@GlenH7 is doing other questionable things. Like saying that time-estimation is a synonym of estimation.

While the question uses pseudo-code (as does the excellent answer which focusses on algorithms rather than implementation details), I read that question as implementation-oriented, as evidenced by “How can I sort …” and the focus on efficiency. It does kind of sit between both chairs, so I'd leave it where it is. The answer shows it could have worked in Programmers, but the migration was OK.

Migration is for questions that are explicitly off-topic, or when the user requests it.

This question is clearly an algorithms / data structures question, which is on-topic here. Migration should not be used on questions that are on-topic.

@amon in questioning migrations that fit multiple sites always err on the side of keeping good content here

unless you're a turncoat! !?! Are you working for the opposition @amon !

and if it's not good content, you don't migrate it to shit on someone elses site. So, like @ThomasOwens said, only use migration when it's not on-topic here.

@MichaelT the only place go is mentioned, is in the tag... we had a lively discussion in here about algorithmic approaches and optimizations for it, and I solved the Q in JavaScript...

@JimmyHoffa hang on... you're Ixrec??

RUMBLED bro

@LightnessRacesinOrbit no, I wrote a solution though to point out an optimization over @Ixrec's

dammit

@LightnessRacesinOrbit We know what the scope is! We merely disagree on what a specific question-asker wanted.

as I said, we had a lively conversation in here about it

@amon nah you don't

@LightnessRacesinOrbit there's a bit of color blindness about what is and isn't fit here I think caused by the fact that no one else knows the scope's site. So much junk get's posted here - it can become hard to recognize what isn't junk anymore; everything just begins to look alike

@MichaelT he doesn't even mention go right there...

@JimmyHoffa Except in the tag.

@ThomasOwens yes I said that earlier, I was referring to the comment @MichaelT just posted

It's good to know what language that you are working in. We're practical people - there could be a very easy, language specific option.

@ThomasOwens true, though I could see the SO migration making sense if he wanted the most optimal Go solution, as the specific details of particular language implementations is SO and not us..

but I really don't see him having asked for that

I asked in comment if that's what he wanted

@MichaelT that's not indicative

I don't really feel like that question belongs on Stack Overflow

This goes back to my still-relatively-new-found belief that code is design. We need to be more forgiving with questions that involve code here. Sometimes, it's easiest to express design if you're using a well-understood language.

I wonder how much time I spend trying to make our internal timesheet process work right

there should be a category, "configuring timesheet"

Just because it references the language that the person happens to be using or that there is some code in the question, it doesn't mean that the question is about fixing broken code.

Can't see revision history now, either way, it is what it is. I do start to wonder if we have in recent time begun to over moderate; It seems content I would have liked to see stand that's been moderated out is easier and easier to find.. Just gives me the feeling that things may have changed unwittingly of recent since I didn't previously get such vibe.

Part of it is understanding who you are asking.

@MichaelT I think his comment about fastest "code execution" was his confused way of trying to ask for run time efficiency not space

OTOH I could be dead wrong

that's why I asked him to clarify exactly whether he wants an exact code implementation or an algorithm solution

is there actually any practical difference between, "what's the code for the fastest algorithm?" vs "what's the fastest algorithm?"

@enderland No, not really.

@MichaelT But what in his question said he wanted specific, idiomatic Go code?

I would think a decent answer to the second question would include at least some pseudo code (maybe not working, but pseudo code for sure)

Nothing that I can see.

@MichaelT none were particularly clear one way or another though; that's why I just asked. He's probably long gone by now though so too little too late. You may be right, his response may be "I really just wuntz teh c0dez. kthxplzbye?"

Which brings me back to the point of migration: if it's not explicitly clear that it's off-topic here, don't migrate.

@MichaelT Again, design concern. On-topic here.

@MichaelT well sure, but that doesn't really change my question, does specifying a language make a question off topic on P.SE?

@enderland only if you specify C/C++! OOOO. :)

@MichaelT untrue! You believe that he wants a coffee! You know it! Deep down! You're anti-coffee! Unbleibable!

@MichaelT All of them?

@MichaelT I still say the one's you indicate show he was are vague at best; IMO he made zero indication for or against which means there's not enough evidence to choose any moderation activity without first communicating with him

I've read it three times. I don't see anything about looking for Go code. He's assking about algorithms.

I edited that a fair bit, I think while perhaps a lazy question it's not really deserving of the DVs

@ThomasOwens hah! You said he's Assking! Hah!

@GlenH7 I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't do such, just that I don't think the content of the Q or any revisions or OP's communications was anywhere near indicative enough to make a decision one way or another about his intent as it regards wanting "teh c0dez" or a thought out algorithmic approach. You and @MichaelT felt there was enough evidence indicating so, I just disagree. I would have commented rather than moderated to get clear evidence dictating which he wanted

@GlenH7 If it's not clear, then why vote to migrate?

Err on the side of caution.

Either provide a good answer with respect to our community or comment. But don't migrate unless you know that what they are asking for is off-topic here.

also, I would encourage you guys to request clarification when the evidence for a poster wanting something off-topic is so wishy-washy as that evidence was in the future

normally I don't log on here at work but this seems highly relevant to me

all I have to say is: He asked on Programmers, so I gave him the Programmers answer, i.e. "this is how to get O(n)".

I shall now lurk

@MichaelT feel; yes I see how you got that feel, I would hope we moderate based on clear evidence more often than feel though, especially in the case when if that feel is wrong - it would actually have been a good quality Q for our site

@Ixrec you have to make lurking sounds the entire time though, like creaking walls and clanging pipes. Or just mumble lurkylurkylurkylurkylurkylurky while you're there

@GlenH7 Like I said, I don't get how showing code means it's an SO question...

It's kind of hard to talk about design without code.

@ThomasOwens they're not saying he was showing code, but requesting optimization that utilized techniques particular to a given technology - that's the crux of their argument for it being SO. Which is an SO fit - like asking what API's to use to do something from the .NET framework, but the real argument against it is the evidence supporting their position is tenuous (IMO)

But ultimately, this is just another example of why migration should go away.

I think what @ThomasOwens is saying is that a question can be both an implementation and design question at the same time

and that they are not mutually exclusive

I feel like this question is asking for design though:

> How can I sort the second array such that its maps are in the same order as the first array via the matching ID values, while achieving the fastest code execution as possible?

@enderland it's about the interpretation of "highly optimized" -> Designs can have optimizations but if he wants implementation that's "the fastest code", he does want a very technology specific answer. If he answers my comment with "o yes, I just want a best Go solution, not an algorithm" then it wouldn't work on our site as we don't provide a specific technology's optimal techniques book; that's SO.

I think my kid's getting like a 5' remote control monster truck thing for xmas... ugh, something in my house is going to get so broken.

@MichaelT I don't think that "feels like" is enough for migration. If it is, migrate. If not, don't. If you aren't sure...don't migrate, because that gives everyone headaches.

@JimmyHoffa You can highly optimize a design, too. Going with an O(log(n)) algorithm instead of an O(n) algorithm, for example. That's on-topic for us.

And that's how I'm reading the question (and seems like you're seeing that too?).

clearly I should've found a way to exploit soft heaps or fibonacci queues so the answer would feel sufficiently hardcore for the OP

@MichaelT That's not the philosophy behind migration at all.

@MichaelT I don't care about SO; I'd rather something off-topic here be found out late, end up closed and deleted rather than migrated only for us to find out later it belongs here. SO can eat it as far as I'm concerned

In fact, that approach is the exact opposite of how migration is supposed to be handled.

@ThomasOwens I vote we migrate crap!

Yes, closures should come quickly if a question needs clarification and improvement. But not migrations.

@ThomasOwens I vote we migrate @Ampt!

I vote to migrate everyone's faces. But not their bodies.

@ThomasOwens that will mostly just affect you and me, though... :o

@enderland :O

would I keep the triangles or the squares?

@MichaelT Do you have evidence of this?

In most cases that I've seen, people who actually take the time and effort to write a good question aren't dumping it on multiple sites.

The problems are people who write crap questions and dump them on half the network.

Again, the problem is in migration. Specifically in the fact that it exists. But we do need to hold on to any content that is worth saving.

@MichaelT not on P.SE though! Who cares about those other sites :)

In other news, on Quora, I'm a most viewed writer on UML and Stack Overflow.

@ThomasOwens Commiserations

so, related to this, I think migrations are one area that the 3 close votes might be less than ideal, because it means only 2 people are needed to migrate a question (of the 3) - it kicks it off this site entirely and is no longer "maintainable" by P.SE

@enderland Again, migration just needs to go away.

@GlenH7 oh, does it?

oh, interesting

@ThomasOwens By Merlin's Thread!

@GlenH7 Given the numbers, we're higher than I think we should be.

9 questions really isn't enough. That's, what, 1 bad migration from SO?

@GlenH7 We're migrating too many bad questions to SO.

also 9 questions isn't a good sample size realistically

@GlenH7 Just because we migrated, does that mean that they got the answer they wanted?

Just because we sent it to SO and SO accepted it doesn't mean that they weren't looking for a Programmers answer.

@ThomasOwens They didn't not get it :D

@GlenH7 I don't get what you mean by "not having a chance of getting an answer".

Some questions do have more than one correct site to be on.

good

@GlenH7 That's assuming the question should be closed in the first place.

The difference is with migration, no one can say that you were wrong.

Once it's done, it's done. It's painful to undo.

With closure, three users or a moderator can come in and be like "no, you're wrong" and undo.

And we have 3 users who are saying that this migration was wrong. But we can't do a thing about it.

@GlenH7 That's fine.. Because we can undo closure.

If migration was not an option, would you have voted to close?

@GlenH7 But bouncing migrations around is painful. I dropped a flag on the SO question.

But the end result is messier than three people voting to undo the action.

@GlenH7 It's not that we can't undo it. It's a poor user experience for every user involved in the question to have their posts bounced around the network.

If you guys had any idea what the site's topic was, you'd post a few examples of good questions and a few examples of bad questions.

@GlenH7 ok

could call it Migrations.SE

just shut down Programmers and allow design questions on SO; problem solved

@LightnessRacesinOrbit If SO also took process / methodology questions, I'd maybe start to move forward on SO rep again.

I kind of wish they did. Although I suppose some could go to Project Management...

But SO would have to take design questions.

@LightnessRacesinOrbit SO is a victim of it's success, in no part of SO can you have thorough answers that took significant time to construct that get the reward in audience they deserve. SO Q's get answered so lightning fast with vestigially correct answers that teach next to nothing making it rather not worth participating for anyone who likes to take a deeper more robust perspective on any technical situation.

@JimmyHoffa That's my problem with SO.

@ThomasOwens it's why I left SO for CR years ago and then moved from CR to here; Answering questions on SO with quality thoughtful responses is an absolute waste of my time. I can either write something that's the technical equivalent of fast food, or just not participate; I chose the latter.

I suspect SO wouldn't want to increase it's scope either

@GlenH7 it's a valid idea; except it wouldn't be a merge; it would be a deletion because many of the decent people who participate in P.SE would stop participating. It would just be a net loss of content creators which is why it's unlikely to ever occur I suspect.

@LightnessRacesinOrbit we have some meta threads now with loads of examples of both

probably should use those at some point in one of these discussions

@Ixrec impossible, everything is in-scope on SO already. Honestly the place has become too large I think- I stopped participating years ago and it's only grown significantly since then. I really don't see it as any different than YA at this point. And I'm not being hyperbolic- it's basically the same in my mind... meh.

does Yahoo Answers have a meta?

@Ixrec it has worse ads; there's your main distinction.

@Ixrec trashcan.yahoo.com

SO is doing some things for content. The new homepage and filters make it easier to find questions.

But if you are active in any of the top tags, FGITW is still a huge issue.

@enderland doesn't resolve.

@JimmyHoffa ... that's the point

@enderland had to try :)

wow @Ixrec has to be the highest rep P.SE user with next to no SO rep of any I've seen...

I came to the conclusion that most of you are describing a lot faster

mostly because I arrived on the SEs much later than any of you

I have very little SO rep.

378 to be exact.

@Telastyn the fuck did you pop up from??

also wow, 92k vs 378? How have you not even gotten more rep from that just from migration?

wow, someone with less SO rep than me

Hell I think I have more WP rep than that just from shit getting migrated

@MichaelT I'm SO and I want them.

the last thing anyone wants is for SO to be a debugging helpdesk

yet the mods seem to keep rejecting anything else

so odd

@LightnessRacesinOrbit ? who says? That's precisely what SO is supposed to be I thought (not sarcastic; really, isn't that the purpose?)

@JimmyHoffa it's precisely not

I mean, that's exactly what it is and has been for years... it had a different initial purpose?

it's not what it is and has never been

if we wanted "debug my code for me" questions then the MCVE close reason wouldn't exist

it may be subtle to spot, but the MCVE requirement is actually there because questions about a MCVE are questions about languages, not about some snotty-nosed twats late homework, or some overpaid "contractor"'s deliverable that he hasn't a clue how to deliver

@LightnessRacesinOrbit if you didn't want "debug my code for me" questions, then the majority of the site should just be deleted... I mean, it's almost entirely "I have a bug in this code, it's doing X and I want it to do Y, what am I doing wrong here? I tried A, B, C, but can't make it work?" <-- that's a good question for SO

but we just say "show us your MCVE if you want help" because most idiots can't comprehend the value of the bigger picture

@JimmyHoffa yes, the majority of the site should just be deleted. hey, have you seen the size of the Close Review queue lately?

Yesterday I learned that Stack Overflow was solely about "How do I fix my code" questions.

the "best" questions on SO, by votes, are basically the most simple/easiest to answer questions...

good, interesting, hard questions there do not get attention

yes questions about languages

often those questions come about through having difficulty achieving a task - great!

@LightnessRacesinOrbit close review queue? Hah! I laugh at your close review queue! Hah Hah! Like I said, SO is YA..

that's not the same as "debug my code for me" and it never was

@GlenH7 Rejected why?

A user told me. He was adamant about it too.

that bloke with the "history" in Whiteboard?

That whole Code Review debate.

I mean this does ring a bell

Yeah, you remarked about it.

@RobertHarvey I'm serious; is it not ??

ok :P

I'm sure I helped the situation as usual

That's all I understand SO to be for. "I have technology X. Is teh broke maybe? Want to Y. X no work. Halp plz, tried A, not worked. Should try B? Maybe? Halp?"

@GlenH7 makes sense

@JimmyHoffa gth

@LightnessRacesinOrbit ?? what else is it for?

@JimmyHoffa did you not read anything I wrote above? ^^^^^^^

@LightnessRacesinOrbit no! god, when will you people learn! Nobody reads first!

And then an lol.

@JimmyHoffa It was never entirely about code troubleshooting. But the marching of a hundred thousand pedants has made it so.

lol you pronounce "lol" el-oh-el

I returned that question.

@RobertHarvey Stack Overflow is about getting answers to your questions about "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development"/

It's as if a billion pedants suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly - er, no they haven't been silenced yet have they?