:04 PM

It's not bad :) the fun thing is I can come up with projects he's been involved in on 6 of 7 continents

Number 7 is Antarctica, where they don't tend to have much transport infrastructure...

Zizouz212

I can imagine...

ArtOfCode

And I do believe they've got an office in Toronto...

Michael Schumacher

There's this global subway art project :)

Zizouz212

Yeah, there site says they do, one in Toronto and Montreal

ArtOfCode

@MichaelSchumacher haven't heard of that

Michael Schumacher

11:07 PM

Maybe that has been to Antarctica already

Zizouz212

art project?

Toronto Subway Stations are known for their public art if thats what you mean...

ArtOfCode

What's even more funny is he does the international interviews for Canada's transport teams

Michael Schumacher

newmediastudies.com/art/mk.htm

This project :)

Zizouz212

Seriously?

Michael Schumacher

well, seriously an art project

ArtOfCode

11:15 PM

@ziz who?

Zizouz212

Didn't see Toronto in there

you! International interviews?

ArtOfCode

Yep :)

did one a month or so ago

Zizouz212

Wow

ArtOfCode

Contacts, Ziz, contacts ;)

And now it's past midnight and I am tired. Night all!

Zizouz212

Oh yeah, you're in England!

Good night!

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