The Whiteboard

Jimmy Hoffa

7:07 PM

@Telastyn True, Happy Coffee Day indeed..

Telastyn

I scheduled a bunch of 1:1s with my team yesterday, because my boss hadn't.

so literally had meetings from 8:30 to 3:00

and today my furnace is getting replaced.

\o/

so the dogs are going nuts because of the furnace installer guy walking around

user41796

@Telastyn It's not their fault you brought a bunch of scary looking strangers into their house.

Telastyn

that is true. They are not bad dogs.

My brains though...

user41796

Mine whines whenever someone dares to walk on her sidewalk

John

Hi folks, I'm back again to ask for more degree advice

I decided for a BSCS over a BSIT, but then someone here suggested a BSSE

user41796

7:12 PM

Yes, you should quit your current path and focus on becoming either a master brewer or master distiller.

John

and I can't seem to figure out the difference between a BSCS and a BSSE

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens see what you've done? Bla.

John

For reference: BSCS; BSSE

Jimmy Hoffa

@John just strike SE from your mind. Also don't look at CE, because there is actual reasonably good logic behind choosing a CE over a CS

user41796

CS is more theoretical. SE is more applied

user55340

7:14 PM

Can mods tweak tour text?

enderland

@JimmyHoffa my guess is school variation is more significant than actual degree variation

user55340

@MichaelT Reading the blurb at the 'tour' of Programmers does not lead one to that conclusion. Let me paste the portion that is probably causing some of the confusion: Programmers Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for professionals and students in software development and related fields who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development. Now, sure, they miss the parts between, especially about 'conceptual questions' because that's about as clear as mud to a student, to which most questions are conceptual. — Phicksur 39 secs ago

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 bah. SE is a degree for PMs because all their certifications are a joke

@ThomasOwens :D

enderland

@John look through the courses

user41796

@MichaelT Doesn't appear to be so. I didn't see an edit button at the bottom of the page

user41796

7:16 PM

@JimmyHoffa WUT?

user41796

I'm not saying there aren't lackluster Software Engineer programs, but most of the ones I've seen have been fairly involved.

Brandin

@John BSCS requirements that are not in the BSSE: algorithm analysis, programming languages, senior project, graph theory, linear algebra, numerical methods. If these topics are important to you, CS.

user41796

Especially since some states will now recognize SEs as being able to be licensed PEs

Jimmy Hoffa

Jan 5 '13 at 4:47, by Jimmy Hoffa

I'm helping :D

enderland

@John the Software Engineering has a lot more actual development related classes compared to the CS one

Telastyn

7:17 PM

the SE programs in my area are lackluster. They're job training.

user41796

> Not in this case, sorry.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Brandin basically: SE's can't program

RE: @GlenH7 @ThomasOwens

Jan 5 '13 at 4:47, by Jimmy Hoffa

I'm helping :D

Telastyn

the CS programs are arguably worse, but they will have more longevity.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa A lot of CS's can't program either...

Jimmy Hoffa

Screw it all, just get a CE

at least those guys come out able to do what the degree claims: They can create a fucking computer. Boom.

user41796

7:18 PM

@John - Pick a program that appears to give you the most exposure to writing code. Preferably, lots and lots of code.

Telastyn

a tiny computer. Unsuitable for my car even.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Chemical and Civil Engineers can't create computers...

Brandin

CS is something you can do without a computer. It is the science of computers. The act of writing code is amateurish in comparison with actually solving a problem.

John

Alright, I will take all of this under consideration. Thanks again, everyone

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Computer Engineering

user41796

7:19 PM

Obvious troll is obvious

user55340

The CS program at UW Madison is a CS program with required classes in theory and the like. I've also seen the CS program at UW Stout or UW Eau Claire being more vocational in mind with less theory.

Jimmy Hoffa

@John Wait wait don't forget, computer engineers are great programmers who create computers and robots

user55340

With Stout and EC, if you are smart going in you can get good material through it. If you are... lets say "less capable" going in, you will come out a coder who can code somewhat in one language and follow instructions. Hopefully.

enderland

@John one thing to consider is which college different degrees are "home" for - at my undergrad, the CS program was in our Liberal Arts/Sciences college but CE/SE was engineering college; LAS had a lot more "gen ed" requirements which meant less focus on the coursework

John

@JimmyHoffa That's cool stuff, no doubt, but I think I've decided I would prefer working with software over hardware

Ixrec

7:21 PM

@enderland same for me, I actually deliberately chose the non-engineering CS program because I wanted the less stringent requirements/freedom to pursue a double major and other silly electives

John

@enderland Oh, good point. I need to figure that out

user55340

CS at UW Madison was part of the Letters & Science world (not engineering) - so yep, lots of general material.

Jimmy Hoffa

@John CE's write software, just low level software. The stuff on your phone and in your car and in robots. Don't forget: SE's just tell people what to do, but they don't actually do anything. Only go SE if you're a people person, you can take the requirements from the customers to the programmers

Brandin

It's always confusing to me when someone talks about "software" and "hardware" as if they are different worlds. You need both. Without hardware you're just looking at some theoretical algorithms or something.

Jimmy Hoffa

well, your secretary can, but if you're a people person it's great!

John

7:22 PM

@Brandin Yes I'm not getting across what I meant very well

Telastyn

you do seem easily confused.

user55340

> Hardware met Software on the road to Changtse. Software said: "You are Yin and I am Yang. If we travel together, we will become famous and earn vast sums of money." And so they set forth together, thinking to conquer the world.

Presently, they met Firmware, who was dressed in tattered rags and hobbled along propped on a thorny stick. Firmware said to them: "The Tao lies beyond Yin and Yang. It is silent and still as a pool of water. It does not seek fame; therefore, nobody knows its presence. It does not seek fortune, for it is complete within itself. It exists beyond space and time."

Jimmy Hoffa

@Brandin without hardware you're looking at a whiteboard, vast and endless playground of unconstrained penumbra Scotch!

user41796

@Brandin desktop app and web developers are more easily able to ignore the hardware they're working against. Other development domains, not so much.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Scotch!

Telastyn

7:24 PM

it's all the cloud man! The cloud! </stoner voice>

user41796

@Telastyn Dude! Wrong type of cloud...

Telastyn

shit!

user41796

inhale deeply anyway

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Scotch?

Brandin

I just mean in a way of looking at things, everything is the software. If you write a program for a robot, that is just software. If you write a desktop app, that is also just software. On the other hand, the robot is doing something physically, it is "just" hardware. Also, the desktop app does something that interfaces with the physical world, so again it is "just" hardware. In the end, if there is no hardware and no physical interface, then the software is useless.

user41796

7:25 PM

@JimmyHoffa I think converting scotch to an aerosol form to be consumed would be a travesty

user55340

> BOOK 8

Hardware and Software

Thus spake the Master Programmer:

"Without the wind, the grass does not move. Without software hardware is useless."

user55340

(From the Tao of Programming)

Jimmy Hoffa

@John are we helping you decide yet? We're making everything so clear! :)

John

@JimmyHoffa Yes, very clear indeed...

enderland

@John also the unfortunate part is that every university will be slightly different...

Jimmy Hoffa

7:27 PM

@GlenH7 My takeaway from present events is, no one should come in here trying to ask for any form of advice after noon on a Friday.

Ixrec

it would be nice if it was possible to give clear advice on educational issues...

enderland

@JimmyHoffa except what drink to give

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland ~~scotch~~ what?

enderland

I am kind of wondering how many of you have started that process already tbh :P

John

@enderland My inclination is that that difference would mean whichever degree I chose would be enough to get me doing mostly what I want to do; I'm just not confident enough to just up and pick one

Ixrec

7:27 PM

which process? getting drunk?

user41796

@enderland I only wish...

John

@JimmyHoffa Yes, this timing was perhaps not the best :p

user41796

@John What do you think you want to do?

John

@GlenH7 Code

enderland

@John another thing to look at is that most of the first few semesters are probably the same for both at that school

Brandin

7:28 PM

@John Will there really be a situation where you get down the road and say "If I had had degree X, I could have done this. But since I have degree Y, I can't."

user41796

Then any of the degrees will get you there.

user41796

But the paths will vary

Ixrec

^

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 he should become a ninja, I'm always hearing those make the best coders. And rockstars. Hey @John you want to be a programmer? Start with the Guitar, get screaming fans, then I think you're the best programmer? Yes.

enderland

@Brandin "I want to become a heart surgeon, but my degree in music ISNT HELPING ME"

John

7:29 PM

@Brandin I can't see one, but I don't exactly have any of the experience necessary to make that call without advice

user41796

@Brandin Neither of my degrees are programming related degrees. Hasn't stopped me from cobbling crap together. :-)

Brandin

Yes yes, but when X is BSCS and Y is BSSE??

enderland

@Brandin that's what you get for making absolute statements :P

user55340

That really depends on the program at the university more than the 'CS' vs 'SE'.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 yeah but you just write excel macros don't you? And manage gant charts for the programmers that your secretary takes the requirements to?

user41796

7:30 PM

@enderland Because we're not known for pedantry...

Thomas Owens

@Brandin There are things you can do with a BSSE that you can't do with a BSCS, assuming that BSSE is an accredited engineering program.

Brandin

Please show me the hiring manager that says, well, well, you have very nice experience and education, and your answers to the technical test were fine, but you see, your degre is X, and we like degree's Y around here, so...

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Those words cut deep....

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 that's pageantry - different word.

enderland

@Brandin they exist, but probably not for this distinction here

user41796

7:31 PM

@Brandin I filter based upon degrees, but not like that.

Ixrec

for CS vs CE, the managers who would do that would probably also catch you on some other silly thing that also doesn't matter

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens yeah, all the cool stuff you see people doing in CSI with big flashy nonsense, while other people are doing the real work and you're busy looking cool.

Ixrec

the important part is that in most universities both of those probably refer to courses that teach you how computers work and how to write some code that tells the computer to do stuff

user55340

If they are after CS vs CE vs SE, you don't want to work there.

enderland

also just more random advice @John - you can change your degree pretty easily between those two once you are there and have a better feel for which is better, too

user55340

7:32 PM

Assuming the university offers those different programs.

Ixrec

enderland

@John not having a degree will not meet some HR criteria...

John

@enderland That is somethign I should remember.

@enderland Ah, right, I mistook "no degree" for "wrong degree"

oops

Brandin

In the end, CS and SE are just educational titles. What skills you have are more important for the real world. And more importantly, choose the degree program that motivates you to learn it and to gain those skills. Like, if you go to school every day and say to yourself, wow I'm doing CS that is so cool. That's much more important than someone else thinking it's cool.

enderland

I changed my major multiple times in undergrad (and, probably would have done something different had I not realized with 1 semester left that I didn't like my main degree - sorry @GlenH7 :P)

user55340

7:33 PM

(UW Madison going from CS to ECE meant picking up a boatload of math and physics... going form ECE to CS meant picking up all those non-degree classes - either way about 2 more semesters of classwork)

Ixrec

to be fair, teaching yourself programming and getting a degree in it are totally different things, that's a reasonable filter to use

user41796

@John Lots of companies require a degree to get your foot in the door. Arguing about whether that's right or wrong is a different conversation. It is possible to get programming gigs without any degree at all, but it is more difficult to do so.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland not a people person after all? Signed on to come up with a Final Solution to the PC Load Letter error?

Ixrec

does this university have any career advisors on-site that you could talk to? they're more likely to know what CS and CE and so on actually mean on that particular campus

John

@Ixrec That was going to be my next place to check.

enderland

7:35 PM

@JimmyHoffa I think this is English... but I'm not sure ;)

also just more unsolicited advice: going significantly into debt for a degree is probably not the best idea for CS types of things, since most people will say that what you do outside of work is more valuable/teaches you more than the classes

user41796

@enderland Might be closer to Scottish?

Telastyn

I disagree with that.

enderland

@GlenH7 Scotchish?

user55340

user41796

@enderland Say it however you like so long as someone passes me a glass...

Thomas Owens

7:36 PM

OK. Weekend time.

Telastyn

your education is probably the most important investment you will ever make. Don't skimp on it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 oh goodness this is a spectacular idea. From now on, everyone, I command that you will hear everything you read from me in here in your heads as spoken in a scottish accent.

user55340

CS program at UW Stout. You will note that there's nothing about science in there - 144 and 145 are "how to program" not "turing machines and automata"

Thomas Owens

If anyone has more education questions, ping me next week.

user41796

@ThomasOwens We're way ahead of you

enderland

7:36 PM

so you probably can get a 4-year degree from a cheaper institution and if you are motivated (you are here, which means you are more motivated than probably 90% of your classmates already) and come out with way lower debt and better education

user55340

UW Madison CS program - cs.wisc.edu/courses/list - too many to screen shot.

user55340

Note that CS 520 (a course for 3rd or 4th year students) is a required class.

Telastyn

college also includes a social network.

user55340

> Basics about the notion, capabilities, and limitations of computation: elements of finite automata and regular languages, computability theory, and computational complexity theory. Additional topics include context-free grammars and languages, and complexity-theoretic cryptography. Prereq: CS 240, and CS 367, or consent of instructor.

enderland

@Telastyn it's not the "education or not" question that I'm meaning, it's the "expensive education at 'fancy school' vs 'cheaper education at less fancy school'" question

Jimmy Hoffa

7:38 PM

@Telastyn as someone who got a free one, I agree. Debt is an absolutely inevitable part of American life, your degree if it's a decent one that will get you good paying work, will be the easiest debt to manage in your life. Unless you make mistakes and get awful horrible miserable garbage terms from some loan shark or other such. Get good government secured debt for your degree.

Telastyn

right, I understand your meaning.

Brandin

Education should be absolutely as cheap as possible. The American way seems now to be get a loan and go into debt to get an education. Utter nonsense.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn I learned about this in a movie! This is how college makes you a billionaire right?

@Brandin no options. People working and going to school full time can't afford to live and go to college just on their wages. Either get debt or don't go to college, welcome to America.

user55340

@Brandin UW Madison, tuition is about $500/credit (going down as you take more credits - 12 to 18 credits is $5,200 for instate resident).

enderland

@JimmyHoffa eh, CS is a degree you can get good paying internships pretty easily compared to most, if you go to a less expensive school you can manage it (assuming you don't care about the social aspects of college as much... :P)

Telastyn

7:41 PM

@JimmyHoffa - pretty much. People will pay you plenty of money just so they can say they have a Harvard grad on staff. Or your (actually smart) Harvard buddies will invite you to join their startup.

Even less than Harvard pays. I think something like 60% of Netscape was Michigan grads.

user55340

(hmm... back when I was there it was $100/credit)

enderland

Though I did get a linkedin request randomly and the reason was "same alum!" and the person looked like a non-complete-linked-introll...

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT that's per? Year? Semester? What?

Brandin

This might not be so bad if the minimum wage was, say, $50/hour or something.

user55340

Semester.

durron597

7:42 PM

@Brandin CRONY CAPITALISM

enderland

@Brandin where do you live?

user55340

(you can see the slow progression of costs at registrar.wisc.edu/tuition_&_fees.htm )

Telastyn

My night classes are at a relatively cheap college (~$1830 for a one off class) and it is horrible. I mean I would not interview CS grads from this school.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT (how many of those are there in a normal students school year?)

user55340

@JimmyHoffa A 4 year approach is 8 semesters of 15 credits each (120 credits total). The 5 year approach is 10 semesters of 12 credits each.

durron597

7:43 PM

government subsidizes cheap loans that can be deferred for a long time plus grants -> increased demand for college -> price goes up

Brandin

@enderland I'm American, too. But in Europe for a few years now. They do education slightly differently here. There is actually public funding for it. In the US, public funding means you "only" pay $5000 per semester or something (provided you're in that state). Here, public funding means you can actually afford to go.

enderland

@durron597 that universities can just set their price at whatever they need want to do the things they want probably helps, too

user55340

That brings you to $10k/year or there abouts for tuition. Books and boarding are additional on top of that.

durron597

there was a time when you didn't have to go to a four year university to be a secretary in the US, but now you do. why? oversupply of the college labor market.

enderland

@Brandin one thing to keep in mind too is that in europe internships pay pittances compared to USA (but this only helps if your degree is relevant, lol)

Telastyn

7:44 PM

$5000 per semester is nothing for what you get.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT so 2 semesters a year - around 10-11k a year just for college, that doesn't count room and board, and if you made $10/hr working full time you're talking about just over $20k/year, so if you worked full time making over minimum wage you could just barely Put yourself through college

user55340

durron597

free market schools > entirely government run schools >>>>>>>>>>>>> hybrid system where government price distorts the market and then private organizations set the final prices

Brandin

@Telastyn The value is certainly there, but practically it doesn't work. If you have to pay so much to go to school, you either need to work full time (which means you won't learn well) or go into debt (which is totally dumb)

Telastyn

why is that dumb?

it is the most surefire investment you can possibly make.

enderland

7:46 PM

It's not (as) dumb if your degree gives you a job paying $60k/year or whatever the low-ball software dev offers are nowadays. but it's really dumb if you make $30k/year as a starbucks manager

durron597

@Telastyn how long do you think it takes most people to pay back a quarter million dollars in education loans?

user55340

Btw, for a... different... take on it, read The Unincorporated Man.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Brandin debt is inevitable in american life for those of us who aren't particularly wealthy. Unless you never want equity of any sort whatsoever...

Telastyn

good book.

user55340

The idea of universities buy stock in you.

Brandin

7:47 PM

Well, it's not so bad. But It's only like one degree above indentured servitude. Really, I just want to say, come on, it's 20 f'ing 15, people. Time to figure out how this stuff is done.

user55340

Which also means that if you don't own 50% of yourself, some of your choices are decided by your board of directors / share holders.

Telastyn

@durron597: because people don't get scholarships anymore?

It took me 4 years to pay off my $20k in loans - _without_ a degree.

Ixrec

you had only 20k in loans? lucky

durron597

this is why i would vote for bernie sanders before jeb bush. because a completely government run system would be better than this insanity we have now

user55340

My entirety of the tuition was $12k back then... and my grandparents covered it completely.

Telastyn

7:48 PM

Spending $10k a year for 4 years to increase your salary by $10-25k per year for 40 years is a no-brainer.

durron597

(but i would vote for ted cruz before bernie sanders)

Telastyn

@ixrec - half scholarship and only 2 years.

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 take it back just ack

enderland

@Telastyn everything you are saying assumes that people look at college as an economic decision and not a "everyone has to go to college or they are a failure in life!"

Jimmy Hoffa

no, I mean, no ack! No ack! :P

enderland

7:49 PM

plenty of people go to college for the wrong reasons, get a lot of debt, and then cannot pay it off

for numerous reasons

durron597

@JimmyHoffa I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problems you see with "capitalism" stem from this crony capitalist non-system that you see today

and I agree with all those criticisms

Telastyn

sure. Spending $50k on that English degree is probably not wise.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn what is wisdom? I think you will only find out.... with a philosophy degree! For the low price of $50k, you can become wise!

durron597

if you're going to have government run the system, you have to go the whole way and have government price control the end result, otherwise the cronies will game the market

user55340

@Telastyn a harvard poetry degree ROCKS!

enderland

7:50 PM

@Telastyn there are far worse choices than an English degree, too :P haha. I think one of our most common majors was psychology, which is basically a pre-grad school degree at best

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT sinks in water?

durron597

@MichaelT my sister in law is a stay at home mom with a harvard degree in medieval history

Ixrec

there's also a tremendous amount of uncertainty when it comes to job hunting no matter what your field is, just because we're in the exceptionally fortunate position of having a job that's in high demand and low supply doesn't mean everyone who pays for a CS degree is going to get $60k within a year of graduating

durron597

before she had kids she worked in publishing editing Math textbooks.

Telastyn

(my wife has an English degree, so it is the go to)

enderland

7:51 PM

@Ixrec I think anyone competent enough to be researching college and seeking out this chat room will be fine at that point though - it's the "meh college, want monies so I'll do CS I guess" people that are going to get screwed by it

durron597

see above about artificial distortions of the labor / education market.

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa I took a minor in Philosophy alongside my Computer Science and Economics double major. I love how flexible American schools are.

Telastyn

anyways, I need to be off. Happy weekend to all.

Ixrec

@enderland yes, very true

user55340

I was two classes away from a minor in philosophy.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:52 PM

@Telastyn and to all a good ~~scotch~~ night?

user55340

(or three from a major)

Ixrec

I know FAR too many people from high school who went to college for the wrong reasons and did not get enough out of it

user55340

Philosophy degree was my backup if I couldn't get through numerical methods.

user55340

Though realize that philosophy degree meant "class in logic" and things like that - not just "plato said..."

enderland

@Ixrec the worst is people who got for a few semesters, get a bunch of debt, but then drop out anyways - they don't even get the "4 year degree" checkbox

Brandin

7:53 PM

I just like to think what would intelligent aliens think if they saw us. They would be like, "dudes" you can create a global communication system but you can't even get educated without going into debt which you must pay for years and years. That is so farked up.

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 I agree with you on most points, I'm just terrified of the idea of dismantling the whole system because it's broken... and that's what a lot of people are arguing for these days. Fuck that, my kid needs school..

Ixrec

to be fair I never would've gotten that minor if the requirements were stricter than "five upper division courses", it was hard enough getting seats in the classes I needed let alone the electives I would've wanted

user55340

I know what ∀ and ∃ means and how to do various forms of predicate logic or prove that the infinity of reals is larger than the infinity of integers...

durron597

@JimmyHoffa it worked great prior to LBJ and FDR

Ixrec

@enderland exactly, I never understand why those people didn't start out at community college instead

enderland

7:54 PM

@Ixrec because if you don't go to a college you are a failure at life! obviously. :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 not really, literacy rates were in the dumps back then

Ixrec

@enderland I do think this was not that far from the attitude among the families I interacted with, whereabouts are you from?

user55340

Many families saw "college = middle class" be it maintain middle class or get into middle class.

enderland

@Ixrec college is a consumer product that has massive advertising to convince EVERYONE in the united states

durron597

@JimmyHoffa what do you call "dumps"

Ixrec

7:56 PM

that's not at all what I asked, lol

user55340

This was during the period where it was hard to get a good factory job that you could count on.

durron597

sure, african american literacy rate was below 80% in 1920 but that wasn't because we didn't have subsidized college loans.

overall literacy rate in 1920 was 94%

Brandin

Education is not a "product". It is a fundamental aspect of our culture. To use an analogy. Books are products. Literature is not.

Ixrec

@MichaelT did you walk through the full proof of Godel's completeness theorem or cover Kant's Critique of Pure Reason end to end? =)

user55340

@Ixrec Godel, yep. Kant was in modern philosophy.

durron597

7:57 PM

bottom line is that you don't need to have a four year degree to be a secretary, a carpenter, a mechanic, etc. etc.

enderland

@durron597 actually, to be a secretary you probably do now

durron597

i meant to actually do the job

not to get the job

i addressed this earlier

Brandin

@durron597 With the same logic, you don't need to learn calculus in high school to be a secretary either. But you damn well should.

durron597

@Brandin why?

Ixrec

you also don't need calculus to do programming, but you ought to know a bit of it anyway

user55340

7:59 PM

"Solipsism's Painless"

►

durron597

so many jaded youths in this country saying "why the heck do i need to know this?"

user55340

> Through the upturned glass I see
a modified reality--
which proves pure reason "kant" critique
that beer reveals das ding an sich--

Oh solipsism's painless,
it helps to calm the brain since
we must defer our drinking to go teach.

durron597

they're right... THEY DON'T need to know it.

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