The Whiteboard

@GlenH7 idk, is there?

if there is no other way, lie to me

user41796

That actually touches upon Jimmy's rant from earlier of so many front-end folk just following convention without knowing why

user41796

Nah, it's fairly easy to break things up and reference other files

7:07 PM

I'm watching a backbone js tutorial vid and he just keeps adding stuff to the bottom of his index.html in one giant sript tag

@GlenH7 ... are you lying?

user41796

There's a somewhat nascent movement trying to get better module support within javascript as well

user41796

lemme go find some links...

SRP is like, so last year. What is this, Java?

user41796

@Ampt weblogs.asp.net/dwahlin/…

user41796

He's got a number of articles on JS structural patterns

7:09 PM

the module... pattern?

Put another tick under "Patterns are just language deficiencies"

user41796

I don't think that anyone would argue that Javascript is lacking in deficiencies.

user41796

It's #1 defense is "it's still better than what the alternative would have been."

which, while true, isn't exactly saying a ton

wow

I mean I've used JS to edit dom elements and JQuery to make it easier

but making an entire client side app with no modules?

WTF

user41796

Here's an MDN link: developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/…

I don't even know what to say

user41796

7:14 PM

JS originally started as something to do cutesy stuff with in your web page

yeah... that's glaringly obvious at the current moment

user41796

and like a stage-IV malignant cancer, it got out of control and just exploded all over the place.

"Here's a little trick to get around scoping issues"

¡Ay, caramba!

ugh. Someone get my machete. We've got a mess to clean up

user41796

GLWT

The machete is for the people who did this, not for the code

I just need a keyboard for the code

user41796

7:17 PM

I don't think Brendan Eich is terribly proud of that invention

> The first version [of javascript] was completed in ten days in order to accommodate the Navigator 2.0 Beta release schedule,

additions mine

and here we are in 2014, slaves to using something thrown together in 10 days

user41796

How is that any different than many things on the interwebs?

it's not. It's just that apparently the paradigms of javascript haven't changed since the 10 day creation

user41796

@Ampt not true. It used to be much, much, much worse.

@GlenH7 It gets worse?

ugh

alright, I'm going back into this video

now that all of my fears were confirmed

lets just.... get it over with

user41796

7:24 PM

@Ampt Now you're getting the right attitude to take

Ughhh. I take solace in the fact that somewhere, someone has to be working on something better

of course thats probably what everyone else is thinking too...

user20683

@Ampt no, actually they don't

Statistically speaking...

user41796

@WorldEngineer - he can't handle the truth.

LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALA

user20683

7:27 PM

@GlenH7 So he's a voltage sink?

user15026

This conversation makes me feel better about how JS kinda confuses the heck out of me

user15026

I feel a lot less stupid.

user20683

JS is a mess

user41796

@AshleyNunn I have studiously avoided dealing with JS for years for these reasons

user41796

And mind you, I'm a professional bit twiddler who enjoys hunting down race conditions between threads.

user41796

7:28 PM

JS is just .... bleh.

user41796

But it's gotten a lot better.

but... it's the only option

user15026

@GlenH7 I wish I had known that before I sunk myself into 80mumble percent of the codecademy tutorial on it (which I hate but I feel like I need to finish but it just doesn't click in my head)

user41796

@Ampt Yeah, and inertia will keep it that way for a while.

user20683

@GlenH7 Seen this?:

user41796

7:29 PM

@AshleyNunn oh, you should still complete it

user15026

@GlenH7 I am trying to.

user15026

It just makes me hit my head against walls a lot

user41796

@WorldEngineer That's intriguing!

Thats a known bug apparently

user20683

amazon.com/Seven-Concurrency-Models-Weeks-Threads/dp/1937785653

7:29 PM

no fix has been proposed

and it's been marked as low priority

user20683

what's a known bug?

user41796

@WorldEngineer JS making people hit their heads against walls. Forcibly.

user41796

@Ampt - you missed the forcibly bit.

user20683

Solution: Wear a helmet

@GlenH7 I agree, yours was more complete. I retract my statement

user20683

7:31 PM

dibs on "helmet.js"

user15026

@WorldEngineer I tied a pillow around my head with string, does that count

@WorldEngineer make sure to put it in <head>

@AshleyNunn oh, does JS not support helmets yet? I suppose some pillow and string would work, yes.

we can call it the Head-Protection-Pattern

user15026

@Ampt I couldn't find it in the documentation so I improvised.

user20683

@Ampt That works right up until this smashes into Window.

@WorldEngineer oh this is out of scope? that = this

there we go. Problem solved

user15026

7:36 PM

@WorldEngineer but with the head protection it shouldn't matter if we smash into things

user20683

@AshleyNunn yeah but JS has no privates, so protection is difficult.

user15026

No comment.

user20683

well it sorta does

user20683

somethings

user20683

when it's feeling charitable

user20683

7:38 PM

and then you get on with the manipulation of the floats and hope that somehow you don't need to do real math

user41796

That revealing module pattern I mentioned earlier does a good job at isolating off the private aspects of a module

user15026

@ampt you were asking about D&D the other day - have you started playing yet, or are you still in the figuring out the bits stage?

@AshleyNunn Still in the figuring out bits. Meeting with my group on wednesday night to do character creation, then it looks like we start the campaign the following wednesday

still haven't even touched equipment

mainly skills and stats so far

I would be forever grateful for whatever helpful tidbits you could offer on playing haha

user15026

@Ampt Sounds fun. I miss my group - we've been super sucky about having schedules that mesh (mostly my fault, because I keep getting scheduled for late nights)

user20683

@Ampt you know we have:

user20683

7:40 PM

@WorldEngineer I was there earlier, hence AN knowing about my gameplay :)

but thanks for the heads up

user20683

ah

user20683

I played 3.5 for like 5 years

@AshleyNunn Always wanted to play, but this is my first chance

user20683

then I got tired of it and switched to Shadowrun

7:41 PM

yeah, this is going to be a 3.5 campaign

user15026

@Ampt One of my biggest tips would be like...talk to teh group about how they want to play. Like my group is 90% story, 10% dice rolls, but other peopel are like more combat more dice more powerlevelling

user20683

I've a fair chunk of experience with regards to DMing, less so with playing

user15026

whereas I refer to my group as derpquest for good reason

user20683

how tolerant is the DM of random crazy

user20683

<--very tolerant but enforces logical consequences

user41796

7:42 PM

@WorldEngineer yes, but by whose logic?

user20683

@GlenH7 Mine. It is impeccable logic.

user20683

I mean P -> Q and everything.

No Hal9000 has ever made a mistake. We are perfect.

user15026

Also, discuss how closely you will follow the ruleset. (we fudge a lot of stuff in the name of an epic story)

user20683

GURPS at one end, WUSHU at the other

7:43 PM

I don't think these guys are crazy into the rules, but probably wont let me get too far off the beaten path

GURPS? WUSHU?

user15026

@Ampt Cool beans. :) That's a good balance, I think.

user41796

@Ampt GURPS is a completely different system.

user41796

Or it was...

user20683

GURPS is a very heavily simulation type RPG

user20683

Wushu is very story driven

user15026

7:44 PM

@WorldEngineer I suspect we would be better off with a different playstyle/system than 3.5, but its what our DM knows, and we mostly just make crap up a lot.....

user20683

Amber has no dice

user41796

GURPS == SJGames, and D&D == TSR (or whatever they are now)

user20683

Wizards of the Coast

user20683

5th ed comes out for real next month

user41796

<sighs>

user20683

7:45 PM

4th was a disaster

user41796

never mind me, I'm just being old.

user20683

@GlenH7 I doubt you're much more than 5 years older than me

user15026

...do I actually get to be one of hte young ones? (in the bridge I am as old as rocks)

user20683

:16848515 Might be able to find a copy of the original Forgotten Realms for you

user41796

@WorldEngineer never played that one

user41796

7:47 PM

Did play quite a few of the TSR games from back in the day. Preferred Steve Jackson Games though

user41796

SJG was well polished but not quite as horrifically commercial as TSR was

enderland

is 50% reduction in lead times pretty good? that's what preliminary data is showing for my project so far. #winning

user41796

D&D 2nd ed was just a blatant attempt to siphon money out of the community

user41796

@enderland only 50%? slacker.

enderland

@GlenH7 we also basically eliminated a position, that seems legit

user15026

7:51 PM

Ooh, 5 day cricket test match. Interesting. ignores for three more days

user41796

@enderland job killer

enderland

@GlenH7 "job" killer. You have to be doing work to have a job right? ;)

user41796

@enderland wouldn't know anything about that...

@AshleyNunn I'm usually the youngest in here. Gotta keep these old farts from getting too uppity about theh youth and all that

usually they're raving on about their lawn or cobol or what have you

user15026

@Ampt laughs I am 26, so I am likely not super young. :P

user41796

8:00 PM

@Ampt <flags as offensive/>

@AshleyNunn compared to this crowd you're still just a whippersnapper hahaha (Specially that @GlenH7. He's older than some of the dirt you find)

user15026

@Ampt Perfect. :D

we can form the "Old enough to be your kid" club

We'll hold meetings about how to approach them on their clothing style

"What do you mean Button Up Jean Shirts are out?"

user41796

@Ampt Dude, that's the best part of getting old. You wear what you find comfortable and you just don't care what others think.

user15026

@Ampt do we get tshirts and membership cards?

8:04 PM

@AshleyNunn Laminated and everything!

user41796

I got carded the other day at the sporting goods store while buying a pocket knife. I literally bust out laughing when the cashier asked for my birthday.

user15026

Perfect. Where do I sign up?

user15026

@GlenH7 I went to buy alcohol yesterday (so many yummy things) and I was the only one who didnt get carded. My baby having friends all did.

@AshleyNunn Just mail a copy of your Drivers License, Birth Certificate, Social Security Card and Passport, and you'll receive your complementary membership kit in 6-8 months by mail!

user15026

@Ampt Wow, that sounds like a great deal :D

user15026

8:07 PM

Wait, I am canadian so I don't have a Social Security Card. Can I still join?

@AshleyNunn Yes, but you'll need to mail your actual passport, not a copy!

We'll send it back 11-13 months after your membership package arrives

user15026

@Ampt This isn't fishy at all.

if it contains a few more stamps, its only because it crossed international borders during shipping

they take it out and stamp it for you!

user15026

Oh, I see, that makes total sense and is 100% safe!

user41796

It's like they're helping track it for you.

8:11 PM

Will my Gorilla ever be as fast as my Shark? - cv-pls

what to CV as?

user41796

@gnat I'm in my usual, wretched state of affairs of being out of close votes. And Michael is out for the afternoon as well.

too broad?

@GlenH7 link me here, I've got plenty of votes to go around

@Ampt I'd rather vote opinion poll but too broad would fit, too (outta CVs already, thanks to recent invasion of homework dumps)

user41796

Looks like OP is about to self-delete

8:13 PM

too late

self-deleted

uuuggghhh. I guess I can go through the queue

user41796

The backlog is starting to creep up again - it's been sitting around 50 items for a while now.

user41796

I'm a bit annoyed at the locked posts with delete votes sitting in the delete queue.

user41796

Taking up precious space.... :-)

Working on it boss

-2

Q: Which algorithm is faster?

I'm creating a small game, where the computer generate pseudo random number in give range, and the user have to guess it. I also made the option to play computer vs computer. I mean the computer generate random number and the computer should guess it. The easiest way I found was to create for l...

That's not a great question

but the close reason listed is pretty piss-poor

user41796

@Ampt I think mine is the primarily opinion based

user41796

8:17 PM

I didn't think anyone would bother digging into it enough to identify potential speed differences so it would just be conjecture.

Being able to analyze two algorithms is a pretty core component to being a good engineer, but the question isn't phrased as such

user41796

Easier just to run both approaches a bazillion times and compare the results.

@gnat actually, that's an interesting question that can be discussed objectively – certain language features of Python prevent efficient memory management, which slows it down a lot. I think I once saw some slides covering this in more depth.

user20683

I'm with Amon on this one

user20683

but it is as it is

user41796

8:23 PM

If it were restructured, it could be turned into something constructive. But as it currently sits, it was begging for an opinion fest.

Alright, did all the reviews I could

I'm seeing 24 in the queue

*Puts on cowboy hat*
Y'all are welcome now, Y'hear?

@amon for this to happen, asker would have to put a bit more effort into explaining the problem to solve. As stated, it would end routine Gorilla vs Shark: "will it ever rival (or even come close) to the execution speed of C++?"

user41796

@Ampt Thanks!

maybe I'll hammer some more at it tonight when I get home

user41796

And I'm almost at 7k close reviews.

8:26 PM

loool

you have a problem

user41796

Wow, almost 1300 delete votes cast at this point

@GlenH7 I'm at 2,646 (not that it makes me feel happy)

user41796

I have ~140 re-open votes and a meager 3 undelete votes

@gnat not every language comparison is automatically a “Gorilla vs. Shark”. If the question were phrased “Does Python have any language features preventing it from being able to theoretically attain C-like performance”, then the objective nature would be more obvious. Unfortunately, it has been deleted, so the question can't be edited into shape >:(

user41796

@amon You can still edit a deleted question

8:34 PM

that's a good point. thanks

user41796

And if you can turn it into something constructive, I'll happily cast a vote to undelete

user41796

and / or you can ping World and he can insta-reopen if the edit is sufficient.

user15026

8:53 PM

Okay, so alcoholic ginger beer is surprisingly tasty. :D (it was one of the wild card "I don't know for sure about you" things I bought)

user41796

@AshleyNunn I have a friend who really likes it. I periodically look for it, but haven't run across it yet.

user15026

@GlenH7 I have friends who live by what I have dubbed "the magic LCBO" because it always has things I can't seem to get at the one nearest me.

user15026

I have a chocolate milk stout I am really looking forward to trying sometime soon.

user41796

@AshleyNunn I'm going to go with blaming canada in this case. :-)

user41796

completely irrational, but it's going to work for me today

user15026

8:57 PM

@GlenH7 Oh, I know a lot of my acquisition issues are because I am Canadian. When I can, I get American friends to bring me things, or I drink ALL THE AWESOME when I am in the states, which is rare

user15026

@GlenH7 Nah, it's all good.

@GlenH7 not having 10K, one can't do that

@GlenH7 Who wants to use a rare opportunity to use these undelete votes? “What technical limitations or language features prevent Python from being as fast as C++?” (10k-link for now)

user41796

wooo. I'm at 4 undelete votes now.

user41796

ok, so the opportunities to undelete are pretty rare...

A: Question closed because yes/no answer

8:59 PM

@amon that would be better, not a Gorilla vs Shark anymore. Though, "does it have..." makes a yes/no question, which are also known to be troublesome...

16

When asking a yes/no question there are one of two possibilities: You really want a yes/no answer. If this is the case, and you don't need anything else to answer your question then it means the answers will be inherently low quality. An answer that only says "Yes" or "No" (in addition to not...

@gnat not quite a yes/no question, as two questions were asked. To prevent the misunderstanding that the other question might be asking for a list of things (therefore being to broad), I rephrased it to “Are there technical limitations […]?”. There is really no good reason to keep this interesting question closed or deleted.

Q: Are there technical limitations or language features that prevent my Python script from being as fast as an equivalent C++ program?

9:18 PM

@amon there you go, undeleted:

-3

I'm a long-time Python user. A few years ago, I started learning C++ to see what it could offer in terms of speed. During this time, I would continue to use Python as a tool for prototyping. This, it seemed, was a good system: agile development with Python, fast execution in C++. Recently, I've ...

c++ python performance language-features

Thankyou @gnat for the 3rd reopen. For now I'll go to bed, but tomorrow I'll write an epic answer worthy of all this reopening-hassle ;-)

9:37 PM

1. Disagree, 2. Baseless, 3. Mostly a stylistic choice, 4. It depends; if you're parsing numbers in a big CSV file, exceptions could be a really bad choice. 5. Unless you don't need to. 6. I don't even know what that means. — Robert Harvey 2 mins ago

Q: Can Someone Please Decode this file?

9:47 PM

0

P P # €€@ €À PLOTABLE METHOD 00:01 Ÿ e ‚ =æ Mn ZB&A TIC Total Ion Current TIC €€@ €¿ None None W1901 ðYE AUTO Ÿ Ÿ 2 hydrogen S2 ÿ ÿ €¿ None None W1902 šÉH AMAX ...

programming-languages language-design

@YannisRizos "Can Someone Please Kill this with fire?" (I just bleh-flagged it)

Bleh! Leave this for Robert to deal with.

Nov 21 '13 at 20:08, 3 minutes total – 6 messages, 3 users, 1 star

Bookmarked Nov 23 '13 at 23:58 by MichaelT

@gnat Love the tags there. WTF does this have to do with language design?

@YannisRizos language design? lovely

Q: What techniques exists for good API design?

-3

In the past I wrote some libraries for nodejs at the moment I have some very small ones written in Go. When writing theses libraries I start with just writing the method names and then I go one write, refactor, write, refactor. After hours and hours I get close to a result which I consider to be...

api-design technique

Ripe enough for delete votes.

@gnat Why do people still think I'm a moderator here?

@RobertHarvey Nah, I'm enjoying your conversation with sturcotte06 too much to delete it.

9:59 PM

Blargh.

!?!? angular doesn't allow recursive directives?

Or monads.

Pshaw.

@RobertHarvey monads are fine, it just won't render templates deeper than a single level

...I think...

when given a problem, how do you go about solving it? what is your methodology? Now I have a particular app idea but dont know where to start.

Solving a problem is like cooking an elephant. You have to break it into smaller pieces.

10:02 PM

tequila helps.

You baste your elephant with tequila?

@fscore programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/35594/…

hm, now that I re-read that, the answers aren't stellar... let me look if we have a better version of the question...

@fscore first, I search stackoverflow for the problem, then I copy-paste the code from each answer that shows up in my search, in order, one by one until one of them fixes it.

2

it's very effective.

someone needs to make a tool that does just that.

All that Haskell/Monad training, and now we find out the truth. I am disappoint.

10:10 PM

@YannisRizos pretty sure that's already been done

it's an algorithm that takes code from SO and randomly runs it, trying to find the best runtime

@YannisRizos and we will call it Clark. It will live at our house; it will grow and grow! Will our mother like this? We don't know.

@Ampt gkoberger.github.io/stacksort

I know there are tons of websites for programming problems etc but which one would really help me? Like I would say I am 4/10 in programming skills

10:13 PM

@fscore your name is wrong, it's called a z-score...

Try reddit

4/10 isn't bad. I'm a 3 (3/10 is the max if you're a PHP dev).

2

@fscore your questions are way to broad for us to answer in any meaningful capacity

you need a teacher/mentor/really really good friend to hold your hand through the first steps

while we can sympathize with your plight, it's just a very large topic your approaching and you don't know enough to ask the right questions yet

yes may be but whats your fav programming problem website? Thats a specific question

@YannisRizos yes, this is the algorithm I was talking about. I imagine you could salvage most of it to run any arbitrary SO code

@fscore for doing what? I have a lot of valued resources for a lot of different things

I go to the javadoc API if I'm programming java, or to SO if I have an implementation problem

algorithms and data structures in java

10:20 PM

or here if I have conceptual problems

@fscore Get the cormen book

Introduction to Algorithms

Link to Introduction to Algorithms 3rd edition on amazon

Q: Where can I find programming puzzles and challenges?

168

I'm trying to find places where I can hone my craft outside the context of school or work. Are there places online, or books available, where I can access lists of programming puzzles or challenges?

resources puzzles contests

@YannisRizos thanks that helps

any recommendation for a good start from the list? want to improve my problem solving skills

@fscore It's a good question. We should slap the evil mod that locked it.

Yeah that guy's a real jerk

10:44 PM

@fscore "Alright, I want to get better at life, all the things, hey can you recommend where to start?"

It's just not a reasonable question to ask someone, is it?

10:58 PM

@JimmyHoffa 42

@YannisRizos: You're still watching that comment thread, aren't you?

Ah, no. C is still one of the most widely-used languages out there. You can't just dismiss it out of hand. Try writing a device driver in Java and see how well that works out for you. As for hackish workarounds, I'll stick with my error codes, thanks. — Robert Harvey 5 mins ago