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Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
12:05 AM
Abbey Road was done right before the Beatles broke up, at a time when they were having a lot of internal conflict. That only seemed to make the music better.
 
user55340
12:17 AM
@RobertHarvey I'm more a Revolver guy when it comes to Beatles, with a strong dash of Sgt. Peppers.
 
user55340
You've got influences from all four members of the band. Not so much a "one song writer" that is often seen today.
 
user55340
Harrison had a very different style than Lennon who was different than Starr who was different than McCartney.
 
user55340
You don't see too much Ringo songs, but they are there and have a certain vibe to them - With a little help from my friends. Octopus's Garden, Yellow Submarine -- there's a bit more whimsical nature to them.
 
user55340
On the other hand, with Harrison you tend to get a more eastern sound for them.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
All true.
 
user55340
12:23 AM
Harrison: Here comes the sun, Within You Without You, Taxman, While my guitar gently weeps
 
user55340
So that can lead to some other styles on a single album that - still a cohesive whole, but filled with multiple dynamics from multiple directions rather than a single style.
 
user55340
On the other hand, you go to (I'm sure @enderland 's favorite band) Nickeback and you see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_(album) "All lyrics written by Chad Kroeger, all music composed by Nickelback, except where noted."
 
user55340
Or even back in the day, the prefab four (note play on words) - The Monkeys - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkees_(album) - "All tracks composed by Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart, except where indicated." -- who weren't even band members.
 
user20683
@MichaelT Nine Inch Nails where-in everything is Trent Reznor.
 
user20683
same with most electronic acts
 
user55340
12:30 AM
This likely adds a fair bit of tension in the band - that each wants to take it in a different creative direction, but at the same time adds much more creativity to the music they produce.
 
psr
psr
2:33 AM
Oh, sweet, I've caught up reading all the chat messages. So, what does everybody want to talk about? Hello? Hello?
 
enderland
enderland
2:55 AM
@psr you read ALL of them? that's... both awesome and depressing at the same time
@MichaelT not so much. Also I'm currently spotifying Abbey Road and am still not a huge fan @RobertHarvey
 
user55340
3:32 AM
@enderland A former co-worker of mine had this on his cube wall:
 
user55340
user image
2
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
3:52 AM
@enderland I grew up with it, so. If you can get past the interminably long "She's So Heavy," the rest of the album is excellent. Some of it is sort of "show-tunesy," you kinda have to ride with it.
 
gnat
gnat
if this isn't spam then I don't know what is...
-1
A: Best Practices for MVC Architecture

AshrafYou can try EISK v7.0 – ASP.NET MVC edition, which bundles most of the best practices in ASP.NET MVC together, to enable web developers to learn and build manageable and high performance web applications with rich user experience effectively and quickly.

-1
A: .NET MVC project architecture / layering

AshrafYou can try EISK v7.0 – ASP.NET MVC edition, which bundles most of the best practices in ASP.NET MVC together, to enable web developers to learn and build manageable and high performance web applications with rich user experience effectively and quickly.

-1
A: Best Practices for MVC Architecture

AshrafYou can try EISK v7.0 – ASP.NET MVC edition, which bundles most of the best practices in ASP.NET MVC together, to enable web developers to learn and build manageable and high performance web applications with rich user experience effectively and quickly.

 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
4:14 AM
@gnat Cast delete votes.
Ah, forums.
Blah de blah de-blah. Yada yada yada yada PFFFFFTTTT!
 
 
3 hours later…
gnat
gnat
6:54 AM
@RobertHarvey no haz 20K for that. Just voted down 2 posts to avoid tripping a brainless serial-voting script and flagged for mod attention. By the way, you may have some fun checking their SO spamvertizements...
-1
A: I'm learning ASP.NET. Where can I find some (complete) sample website to study/analyse?

Ashrafyou can check latest Employee Info Starter Kit ASP.NET project template, which is simple, well documented and utilizes latest technologies and practices

0
A: ASP.NET sample applications

Ashrafyou can check latest Employee Info Starter Kit ASP.NET project template, which is simple, well documented and utilizes latest technologies and practices

0
A: good c# asp.net open source project for code study

Ashrafyou can check latest Employee Info Starter Kit ASP.NET project template, which is simple, well documented and utilizes latest technologies and practices

1
A: Where can I find a Good Sample ASP.NET Database Driven Web Application?

Ashrafyou can check latest Employee Info Starter Kit ASP.NET project template, which is simple, well documented and utilizes latest technologies and practices

2
A: Examples of architecturally well-designed ASP.NET WebForms sites

Ashrafyou can check latest Employee Info Starter Kit ASP.NET project template, which is simple, well documented and utilizes latest technologies and practices

2
A: Simple database "starter kit" for ASP.NET web CRUD application

Ashrafyou can check latest Employee Info Starter Kit ASP.NET project template, which is simple, well documented and utilizes latest technologies and practices

...along with crappy resource request questions these "answer" to
 
 
1 hour later…
Shubh
Shubh
8:20 AM
Need help for Final year mini project....
I am thinking of creating a web application to send bulk sms using the SMS gateway available using php. Is it ok to begin working or too simple to call this as a mini project. plz me help here...
 
 
3 hours later…
gnat
gnat
11:29 AM
@gnat: Additionally, why would this question be wrong if questions like this other one are fine? The asker describes perfectly fine the concept (so did I), and he is asking what is it called like (so am I). — Omega 1 min ago
32
Q: How many questions on meta have asked, "Why can't I ask this question when that question is open"?

Adam RackisOne of the main arguments against keeping old, fun posts in a locked state is that they create broken windows, which serve as an advertisement for the types of questions which are acceptable—notwithstanding the historical notice stating the opposite. I've never found that argument convincing, but...

discussion deleted-questions locked-questions broken-windows
...and, no I am not casting CV on above - simply because I am out of votes for today. Other than that, it's same gimmename garbage
1
A: How can I write a good custom close message?

gnatWhat is the name of this thing "What is the name of this thing" questions are off-topic. These are poor questions for the same reasons that "identify this obscure TV show, film or book by its characters or story" are bad questions: you can't Google them, they aren't practical in any way, they...

 
 
3 hours later…
user41796
2:02 PM
@Shubh Could be doable; there ought to be some frameworks you could leverage in order to make that work. So it would be more of an integration project than a "brand new code" project. I'd ask why you need to send bulk SMS though.
 
user41796
Omega - your meta question about why this question is wrong belongs on Programmers Meta. To get a proper answer, please feel free to open a question there, or drop into Programmers Chat on The Whiteboard. Programmers Meta will garner you a broader audience to answer why it's wrong whereas Programmers Chat will possibly get you a faster answer. — GlenH7 49 secs ago
 
user41796
2:35 PM
I nearly voted to close this one as the specific question is too localized / off-topic. But then I realized their question was just wrong because of the underlying assumptions. And that's what made it answerable. But licensing is kind of boring and I don't think the question will attract that many views. Oh well.
 
user41796
0
A: Software license for a publicly funded institution

GlenH7The owner of the copyright to the source code is the one who must make the decision on how to license the code, if any license is going to be provided. You have a number of misconceptions behind your question. As a publicly funded body, I am under the impression that anything that doesn't co...

 
enderland
enderland
man. calling into a meeting which is hosted at a different location with everyone else off site when you know more than most of them about the project is awkward
 
user41796
@enderland always, always, always keep the mute button on
 
user41796
until you absolutely have to speak
 
user41796
if nothing else, it masks the sounds of the keyboard as you multi-task away the prattling
 
enderland
enderland
2:37 PM
Oh it's on :) I've been IMing the two guys from my team down there. it's a complete and utter trainwreck of people who have no software dev experience trying to design a software tool when they have no CLUE what they are doing
not to mention we've basically prototyped 50% of the system they are trying to contract to build, anyways
so... that's awkward, too
 
user41796
Just a little...
 
enderland
enderland
and by "we've prototyped" I basically mean, "I implemented" :P
 
user41796
When you're a team of one, it's pretty easy to figure out who did what.
 
enderland
enderland
but turns out people have no clue how hard it is to design software, you can't just go "make me a magical software tool!" and have something functionally useful
 
user41796
@enderland "go build me a bridge" or "go build me an air conditioner"
 
user41796
2:41 PM
255
Q: Why can't the IT industry deliver large, faultless projects quickly as in other industries?

MainMaAfter watching National Geographic's MegaStructures series, I was surprised how fast large projects are completed. Once the preliminary work (design, specifications, etc.) is done on paper, the realization itself of huge projects take just a few years or sometimes a few months. For example, Airb...

project-management development-process time-management industry
 
enderland
enderland
I'd like to say "you have no idea" but I'm pretty sure you probably have intimately detailed understanding too :)
 
user41796
It doesn't directly answer your question, but gives a lot of hints as to how to help explain the differences
 
enderland
enderland
yeah, that's going to be a great resource I think
 
user41796
@enderland for those two examples? Yeah, I can probably provide a much better task breakdown than the average person.
 
enderland
enderland
I mean with respect to the "make me magical software for free!" thing
since iirc you also work doing software but in a more engineering place
 
user41796
2:45 PM
@enderland I have found that a quick requirements gathering session helps open eyes really quickly. But you really need to know how to gather reqs in order to make that effective. The trick is to start exposing all of the decisions that have to be made at the 30k foot level before you can even start considering the details.
 
enderland
enderland
@GlenH7 yeah. That's what I've done with my small team here and honestly I think the handful of us (with me as sole developer) are likely to be more successful than this huge "throw bodies at it" problem
because of the whole people being idiots thing. :(
 
user41796
design by committee is a terrible way to go.
 
user41796
One of the death marches I was on was like that. Frigging horrific.
 
enderland
enderland
it's ok if the committee is all competent and knowledgeable... problem is people then quickly realize the way to "design by committee" is to delegate/divide by committee :P
 
user41796
There is a difference between a "team" and a "committee." I don't mean to play semantics, but a team design is definitely doable. I have never seen design by committee work.
 
enderland
enderland
2:49 PM
Ah, yeah. That's what I was meaning ;) A "committee" of effective people will just make it design by team rahter than committee
 
user55340
Northern Wisconsin is kind of fun to live in if you like wildlife. This morning (1/4 mile from the office) saw some road kill. Ok, thats just November - lots of dead deer. However, this road kill had a bald eagle sitting next it looking at me as I drove past with the look that said "this is mine, but I've got no idea how to get this back to the nest"
3
 
enderland
enderland
 
user55340
And that was just a short distance from the office. (A year or two ago, I got buzzed by a bald eagle as I left my former employer's office - it was sitting on top of the roof when I left and then swooped 5' over my head and off to another tree when I got out the door)
 
user55340
3:05 PM
@enderland I wouldn't mind roadkill IF it was collected quickly and throughly inspected to a higher degree than farm raised meat.
 
enderland
enderland
just heard, "IT will take care of it"
oh lordy is this a trainwreck in the making
we dont have to care about this issue, IT will take care of it!

ugh
 
thorsten müller
thorsten müller
@enderland you are doomed now :)
 
user55340
That is known as the 'punt' - its a "this is too complex/ugly that we don't want to deal with it, so we'll punt it to another team so they can fail doing it and we can blame them."
 
enderland
enderland
you guys are going to get the play by play today I think. lol
@MichaelT yeah :'( exactly. or "I don't understand if this is an issue or not but our internal IT, known for being really helpful, will take care of it!"
 
user55340
@enderland (and thats why IT likes to cultivate a reputation for being unhelpful)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
3:15 PM
@MichaelT It knew exactly how to get it back to the nest. One piece at a time.
@MichaelT Upon closer inspection, it decided you were bigger than it first thought
 
gnat
gnat
3:55 PM
1
Q: Close Votes review: I'm going on a strike!

ShaiI know this question is going to make me unpopular here - but I feel I have no other options. I have been concerned by the size of the close votes review queue for quite a while. When I started reviewing (less than a year ago) this queue already had ~30K questions pending review. Time passes an...

discussion support stackoverflow review vote-to-close
I'm in - since May 29 :) — gnat 42 secs ago
@ShaWizDowArd but of course! tiny black ribbon is soooo much more important than 90+K questions that are worthy of either closing or keeping open — gnat 1 min ago
 
user55340
> There are times, of course, when roadkill is not collected for human culinary purposes. In Wisconsin, and other states worried about the spread of a deer pathogen known as Chronic Wasting Disease, the deer are collected by contractors and hauled to nearby landfills.
 
user55340
Its more a southern Wisconsin thing, though there is a county in northern that has it
 
user55340
 
gnat
gnat
@JoeW don't know if you aware or not but attitude set at SO (the largest site) appears to spread to smaller sites and damage these. Askers used to having their low-quality questions fly without problems at SO, go to other sites with same kind stuff and complain "oh why do you close stuff that goes so well at SO". That's a network wide damage, don't hope it's contained within SO — gnat 35 secs ago
 
enderland
enderland
close vote queue needs to be filtered by question age so bad questions actually get closed quickly
taht's why I think it's fail
 
gnat
gnat
4:10 PM
next step apparently will be guerilla against collider
@gnat Seeing how many bounties you're putting up and the sheer indifference from the higher-ups, I think it's safe to say that we may need to take things into our own hands. 1) Get a gang of 3k users to close-vote everything stupid that tops the multicollider. 2) Offset the multicollider by manually redditing everything else that is good. (That is: Give even more attention to everything else that actually deserves it.) I don't like this latter method since it will lead to spamming. But it has proven effective in getting attention to those hidden jewels. — Mysticial Mar 19 at 5:40
 
enderland
enderland
I think it'd be easier to just obviously push quesitons there
which it really takes like 5 people, maybe, to post answers and collectively upvote
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Well I've added the lamest possible form of ADTs to Melody
 
enderland
enderland
@gnat the CV queue isn't sorted at all, right?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg Link me again
 
jozefg
jozefg
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:17 PM
@MichaelT Damnit! Fuck you wyoming and you're ungoverned empty territorys breeding wasting disease to spread to us :|
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Interesting source bitbucket.org/jozefg/melody/src/…
 
gnat
gnat
@enderland as far as I know it's partially sorted. I am too lazy to recall specific MSO posts with details, but posts are somehow prioritized
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Its all ungulates - including antelope and elk. Trying to manage wyoming's antelope is a bit difficult.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT you should appreciate what @jozefg is doing there, it's a stack language
> >>> : t [true].
> >>> : f [false].
> >>> : if $ $.
> >>> : == {a b, [a b =]}.
> >>> : fact {n, [1][n 1 n - fact *] 0 n == if}.
> >>> 5 fact print.
> 120
 
user55340
(ok, not antelope - still, lots of animals in Wyoming that are difficult to hunt...)
 
user55340
4:19 PM
Chronic wasting disease
Chronic wasting disease (CWD) is a transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE) of mule deer, whitetailed deer, elk (or "wapiti"), and moose ("elk" in Europe). TSEs are caused by unusual infectious agents known as prions. To date, CWD has been found mainly in cervids (members of the deer family). First recognized as a clinical "wasting" syndrome in 1967 in mule deer in a wildlife research facility in northern Colorado, USA, it was identified as a TSE in 1978 and has spread to a dozen states and two Canadian provinces. CWD is typified by chronic weight loss leading to death. There is no kn...
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa It's a stack language with an identity crisis cause i'm lazy and still occasionally want things to be a little applicative
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg Yeah I see that heh, you're leaking some lispy in there
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Basically I wanted Joy with lexical variables + type classes
And this is what happened
Actually a lot of my programming is "I wanted XYZ + Q so here's the ungodly mess I made"
 
user55340
@jozefg I doubt that's unique to your programming...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg It's a great way to learn; you had a road map from others and some discovery as well
Always reminds me of the open source ncurses MP3 player I liked back in the 90s, learned a good bit because it was the best usability and functionally i had found but didn't have playlists, so I added playlist functionality with loop and shuffle etc
 
enderland
enderland
4:26 PM
@MichaelT its way more fun in programming though
 
user55340
 
user55340
>
“It must be suitable enterprise-wide,” the stranger replied, “client-side and server-side, in scripting, in shells and in spreadsheet cells. I need it real-time, multi-threaded and optionally object-oriented; with garbage collection, deadlock detection, custom exceptions, auto-resizing arrays of things and regular expressions for matching strings. I want the simplicity of BASIC, the purity of Smalltalk, the brevity of Haskell, the speed of C, the consistency of Lisp, the readability of Python, the flexibility of Perl, and the portability of... Java, I guess, but with native code bindings …
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Yeah :) And well, it's fun. This one could actually be reasonably usable with 2-3 months more work. This is part of my annoyance that fp for scripting is Ehhh at best
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg That's true, the best FP scripting is javascript and that fact alone says a lot
@MichaelT hush it, perl doesn't count, it begs to be procedural and functional but instead settles for just being homeless
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa I'm sure you could abuse perl's preprocessor enough to make perl into fp...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:30 PM
@MichaelT Yeah but then you're writing the language parser in PERL and...yuck...
:P
 
user55340
Btw, I like how that bit from code less code is "and the portability of.... Java, I guess, ..."
 
user55340
Btw, you should try to read it it out loud - there's a bit of poetry to it.
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa So now I have to figure out how to implement typeclasses O_o.. I think it's going to be another layer on the Melody monad transformer stack.. Which sounds less than appealing
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg Maybe now that you know the pain enough of what you are doing, it's time to learn a lesson about refactoring by figuring out how to heal that pain, if only a little bit before adding more
also... dynamic variables? really?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, they're stunningly helpful for configuring a DSL. And for REPL-y development dynamic variables + late binding aren't terrible
Eg in Awk-like DSL having a variable (immutable) bound to the current line
And yes, I think I'm going on a cleanup spree of Language.Melody.Interpret.* tonight
I've been thinking about the whole "No obvious bugs vs obviously no bugs" and I do believe both the parser and implementation of closures fail the test. Time for some revamping there
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:38 PM
@jozefg stack? Wassat from? Lens?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Stack is a lens for the _stack field in MelodyState
it's generated by the makeLenses ''MelodyState
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
gotcha
@jozefg I'm confused by your 'hash'
what is that actually? it seems like a hash is a list of hashes?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa It will be an associative container, currently it behaves like a dumb list (a list of pairs)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
That's what I thought
 
jozefg
jozefg
It's implementation will eventually change to be a Map and I have a few primops to add
Yeah, the stdlib is currently a list on my whiteboard
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:42 PM
I was confused by it because it says Hash singular but the syntax rules clearly defined a list structure; would it not make sense to make a singular Hash and then allow users to make lists of them?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa I'm going on ruby's notion of calling dictionary like things a hash
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Or rather are you looking for a Dictionary/Associative Array/Dictionary?
O, pfleh don't take cues from ruby :P Hash is singular and a way overloaded term
HashMap or HashSet are associative array implementations, those terms tend to make more sense
 
user55340
@jozefg you need a #include <stackoverflow/answer/102345> syntax to automatically pull the code from an existing answer into the question to make it easy for people to C&P code from SO.
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Dictionary sounds best
 
user55340
@jozefg Ruby makes a hash of hashes.
 
jozefg
jozefg
4:46 PM
@MichaelT And a special form in the documentation generator @NotMyCode{url} so that you can blame other people for their horrible code
 
user55340
@jozefg Thats not a bad idea to allow citations of where you get code to make it easier to lookup external resources.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg You also need a redefinable comment operator, so that people can redefine the comment operator to different things and use it to put inline comments that look like code but unless you read their redefinition of the comment operator you won't know it's not actually executed
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa stroustrup.com/whitespace98.pdf (do note the dates mentioned)
 
user55340
> This existing C++ facility can be generalized to handle user-defined operators and overloaded whitespace.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Oddly I've skimmed this before (I know because I recognize the bit with the unicode phone characters)
 
user55340
4:50 PM
double z1 = x y; // obvious
double z2 = x
                    y; // obscure
double z3 = x /* asking for trouble */ y;
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT I still like my idea which would make it so you could write things like double z34 = x y; without most people realizing that you redefined the comment start to '34' so the above merely declares but does not instantiate a variable named z.
 
user55340
I'm amused by the idea of overloading unicode... and I'm wondering if I can define a method in Java (which can support unicode) of so its database.✏️() and database.📖() for write and read.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
5:19 PM
@jozefg what kind of dynamic variables? Dynamically typed? Reassignable? Retypable? All of the above? (How is the language typed right now? Is it typed?)
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
5:57 PM
-1
A: Preferred technologies for corporate intranets

Diego HillesheimThe SharePoint is a great tecnnology to intranets, you can search for more informations, its beautiful

I can haz sharepointz
Also, reposting an answer that has been moderator-deleted isn't going to earn you any points here. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
ant this not span — Diego Hillesheim 26 mins ago
he makes a very good point there!
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Rainbows and unicorns.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
"ant this not span" I think he's making a modernist critique of how automatons like ants are incapable of accurate boolean logic operations like 'not' so all they do is write spans and divs
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Works for me.
"toma no cú, caras chato "translates to "takes in the ass, flat faces"
Time for a nuking, methinks.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:13 PM
@RobertHarvey I didn't even bother tossing it in a translator, I just assumed it was an unfriendly statement. Though I'm glad you did because well, that's a pretty awesome insult. You flat face!
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
A result of all the headdesks I've been subjected to lately.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey worked with Entity Framework at all? I'm doing some analysis of it, sadly I've been too far behind in the ORM game everywhere I've worked has lived back in ADO.NET or some DBMLs
I can murder up some ADO.NET bloody well, but that's not the way to go these days..
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Only enough to have some hand-wavy, high-level impressions of it. Which is to say, not much at all. I'm more familiar with Linq to SQL and some of the micro-ORM's.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Micro-ORMs?
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Stack Exchange uses something that Sam Saffron wrote called Dapper. It's open-source.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:15 PM
Ah yeah I've heard of Dapper..
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
It replaced Linq to SQL as their primary ORM.
Rob Conery wrote something called Massive, using 400 lines of dynamic C# code.
EF can be used in both "code first" and "database first" scenarios.
It supports different database providers.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey My boss is an old Java hand where ORM meant code-first, to him he doesn't even call the db first an "ORM"
Which kind of makes sense if you think about the term
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
It's more "corporate." Which is to say that it's more heavyweight and somewhat slower than the micro ORM's, but corporations like that.
Dapper has some benchmarks on its home page. Stack Exchange is ruthless about performance.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Yeah, we're probably going with EF just because we're pretty well uniformed on the MS stack as it is with our libraries. We have a minimum of non-MS libs or bits in our stack
But any other code-first ORMs would at least be worth poking my head at
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
It should be good for about 80% to 90% of what you want to do. You'll need custom ADO.NET or stored procs for the rest.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:20 PM
@RobertHarvey Unfortunately; a fact of the DBA regime we live under is that we probably will require sprocs
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Microsoft has been polishing EF for awhile. It's in version 5 now, I think, which means it's a pretty decent and mature product now. Prior to version 4, it got a lot of criticism, but I don't hear much of that anymore.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey 6 now actually
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Ah. I'm still in Visual Studio 2010, both at work and at home.
Should I upgrade? :)
 
Racheet
Racheet
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/218980/what-makes-a-good-final-year-mini-project

I've rebuilt this [On hold] question to ask about an interesting general case, and hopefully still provide useful information for the original answer. Would someone be willing to help me improve it further? I feel bad for him, and wish that he could get the guidance he originally asked for.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Yes and no. A little getting used to and I much prefer 2012 for some simple tweaks in the code editor (at the end of the day I live and breath code so that's 90% of what matters to me) like how it highlights text and finds things make it way worth it. But I always keep one 2010 open just for the TFS stuff because the replacements for the TFS UIs in 2012 are unusable. I mean literally. They're horrid.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
6:25 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm not a little too dependent on things like Intellisense.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
2012 checks out files from my solutions and handles all that fine when I'm editing and doing stuff, but as soon as I want to view history on anything, inspect changesets, or do a checkin, I switch to the 2010 window I have minimized heh
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
@Racheet That question is too broad. He needs to ask a new, more specific one, not try and fix this one.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Work in another language in another IDE that doesn't have it for a while. It stinks but you quickly get used to it. Just requires a lot more googling, keeping library documentation on-hand and running your code more often to make sure functions are there per the docs
 
Racheet
Racheet
It's his first ever question. He doesn't know that. Can you give me some advice on how to improve this question? I've just intentionally broadened it, because it was previously both too specific and also read like a "what should my next project be" question when glanced at.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I think it's less a crutch than people realize, but then for some folks, I'm sure they wouldn't even know what to look for if they didn't have intellisense to sit there and just inspect shit
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
6:27 PM
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Inspecting some stuff from the author of "The Hard Way" books I'm given to think he's kind of a dick and I don't know that his brimming-sarcasm and sternness translates to anything more than a holier-than-thou attitude, which brings us full circle to: Hipsters shouldn't write books.
 
Racheet
Racheet
@JimmyHoffa He may be a dick, but I've definitely gotten a lot out of working with his material, so he is at worst a useful dick.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Well, I think his basic premise is that every programmer should, at some time in their life, sit down with a plain text editor and see if they can hack out some code without any handholding.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey I think his basic premise is that he's hardcore, you're not hardcore like he's hardcore, and he's published; whoa is his hardcoreness.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Perhaps. But there's some merit in his approach. Nobody else forces you to type out their code, letter by letter, symbol by symbol. But that's exactly what you have to do if you expect to learn this stuff, and I suspect that most fledgling programmers don't bother to do this simple step.
It's the same thing as practicing scales on the piano. Nothing gets accomplished, except for developing your muscle memory. Which turns out to be everything.
2
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:33 PM
 
Racheet
Racheet
@RobertHarvey Certainly working through his books was the place where I learned that.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
^-- If you never read his famous rant against the rails community, it's worth reading
(the other of the hardway books that is)
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
That's the same guy? He does think a lot of himself, doesn't he?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Aye
 
enderland
enderland
@RobertHarvey I think this is important too
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:37 PM
how did I turn author into other? god my brain->finger translator has some serious idiosynchrosies
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
That happens a lot more to me since I turned 50. I have to proofread things a lot more carefully. But I've gotten into the bad habit of skimming things, rather than actually reading them. I'm still trying to ratchet that back.
I guess I'd better go get some real work done.
 
user55340
@Racheet the criteria for what is a good project or not for an academic setting is something that one should talk to the person doing the grading. Things like "if he violates the TOS of the sms gateway this may cause the school problems" and "that project doesn't show enough coverage of the material that was learned " or "no, php is not an acceptable language (for anything)"
 
user55340
7:01 PM
@RobertHarvey (gets out his cane) ... back when I was in college, I wrote all my code in vi. Not vim. No funky macros. Just 'vi' with the occasional ":!make" to see what errors I had where. And yea, that was before ant too - I used Make for java code too.
 
user55340
Even today I just prefer working in perl code with a raw editor than trying any fancy ide for it.
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa It's dynamically typed, so right now I have something akin to let and I'd like something similar but dynamically scoped
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
@MichaelT Pfft. I used punch cards in college. :P These young whippersnappers don't know how good they have it.
 
user55340
@RobertHarvey I wrote in F70 - while I didn't have to punch the holes, I did have a fortran punch card with me so I could remember what cols were for what.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg agh dynamically scoped ? Explicit scope changing or implicit?
 
user55340
7:06 PM
Col 1: comment
Col 2-5: line number
Col 6: continuation
Col 7-72: code
Col 73-80: comment
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Explicit, so you could have something like 
   : foo a
   : 1 {{a, foo}}
and this would be 1,
It's essentially an immutable global. But the lookup order is Lexical < Static Global < Dynamic
So you can never be surprised that someone has clobbered a binding that you were depending on
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg So as I read: line one there declares foo and a, line 2 initializes them both to the value of 1?
 
jozefg
jozefg
Um not quite : is define
So foo asks about the value of the free variable a (which is unbound) and the next line (which shouldn't have a colon, typo,) dynamically binds a to what's on the top of the stack, namely 1, then calls foo
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg why the {{}} there? What does that indicate? apply?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Binding, a single { foo bar baz, quux} bindings foo bar and baz in quux
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:17 PM
I figured : is define
 
jozefg
jozefg
the double {'s is just the first thing that popped into my head for syntax, I'll probably do something less ugly
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg It's not clear to me what binding is? You mean binding them to variables in the function quux?
Wish I could compile this thing and play with it, stupid 64 bit windows ghc heh
I should pay $10 for the hobbyist version of FPComplete where I can run it there
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa It brings them into scope. {} takes the top `n` values on the stack and pops them off, but binds the identifiers `foo bar baz ...` to push each value back on to the stack. So

1 2. % The stack is [2 1]
{a, a} % Pops 2 off, but then pushes it back on [2, 1]
{a b, a b} % Pops 2 then 1 off, then pushes 2 then 1 back on, leaving [1 2]
 
user55340
@jozefg Thats more commonly done with a rotate command of some sort.
 
jozefg
jozefg
@MichaelT Yeah, I'm looking to have a library of words to do this easily, built on top of lexical bindings
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:22 PM
@jozefg I see... interesting.. This would probably be a lot clearer if I went and looked at some Joy for a while first heh
so {} is pop,push
which is "binding"
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, you can for example write dup (which duplicates the top of the stack) as

: dup {a, a a}.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
gotcha
 
jozefg
jozefg
so 1 dup print print prints 1 and 1
 
user55340
Forth based language stack operations:
 
user55340
dup  ( a -- a a )
drop ( a -- )
swap ( a b -- b a )
over ( a b -- a b a )
rot  ( a b c -- b c a )
 
jozefg
jozefg
7:24 PM
@MichaelT Yep, I'm defining those in terms of a more user friendly binding instead of monkeying with a stack pointer or something
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg May the stack hold a func? I assume so, no?
then you can..
: ap { a b, b(a) }
print.
dup 1 ap 1 ap
?
except that how you b(a) is not clear to me at all
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa It can, but in a wrapped up form, you can box an arbitrary expression with [ some expression here ] and then run it later with $ (apply in Haskell)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg so $ is a primitive?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, it's the only thing that can unwrap Funcs
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
how would you write what I tried to do above?
 
jozefg
jozefg
7:30 PM
: ap $
1 [dup] ap
So we push one onto the stack, then a computation for dup, then run that computation duplicating 1
If you want to do something like `foo $ bar $ baz` in Haskell, you'd have to write

baz [bar [foo] $] $
Or just baz bar foo
The default in Melody is function composition not application, so it's deliberately hard to write something like that.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg I was pushing print onto the stack, then dupping it, then applying 1 to the first one, and applying one to the second one
 
jozefg
jozefg
Oh I see, then [print] dup 1 $ 1 $
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Gotcha. cool.
so [] boxes computations and $ unboxes them though wait, how does $ find the computation? What if the computation takes two members off the stack, does $ only ever look one-deep into the stack for the func to apply?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Whoops you'd need to use swap $ since $ just pops a computation off the top of the stack and runs it
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
: add { a b, a + b }
[add].
1 2 swap swap swap swap where's my computation swap swap swap o noez
 
jozefg
jozefg
7:36 PM
@JimmyHoffa (It doesn't quite work like this due to closures, but) basically a computation is a list of arguments, and $ executes them one by one
: add +
1 2 [add] $.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg so if a computation is down the stack somewhere it's basically unreachable without pulling everything else in front of it...
which makes sense, it's a stack language, just trying to think about that
@jozefg here [anything] $ is identical to anything
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa If anything is buried down on the stack it's unreachable. A computation is just another value, in the future it shouldn't be to hard to write a word nth that just grabs the nth item on the stack
@JimmyHoffa Yep
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg towers of hanoi :O
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
@JimmyHoffa Do you know anything about MASM?
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa Here you go

: nth {n, [no-op][{top-of-stack, 1 n - nth top-of-stack swap}] n 0 == if}.
Or pointfree

:nth dup [pop][1 swap - nth swap] 0 == if.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:43 PM
@RobertHarvey asking the wrong guy, you're the one here who's over 50
@RobertHarvey ...what are you doing with assembly anyway?
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
1
Q: Retrieve arguments of a x64 masm assembly procedure

UmNyobeI have a function with the signature : extern "C" int foo(int a, int b, int c, int d, int e); which is in fact written in assembly. With ml(32 bits), using standard calling convention you can pretty much write .code foo PROC a: DWORD, b: DWORD ,c: DWORD, d: DWORD, e: DWORD mov eax, d ...

c++ visual-studio-2010 assembly 64bit masm
He's having trouble getting the arguments from the stack. It seems like a simple problem (could be as simple as popping the parameters off the stack), but I'm not enough of an expert to advise him.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey I've spent my career way above the hardware, I optimize designs and structures and occasionally use kernel primitives for granularity but that's as low as I ever get at all
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
It's hard to imagine anything nowadays that would require assembly. There are just so many downsides to using it that it would have to be a really difficult problem to solve it with assembly.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Yeah, the only space I believe it makes sense anymore is systems development (drivers et al) and embedded (which is just systems development)
and even at the point of embedded, at Philips our devices ran the JVM...
 
user55340
-4
Q: Web making discussion, share your ideas and thoughts

AvikTHIS IS A DISCUSSION THREAD NOT Q&A. PLEASE SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS AND IDEAS. I am planning on making a website which mainly will be driven by community users, mods, and admins. It will be a large project but i am ready for it, since community like stackoverflow and daniweb is always with me.... :)...

discussion voting ideas
 
user55340
7:56 PM
At least the MSO types don't do a "belongs on P.SE"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
> To be successful on creating a community driven site this six path, provided by stackoverflow is grest.
That's another gem of a sentence
That there's a business man in the making, a real ideas person...
 
user55340
I'm sure he'll be looking for the site to ask for developers do it for free next.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT but when it's a raging success they'll get stock options so they're dumb not to do it, I mean, haven't they heard the story of Facebook??
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
That's just a "let's have a discussion" question. The OP's interested in water cooler conversation, not getting his question answered.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey At least it's MSO and not SO, so y'know, could be worse.
 
user55340
8:00 PM
@RobertHarvey Yep. Just one of those O_o type questions.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg Got me. I can't read that at all, I need to spend more time with stack languages. I can read it but I do not understand how it's working OO nth, there's the recursion... I was mistaking that for a variable as a let definition for a moment
 
user55340
-3
Q: The Computer Architecture

user109324**The pseudo-code for the circuit design of this photo

architecture hardware computer-architecture
 
user55340
(yep, its closed)
 
user55340
(yes, thats all of the text)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:55 PM
@MichaelT awesome...
> If this shouldn't be deleted, then I don't know you any more. I know we've grown apart, but can't you at least share this with me. This unsalvageable wreck. This most perspicuous shining example of a question adrift in a sea of rocks, derelict at the bottom of the channel which widens between us like a core dump that just won't stop filling... If you can't find it in you to delete this question, I fear I don't know you at all anymore...
My flag comment on that Q
I'm proud of myself, both creepy and poetic at the same time. P.SE don't you love me anymore? :'(
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
9:21 PM
Give me a sec while I whip up a visual basic gui interface to track this circuit design. — Evicatos 1 hour ago
Ah, a thinly-veiled CSI reference.
 
gnat
gnat
I didn't explay to play the community bounties on hotness formula card that way, but... why not
@S.L.Barth proposal to fix hotness formula got 9 bounties from 9 users, how much bounties would you recommend to get attention to CV queue size? — gnat 5 hours ago
and by the way, thanks again to all who put bounties there. I feel really honored to have your support
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Did you do what David Fullerton asked for? Did you formulate a more general question about the problem and ask for a solution, rather than proposing a solution that they'll just [status-decline]?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Unless my memory fails, the solution post was a result of the general request-for-solution post which came first being completely ignored for long enough
 
gnat
gnat
@RobertHarvey I did it twice, once as a reference to what seemed to be already what he asked about and second time, in a way exactly as he suggested - just to cover every possible miss...
regarding the "more open-ended feature request" you mention, does this one fit: Don't let questions stick to the top of the hot questions list forever? Per my reading it points to the issue almost precisely as you describe: "Hot questions stay at the top of the supercollider for too long" — gnat Oct 1 at 13:13
2
A: Feedback request: New top bar and MultiCollider redesign

gnatSubmitted here in order to ensure that involved feature requests (listed below) are included in the list of feedback items. Hot questions stay at the top of the supercollider for too long Above wording is as has been recommended by David Fullerton♦ here. Involved feature requests (listed in ...

...and guess what, I plan to do it third time,
 
user41796
@RobertHarvey I have been meaning to dig into those numbers as well to see if the trend could be manipulated differently based upon the details David provided.
 
gnat
gnat
9:33 PM
...in the feedback request for a new homepage, since it seems to be planned to be a new home for that brain-damaging list, instead of collider
 
user41796
I'm kind of doubtful that another approach can be extracted though.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
@gnat Weren't you, at one time, tying the problems with the collider to the problems with the close vote queue?
 
user41796
The current formula rewards lemming-like behaviour, and with the limitations they have placed on calculating the value it will be difficult to modify
 
user55340
It would be interesting to see the maximum collider value for a given question in Data.SE - just to see if on various sites certain people are "playing" with it.
 
user55340
I mean, I know we watch it for fun and profit. I wonder if Math.SE has people who watch it and slip an answer into a hot question for that little bit of extra rep.
 
user41796
9:37 PM
@MichaelT part of the problem there is I think they have a per-site scaling factor so the smaller sites actually have a chance to hit the collider.
 
user41796
The prog.se scalar isn't all that much, I don't think. Might be close to 1. But some of the really small sites have a much larger value. Or at least that's the impression I got when clicking through on some of them.
 
user41796
@MichaelT oh, I think anyone who understands how it works and wants the imaginary numbers would be doing that. If I participated in other sites, I certainly would try to ride the collider as much as possible.
 
user55340
Math.SE is the #2 site (202k), and is nearly always in the collider (compared to SO (6M)... or its peers (SU 197k, SF 162k, AskU 129k)).
 
user55340
Part of that, I think, is also site culture - that Math.SE allows for 'piling on answers' to questions.
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Funny, but I hardly ever look at the hot questions in the collider.
 
gnat
gnat
9:42 PM
@RobertHarvey don't recall, and can't figure now how it could be tied - if you're talking about SO CV queue. I can imagine fast closures at Programmers / Workplace as a means to cool down collider questions, sort of "guerilla" if you wish, but nothing more than that comes to mind
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
OK.
 
user41796
@RobertHarvey I would guess there are some significant cultural differences in how people use the sites. For example, I only periodically look at the collider and almost never look at the main page for progs. Now, Questions & Review are two pages I frequent quite often.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@RobertHarvey Barely any of us do, it's the wandering aimlessly clicking all the buttons they can find because "I wonder what they do?" users that end up following the collider thinking "OoOo 'hot questions' this is probably where all the best questions are! I can add my two cents to them for 'hot rep' !"
 
Robert Harvey
Robert Harvey
Ah, that was the connection. Bad questions in the collider attract more bad questions to close.
 
user55340
When you read them, they are often interesting questions...
 
user41796
9:44 PM
It could also be those that are used to a forum-esque approach use the collider more often. Unfortunately, that's not necessarily who you want adding in random forum-esque answers.
 
user55340
I have read Why don't metals bond when touched together? on my own... and Do zombies exist ... in .NET? and Any command line calculator for Ubuntu?
 
gnat
gnat
@RobertHarvey so do I. I just look at the damage done by artificial exposure, it's easy to recognize. +200/+300 views, as opposed to thousands that are typical for naturally popular ("reddited") questions, coupled with enormous amount of upvotes and meh answers - sure sign that collider... oops! did it again
@RobertHarvey found it! it's in an opposite direction of what I though about, and it doesn't directly refer the queue, but yeah, collider used to teach that low quality posts are popular and rewarding, and yeah, I believe it spreads it over to SO...
Aug 22 at 13:58, by gnat
in The Water Cooler, Aug 8 at 23:12, by gnat
...really, say guys at SO are protected from direct impact. Meaning when they see meh, they can flag no-code and get crap deleted. But thing is, it's SO users who look at collider and who visit "sticky" questions and who pick the crappy attitude and they get back to SO and get posting meh answers there

importance of hotness formula correction - Q&A

Aug 22 at 13:16, 42 minutes total – 9 messages, 3 users, 1 star

Bookmarked Aug 31 at 15:40 by gnat

 
user55340
5
Q: Allow direct linking to a filtered /review queue

Shog9I'm really missing the ability to give folks an easily-digestible chunk of the close review to chew on by simply handing them a link to the pending review items in their favorite tag. This was possible before last year's redesign, but it got dropped when the UI changed. As I recall, the hope at...

feature-request stackoverflow review vote-to-close
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT review queue bookmarks :o
 
user55340
And then there's also...
 
user55340
9:56 PM
5
Q: Display the number of pending review tasks created in the past 24 hours for the Stack Overflow close review queue

Shog9This is just depressing: And I don't mean it's depressing that there are that many questions that might need to be closed. There are nearly 6 million open questions on Stack Overflow - if under 2% of those are crap, we're doing great. Realistically, that number is probably going to get a lot b...

feature-request stackoverflow review vote-to-close
 
user55340
Not an announcement, @Undo - this is just an expedient way for me to get a feature-request into the system before a deadline... (which is 6 minutes away) — Shog9 2 mins ago
 
user41796
ugh. Case in point.
 
user41796
4
A: Laptop Rig, specs for programmers

DakotaI don't mean to resurrect this thread since it's 3 years old but just wanted to voice my opinion on it. From experience even though it might not initially make sense I focus on graphics first on a laptop. The harddrive can be upgraded, the RAM upgraded, and as long as you have a pin-based socket ...

 
user41796
Trying to decide what the most appropriate close reason is
 
user55340
Easy - the one in the answer.
 
user55340
9:57 PM
> but just wanted to voice my opinion on it.
 
gnat
gnat
This question appears to be off-topic because it is about choosing hardware. — GlenH7 51 secs ago
 
user41796
Where's a prog mod when you need one to close & burn a Q?
 
gnat
gnat
@GlenH7 while you can edit comment, put square brackets around [about] - this will turn some useful magic on
 
user55340
@GlenH7 Say that often enough, and a diamond will show up after your name...
 
user41796
@gnat When did we get the square bracket shortcut on about?
 
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