The Whiteboard

user20683

12:00 AM

Endless Forms Most Beautiful is much more stylistically consistent than Imaginaerium

Telastyn

Blackmore's night does stuff like that
Though... Decidedly different genre.

user20683

@Telastyn Finntroll tends to do weird stuff with all kinds of instruments

user20683

Finntroll - En Mäktig Här (HQ Audio)

►

user20683

Calypso drums in metal

Telastyn

Interesting. They don't come up on pandora.

user20683

12:03 AM

@Telastyn they don't sing in English

user20683

that may have something to do with it

user20683

though Indochine doesn't either

user20683

I think they are also very indie labelled, I can't recall

Telastyn

Maybe. Can't think of anything that is regularly non-English

user20683

@Telastyn Korpiklaani is also a fun one

user20683

12:08 AM

KORPIKLAANI - Vodka (OFFICIAL VIDEO)

►

user20683

There's also Eluveitie who sing in a reconstructed version of an extinct Celtic language

Duga

StackOverflow is for specific programming problems, not workplace related questions. Moreover it's pretty opinion-based. Might be better suited for the Programmers stack exchange. And wow, I never imagined such practices existed, moreso for a startup... — Pierre-Luc Pineault 1 min ago

Hi, welcome to Stack Overflow. Sorry to hear about your problems, but it sounds to me like you're trying to find a programmer to work with you, which isn't what this site is for. This site is for programmers to ask each other specific questions based on details of their code. Take a look at the help center for some more info. — IMSoP 1 min ago

@Pierre-LucPineault Programmers.SE also uses the same Q&A model of Stack Overflow. If a question was closed here as primary opinion or too broad, more than likely it would be closed on Programmers.SE for the same reason. Please see What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow to get a better idea of what types of questions would be good candidates to flag for migration. — MichaelT 42 secs ago

Jimmy Hoffa

3:18 AM

@WorldEngineer Finntroll is awesome

Duga

4:18 AM

The "code review" site is for code that works properly, but which you think might be improved somehow. If you've got an error, like the one you described, then this site is the correct place for your question. But you have to SAY you've got an error, because not all computer programmers are psychic. — David Wallace 1 min ago

rwong

6:01 AM

Are there definitive rules on what types of programming puzzle / algorithm questions are allowed on Programmers.StackExchange? Sometimes some questions look like puzzles (i.e. seems educational but lacks practical value) to someone, but looks like familiar to a practical algorithm to others.

And aside from definitive moderation rules, does P.SE encourage people to vote on such questions? Should one upvote/downvote/novote based on whether it's a goot git to P.SE, or based on whether one recognizes practical value in the algorithm asked in the question?

Overpheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeating karpathy.github.io/2015/03/30/breaking-convnets

Duga

6:42 AM

Probably a better question for programmers.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic StackOverflow doesn't do comparative design or much of anything opinion based. — CandiedOrange 30 secs ago

Jimmy Hoffa

11:48 AM

@Duga psychic computer programmer... this sounds like the next big fad; Code ninja? Rockstar programmer? Pah! Psychic coder beats all challengers!

user55340

12:11 PM

-2

Q: Anyone else annoyed by this advertisement?

There's one advertisement that frequently appears in the right margin of Stack Overflow pages, that I find annoying and distracting. Does anyone else feel the same way? The advertisement in question is for a Microsoft Developer Camp. It has a man with his arms folded. To the left of the man, ...

2

user55340

Read the comments there and have a few WTF moments. And someone beat you to the screaming.

Duga

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it's about algorithm and data structure concepts and fits better on programmers.stackexchange.com — Joachim Pileborg 36 secs ago

@CandiedOrange Programmers.SE has the exact same close reason for recommendations as Stack Overflow has. This would get closed on there too. Please read What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow to get a better idea of what types of questions should be flagged for migration. — MichaelT 2 mins ago

MetaFight

@MichaelT awesome

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT OMG WTF.

user55340

12:27 PM

@ThomasOwens Aren't you glad you just have people asking about licensing questions on our meta?

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Yes.

user55340

My question was very serious. I'd like to be able to use Stack Overflow at work. And I'd prefer not to have to explain to my boss why I'm visiting a web site with an image of a semi-pornographic well-endowed cloud. — David Wallace 4 hours ago

user55340

@gnat just had to spoil everything there, didn't you. (I'm laughing... and not at work... its that other Friday)

user55340

What happens when a squirrel eats naturally fermented apples

user55340

12:58 PM

ideas.lego.com/projects/61057 - it needs 1824 more supporters...

durron597

1:28 PM

@ThomasOwens @MichaelT This is why I use an ad blocker.

user55340

@durron597 Doesn't work... you need meta blocker.

durron597

@MichaelT I've never seen that particular ad before.

user55340

@durron597 I don't have ad blocker... and I haven't seen it either... it might be part of a more targeted campaign (specific tags)

durron597

@MichaelT Perhaps. But I've never seen any ads, including the ones you all talk about designing

rwong

@MichaelT This post is an example of cultural sensitivity in graphic design, and is no laughing matter. However, some individuals have a more sensitive threshold than others ... stackoverflow.com/questions/536110/…

And ... occasional "tripped the wire" happens, and in graphic design this is handled by reviews and revisions (as soon as it is reported). In the digital world, all graphical assets are on the cloud and versioned; will be updated as soon as someone reports it. It is typically unwise for a corporation (esp. a large corporation) to resist the public request to modify graphical assets to remove the issue.

But of course, ... one also use common sense and opinion poll (and other side-channel attacks) to decide whether it is a prank (Well I didn't realize it's early April!) or a genuine concern.

Previously, stylized "hands" would not have tripped this wire because the "hand (bulb)"'s diameter would typically be more than twice the thickness of the "forearm (stick)".

Very recently, the use of an elongated rectangle topped with a semi-circle of same width (diameter) that is weakly separated by a thin line or gap, is popularized by ... the Android figure

What is the name for Go-lang code that is not idiomatic? "Ungothic" ?

ratchet freak

1:53 PM

@rwong emo?

durron597

@gnat Oh yeah I forgot about the Community diamond dupe hammer feature. Thanks for reminder

@gnat You can delete those comments now

@gnat Hmm... I wonder what happens with circular duplication. A small part of me wants the faq-proposed question closed now to see what happens

user114359

2:30 PM

Software fail.

user114359

Drug Pumps Vulnerable to trivial Hacks, DHS warns

user114359

Nothing says "we care about security" like hard-coding a SQL password, in plaintext, into every piece of software distributed to all of your clients.

user41796

Gem of the day in reference to the MSO rant: businessinsider.com/15-worst-corporate-logo-fails-2012-1?op=1

Telastyn

enh, these are servers sitting in hospitals behind network security.

there are easier ways to kill people in a hospital if you're already on-site.

user41796

@Telastyn All you need then is access to the poorly secured wi-fi network. Sit in the parking lot and wreak havoc.

durron597

2:34 PM

@GlenH7 wow.

user41796

@durron597 Isn't it though?

user114359

Correct, several of those vulnerabilities can be triggered remotely

user41796

@durron597 And I responded to the rant with a little bit of chastisement

durron597

@GlenH7 I think the london one is ok

user41796

Stuxnet proved that assumptions about airgaps and needing to be on-premise were poor assumptions

user41796

2:38 PM

@durron597 That's a hard one

user41796

I don't really see the Lisa Simpson angle

user41796

But I certainly see the hidden (not likely there) slight regarding Zionism.

durron597

@GlenH7 I'm Jewish... I'm not offended.

Telastyn

meh, I worked in computer security long enough to know how vulnerable software is in general, and how little it is actually exploited meaningfully.

user114359

Kill it:

user114359

2:39 PM

-1

Q: Oracle XE & proxy authentication - licensing problem

I would like to use "Proxy Authentication" in Oracle Database Express Edition. My goal is to connect to database and work on behalf of other user without knowing his password. My ideal solution is: ALTER USER bill GRANT CONNECT THROUGH appserve; then my app could connect as: appserve[bill]/p...

licensing oracle

user41796

@durron597 I think it's offensive to more conservative branches of Islam.

Thomas Owens

I don't see the problem in the dance logo.

user41796

@ThomasOwens Dissociate your vision on it and it will fade out to a stylistic nude of a woman

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Wow. That's a stretch.

But OK.

user41796

It's like one of those illusion puzzles

durron597

2:48 PM

@ThomasOwens No it isn't, once you see it, it's pretty clear (to me, imo)

Way more than the london one which I still don't understand.

Oh, because they think it spells ZION. If anything it spells ZOIZ

user41796

They aren't necessarily known for consistently presenting rational arguments

user114359

Yeah I had to focus on the area between the two dancing children to see it.

durron597

@GlenH7 I wasn't going to go there for fear of starting another heated politics debate

user41796

Yeah, I'm going to keep dancing around that one

user114359

I agree with the Simpsons view of that logo. Makes more sense.

user41796

2:54 PM

I'll note that there's a history of crap like that being thrown around. Some allegations are legitimate. Others, not so much.

user41796

I actually don't agree with any of the interpretations on the 2012 logo. I just think it's a poorly designed logo.

user41796

"Really, that's the best you could do even with how many bajillions of pounds to spend?"

ratchet freak

looks like they put a small time art student on it and he got drunk while drawing it

durron597

So the new hire we hired chose to go with us instead of <big bank>

user41796

@durron597 How many books have you already dumped on him?

durron597

3:00 PM

Recruiter at exact same big bank just sent me an inMessage to work in the same office this guy turned down

user41796

That's awesome

durron597

@GlenH7 Of course I'm 10 years older and would want at least 70% to 100% more money than they offered him

@GlenH7 Just one.

I'm taking your advice to go easy on him :-P

user41796

Every now and then I get contacts from recruiters. I'm tempted to follow-up just to see what my current market worth is, but it also seems like such wasted effort as I don't really wish to leave my current role.

user114359

I get way too much spam on LinkedIn.

durron597

@GlenH7 I would be willing to leave for the right offer, but it would have to be a significant pay bump. At least 50%

I make good but not great base, but the upside is so high. I would have to be offered a ton of guaranteed money to leave

user114359

3:10 PM

I have a lot of good benefits where I am. That counts for a lot. Plus, I am actually hourly which is fantabulous.

user41796

I've got decent benefits; a good boss; and no shortage of interesting, challenging work. Some of the corp policies are wonky, but well below the 60/40 threshold.

durron597

@GlenH7 Except when you have to work on legacy silverlight code

user41796

@durron597 It's my own baby I'm calling ugly. I just keep wishing I could kill it off.

durron597

@GlenH7 Every pun joke I can think of on that one is in extremely poor taste :-P

So I'll hold off for once

user41796

Hmmm, I thought we could drop "define Foo" phrases in here

user41796

3:21 PM

Filicide would probably work too

user41796

In other news, I finally picked up a pair of decent earbuds and I'm disappointed in the bass response

user41796

I mean, I knew they wouldn't be the same as my regular cans. But wow have they left me underwhelmed

user41796

clarity on the other hand has been eye-popping

user55340

prolicide

Noun: prolicide (uncountable)

The crime of destroying one's offspring, either in the womb or after birth.

user55340

@GlenH7 You need a ':' after define.

user41796

3:24 PM

filicide

Noun: filicide (countable and uncountable, plural filicides)

A person who kills his or her own child.
The killing of one's own child.

user41796

@MichaelT Thanks for schooling me. :-)

user41796

cool, and it picks up on the edit

durron597

/me wonders, in a purely academic sense (I'm not taking a political stance right now) what would happen if the pro-life community attempted to rebrand "abortion" with "prolicide"

user41796

@durron597 technically incorrect use of the term

user41796

almost could argue infanticide, but that's from birth to 12 months. Feticide would be the most appropriate term.

durron597

3:27 PM

A) "either in the womb" B) You know that's not relevant in politics... for example when the meaning of liberalism changed, now referred to as classical liberalism vs modern liberalism

user41796

That particular conversation has long since left any semblance of rationality so a rename would likely have negligible effect. Neither side listens to what the other is saying.

durron597

@GlenH7 Agreed.

user41796

I wasn't aware of liberalism being broken up like that, but it makes sense

durron597

classic liberalism is basically the modern conservative, at least economically

But it hasn't meant that since the 19th century

That's also why the meaning of "liberal" and "libertarian" are so different

user41796

Words being hijacked for political purposes. <sigh> I guess it's okay because that's never happened before.

durron597

3:32 PM

@GlenH7 That's why I idly wondered if such a rebranding would do anything

user41796

I wish the new earbuds had more noise-isolation to them though.

durron597

but then I agreed with you that neither side listens to the other, at all, so it probably wouldn't do jack.

ratchet freak

@durron597 it would do something

user41796

The lack of meaningful dialogue is what disappoints me about current politics

ratchet freak

it would reignite the flamewars

durron597

3:33 PM

@ratchetfreak I wasn't aware they had burned out.

ratchet freak

rekindle/strengthen then

Telastyn

The lack of meaningful political dialogue isn't exactly a modern invention.

ratchet freak

political dialog has only been meaningful at the start of the institution

once people have been in power a while they then start talking nonsence

Duga

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs on programmers.SE — Thom Wiggers just now

durron597

3:50 PM

@GlenH7 Politics has become a religion

Many people don't think about economic policy for practical reasons, they think about it because they have faith that what they've always thought is the right thing

user41796

To some degree, I think politics has always been a religion for some

A.M.K

Does anyone know how to reach support at the Chrome Web Store (besides the usual channels)?

user41796

It's a question of where a particular society is within the cyclic nature of being able to sort things out rationally or not.

user41796

@A.M.K Nope, and good luck with that. They're very good at locking external channels down.

A.M.K

Yeah. I have a bug fix update going out to 85,000+ users that's being blocked, I'm trying everything I can.

And the IRC channel is sloooow

I also can't seem to find the general SO chat room. Was it removed?

user41796

3:59 PM

@A.M.K which one?

user41796

remember that chat.stackexchange != chat.stackoverflow

A.M.K

@GlenH7 Duh... TY

user41796

It's happened to me many times before.

Steve G

4:11 PM

heyo

@durron597 aint that the truth

whatsisname

wow

so what's worse, failing fizzbuzz in an interview

or using fizzbuzz in an interview, but being unable to discern what is wrong

ratchet freak

@whatsisname I think he wanted some example responses to base his evaluation of candidates on

user41796

4:43 PM

Looks more like hi misunderstood what the original author was saying with messing up the assignment to the booleans.

user41796

But the question has been self-deleted.

whatsisname

so I saw the new Furious 7 movie last night

user41796

@whatsisname Worth the 2 hours of your life?

user41796

Sanity check: stackoverflow.com/election/6

user15026

@GlenH7 What am I checking for?

durron597

4:56 PM

@GlenH7 Only one of the three people I voted for won last year

user41796

if(insane)
{
    self.nominate();
}
else
{
    self.Flee();
}

user15026

@GlenH7 ah, that sort of check.

user15026

Not a programmer AND I value my sanity.

durron597

Can I vote for @RobertHarvey to be the one ring to rule them all?

user41796

@AshleyNunn Ding! Don't apply then. :-) (as in: you really, really, really don't want to apply)

user15026

4:58 PM

@GlenH7 Yeah, no, Arqade is enough happy fun times for me

user41796

Robert for SE overlord mod?

whatsisname

@GlenH7: yeah, it was entertaining

user41796

That's good to hear. I haven't had a chance lately to see many movies, but I suspect that itch will pick up during the summertime

whatsisname

as the series has gone on they've gotten more and more ridiculous

however, I am very conflicted

in that I didn't realize until last night that Universal is now owned by Comcast

so I willingly gave comcast money last night, which troubles me deeply

user55340

15

Q: Should I avoid using "abort" in favor of its synonyms?

I've heard that the term "abort" could have a negative meaning in some contexts (i.e. due to abortion-related issues), and for that reason it was avoided in some interfaces of the 80's/90's, probably after the popularization of DOS' famous Abort/Retry/Fail. I do not recall if this issue happened...

buttons terminology psychology wording

durron597

5:05 PM

@GlenH7 Sure, I mean, they have enough mods now that they need to have someone to moderate the moderators

user41796

They should put Yannis on that then...

user114359

@durron597 who moderates the people who moderate the moderators?

Telastyn

you'd think with the advent of the internet, people would develop a resistance to being butthurt.

user114359

Nope.

user41796

@Telastyn Greater exposure therefore increased immunity?

durron597

5:07 PM

Telastyn

yeah.

Duga

Unless you've tried something, this is not a good question for StackOverflow. Try programmers.stackexchange.com But here's a library that does dependency management both on the server and on the client browserify.org — Juan Mendes 53 secs ago

Telastyn

it probably did, but exposing that many more people to content means you're guaranteed to butthurt someone.

durron597

@Snowman That guy.

gotta run, later all

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 s/current//f

Duga

5:12 PM

@JuanMendes you might want to read What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow. A question that is too broad here, or asking for a library recommendation would get closed for the same reason on Programmers.SE. — MichaelT 1 min ago

overexchange

If you want to achieve your goals, don't focus on them

user15026

@Telastyn As I watched a friend delete her FB account earlier today because a mutual friend disagreed with her over whether or not yarnbombing was cute....yeah, no.

user55340

@Telastyn With the lack of body language queues (which are drilled in to our brains at very low levels), we often assume the worst. That not only is intending to inflict butthurt, but its... oversized. Our imagination runs away with the characture of the other person and makes it even worse. Rather than building up a tolerance to it, we are learning how to pretend to be a victim all the better (so one can then say "that offends my {fill in}" and act like they mean it to counter inflict butthurt)

user15026

@MichaelT so much this, especially that last sentence

user114359

@AshleyNunn I never knew about yarn bombing until just now. Looking at Google Images, it is so... epic...

user15026

5:21 PM

@Snowman It's irritating and ugly - bad for trees, bad for animals, and you get one good rain/snow/gross weather and it gets nasty

user55340

user15026

Yikes.

user114359

I would not advocate covering living organisms that might be harmed. But the one @MichaelT linked, the picture of the tank, parking meters, epic.

user114359

Parking meters especially because those things are evil. As a suburbanite, I hate paying for parking. That is a cool way to stick it to the man.

user114359

Civil disobedience

user55340

5:23 PM

user15026

Let me show you the kind of stuff we get locally.

user114359

Henry David Thoreau would be proud of some of these yarn bombs if he were still alive.

user114359

That stop sign looks like it is trying to dance

user55340

user15026

user55340

5:26 PM

See, there's no skill in that.

user114359

Lame-o

user55340

Its a couple of hot pads wrapped around a lamp.

user41796

I was going to go with "a bit gaudy"

user15026

user41796

"quite a bit more gaudy"

user15026

5:26 PM

I could keep going but I won't subject you to it

user55340

user41796

There should be a "yarn bomb fail" website

user55340

You need to take measurements and make it appropriate for the target.

user15026

See, if there was some talent to it like @MichaelT's images, I'd hate it a little less.

user15026

But like...this is just, well, ugly.

user55340

5:27 PM

user55340

user114359

user55340

(That face and sweater should be immediately recognizable to someone watching pbs in the 70s)

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT 70s? How about the 90s?

user55340

@ThomasOwens Reruns.

Thomas Owens

5:30 PM

Really?

user55340

Wait, it did go until 2001.

user55340

Mister Rogers' Neighborhood

Mister Rogers' Neighborhood (often shortened to simply Mister Rogers) is an American half-hour children's television series that was created and hosted by namesake Fred Rogers. The series originated in 1963 as Mister Rogers on CBC Television, and was later debuted in 1966 as Mister Rogers' Neighborhood on the regional Eastern Educational Network (EEN, a forerunner of today's American Public Television), followed by its US network debut on February 19, 1968, and it aired on NET and its successor, PBS, until August 31, 2001. The series is aimed primarily at preschool ages 2 to 5, but has been stated...

Thomas Owens

I thought so.

It was a really long running show.

user55340

The thing is, good guerrilla art requires it to be art and appropriate to make someone think and reflect about its meaning.

user55340

Wrapping hot mitts around a lamp post is... well... not.

user55340

5:32 PM

user15026

@MichaelT And that's all we get locally, so I tend to hate it.

user15026

@MichaelT Legos?

user55340

@AshleyNunn yep.

user114359

I am a fan of this, too, real-world trolling:

user114359

5:33 PM

Thomas Owens

We have the Not Art dude in the Boston area. He just stencils "Not Art" on random things. I don't get it.

user15026

@Snowman See that takes talent and skill.

user15026

@ThomasOwens I am sure, given some time, I could write you a nice steaming pile of postmodernist rhetoric on that.... (gotta put the English degree to use sometime)

user55340

Banksy

Banksy is a pseudonymous English graffiti artist, political activist, film director, and painter. His satirical street art and subversive epigrams combine dark humour with graffiti executed in a distinctive stencilling technique. His works of political and social commentary have been featured on streets, walls, and bridges of cities throughout the world. Banksy's work grew out of the Bristol underground scene, which involved collaborations between artists and musicians. Observers have noted that his style is similar to Blek le Rat, who began to work with stencils in 1981 in Paris. Banksy says that...

user55340

Thomas Owens

5:36 PM

@MichaelT Banksy endorsed the Not Art guy,

GimmeTehRepz

@ThomasOwens I've seen pictures where someone put art museum tags on things.

I feel like they're either the same person, or bitter rivals.

Thomas Owens

5:58 PM

@GimmeTehRepz Would the universe implode if I put a museum tag on a Not Art?

Telastyn

6:43 PM

fwiw: yarnbombing is not cute.

user41796

6:55 PM

You know the code is bad when you go to the history to verify that developer XYZ is the one who wrote it.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:20 PM

@Telastyn ....?

Just got a recruiter e-mail about an F# position O_o that's not something I'd expected

oh...yarnbombing... gads I am out of touch.

Telastyn

replying to something like 2 hours ago

user15026

@Telastyn It can be, if done right and taken down relatively quickly

Telastyn

I mean, it can be amusing, clever, artistic, etc.

subversive

user15026

Ah, yeah

Telastyn

and seeing it for the first time today, I think it's kinda clever, and requires more skill than just putting a jersey or a Che Guavera hat on a statue.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:31 PM

@Telastyn but can it be destructive? Because that's what really matters; can I blow something up by yarn bombing? How? Instructions? Please? I mean...strictly for safety reasons of course...

Telastyn

@JimmyHoffa - plausibly. The wife knits like... all sorts of things. I expect enough rubbing of wool will electrostatic the hell out of your eyeballs.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn right, so yarnbomb an electrical box and then someone's eyes, got it- I mean don't yarnbomb...eyes...

GimmeTehRepz

@ThomasOwens Probably just attract a bunch of armchair philosophers.

The only part I don't get is why spend $20 on yarn to wrap a tree in it?

enderland

0

A: Notifications table design?

Design your database around the data. What I mean by this is: You have users You have posts You have comments You have users you are following You have notifications It looks like you are trying to design your database around one use case rather than better organizing your data. Try somethin...

requesting feedback from more advanced folks - this seemed straightforward enough I could write out an answer

Jimmy Hoffa

7:50 PM

@GimmeTehRepz seriously, super glue's way cheaper and you can do way cooler stuff with that, like sticking things to ceilings and walls, stick books and newspapers shut, endless entertainment far cheaper and in less time

Telastyn

bleh. I'm not going to be very productive

for the rest of the day.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:15 PM

@Telastyn I encourage this

user41796

@enderland It's a meh question

user41796

Which is why it hasn't received that much attention. It flirts with an XY issue as you allude to in your opening. But that said, it's a good answer for a meh question.

enderland

k, I am finding that after a few months working with competent developers I am learning a TON and realizing it when I can understand answers here or even consider how to write them better

user41796

Oh, how did those turn out?

user41796

And is it singular or plural?

enderland

8:22 PM

one dev, one more "applied BA" person

but I've been burned quite a few times so far, so who knows

user41796

Yeah, count on nothing until there's an actual offer letter

user41796

But good to hear that they both went well

enderland

I've gotten a lot of verbal support for the dev one, though, and am optimistic

user41796

That's usually a good "buy sign", yes

enderland

but HR. etc. :)

user41796

8:24 PM

That's when you call the VPs that have been mentoring you. :-)

enderland

I think I'd be ok with either, the non-dev one is higher paying and less "glamorous" imo

But I think I'd be satisified with it too? I am really liking working with a good development team though

It's like The Whiteboard except IRL

user41796

:-)

user41796

One thing to look at is the salary structure for the dev job family

user41796

and try to determine if the BA job family simply has a hirer salary structure or that they would be hiring you further up the chain

user41796

And they can usually promote you out of a junior position more easily once you've demonstrated your value to them

enderland

8:28 PM

Yeah

user41796

So if it means a short period of time at a lower salary, that's not the worst thing in the world.

enderland

Mhm

user41796

You'll find later on when you get hired into senior level positions that there really isn't anything else to climb up to

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 count on nothing after there's an offer letter...

user41796

@enderland That'll wash out in no time and it sounds like you'd be happier as a dev

user41796

8:30 PM

job satisfaction does have an intangible value to it

enderland

@GlenH7 I think eventually I will end up doing some sort of management/PM/product owner/scrummaster work, but want to have legit dev experience too (plus I do like coding, a lot)

but who knows. planning that far in my life is way too hard lol

user41796

@enderland future teams will have more respect for you and you'll be able to communicate better with them

enderland

Yea

Plus development is really interesting/fun...

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 but management will forever see him as tainted...

user41796

@JimmyHoffa LOL. You're really on the cynical side today. Everything okay?

Jimmy Hoffa

8:51 PM

@GlenH7 jus' sayin... everything's fine but I've definitely seen management play the our-team-their-team game before, where they basically ignore all input from folks who listen to or have experience/good relations with development, though I was mostly kidding. That's relatively rare that a management team is that bonkers

user41796

My experience is that it's actually an advantage for going into management as well. One senior level explained it to me this way when we were chatting about a senior architect named Mike. "Mike could do my job just as well as he currently does his job, but I can't do his job as well as I do mine."

user41796

And I had a few mentors who went down the management route for a while before coming back to development. Their impression was that a lot more of their dev time was transferable to management than vice versa. But everyone's mileage will vary

Jimmy Hoffa

as for the offer letter note; it's just something don't realize often that is worth being aware of. An offer letter guarantees nothing. You need an employment contract before you're certain. Usually offer letters have clauses and even if they don't they pretty much always say "this is not guaranteed, and can be backed out from either party at any time" - which I have seen happen before. It's very rare, but one of those things you shouldn't just think illegal

enderland

An offer letter is significantly more meaningful than a verbal promise [[pending HR stuff]] though

user41796

An offer letter is fairly close to an actual employment contract. Most companies are very loathe to break the good faith extended through an offer letter, but it has happened. Sun is a notable example of that.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:01 PM

@enderland very true. It's far from common for them to be renegged; most frequent reason for that is some form of the testing is not completed yet. Calling references, background check, etc.

user41796

And it's worth noting that a company can break an employment contract as well. In some states it can be done with absolutely no penalties.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa yeah. at this point, an actual dollars amount offer is significnat

user41796

Yeah, those sorts of things can happen.

Jimmy Hoffa

It varies by company, some won't extend the offer letter until all their ducks are in a row, some prefer to extend it asap to try and get the employee before someone else does and then does the checking later.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa internal transfers are easier too, it's just a manner of all the HR ~~wasted time~~ processes

Yeah, though that's slightly different too

user41796

9:07 PM

Yep, and he'd gone past the line.

Jimmy Hoffa

It's funny how difficult it is to find good critical articles on technology, yet good cheering pieces are always everywhere. @enderland @WorldEngineer you guys know like fancy sociothingies about stuff. Ever heard any reason for the classical - "People review/rate things they love(or is it hate?) more frequently than the opposite" leaning?

Critical articles on technology are almost always just whining over either trivial things or shit they just didn't understand. Even if the technology is truly bad, they're usually just complaining about things that are hardly troubling.

enderland

The internet gives an easy platform to the knowledge-less and makes it just as easy to write a crap article as a well researched, meaningful one...

News media only is going downhill as a result

It's also designed for consumption/entertainment, rather than content

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland yes, but I find it curious that I find rah-rah articles that are often more well reasoned even for terrible technologies than I will critical articles for the same technology

enderland

I personally like reading 4 star star reviews on things, because generally those people offer perspectives which are meaningfully critical

Jimmy Hoffa

just looking for articles carping on angularJS and bumped into a few that are absolutely terrible and one that's pretty decent and made me think about it... seems to be a pattern... I can find tons of decently written well reasoned positive criticisms, but the negative criticisms on it are mostly bad, even though the technology is a truly troubling thing

is something I've noticed with other technologies

enderland

9:17 PM

So... reviews are not applicable :P

Most of the internet is noise, at best

Jimmy Hoffa

ah I've got an explanation! The people who like it more, work with it more, and know it better, and because they like it they write positive pieces on it... ergo, people who hate it, use it little, and know little of it, and anything they write about it will be ill-informed... that makes sense. may be true...meh

enderland

Yeah

Jimmy Hoffa

It matters just enough for me to....go grab some beer from the fridge and carry it home with me. Sometimes working here has it's perks. Friday out.

enderland

Hah, nice

Writing a meaningful negative review is hard since you have to fully understand something, and generally by that point you will understand the benefits of it

> I don't mind coming to work, but that eight hour wait to go home is a bitch!

user41796

9:33 PM

@enderland And then you have to deal with things like methods called "GetFoo" that don't return anything and rely upon side-effects to do their job. <sigh>

enderland

> getFoo(){
// do stuff
// confuse EVERYONE
return bar;
}

user41796

return void

user41796

even worse

enderland

lol

user41796

If I called something FooSet, you'd think it's a collection of objects, right?

user41796

9:35 PM

Wrong. Just an identifier for a class.

enderland

9:45 PM

Heh. Maybe it was refactor fail (thinking on the bright side(?

gnat

this needs to be triaged with extreme prejudice: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/278209/…

whatsisname

10:03 PM

missiles lanched

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname bew bew bew?

user20683

10:21 PM

@JimmyHoffa Go browse through Jacobin (They are strongly socialist). Think of them as the (real) leftest version of the Economist.

user20683

they do articles on technology

user20683

they don't like Neoliberalism very much

user20683

so they tend to pick bones with the tech industry over technology itself

user20683

Read Jaron Lanier's work

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer and what pray tell is "Neoliberalism" then? People always have different definitions of all these terms; misappropriating terms to fit the perspective they wish to sell when it comes to politics, as was mentioned earlier. Can't never know the meaning of any such terms under a universal definition.

user20683

10:28 PM

@JimmyHoffa Free Market, no-holds barred financialized industrial capitalism

user20683

Neoliberalism

Neoliberalism is a term whose usage and definition have changed over time. Since the 1980s it is a term used primarily by critics of the resurgence of ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism beginning in the 1970s and 1980s, whose advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy. Neoliberalism is famously associated with the economic policies introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and...

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer liberal as in liberate, specifically the economy, where the liberation is from the control of citizens, returning such control to proprietors then?

user20683

@JimmyHoffa more or less

Jimmy Hoffa

10:42 PM

so ironic that one liberal meaning is to liberate control from organizations so citizens may self-actualize while another meaning is to liberate organizations towards the same reason, yet these two things are at utterly cross purposes... liberal is such a shit word, it simply refers to desire for more control, and parties whether individual or organized will always ask for it no matter whether they already have it all or not.

It's just a shit way of describing things. It's a claim of victimization, but when both sides claim to be the victim it loses all meaning

user20683

@JimmyHoffa which is why you tend to hear "progressive" more these days

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Bear in mind also that "Liberal" as a term was coined at a time when Monarchy was the default form of government.

Robert Harvey

10:57 PM

Ohhhh, politics. Can I play?

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer No, you're thinking of libido, liberal was coined by Glenn Beck, he told me so, he said it means you're like a curious cat and he's going to smash your head in, I think? Something like that..

@RobertHarvey iduno, are you going to call me a liberal and then try to throw snakes at me? I like snakes.

Robert Harvey

Liberal == fair market via government control.

Fair anything via government control, really.

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