« first day (1201 days earlier)      last day (3289 days later) » 

10:08 AM
@StevenJeuris Hey, I don't totally understand the objection in the activity theory question, sorry.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr So my question is, ... what to do when a certain point of analysis (e.g. writing a question on Stack Exchange) has several higher level motives.
 
What do you mean by "overarching objects like survival"? I don't think AT treats survival any different from, say, a cultural goal like learning to drive.
goal/objects*
 
E.g. intellectual development, ... or 'survival' ... since intellectual development is part of survival, ... to e.g. get money.
Is the object in that case 'survival' or 'intellectual development'?
And what does that say about the actions?
@ChristianHummeluhr Yeah .. but why are you learning to drive? Because you live in a society where you need to be able to go from point A to B. ... why? Etc ... you can always imagine higher level motives no?
 
From my reading, objects don't apply to individual behavior, but define classes of behavior.
 
So how does that fit within the framework, ... that specifically was what the question was about.
 
10:12 AM
Americans learn to drive because there is an objective need to learn to drive in the US.
 
Talk to you later, .. lunch!
 
alright :v
Although, I thought the question about the distinction between motives and goals.
 
10:51 AM
Back
 
@ChristianHummeluhr The distinction between motives and goals seems to be based on what you choose to be the 'object' in the first place.
If 'survival' is the object, then 'going to the supermarket' is an action, with the goal of getting food.
 
You don't choose an object. Objects objectively exist and you describe the behavior they define.
 
Well you still 'identify' them right.
 
Exactly (that's why I likened it to affordances).
 
11:00 AM
But so .. you are analyzing somebody writing a research paper.
A goal would be finish writing the research paper. ... and the motive?
Graduating? Intellectual development? Survival?
But in case you are researching some papers ... in order to write a paper.
 
The motivation in that case could be seen as 'writing the research paper', ... where you have lower level actions of researching related work.
It is the whole hierarchical nature of activities which is really defined so ambiguously as far as I read about AT.
 
That is ambiguous, but it's because you're looking at a tapestry with your nose jammed up against it, figuratively speaking. :v
"The basic assumptions of activity theory are the same as those underlying the socio-cultural perspective in general: namely, the assumptions of the social nature of human mind and inseparability of human mind and activity."
Much like EPs need to define an ontology of affordances that define behavior for specific organisms within a specific environment before anything they say makes any sense, ATs need to define an ontology of motives within a specific socio-cultural context.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr So ... you are saying you pick and choose, .. and it is ambiguous then?
 
You can pick and choose from the objectively existing objects.
You're probably better qualified than I am to say whether ATs ever came up with a way to ACTUALLY identify objects or formalize a socio-cultural context, though, but that's conceptually what would need to happen for it not to be ambiguous.
(Under my reading.)
Does that make sense?
 
11:13 AM
@ChristianHummeluhr It does. :) Hence my suggested answer 'it all depends on what you take as the center of analysis'.
If I were to answer it, I would phrase it along those ways ...
 
I think you're right about that for all intents and purposes, maybe I should have gone there. Candidly speaking, the reading I did of AT for this struck me as a fairly generic systems theory/cybernetics-inspired 70's theory that makes good conceptual sense, but didn't have tools like dynamical systems theory to formalize its concepts well enough.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr It is not a 'theory' in the scientific theory sense. ;p
Really more of an analysis framework.
It is not predictive.
But still, I'd like my analysis framework to be unambiguous. ;p
 
So's dynamical systems theory. (But fair enough :p)
 
So two separate people using the same 'tool' reach the same conclusion.
 
To borrow a line from Josh, you say construct, I say con-struct.
And yeah, I agree.
 
11:22 AM
@ChristianHummeluhr But I will dig a bit into the related stuff you linked to, just didn't have the time yet.
 
@StevenJeuris It's just an introduction to affordances. Well, everyone should read it, but it won't tell you anything about survival as a motive.
 
@Mien!!!!
You came bearing cookies??!?!?!
 
A ... person I don't know. In chat? It's like first contact with an alien world.
Hello!
@StevenJeuris I updated my answer based on our discussion here, let me know if you dig up anything else.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr Cool!
 
11:55 AM
It blows my mind that I "reached" 11,000 people about psychology-related things.
And 6,000 of those were in the last month and a half.
 
hi @StevenJeuris :D
you remember me :D
hello everybody else
 
That's me! Hello!
 
wow you are everybody else?
You must be important!
 
Very important! (Also, I am literally everybody else.)
@TimStone is like a bot that keeps rooms open. I think. He doesn't speak, anyway.
He's the Wilson to my Tom Hanks.
 
What does that make you? A palm tree? ;)
Anyway hello :) how are you doing?
 
12:04 PM
@Mien I'm good! Still in Denmark. ;p
Have Danish companionship here now at CogSci *looking eerily at @ChristianHummeluhr*
 
I'm in the Netherlands, though.
 
that is confusing
The only Danish companion I have is food :p
 
øl og pølse
 
I like beer :)
 
do you like pølse?
 
12:19 PM
sure
 
You're alright.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr You should try the German ones though.
 
It is true, ze Germans know their pølse.
 
12:35 PM
@ChristianHummeluhr I was at a concert (The Subways) in Christiania recently, and this arrogant German jumped on stage after the lead singer mentioned Danish sausages, to point out, that all Danish sausages are sjeit compared to German ones.
 
Hahaha.
@StevenJeuris I can't imagine that went over well.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr I've never seen anything like it. The lead singer actually singled him out and started trash talking him.
Somewhere at the end of the concert "well at least that arrogant German is gone now".
Also don't think The Subways are used to playing on an unprotected stage, ... they are quite big. Was surprised to see them play in Loppen.
 
Moral: Don't mess with our øl, and don't mess with our pølse.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr The average Dane doesn't seem to mind taking beer advice from a Belgian. ;p
Actually gave my supervisor a beer basket for his birthday once (including Danish local brews, and obviously Belgian ones). It took him a year or so to finish. :)
 
Yeah, Belgium has a respectable beer pedigree and doesn't neighbor Denmark.
 
12:42 PM
Apparently not used to drinking 9% and up beers ... :)
 
Strong beers are not really our thing. We used to be all about the mead.
My favorite Belgian beer is Delerium Tremens, which I admit is mostly for the name. :v
 
@ChristianHummeluhr And the elephants I bet.
 
There's nothing about that beer I don't love.
The name is just that good.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr Still, I prefer the English 'non-strong-ale' tradition over all the types of silly flavored or unbalanced increased alcohol pilsners (elephant beer, Royal Blue) Denmark has.
 
There's a bar in Amsterdam called Korsakoff's which I like for the same reason.
 
12:47 PM
But then again .. there is a reason IPAs are so popular in Denmark I'm sure ...
Finally something with actual taste. ;p
 
I like a green Tuborg or a Thy microbrew when I'm in Denmark.
You must be alluding to Carlsberg.
"The export beer."
 
@ChristianHummeluhr Sure .. those are the plain pilsners of which you can find the like in every country. No need to export Pilsner (except Pilsner Urquell maybe, that is golden :) ).
 
We don't ask why people want it so long as they keep buying it.
 
I actually prefer Carlsberg over Tuborg ... mainly because it generally is served in bars that actually take care of their draft beer. Cold enough, clean tubes.
Tuborg often has insufficient fizz and too warm on draft.
Canned I can totally handle it.
 
Hm, I never thought about that, but now that you mention it, maybe Tuborg bars do tend to have worse equipment. It probably doesn't help that Carlsberg bought Tuborg out. >:|
I basically only drink draft or glass bottle beers because canned beers are just generally flat and weird tasting.
 
12:51 PM
@ChristianHummeluhr Yeah, ... the metal touch does tend to influence taste.
But Jakobsen's brown ale for example ... can certainly compete with other belgian brown ales.
No need to revere Belgian beers that much. ;p
 
I like both for different reasons. We just have a different tradition.
 
Or even considering quadrupels, I always compare Santa's Little Helper by Mikkeler to Belgian Quadrupel.
 
Danish beers are generally much less flavorful than Belgian beers are, but that's because they originate from recipes that were essentially intended to replace water.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr I tend to say, the Danish tradition is quantity, the Belgian one quality. ;p
 
Yeah.
If I'm having a beer, I'll go with a Belgian or some microbrew, but if I'm going to a bachelor party or anniversary event, I'm going Tuborg. :v
 
12:55 PM
@ChristianHummeluhr Haha .. we are not too different. ;p
We just drink Stella or Jupiler then.
 
Jupiler's alright, never tried a Stella.
 
@ChristianHummeluhr Tss tss .. that is my hometown beer. :)
They try to promote it as Belgium's 'premium' pilsner.
Product placement in shows like House of Cards and many others.
Called 'the wifebeater' in England because of the higher than usual alcohol percentage for a pilsner.
 
Classy.
I'll look around for it next time I'm shopping beer, I suppose!
 
@ChristianHummeluhr Haha. Sure. Don't expect too different a taste from Jupiler though. Perhaps slightly more bitter.
 
2:02 PM
New question: what areas of the brain are active when Europeans are discussing sausages and beer? and why are they the same areas that are active when they discuss love?
2
 
2:17 PM
Hebbian learning.
 
I'd upvote that.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:33 PM
@StevenJeuris What's the status on this? meta.cogsci.stackexchange.com/q/993/2868
 
4:48 PM
@ChristianHummeluhr It is what you see ... :)
Nothing has been discussed since, right?
 
I meant how many votes does your proposal need to go to, uh, mod court?
 
Well .. the last one had seven up votes. :)meta.cogsci.stackexchange.com/a/977/21
I don't know. Possibly if @JoshGitlin and Jeromy agree we could get it over with.
 
5:15 PM
Thanks.
I wish Jeromy would come around once in a while to give his views on stuff like this.
 
He mainly puts his energy in the content of the site as you might have noticed ... doesn't leave too much room for else.
And he is from Australia. ;p
 
5:37 PM
I know, but that's also why his views matters a great deal.
matter*
 

« first day (1201 days earlier)      last day (3289 days later) »