Game Development

6:00 PM

yeh it's just odd

The complimation model being easier to implement is only a side effect, when you realize that defining your program's data and interfaces separately, before you implement, is highly helpful.

user4704

So header files and the preprocessor are a practical neccessity to avoid manually repeated yourself all the damn time

MickLH

Ugh...

Wardy

you basically end up writing 2 things to declare your type

one that defines it then another that ... defines it with code in it

Aidan Mueller

I've decided in my latest project that I'm not using standard inclusion guards. If your compiler doesn't support #pragma once, that sucks for you.

Wardy

6:01 PM

@JoshPetrie C# doesn't repeat itself all the time and that doesn't need them

MickLH

Imagine you are machining a car engine, working on each part in isolation, you might have ideas like: Oh, I could improve this duct a little bit by rounding it better.

Icy Defiance

@Wardy because C# does more than one pass when compiling, unlike C++

MickLH

After building 10s of parts in isolation, and the idea of the system itself has slowly morphed in your mind, you have some minor incompatibilities now

Aidan Mueller

Am I the only one who actually kind of likes macros (not that I abuse them)?

MickLH

Ok, long story short...

Implementation is part debugging.

Wardy

6:02 PM

@IcyDefiance hense the msil + jit

MickLH

Writing .h files is designing your code.

Writing .cpp files is debugging your implementation.

Wardy

does c++ not msil compile too?

MickLH

They are separate phases, do you see, or am I talking to a wall here @Wardy?

Ok, wall, got it!

C# is convenient and great, but they very VERY clearly did not understand the reason for dividing these phases.

Wardy

uh there are interfaces for that

MickLH

Surely some maintainers do realize it, but then you can justify it because it's supposed to be convenient for the programmer.

Icy Defiance

6:04 PM

nah C# interfaces serve a different purpose

Aidan Mueller

Who needs that. I just use goto statements for everything.

Icy Defiance

the object explorer in visual studio would be the closest thing to a header file

Aidan Mueller

Neal Stephenson thinks it's cute to name his labels 'dengo'

MickLH

And while, yes, it is amazingly convenient... It guides newbies away from the light in that respect

Wardy

@IcyDefiance that makes sense, its a high level look at the project and the containing types and their definitions

MickLH

6:06 PM

I promise any and all of you that you either already know what I mean, or you stand to increase your productivity in large projects with that advice.

Wardy

but if thats all they do ... why could c++ not just have that in the object explorer?

Aidan Mueller

Note that the same thing will happen if you use Java for too long.

Icy Defiance

object explorer isn't part of the language, and before bulky IDEs like VS became common, object explorer didn't exist

hell even in VS, I'm not sure if it exists for C++

Wardy

@IcyDefiance probably not

Icy Defiance

if you're writing code in vim, header files are pretty nice

MickLH

6:08 PM

I'm gonna try to re-state it in a fresh way... but this isn't a quick simple concept to portray...

Aidan Mueller

I use YouCompleteMe for vim.

Icy Defiance

shit, my headphones are starting to fall apart. guess that's what I get for buying a $40 pair.

MickLH

Maybe @Ali.S has figured this out, lets roll the dice. @Ali.S Main benefit of header files?

Aidan Mueller

ATH-M50x.

Good sound. Could be a bit more comfortable though, TBH.

Ali.S

@MickLH what?

Icy Defiance

6:10 PM

what I really wish VS could do is implement a header file after it was typed out. just click a button and it autogenerates variables and empty functions in the cpp file.
maybe it can but I didn't see a button like that

Ali.S

oh...

MickLH

Thank you

Ali.S

headers are there to reduce the compile time

MickLH

God damnit

Ali.S

that' the biggest benefit

Icy Defiance

6:10 PM

lol

MickLH

That's the same side effect Josh pointed out

The one I spent 10 years thinking was the main benefit, before I understood something that the best programmer I've ever met told me.

> "Write your code, then debug it."

user4704

@Wardy C# makes hundreds of passes over your source code.

user4704

Or at least tens.

Ali.S

actually I can think of another benefit...

reading header files is way easier than reading the code

meaning you can search through them way faster...

user4704

The compilation model of C++ comes from an age where optimizing for certain things -- namely separate compilation of TUs -- bought huge gains.

user4704

6:12 PM

That's not really the case any more so modern languages optimize for different things.

Wardy

@JoshPetrie i doubt its that many but sure, these days I wouldn't consider compile times an important thing though I do accept that at some point in the past cpu cycles were costly

MickLH

@Ali.S Now we're touching on it... They describe the entire program, the data structure, the interfaces, even hint at the intended usage

All without describing the implementation at all

Ali.S

@MickLH again that's just not important in modern languages with modern IDEs

Wardy

Personally the only time I find compile times an issue is when my solution is too big and needs breaking up in to smaller packages

user4704

@Wardy Definitely tens. Probably not hundreds; it dpeends on what you start to consider a pass

user4704

6:13 PM

See for example blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2010/02/04/…

Wardy

that just forces me to work more structured

MickLH

@Ali.S stop you already proved to not be up to date on this topic

Compile times have not mattered for years, C++ has kept updating though.

Do you think they just... missed that?

Writing the .h files is writing your code. By the time you write .cpp files, all the algorithms are invented.

> all the algorithms are invented.

The code is already designed, when you're done with the .h files.

Writing .cpp files is DEBUGGING.

Ali.S

@MickLH they didn't miss it.. it was just too costly for a well established language to change it's paradigm

user4704

@Wardy (and no, C++ doesn't compile to IL)

MickLH

@Ali.S We can easily just add the capability for the compiler to do multiple passes in C++11

And just let it infer the .h from the .cpp

And still be backwards compatible, so your argument is demolished completely.

Feel free to show me proof, but it will be fallacy, since your argument was already deconstructed accurately.

Ali.S

6:15 PM

@MickLH actually it's not that easy...

MickLH

> Writing .cpp files is DEBUGGING.

4 mins ago, by MickLH

> "Write your code, then debug it."

Wardy

@JoshPetrie this is an interesting read ... give me a minute to digest

Aidan Mueller

I prefer to debug code that I haven't written yet.

MickLH

Does anyone get it? or should I just go back to making 3x as much as anyone else on my team?

user4704

It's a bit outdated now I think, but if anything they probably added more passes. One could poke around in Roslyn to be sure but I can't be bothered :D

Icy Defiance

6:17 PM

@MickLH not sure it can be explained any clearer than what you've done, lol

Aidan Mueller

@MickLH I think I get it :)

Ali.S

@MickLH it's not that we don't get it... it's just that we (at least me) don't agree with you on that point

MickLH

@Ali.S Just for your sake, I will re-iterate that I would have agreed with you for the last 10.5 years.

Aidan Mueller

@Ali.S You are .5 years too late.

Ali.S

@AidanMueller ?

Icy Defiance

6:19 PM

there's snow outside right now. we're all .5 years too late. need to back to late spring when it was warmer.

MickLH

Woah awesome context, now generalizing to 0.5 years off is accurate, because 0.5 years early would work too

Wardy

@JoshPetrie they could easily do the bulk of those passes in 1 hit

Aidan Mueller

@IcyDefiance Snow? LOL. 56 degrees and sunny here.

Wardy

there is one thing i like about header files though ... forces the c++ dev to design code interface first

promotes good design at least

MickLH

:)

Aidan Mueller

6:24 PM

...which is exactly what MickLH was trying to say.

Wardy

I do that in c#

MickLH

don't get upset @AidanMueller, this is how he accepts my advice lol

Aidan Mueller

Haha.

Wardy

its not forced on me ... but i do it anyway

Ali.S

@MickLH when I write code... I actually start by writing the listing the main features that the code is supposed to do (writing headers)... then I start writing their implementation, using whatever function I need without caring if I already defined that function (writing cpp)... then I go back to headers and add the functions I've missed, come back and implement those...

user4704

6:24 PM

@Wardy Sure, but the point is they do more than C++ does, that's all.

Ali.S

I go back and forth until there is no function to implement

MickLH

I used to do that too but it screeches large projects to a halt quickly

Ali.S

it's not really about which one should come first it's all about how I think... and separating them isn't that useful

Wardy

@JoshPetrie yeh i got the impression that some of those passes were because the language was doing something new / not need in c++

Aidan Mueller

The problem with that is that you end up implementing features that you don't necessarily need.

Ali.S

6:26 PM

@Wardy problem is it doesn't... despite the whole promises that method offers, it'll actually perform worst (in my experience)

MickLH

lol

You'll see the light eventually, @Ali.S

Wardy

@Ali.S you start with a design then implement it

not the other way round

MickLH

It only feels worse because you don't get the positive feedback from the program itself working

user4704

One of the bigger ones you need headers for is name declaration, for example, if you make one pass to look for names and do nothing else, before you do a pass to actually compile things, you can avoid the need to pre-declare everything.

Aidan Mueller

I prefer to think about things as objects now. What makes sense to be an object. What belongs where.

Wardy

6:28 PM

@JoshPetrie pre declare?

Ali.S

I always end up over-engineering/over-complecating things when I try to design first... which is pretty useful when I don't have a clue what the code is going to look like (for the few days before I actually start the project)

but after that it's just a waste of time...

Wardy

@AidanMueller yeh this whole conversation is essentially about the interfaces of those objects (and how the compiler reads them)

Aidan Mueller

Which is why you add functionality as it's needed.

Wardy

so question ...

if something isn't in a header file

will the compiler not compile it?

Ali.S

@AidanMueller the key is "as it's needed"... and you don't really know what's needed before getting dirty with cpp

MickLH

6:29 PM

After being really disciplined and fully designing a system on paper, then spending over a week writing code, and then compiling it and finding that the only errors were ~2 obvious typos and then it works flawlessly as intended... The reward of seeing your program half-work early is no longer enough.

Wardy

or will it throw an exception

@Ali.S don't you? ... i guess that depends on your design depth

MickLH

Ah perfect! "design depth" that's pretty much exactly where I'm going with that point.

If your design does not go deep enough to know what is necessary for.... your design

Do I need to finish that sentence?

user4704

@Wardy The compiler doesn't generally care about header files.

Wardy

huh?

I htought you guys were saying they are needed to reduce the number of passes it makes

user4704

The compiler doesn't make a distinction; you give it a file (usually a .cpp) and it compiles that file.

Ali.S

6:31 PM

@MickLH what if I told you desiging that usually takes me about 5-10 minutes (for most of things I've ever did). and comparing that to what other people in my team do... my solutions are usually both faster and easier to implement (though more complex sometimes)

user4704

You usually do not give it header files.

Wardy

hmmm now im really confused

user4704

Because the compiler runs the preprocessor on the input .cpp, which resolves #includes by doing dumb textual copy-paste.

MickLH

@Ali.S What if I told you spending another 5 - 10 minutes on design could save you >10 minutes on the "back and forth" later?

user4704

And by pre-declare I mean that C++ requires you to do: void foo(); before you can call foo() somewhere.

MickLH

6:33 PM

@Ali.S What if I told you, there is a critical "design depth" where the back and forth crosses zero?

Ali.S

@MickLH what if I told you all back and forth step is usually just adding setters/getters?

MickLH

Then you only needed like... 1 more minute of design to save that back and forth :P

Wardy

ok so the benefit of header files is nothing to do with the compiler now? its a user thing

Ali.S

I know but who cares... it only takes me one minute to go back and forth.. why should I bother with hypothesis when I actually test my solution before writing extra stuff?

user4704

@Wardy Yes, the benefit of header files is that you don't have to manually copy-and-paste or otherwise retype the definitions of things.

Wardy

6:34 PM

but i never do that in c# either

and that don't have them

user4704

Because header files are how C++ accomplishes that.

MickLH

@Ali.S 1 minute (back and) forth + 1 minute coding + 1 minute back (and forth) = 3 minutes > 1 minute design

Wardy

@JoshPetrie does c++ not have namespaces then?

user4704

C# accomplishes that feat by doing an extra pass over the source code looking for names first. C++ expects all names to be declared above their first use.

user4704

@Wardy It does.

Icy Defiance

6:35 PM

you could put all the content of a header file at the top of a cpp file, right?

MickLH

Yes

Icy Defiance

it's just a lot nicer to separate that into a new file

user4704

You can write C++ without header files just fine... but if you do so, and you have foo.cpp and bar.cpp and you want to use some class C in both, you have to manually write the definition of C in both source files.

MickLH

C++ compiler can't handle #include

user4704

And it has to match exactly.

MickLH

6:36 PM

The preprocessor literally does find and replace, replaces #include lines with their target file contents.

Wardy

@JoshPetrie ah now im getting it

MickLH

Then this big monster auto-pasted together file is compiled as C++

Wardy

c# treats the definition as exactly that

c++ does not

it uses the headers for that

is that what you mean?

user4704

So to avoid that insanity, C++ uses a preprocessor so you can write that definition once and automatically paste the content of that definition into other files.

user4704

That's what #include does.

MickLH

6:37 PM

@Wardy That's a skewed way to say "C# infers the definition from the implementation", but sure. Yeah.

Aidan Mueller

@JoshPetrie ...And that would be fine, as long as foo.cpp doesn't walk into a bar.cpp.

7

Wardy

I always thought of xinclude as basically doing the same thing a using statement does in c#

user4704

@AidanMueller I hate you.

Ali.S

@MickLH all I can say is that in practice these two methods won't make that much of difference in implementation time.... except I'm sure I critically need something before adding it to header...

MickLH

@Wardy Not at all

Aidan Mueller

6:37 PM

:D

Wardy

@MickLH well thats what all those compiler passes essentially do

user4704

@Wardy It's way dumber than what C# does

MickLH

2 mins ago, by MickLH

The preprocessor literally does find and replace, replaces #include lines with their target file contents.

That's it. 100%

All it does, and exactly what it does. Nothing special. Nothing hidden.

Automated copy/paste

Wardy

so compiling c++ results in a ton of copying?

Ali.S

include doesn't even check if that file is already included...

Wardy

6:39 PM

so common utils are copied all over the place in a c++ compilation result?

Lasse

@Wardy yes, that's why compiling some C++ projects is very slow

Ali.S

that's why you see '#pragma once' in the first line of every header (or '#ifndef')

user4704

@Wardy Yes.

MickLH

@Wardy You can use gcc -E to run the pre-processor only, this will literally stuff all the standard library headers into your program where you included them.

Wardy

@Lasse ah so the header files remove the need to do that by copying the definition to 1 place higher up ?

MickLH

6:40 PM

The resulting monster file, is actual C++.

We actually code for the pre-processor, and that generates the C / C++ for us.

Wardy

compiler are beastly things lol

MickLH

I feel that I got my 2 cents welded onto this merry go round now, back to work

Ali.S

@Wardy not every compiler... it's C++ that's overcomplicating stuff

Wardy

I guess the reasons behind all this are legacy

user4704

Yeah.

user4704

6:42 PM

And inertia.

MickLH

Except the part that Ali and Josh completely missed :P

Ali.S

@Wardy not all legacy... as we were talking with mick.. it has legacy roots... but it has uses even in newer days

MickLH

The part where .h files steer you towards intelligent design, instead of trial and error evolution.

Wardy

so would you guys say the c# compilation process is more efficient overall?

in terms of output

user4704

I dunno, I think that's a... complex metric to evaluate.

MickLH

6:43 PM

Define the efficiency metric objectively, and I might take a stab at evaluating it :P

Ali.S

@Wardy that has nothing to do with anything said here

Wardy

@MickLH good design should be inherent to all code ... c# just gives you the opportunity to ignore that

Ali.S

@MickLH I didn't miss... I just didn't totally agree

there is a big difference

MickLH

@Ali.S If you can explain what I mean, I believe you.

Otherwise... otherwise.

Wardy

I guess the only way to tell would be to write the same code in 2 languages and see what they produce ... i'm sure theres been tons on this in blogs

user4704

6:45 PM

@Wardy Even that is a bit flawed.

MickLH

That would be a fallacy

Ali.S

By writing header files first (which most programmers usually do) and forcing programmers to think separately for headers, The c++ community is kind of forcing people to think and design the structure of their code, before trying to implement it

Wardy

might go digging ... for some interesting reading materials

MickLH

@Ali.S Thank you, for proving that your view is exactly what I expected.

Ali.S

@MickLH was I accurate enough?

MickLH

6:46 PM

No.

user4704

Different languages have different paradigms and idioms for doing things; writing "the same code" in two languages can easily skew the results towards the language that better matches the idioms of the code.

Ali.S

well then... please explain... what I missed?

Wardy

the oint is that surely what should be inmportant for a compiler is the output not its performance (although thats more a recent thing I would guess)

Ali.S

I genuinely want to know...

MickLH

I am focused on "Why?" not "What?"

user4704

6:46 PM

@Wardy Well, no.

user4704

The performance of the code produced by a compiler is important.

user4704

But that is often dictated more by the language itself than the language's compilation model.

Wardy

@JoshPetrie thats what i meant

user4704

The actual performance the compiler itself is also important.

user4704

Regardless of the quality of the output code.

Wardy

6:47 PM

in some situations sure

user4704

That has a lot to do with the compilation model.

user4704

They are both important but mostly orthogonal concerns.

MickLH

@Ali.S My main point on this topic is: When you debug a system, it changes the idea of the system in your head. Think about the joke where you should never write your best code, because then you can't debug it.

Ali.S

@MickLH ok... designing the code first will save you the cost of writing a code, and finding out in middle of it, that your design is wrong... you sit back... design everything completely. make sure everything is going to work as expected, and then start getting into implementation details

user4704

The compilation model can have trickle-down effects on the performance of the output code though.

MickLH

6:49 PM

@Ali.S these are still side effects, or what I call "What?"

user4704

Modern C++ compilers can do, for example "link-time code generation" which is not something older compilers did because the compilation model of C++ rendered it impractically difficult and/or slow.

MickLH

I am trying to explain the motivation, or what I call "Why?"

If you write half of a system in one idea, and half of a system in another idea, you end up with two batches of parts that maybe work together or maybe not.

Ali.S

ok?

MickLH

If you design a system while the idea is constantly changing, you end up with a skewed system.

Ali.S

but who in his right mind does that?

MickLH

6:49 PM

You have made it very clear that you do.

Wardy

@Ali.S virtually every programmer that doesn't do design correctly to start with

Ali.S

even you change your mind during the implementation... you clear up everything and start writing it from scratch

Wardy

bad plan

MickLH

No, see, that's where the discipline comes in.

Ali.S

and that actually happens very rarely

then again I should emphasis "for me"...

MickLH

6:51 PM

Don't go off track from your plan, write the code including the problems you find while coding. Note them into your TODO list, or your feature creep file, depending on urgency.

After you finish implementing your original plan, and have a complete list of problems, then you have a chance of fixing the design.

You have no chance to design a good fix, if you never even have the specifications...

Lasse

That's not very agile is it?

MickLH

I am the guy the "agile" teams call when everything is falling apart and timelines are closing in.

Wardy

there definitely 2 levels of design

there's the 5 year business plan and the 6 month project plan that fits in that bigger plan

the 6 month plan should not change much

the bigger plan might

Ali.S

@MickLH I can not argue with that... it's already proven that you should be one of those guys...

Wardy

all you can do is plan for that in the 6 month plan to cater for the change

MickLH

6:54 PM

I have to really go now, otherwise I'm gonna keep going deeper into all these topics...

Ali.S

the thing is I'm one of those guys too... though I usually go with the fixing/patching route

MickLH

I have a lot to say to you guys, but I really have to go

Wardy

certainly within a sprint / iteration though, nothing should change or the plan wasn't right

Ali.S

@MickLH I wonder if we ever will be working on same project on same team... I'm looking forward to see that's going to happen

MickLH

*Fast Forward...*
Ali: Hey mick, while you were busy not helping us at all, I got most of the problems fixed.
Mick: Hey ali, while you were busy wasting man hours, I got all the problems fixed.

... Interesting part happens now ...

Jon

6:59 PM

user4704

Don't go towards the light.

Jon

this was a WTF were they thinking moment...

user4704

You mean how the godrays appear to be coming from a place in the sky without a sun?

Jon

yeah, and the general mucky look that it does

user4704

heh

Ali.S

7:03 PM

@Jon isn't the sun behind a branch?

behind some clouds?

Jon

no, moving around there was no sun... it was a thunderstorm

user4704

I feel like the muckiness is due to some environmental effect, like the radstorms

user4704

seems like the sun should be disabled, and thus no god-rays, when that happens.

user4704

But I mean you are playing a Bethesda RPG, so.

Lasse

their physics is tied to framerate, or did they patch that already? or are they going to?

Wardy

7:34 PM

anyone know a way to copy the info from the unity console in to a notepad

I need to copy like 10 items

spose I could do them 1 at a time but I was hoping i could select them all

user4704

1) make the console really big

user4704

2) printscreen

user4704

3) upload to website

user4704

4) paste URL into notepad

Wardy

lol

Jon

7:37 PM

highlight text you want to copy

Copy it

paste it into notepad

Wardy

yeh cant in unity though

you can highlight a single item

i need to highlight about 100 items

nvm i'll pull in log4net

been lazy and not done it yet

Icy Defiance

can you shift+click to highlight more?

Wardy

nope

Icy Defiance

weird

Jon

I think you can write code that will dump those errors to a text file

Wardy

7:38 PM

yup ... typical unity if you ask me

@Jon its not errors

its my workload ... debug wrote out all the faulty stuff by checking for a condition

user4704

I find that this sort of thing is often overlooked.

user4704

The middleware we use at work has a similar problem; they went to all this trouble to create a log console.

user4704

But you can't copy more than a single line of output out of it at a time.

Wardy

i know right

retarded or what

the least they could do was offer up some sort of config option to allow you to dump the data or something

im fixing the marching cubes tri table so it works with unity properly

Jon

heh, check this out

Wardy

7:43 PM

ive got some voxel data in the state that it renders all the broken cases now im trying to create me a list of things to go through in notepad

Jon

%localappdata%\Unity\Editor\

@Wardy

That the log you want?

Wardy

spot on

just as i finished

lol

gonna keep that little gem handy though

thx man :)

Jon

np

Wardy

there wasn't as many as I thought actually

im down to just 30 or so now

Wardy

8:05 PM

you get dam good at reading massive arrays of numbers doing geometry work

Wardy

8:47 PM

why all the delays on this stuff

i asked a question, no one was able to answer, so I have a solution now and have answered

now I have to wait a day to actually ark the answer as the answer

retarded

Almo

third new computer in about a month

mostly configured again

Wardy

wish i could afford that

jeez this is a long winded process

Almo

well, I had the punk compters Unity guys get. then i was on unreal 4, so they gave me a MONSTER. It stopped wroking after a few weeks. they gave me another monster. soon after, they moved me back to a unity project, so I have another punk computer

Wardy

wtf .... why cant they just give you a machine and be done with it

is that some way of cheaping out on hardware?

Almo

9:02 PM

Yeah, I don't need 32 GB to work with Unity

Just running the game in editor on Unreal took 18 GB

sevenforums.com/microsoft-office/…

Jon

9:37 PM

added a node to my network

dd-wrt wireless access point upstairs.. the laptop in my bedroom would stutter sometimes lol