Ask Ubuntu General Room - 2017-03-13 (page 2 of 2)

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10:00 AM

I can find this one launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/amd64/libpng12-dev

cl@cl-uw-1:~$ dpkg --get-selections | grep libpng
libpng16-16:amd64 install

Yes I already have libpng16-16 installed but with that it just crashes the install script

When I don't remove the libpng12.0 in the install-deps files it gives me the error E: Package 'libpng12-dev' has no installation candidate

@Thijser hmmm ... seems to be a bug then - what about asking the devs -> github.com/hughperkins/distro-cl/issues ? :)

Yhea will try that one then

@cl-netbox ok. Obviously I do make mistakes/bad decisions etc so please don't feel like you can't question stuff

10:12 AM

@Zanna What about creating a "filter" for new users and their questions before they land on the site ? Answering questions and helping new users generally is time consuming work and it makes no sense to answer questions when they get deleted some longer time later.

Isn't there a review queue for that?

askubuntu.com/review and then under first post?

@Thijser no ... then the question is already placed on the site

ah ok

Hmm. I have to say that while that was an awful question and should not have been answered or asked here in the first place, I'm not sure what the point of deleting was. Please avoid deleting questions that are already closed as duplicates. They can act as useful signposts for the dupe target.

@cl-netbox we have lots of filters it seems to me... if you have a new idea, post on meta :)

10:18 AM

@Zanna and another thing : the name of the site is misleading somehow as it seems - Ask Ubuntu means you can ask - right ? we can't expect that new users study overly long tutorials how to do this and that if they just want to have a problem solved, it would be different if we called it ubuntu wiki or something like that. :)

@terdon the dupe target is also a bad question imho. Also I don't think it's good to have loads of bad dupes, especially of a bad question... broken windows

@Zanna All of them are crap. I changed the target to the actual dupe target to avoid having dupes pointing at dupes. But, in general, there's very little point in deleting a dupe and often it's a bad idea.

Good morning terdon ! :)

The broken windows thing has i) never been proven despite how often its been touted as a reason to delete and, more importantly, ii) cannot really apply to questions that are closed. They're closed, after all, so can't be an indication of the type of thing we like here.

Hi cl-netbox

@terdon Have you seen my apologies -> chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/35971402#35971402 | chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/35971404#35971404 ? :)

10:22 AM

Don't get me wrong, that's a really crappy question (and a pretty bad answer too: no information; just links) but why delete?

@cl-netbox Yes. I just did; thanks.

Hmm just cleaning up the stuff that doesn't belong I thought. It would be different if the dupe target was something we consider on-topic/good for the site

@terdon Good ! :)

@Zanna off-topic leads me to a question : you once asked how to pronounce xubuntu - what for me is totally fine (too many things are considered to be off-topic on AU) - but wouldn't you say that this is also what is considered to being "too broad" in many cases ? :)

Also sometimes stuff gets closed as a dupe to point OP in the right direction when their question is really useless even as a signpost (because we have umpteen signposts there already) and since those crappy questions will otherwise be here forever, voting to delete them after time has passed, is keeping things tidy I think

Good dupes = good signposts

I upvote good dupes

@Zanna Yeah, that is indeed a borderline case. It's just that dupes are a special case. largely because "good" here is very subjective. Good is anything a clueless user might type that could land them on the question. It is impossible to predict what that might be.

@cl-netbox why too broad? That's a question with one correct answer, I believe

10:28 AM

And having a dupe is often easier than closing each of them as too broad (which that most certainly was).

Google always ever only finds good stuff.... ;P

And deleting in times of unlimited storage space is not an urgent need.

@Zanna exactly ... that's my point : who decides what is good and what not ? :)

Yes, but search is bad, sometimes the question has almost identical words to the canonical post and still OP ignored it

Also sometimes a Q is closed as dupe but it looks like the target did not help, but OP is long gone, Q abandoned, unclear, etc

@cl-netbox We do. Each of us, as users. And no, we don't always agree which is why meta and this sort of discussion right here are important.

@cl-netbox voters?

10:34 AM

@Zanna Yes. Which is why having multiple dupes with slightly different wording is helpful.

@Zanna In that case, vote to reopen, not close. What am I missing?

I mean like, with or without punctuation, with "on ubuntu" at the end

Yes. Again, what purpose is served by deleting them? You never know where someone will land (remember that the vast majority of users come here through search results).

@terdon if a question is closed with the wrong reason, I don't usually think it's worthwhile to open it again just to get the right reason. I'm talking about unanswerable questions... every case is different of course. I try to think about possible value a post could have

Yep. Just consider dupes as having value almost always. They generally do.

I repeat that the particular one you deleted here wasn't very useful, it's just that it also wasn't doing anything bad so I see no benefit in deleting it. Even if it only ever helps one user out of thousands, that's a small benefit for no cost.

Ok, I will try to adjust my thinking... but some cases where I really want to delete are when the target is bad, and when the question adds nothing and has bad answers...

10:40 AM

@Zanna "possible value" is subjective and individual ... do you think that how to pronounce xubuntu is more valuable than how to install nvidia drivers properly, which was closed when I created a Q+A for unexperienced users ? :)

@Zanna But what does deletion add? What's the benefit? I rarely see much point in deleting closed questions. They're closed after all, and many will eventually be deleted automatically.

@cl-netbox I don't know whether it's more valuable but apparently it was quite popular

@cl-netbox Why are you making this personal again? This isn't about "but you also asked something bad". We are talking about how to deal with useless, yet closed questions, in general.

So a question that is not too broad (how is Xubuntu pronounced is perfectly answerable), is on topic and wasn't closed or deleted is irrelevant.

My rationale behind deleting stuff is to have less crap stuff, so people get better search results and the whole site looks better

@terdon it is NOT meant to be personal ! :) I chose an example because @Zanna eventually understands my point a little bit better. :)

10:44 AM

@Zanna Hmm. I wonder how true that is. Given that, as you pointed out, search is crap, I feel that deleting makes it less likely you'll stumble upon what you're looking for, not more. It's not like users go around browsing. They land here from search engines.

@cl-netbox if anything you are confusing me with references to that question of mine haha

@cl-netbox It's pretty personal. You started by mentioning that you started your week with -10 and implying that it was Zanna's fault. You then continued to mention some random question of hers that apparently rubbed you the wrong way and then brought it back to some other random answer of yours that was deleted. Those are three personal examples. Let's try and keep this general.

@terdon yes, but if there's less crap, there's less chance people will search by any method and land on crap

@Zanna On the other hand, if they're searching for crap, I'd rather they find it than not. Otherwise, they might feel we need some crap and oblige us by asking it again.

What really upsets me is when I see a crap question with a title that makes it sound useful, with no good answers and thousands of views

10:47 AM

Then close. It's the delete votes that should be used sparingly.

@terdon Was not meant that way - honestly ! :)

@terdon actually I think freeing space for people to ask questions anew is a good reason to delete bad stuff

Sometimes bad questions have good titles

@Zanna That one I don't understand. What do you mean by "free space"? There's no limit to the questions that can be asked.

@Zanna that's why I suggested a "filter" BEFORE a new question from a new user lands on the site :)

@terdon well I have to close first ;) best in that case of a dupe can be found, that would be a good signpost indeed

10:48 AM

The downside of that is that easy to answer questions will be even harder to find for new users who want to try their hand at answer questions

@Thijser crap != easy to answer. Or, rather, easy to answer != crap.

@terdon hahaha ... great ! :D

Yes but easy to answer questions will be answered by experienced users if there is a "filter area" where only experienced users can see the questions

Ubuntu Questions on U&L

0

Q: Bluetooth - Accept all incoming files from terminal

I'm currently running Ubuntu 16.04 Desktop. I'm looking for a way to start Bluetooth OBEX server that allows me to save to given location without any prompts. Something along these lines would do: $ bt-obex -s /path/to/downloaded/item however, this keeps asking for yes/no when an upcoming tran...

ubuntu terminal bluetooth

@terdon @Thijser @Zanna question : how to launch webbrowser app from terminal ... answer : webbrowser-app ... crap or not ? :D

10:51 AM

@terdon yes it took me a lot of thought to understand this - it was something jokerdino said. But if a question with the title you want already exists, you have to pick something else. But that question might be unanswered or closed because it's a bad question. And closing good questions as dupes of bad ones is a bad thing that could happen if there are lots of bad questions around

@cl-netbox Why crap? Boring, yes. But on topic and not too broad.

^

@cl-netbox that's a question that a new user can use to get used to the concept of answer questions!

@terdon agree completely ... some would say crap nevertheless :)

@Zanna Yes, but deleting all the things seems like a bit of a radical answer to that. I'm not saying one should never vote to delete crap questions. I'm just saying that one should very rarely vote to delete closed dupes.

@cl-netbox Well it is kinda crap in that it is obviously not researched at all. I'd probably downvote that. But, depending on the question and how it was written, I'd probably not close (well, as a dupe, perhaps).

10:54 AM

Sure, I don't want to delete all the things, I just want to delete crap when I see it in the 10k tools (or otherwise)

@terdon DV is too harsh ... I took the example because it was easy to answer and you said : crap != easy to answer. Or, rather, easy to answer != crap :)

I do believe on erring on the side of salvage rather than destruction. But maybe I am too much of a clean freak :)

Something weird just happened with invitations

what invitations

Journeyman Geek

@cl-netbox While I personally rarely downvote... "DV is too harsh" is something I hear a lot. What's so bad about a DV and when do you think we need to do it?

@edwinksl guess we weren't invited

10:59 AM

@Zanna no not a clean freak ... believe it or not : I really appreciate keeping things accurate and clean - the reason why I often polish my answers later ! :)

@JourneymanGeek I think the problem with DV is that often the first 3-5 questions a new user asks will be dovnvoted which can be rather demotivational (through that happens more often on stack overflow in my experience)

Journeyman Geek

@Thijser essentially though if not, it convinces the user those questions are ok

@JourneymanGeek Hello ! :) I am against negativity generally ... I only downvote rude and dangerous posts ... I prefer constructive criticism and write comments or improve posts myself instead of downvoting. :)

@JourneymanGeek it is a balance that must be struck, the big question is is it better to have more active users or a higher quality content?

@cl-netbox No it's not. The primary reason for downvoting is "no research". Questions that have simply been dumped here with no reasearch should be downvoted. If we don't downvote bad questions, there's no point in upvoting good ones.

@cl-netbox And you have been told multiple times that that is wrong. Don't downvote rudeness, flag it.

Downvote answers that are wrong and questions that are not researched and unhelpful.

11:02 AM

@terdon Very often when dealing with a new subjec on one of the stack exchanges I start by asking a general question that is poorly researched because I don't know about the topic and then quickly try to use the comments in order to do my research and update my question

Flag things that are rude and offensive.

@Thijser I'm sure you don't ask when simply copy/pasting the question's title into google gives you 12 answers as the 1st 12 hits.

@terdon in your very special case it is okay for me because you proved many times that you use DVs to improve the posts and later you removed the DVs after the posts got improved ... but you are an exception ! :)

@terdon I don't but I have found that after I research a topic more extensively googling the question again often gives me the right answer as the first result rather then the 12th page.

@cl-netbox Only because I spend enough time on SE to come back and check. However, downvotes are not negativity. That's like saying that a teacher is being negative if they give a bad grade for a wrong answer!

Same thing as when I currently google "artistic style" the first page is filled with neural networks and computational intelligence rather then what most of you will get

11:05 AM

Downvotes are essential for the site. Without them, the entire concept of SE is useless.

@Thijser Of course, because at that point you know what to search for. No, I am talking about cases like, you know, "how can I copy a file in Ubuntu" where any effort whatsoever would have shown the answer.

@terdon I understand your opinion because you also give upvotes ... many users prefer downvoting and forget about upvoting ... again : you are the positive exception for me ! :)

I think in those cases a comment explaining how to find the answer and a close as duplicate is warranted yes, however if you are nice you can then extent an invitation to chat with someone to explain the basics of ubuntu (that way he is far more likely to stay around and develop)

@cl-netbox I've never seen a user with more upvotes than downvotes. In my experience, most users only upvote and don't downvote and so actively harm the site.

We should all be doing both :)

I think we should mostly reserve extensive downvoting for users who should know better

11:11 AM

LOL: site:askubuntu.com how can I copy a file 1,270 results.

Voting should not be about the user at all

@Takkat I only get 18 results

@terdon do you mean more downvotes than upvotes?

@Thijser No, no, no! Down (or, for that matter, up-) voting has nothing to do with the user. Your vote should never be affected by the user. If the post is good: upvote, if it is bad: downvote. If it is neither, just meh, don't vote. Who posted it and whether they should or should not knkow better is irrelevant.

@edwinksl Yes. I'm sure there are such users, I've just never seen one.

And I also don't see anything wrong with it.

i already have one in mind

11:13 AM

@Zanna the magic word is SHOULD ... but (mostly) humans vote - right ? and please don't tell me that well honored users get treated the same way than others ... :)

123 up, 6612 down

@Thijser you have a system extremely different to mine - mine is the average Linux noob: I.E. on Windows 7

@edwinksl Oh wow. Yeah, that does seem a little excessive.

Still, probably useful to counteract all the others who only vote up.

How do you see how often someone voted?

@terdon you already know who that is :P askubuntu.com/users/10883/peter-mortensen

11:15 AM

@terdon The problem is the reputation part ... wouldn't it be good idea to do it like on meta ? no reps at all ... then only the content counts and nobody gets hurt. :)

I do think I am a little softer on downvoting questions from newbies if they will get closed anyway... It's answers that are not researched or thought about that I think should get no mercy because askers don't claim to know what they're talking about XD

@edwinksl lol

@Thijser it is on your profile page: askubuntu.com/users/219872/thijser?tab=topactivity

@cl-netbox No. The whole point of the reputation system is to act as an indication of how much the community trusts you. So it should go down when you post wrong answers. However, if people are getting "hurt" over downvotes then that is what they need to change.

I just don't get the idea of someone complaining about a downvote. I never have.

Either your post is wrong, so the downvote was justified. or it wasn't, and the downvote was not justified so you shrug, ignore it and go back to your life.

We're talking about -2 rep points for crying out loud!

Hmm apparently I have almost as many votes as flags...

Making a big deal out of losing two imaginary internet points is silly.

11:18 AM

@terdon to a complete newbie 2 rep is quite a lot though, I remember those first few votes as quite intense (and to me 20 points is still quite a bit)

I have ~2k flags and ~6k votes

My approach to downvotes: meta.askubuntu.com/a/15081/3940

@Thijser Sure, I remember too. But they're still 2 imaginary internet points and if losing them causes a non-negligible emotional response in you, then you really shouldn't be using this site.

> But sometimes it just happens. A downvote comes in which was not explained, is inexplicable or even unjustified. Nothing we can do about this, really. The more we had contributed, the more we all will be faced with this unexplained downvote. Inevitably.

That. Exactly that.

@Takkat great post :)

@terdon True - absolutely true ! But it is not about two points ... maybe I don't like it is because I always was against judgement of other people which I learned hard to be extremely destructive way back in school times. :)

11:20 AM

in /dev/chat, Dec 1 '14 at 13:05, by terdon

@cuonglm Maybe they don't like your username. Perhaps they didn't understand your answer. Maybe they are having a bad day. Or they thought they were clicking a different post. They might have done it by accident. They might have thought you were someone else. They might always downvote users whose name starts with a c. Who knows? It's never worth it to worry about downvotes unless there is something wrong with your answer.

Yay for downvotes. Later all :)

@cl-netbox Again, if you don't enjoy being judged, then you really shouldn't be posting on a site designed to have other users judge what you post and vote for or against it.

@terdon I enjoy these constructive discussions like the one we having right now and the way YOU are handling DVs and UVs ... what I said was meant to be an explanation for you to better understand my point of view. :)

Well, I have long ago come to terms with the sad fact that everyone else just isn't as cool as I am.

4

That was a hard pill to swallow.

:P

@terdon you are not as "cool" as you think you are (which is good) and as I mentioned a few times before : you are doing a really good job here ! :) What I especially do like : you stand to your opinion and fight for it ... is something quite the same as what I do - right ? :)

11:28 AM

Of course. After all, we're all tech geeks here of one type or another, and a more opinionated group of people than tech geeks is hard to find ;)

In my case, it's even worse: I'm a tech greek.

Anyway, the take home message is i) let's avoid deleting stuff that's been closed as a dupe (with some exceptions, in most cases such posts can be useful) and ii) let's avoid answering questions that are clearly not a good fit for the site (too broad, off topic etc) or, if we choose to answer them anyway, we should be ready for the possibility that the question will be deleted and we'll lose any rep gained by answering.

@terdon hahaha ... you know what is even worse ? a german techie ! :D :D :D

@terdon You are absolutely right and this is something that I completely agree with ! :)

11:50 AM

@terdon Exactly my slogan :)

Anyway time for me to go again guys, see you

@JacobVlijm You consider yourself being "cool" ? I have seen some posts from you (on meta and here) that lead to another conclusion ... hahaha ... good morning Jacob ! :)

@Thijser see you later ... have a nice day ! :)

Hey @cl-netbox, curious to which posts you mean?

@JacobVlijm those ones where you cared "a lot" about your points ... :D

@cl-netbox what has that got to do with being cool?

11:57 AM

@JacobVlijm cool in the way @terdon means would be to not care about your rep at all ... :D

oh, I see, somehow I linked to the wrong post haha. The one I starred was the targeted one.

@cl-netbox

@JacobVlijm :D

@JacobVlijm Besides that ... yes, you are a quite cool guy (in a positive way) ... many musicians are ... :)

The three stages after a downvote: how dare you downvote my brilliant work (15 seconds)/ OK, I got a downvote (45 seconds) / Wow, is this coffee nice. A downvote? when? Anyway, who cares. (the rest of the day)

@JacobVlijm nice ... yes ... but what if there is no coffee available ? hahaha :)

@WinEunuuchs2Unix But only for those who are not able to read the (existing) drivers installation instructions carefully and don't act accordingly (even though it's not too hard to do that) ... hope you're not one of them ! :D

12:15 PM

@JacobVlijm yep hahahaha

That's about the life cycle of a downvote :)

@Zanna I hope you don't and didn't take anything I say as a personal offense - it is honestly not meant to be that ! :) The thing is that I always say what I think and that I am "fighting" for my point of view ... if you're ever in doubt, please ask me directly. I really appreciate your good and successful work here ! :)

I didn't take what you said personally @cl-netbox and no doubt I have asked some crap questions and written some crap answers too. I just hope they are all gone :)

Ubuntu Questions on U&L

0

Q: Change,+,- button grayed out during linux mint installation

Iam installing alongside windows 10 and after entering the setup during the partition the change,+,- buttons are grayed out and i cannot select the memory space i had allocated for linux os

linux ubuntu linux-mint dual-boot

@terdon I have to say, ftr, I still feel I should delete crap, even if it's duplicated crap (surely there's a limit to the quantity of crap we need pointing to other stuff, especially if the other stuff is crap) but I will keep trying to look for value and try to think harder before clicking

12:31 PM

@Zanna Great ! :) Makes me happy ... but you and crap posts ? never ever ! :) I took the xubuntu thing as an example because sometimes I really don't know what is considered to be "too broad" or "off-topic" - and my main approach is to just answer questions the users are having. :)

That question solved a real problem for me... after getting the answer I went to a Linux meetup and an employee of canonical asked me what I was running... I was able to tell her with confidence!

....but she must have noticed your trembling voice and the short break before pronouncing the word :)

@Zanna we're nearing each other ... me personally, I think your xubuntu question was perfectly fine ... but others are as well, for a new user who wants to know where he finds valuable information about ubuntu or the terminal and gets a matching answer, this answer solves HIS problem, right as the answers helped you. :)

@WinEunuuchs2Unix did you ever get graphical glitchtes with AMDGPU-PRO?

@Zanna by the way, we all come from different countries, so pronouncing words "correctly" is not an important "decision" in many cases - example : nearly nobody in the world outside of Germany pronounces the capital city Berlin correctly ... and, does it matter ? No, so absolutely no reason to loose confidence ! :)

12:47 PM

@JacobVlijm hahaha I was a bit starstruck anyway!

1 hour later…

1:47 PM

@Thijser I thought about your subwoofer problem and did some research. Maybe I found a solution and so, I left a comment under your question, please try it out. I didn't write an answer because I'm not able to test it, my notebook doesn't have a subwoofer. In case it solves the problem, I can write an answer later ... good luck ! :)

1:59 PM

So the storm has so far claimed 1 car, and 1 school bus in the ditch, and internet in 3 out of 5 buildings...

2:18 PM

@terdon or maybe Tim lost his keys again.

310

A: Should 'drive by' downvoting be more effectively caught?

The answer was down voted because I lost my keys. Please, stay with me, let me explain this odd chain of events. Earlier today I couldn't get to the store on time because I could not find my keys. That caused me to miss the opportunity to run over a golf ball, which would have bounced between a...

@Seth Heh, thanks, I hadn't seen that one :)

VannTile Ianito

2:43 PM

Hello. I have a question that I don't seem to find an up to date answer. How can you change the dpi in Ubuntu (my version is 14.04) apart from scaling from System Settings > Displays (I am already doing that, but, as you know, that doesn't work for most apps - and it's quite annoying for stuff like Nautilus or Libreoffice). If there isn't such setting because the dpi is System Locked, would it be a solution to just us a lower resolution?

And one more thing, why is everybody talking about dpi, while it's actually ppi which is about screens?

Um. You're the one talking about dpi :P

Anyway, this sort of thing is much better asked on the main site where more people can see it and you have a better chance of finding someone who can answer.

VannTile Ianito

Ok. Thanks.

They're talking about dpi askubuntu.com/questions/197828/…

Ask Ubuntu Meta

3:00 PM

2

Q: How can I ask somebody to unlock the askubuntu.com thread for more answers?

There is a thread "How do I show active dhcp leases" The thread is locked by Eric Carvalho while ALL answers there are only partial. I couldn't find a way to contact Eric personally (didn't find the inmail possibility). I have spent 2 full workdays creating the working solution for the above pro...

3:13 PM

@VannTileIanito the ppi of your screen is as fixed as its size is. It can't be changed by Ubuntu.

VannTile Ianito

ok. Then naming is lacking. I understand what you mean

@WinEunuuchs2Unix : I see that jarno, the bug report person, chimed in on your selective kernel purge question / answer. I had pointed him to it on the bug report. However, he still has not offered to let me try his script.

@VannTileIanito if you're on an XServer you can use this answer: askubuntu.com/a/12618/3940 for adjusting screen geometry (i.e. display size in pixels width x heigth).

VannTile Ianito

3:38 PM

I'll read about it

Ubuntu Questions on U&L

4:12 PM

0

Q: Stuck on the login page

It is strange this morning. I tried to enter on my account, but when I enter my password, the screen was black and came back on the login page (login loop). I have easily access to the terminal with CTRL + ALT + F2. I am using the version 16.10 on Ubuntu, and I can't find the file .Xauthority. Co...

3 hours later…

7:05 PM

o/

@NathanOsman Hi.

7:22 PM

I'm currently editing a mesh in Blender with 1.13 million faces.

that sounds painful

It is.

Culling the mesh is very difficult.

Removing vertices freezes the UI for minutes on end.

Ubuntu Questions on U&L

7:39 PM

0

Q: Pretty urls not working laravel 5.2 on a https protocol

Pretty urls was working on when it was on "http" using this tutorial (https://laravel.io/forum/09-15-2015-removing-indexphp-from-url-laravel-5116) i figured it out but as i configured the "https" it stopped working, what did i do wrong? by the way i am using an ubuntu cloud server 14.04

7:51 PM

user image

Hrm...

Didn't work as well as I had hoped.

XDA's developer platform is a lot nicer than Google's...

Oh?

and updates are released right away

user136984

@muru: I hear you are now working in Japan? Do you speak Japanese then? :)

but it's not an official source, so it's the old sideload thing

8:13 PM

I'm going to punch the phone.

Stupid healthcare.

8:32 PM

AHCA?

8:45 PM

Super User elections!

9:04 PM

hue

9:23 PM

Heh, I'm on omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/03/… again

Joey posted too soon, though. I still haven't implemented all the features I wanted. But that's OK

BOOOO (especially to shock certain types here)

@JacobVlijm askubuntu.com/q/892702/295286 Not a duplicate ! 1) OP asked about the workings of GNOME shell , they're not seeking any command to close windnows. 2) they edited the post stating it's not a duplicate.

@Serg go on reading, he now agrees (and he should)

Incubator Bulletin is a Searchable Clipboard Manager for Ubuntu

??

@JacobVlijm where does he agree ? Which comment ?

@JacobVlijm that's correct. In particular, I want to know exactly what command/script gnome shell executes to accomplish this, as wmctrl and xdotool workarounds are prone to bugs. — Andrew Horváth 11 mins ago

Huh? you reopen a post you know has no other answer then the linked one? come on, show some respect and discuss first.

@Serg ^

9:39 PM

@JacobVlijm We can always close it later if it is indeed a duplicate. But in this particular case it is not. And again, OP has edited their post explaining that the post you suggested doesn't fit them. By definition, it's not a duplicate then

Then unanswereable, and you know it. @Serg

There is no such command, as I explained to him. The best help he can get is the dupe.

Totally answerable. You just have to tell them exactly that: there is no command. Sometimes appropriate answer that they seek is "no, we don't have stuff like that"

...Which I explained to him, and offered him the best possible solution.

10:11 PM

Hmmmm

...Need to make a website in two days. I can't tell you how much I hate it.

@JacobVlijm Let me guess, you're doing it in PHP ?

Everybody hates PHP

Not even that. Stupid plane html5

O.o

No, wait, what makes you think that gnome doesn't just kill the process group?

10:21 PM

Not really a html guy..

@terdon because if you kill a process group, window doesn't exit gracefully

@terdon You mean the window story?

Graceful exit occurs only when a window receives particular X11 signal

@Serg Depends on how you kill it; on what signal you send.

@Serg Ah, so it's X11. OK, but what if I kill the process group from the CLI. Why wouldn't that exit gracefully?

(Obviously talking about sending TERM, not SIGINT or anything aggressive)

Are you 100% sure that X has implemented its own separate set of signals and isn't just using the standard ones?

@terdon That might have been true in the past, when windows were instructed to catch SIGTERM and whatever else. Nowadays, programs are instructed to catch window closing event. In particular , this is how wmctrl works

static int close_window (Display *disp, Window win) {/*{{{*/
    return client_msg(disp, win, "_NET_CLOSE_WINDOW",
            0, 0, 0, 0, 0);

10:24 PM

@terdon I tried them all, not a single one did the job gracefully

OK, but what does _NET_CLOSE_WINDOW do?

that client_msg function sends XEvent which has "_NET_CLOSE_WINDOW" signal to the window.

@JacobVlijm Define graceful. I mean, what were you expecting it to do that it failed to do?

Programs are instructed to respond to that, not SIGTERM

@Serg OK, but doesn't X11 translate this X event to a normal signal, perhaps?

10:25 PM

for example, terminals closed with a running proc etc

Because X programs most certainly also respond to SIGTERM.

@JacobVlijm OK, so what is a non-graceful exit there? Are you expecting to be prompted to save work?

Yes, exactly that - prompt to save work

Yup ^

Ah. Dang. OK

or in a terminal "are you sure... blahblah"

10:26 PM

Yes, windows receive SIGTERM, but they generally don't respond to it.

@JacobVlijm Ewwww. I don't remember when I last used a terminal that would give me that crap. I think gnome-terminal did, but I haven't really used it. I went from xterm to aterm to gnome-terminator.

Terminator does give popup warning about tabs

user image

Oh. I don't use tabs.

Does it really?

Not on my system. Must be one of them user-friendly Ubuntu tweaks ;)

Which terminator version are you using ?

user image

10:29 PM

or maybe I just clicked on "Don't show this again" the first time all those years ago and haven't seen it since

And ^

Yeah, you probably did

@JacobVlijm Yeah, gnome-terminal does that. I was surprised to find out that gnome-terminator also does it.

I never use tabs though. I just split into multiple panes or open another terminal instead.

panes ? you're using twm ?

No, terminator. The whole point of terminator is that you can split into multiple panes. Otherwise, it's nothing very special.

You know, Ctrl+Shif+E and Ctrl+Shif+O

10:31 PM

Oh, that's . . . . I use that sometimes too, but I cannot get out of the habit of using tabs

I have been using byobu and screen and such, and when I do it's awesome ,but i cannot kick the habit

Heh, I never got into it. If I want a new terminal, I'll open a new terminal. I always map terminator (or whichever lightweight terminal I'm using at the moment) to Ctrl+Z and that shortcut is very deeply ingrained.

I don't get the point of tabs. If I can't see what's running there, why have it in the same window?

But yeah, to each their own.

It's just quicker ( at least for me ) to open a new tab than window, plus i can take up exactly same amount of window real-estate ( meaning, unchanging window size )

That's because gnome-terminal is quite heavy.

Opening a new terminator window is as fast as a tab (in practical terms I mean, I'm sure it's a few milliseconds slower)

I suppose you're right. I just can't get out of the habit, though

There's no "right" here, just what works for each of us.

Of course, if you don't do it my way you're wrong, but there's no "right".

:P

10:50 PM

Should be closed as dupe imho askubuntu.com/questions/891335/…

Right right, I agree you're wrong and I'm right :p @terdon

It's got 4 votes including mine with the wrong reason

@Serg Sigh. No, you totally missed the point.

@terdon shhh, don't give out my secret that I always miss the point

:P

10:51 PM

@Serg Everyone knows

But we are being friendly with you

Ah, dammit, but undercover is blown

If it gets closed as a bug report, it will not be useful and may get deleted, but it's a good dupe!

(Or did I miss the point)

Hmm going to sleep, will bother people about it tomorrow

Zzzz

Hello all, g'night @Zanna

10:53 PM

Me too. Good night all!

@terdon can we re-close that post that Zanna is talking about with proper reason please ? OP even posted an answer that references the post

My last vote counted towards the unclear reason, even though voted as duplicate

@ElderGeek :) \o

\o

g'night @JacobVlijm

Ps didn't fix the attribution of the copypasta correctly because I'm on mobile and sleepy

OK, so tonight I'm not going to class. Skipping in favor of studying for exam tomorrow

Question now is, how do I prepare

10:57 PM

@Serg Review everything? ;-)

@ElderGeek @_@ too much to review. I'll just follow the study guide our prof gave us.

@Serg One day I'll learn about rhetorical questions... :-)

heh

@Serg Done. Now, why don't you and @Zanna put your votes where your mouth is and go and upvote the dupe target. :P

11:14 PM

@terdon I already put my vote where my dupe is

Cheers

Time to make dinner... bye all.

Time to put my mouth where my dinner is

actually i already ate, so only coffee for now

Yeah. If you've just eaten, I really don't recommend putting your mouth where your dinner is.

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