Language Overflow - 2016-02-01

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1:33 AM

I challenge you to why "indict" and co. has /ɪndaɪt/ and other words with the string "dict" have /dɪkt/.

2:13 AM

6

A: Please explain the pronunciation of "indict."

Besides indict and its compounds, the only other word I know of with 〈ict〉 pronounced /aɪt/ is deictic, which is pronounced /ˈdaɪktɪk/. (It has various compounds, too: anapodeictic, endeictic, epideictic.) But that’s because of the 〈ei〉 not the 〈ict〉. What’s going on with indict is different....

1 hour later…

3:20 AM

@tchrist Yep, it was loaned in from a French word without a C

the spelling was changed later in analogy with the other "dict" words.

9 hours later…

12:10 PM

@Nihilist_Frost You should be careful who you're challenging young man. :P

12:37 PM

What would you prefer between a) and b)? And how often do you use it in real life?

> a) It's been N weeks/months/years since I first met X.

> b) It's N weeks/months/years since I first met X.

Pronunciation transcription-audio out-of-sync of the day: macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/penchant

(The transcription is /ˈpenʃənt/, but the audio is more like "pon-shonkt".)

1:16 PM

@DamkerngT. I think that's the word's pronunciation in French!

I guess so!

Or *I met X n time ago. *

Hmm.. Lost my previous line of text:

@JimReynolds nods -- That would be much more concise.

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure I've ever used either. I guess I'd be more likely to say I've known x [for] n time or It's been n time since I met x.

Thanks! -- So, it's It's been N TIMEUNITs since I met X rather than It's been N TIMEUNITs since I first met X.

1:22 PM

I would tend to expect a more often than b, but you know how these things are. We think we know these things, but ... That's my guess!

@DamkerngT. You mean to remove been from one of those options?

Now that I'm primed to think about it, I think I'd more likely use been, but I don't think I'd notice if I or someone else did not include it.

@JimReynolds In my examples, I wonder how often we use "first met" and when we do which we would use between "It's (is)" and "It's been (has been)".

In Taiwan, it's a challenge for learners to remember that we generally don't say, "Nice to meet you" except for the first meeting.

All of them seem likely to me.

Oh, right!

In one sense, met implies first met.

hello @Woodrow

Welcome to the room!

Anonymous

2:27 PM

Good morning!

Good evening, @snailboat! Damkerng! Jim!

Hi snailboat and Copper!

Word of the day:

Adjective: deliquescent ‎(comparative more deliquescent, superlative most deliquescent)

(chemistry) Absorbing moisture from the air and forming a solution.
deliquescent salts
(botany) Branching so that the stem is lost in branches, as in most deciduous trees.
(Can we find and add a quotation of Gray to this entry?)

(0:

@snailboat Good morning!

"(Can we find and add a quotation of Gray to this entry?)"!

Anonymous

2:50 PM

Ooh, nice word!

0

Q: Listening problem: "I'm going"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCXSO-3mt5I In the above video 2016 State of the Union Address, at 2:10, according to the script, president Obama said "I’m going to try to make it a little shorter. ", but I cannnot hear " I'm going", is there a special pronunciation rule?

Teaching pronunciation or listening (to real speech) is hard, as always!

Most clips in listening exam are relatively easy or moderately difficult, but never very difficult.

(And Obama's SOTU speech is not difficult at all!)

Anonymous

It takes practice, mostly. Training helps.

Anonymous

Learning to pronounce the sounds of English will also help with hearing them.

nods

Anonymous

I guess connected speech and reduced pronunciations can be quite tricky to decipher for learners who over-rely on the written language.

2:59 PM

Definitely!

Anonymous

There's a lot going on there that we don't usually write down!

I remember that even a simple word like "letter" didn't sound like "let-ter" to me.

Anonymous

AmE letter?

Yes

Actually, BrE, too!

I mean, where is the /t/ sound?!

Good evening from me! :)

Anonymous

3:02 PM

Good evening!

For many beginners like my old self, a /t/ sound is supposed to come with the whole onset-stop-release phases.

Good evening! @Student

Anonymous

/t/ is difficult because it has so many allophones and varies by dialect, along with the intrinsic difficulty of distinguishing final stops like /p t k/.

Anonymous

It's easier in onset position.

nods

My self is always a learner :) I am pleased to be around here.

Anonymous

3:05 PM

Welcome! :-)

Do you all think that a good contact between native speaker and non-native speaker is a good way to do teach-learn sessions?

Tell us more, Student.

I'm not sure what you precisely mean.

(I was examining Obama's clip, just for fun. :-)

His /g/ in "I'm gonna try ..." is quite interesting.

I haven't listened to it yet, but when I say it casually aloud, I don't make any /g/ at all.

I have found it is interesting to post question here sometimes :)

3:15 PM

I say eyemunna.

@JimReynolds nods -- I think that's more or less the way he said it!

@JimReynolds Oh, it's a bit different from that.

@Student Ah, I see. You meant ELL is a kind of "contact" between native and non-native speakers of English, right?

I think his /g/ in this particular utterance is a sort of "ng".

I think the best way to learn better English is to use it to talk about interesting things.

(or an "ng" of sort)

@DamkerngT. Yes!

@Student It definitely helps. The more you use a language, the more you're better at using it in your particular way. (which has both pros and cons)

I should've said "the better you're at", but what's said is said.

3:20 PM

Of course, listening to English is also using it.

nods -- I'm pro-listening/reading rather than pro-speaking/writing.

Which makes me feel uncomfortable every time I hear people say things like "speak first" in language learning.

I'm pro producing to the extent it helps develop relationships.

But I agree that for a language that I don't care much, I'd learn it by speaking first too.

would be happy if ELL provides conference for speaking exercise :)

Then we can get more compelling material to listen to.

3:24 PM

@Student Hmm... I can't see how that can happen. I mean, it has nothing to facilitate it.

That would be a great thing, Student. What language or languages do you speak?

It seems to be difficult to find language exchanges that work well.

@JimReynolds my native language is Indonesia :)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think a lot of learners would be well served by a course in articulatory phonetics.

Anonymous

Learning the sounds of the language early on.

Oh. You are neighbors with me. I am in Taiwan!

3:27 PM

@snailboat nods -- That would be a lot helpful!

@snailboat sounds a great topic! :)

@jim :) You've been residing there for a while?

But probably, if it's a second language, perhaps learning the sounds human can produce could be even more interesting!

Yes. For 8 years. I have a few Indonesian friends.

All the sounds humans can produce? O.O

@JimReynolds Yes, without being confined to a specific second language. :D

Anonymous

amazon.com/Sounds-Worlds-Languages-Peter-Ladefoged/dp/…

3:31 PM

I've noticed that this forum has a different approach compared with the ELL forum where I usually post questions :) At least, that's how I feel!

!

Ahh... Peter Ladefoged. He's the man!

Wow.

Thanks, snailboat.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. He was a great linguist. He passed away ten years ago.

Oh, I didn't know that!

3:32 PM

You da snail. Or perhaps da boat.

That makes me feel a little sad. I feel like I've just known him for maybe only a couple years.

Anonymous

Apart from The Sounds of the World's Languages, A Course in Phonetics is widely used.

More like his work, rather than himself.

nods -- I guess I first heard his name from that course.

Anonymous

You'll see his name in Native Listening, too :-)

Ah, yes! That, too!

3:34 PM

Gently tips Dam over to determine what sounds a robot makes clanking onto the floor.

@JimReynolds Mostly clink-clank-clunk. :P

Anonymous

In the introduction, you'll be referred to his Vowels and Consonants.

That's what I thought!

Anonymous

amazon.com/Vowels-Consonants-Peter-Ladefoged/dp/1444334298

One thing I was trying to look into this year (to no avail) is whether or not people can tell the sounds of "s", "sh", "ch", "f", etc. when they're pronounced as an isolate consonant.

I think we can tell somewhat, and not always.

Anonymous

3:38 PM

I think we generally can, but most likely we get worse the shorter the sound is, and we can probably perform better in an actual speech context.

@DamkerngT. Could you give the examples?

Like when you make a sound "fffffff". If you record it, would you think you can tell that it's an "f" sound when you hear it again later, way later?

(How can we tell that it's an "f", not an "s", or "sh" or something else?)

I didn't know if we could make an isolated consonant sound.

Okay, one moment, please. :D

Puzzle of the Day (What is this consonant sound?): drive.google.com/file/d/0B8KKQ0fwLEZ9Y0NWLUlZeUVCTjQ/…

Bees?

3:47 PM

It's a consonant sound (of English). :D

Ch, like in "Chip & Dale"?

I wish I could change the puzzle question to "What is this consonant sound?"

Close!

I think it's fair that you heard it as a "ch".

Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers Intro Russian №1

Took me a few seconds before realizing that I wasn't listening to English!

I can't associate it with a consonant sound.

3:51 PM

@JimReynolds Hah!

I think it's a robot releasing steam.

LOL -- I assure you that the sound was made by a human being.

> The !Kung, whose members knew their language was vanishing, chose not to co-operate because they did not want to reveal their culture to outsiders.

> The "!K" in the name "ǃKung" is a click that sounds something like a cork pulled from a bottle.

@JimReynolds Here is the full utterance: drive.google.com/file/d/0B8KKQ0fwLEZ9TnZ2QUZSWTNzRnM/…

@CopperKettle I wonder how to make a click go with the rest ("ung")!

@DamkerngT. Maybe it's a purely labial sound

Maybe clicks are only part of the language.

Ah, no, it's an alveolar click

3:58 PM

I think an alveolar click would be an air-sucking sound.

Sh?

(I asked myself why I had to edit 'a sucking' to 'an air-sucking'. :-)

@JimReynolds Yes!

Funny ... We'd generally represent a sound of hissing steam as ssssss or shhhhhh.

nods

So maybe I did identify it subconsciously.

4:05 PM

@DamkerngT. I can't follow it :)

What part? :D

the sound you produced :)

(I think I've said a lot of things in the last ten-fifteen minutes.) -- Oh, I see.

I just copied only the part of that consonant from a long audio clip.

And see if we can tell what consonant it is, if no one tells us what it is.

Hey.

Ho!

4:20 PM

i come here with various doubts.
All of which are not worth getting anxious over, probably. :P

Probably! :D

wait.

4:43 PM

My anxieties are not worth doubting.

2 hours later…

6:32 PM

@JimReynolds, hi.

hello

Nice you are here.

:) Thanks!

It's past my bedtime, though!

I better go brush my teeth and go to bed!

\o guys

Jim,present participle, example :left searching for...Does it express a simultaneous action?

6:38 PM

Hmm... that example does

Good night, thanks.

If it was uttered in speech, I think I would interpret it as left to search for if the context suggested such, and I probably wouldn't feel anything was wrong with it at all.

He left his first meeting with the psychologist searching for self-understanding with a new urgency.

Simultaneous.

7:00 PM

Dude, I am the OP and I'm getting the notification. Your comment is very relevant to our discussion. — ⱮᏁℛ 2 mins ago

I'm not seeing a good end to this.

You'd better have some sleep.

@V.V. No, not sleepy.

I have a ton of NMR to study.

What's that?

What's that indeed.

Night @JimR. Sleep some sleeps for me would ya

I don't know the abbreviation

7:08 PM

NMR is short for Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.

One important technique used in identifying unknown compounds.

Used where?

Places MAR into an NMR machine. Turns up to "blast into reverse-infinity."

That would be a NoMAR machine!

Joking

@V.V. The day Jim's serious is the day I eat my hat.

@JimReynolds Plot twist: NMR equipment isn't a blaster of any sort.

LOL

7:17 PM

Whatever it does, if you could just step inside it, and turn its dial past the red DANGER line ...

then turn it some more ...

and a little bit more

You've been reading too much fiction.

Then all the way as far as it will go,

Real machines don't have a red button, or colorful dials.

Then stand in an aluminum bucket of water, and press ZAP. ;

It would be a good thing for all humankind.

Is there such a word?

7:23 PM

@GoDucks how is that related to this discussion? I'm asking everyone to stop posting irrelevant answers, and you're talking about my not being pingable. Please focus on the content; I'm but an entity on the other side of another screen; you can't see what I do, you can't see what I think. "I am not here for something more beautiful"; if that's what you're looking for me to say. If you really care to bother yourself with such trivialities, then I don't have anything to discuss with you. Also, I cannot change my name for another 29 days, so good day. — ⱮᏁℛ 8 secs ago

@V.V. What word are you talking about?

Hey @BJB

Mankind, humanity, never met "humankind "

I wonder if LO got another regular.

@V.V. mankind wasn't good enough for politically correct people, so people came up with a genderless humankind.

Beep, beep -- content more suitable for the main room warning

(Not about "humankind", BTW)

@DamkerngT. But it's not 6 a.m.

I don't need to wake up right now.

@ⱮᏁℛ The meta site is getting hot today, eh?

7:30 PM

@DamkerngT. But I don't want hot; I want responsible. :(

I see, I see.

Oh, no! They direct several flights this way again!

Which way? Into your room?

(My place is not that far from the airport.)

EVERYBODY GET OUT

@DamkerngT. Oh, does it get too loud?

I like loud places.

A little.

I prefer a quiet place.

7:33 PM

A little loud is more annoying than not loud at all.

Well, certain times I do want some peace of ear.

But I can never do some studying in a quiet place. O_O

Hah! I thought it would be the other way around!

@DamkerngT. When I'm home, I tend to turn on the TV before studying.

Sounds like you're really used to it!

Might be because since childhood, I always did my studies in our pharmacy.

1 hour later…

8:52 PM

@ⱮᏁℛ Hilo!

9:41 PM

Interesting. I wasn't sure how I should spell the past form of dis.

> She dised/dissed his history of domestic violence.

(I had to look it up in a dictionary.)

9:55 PM

1

Q: Why is it corny to say "I'm sweet enough"?

Here is a dialog from Snatch, the movie You take sugar? No thank you, Turkish; I'm sweet enough I like to use it but an Irishman told me the other day that it was a corny thing to say "I'm sweet enough" and I'm wondering why. He said it wasn't gay, just corny. If it's meaningless t...

What? It's corny now!?

sad...

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Feb '161

Language Overflow

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