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12:06 AM
So
In game currencies + paid currency games vs labor points. Discuss
@William'MindWorX'Mariager
 
i don't fully understand waht the labor points are so I don't have an opinion at the moment
 
It's like really slow filling MP
where the MP is used for all crafting
and gathering
 
ok
 
Free players generate it in game only and at a slow rate with a lower cap
Paid players generate it faster, in game and out of game, and a higher cap
 
so if you don't mind crafting as a slower pace, it doesn't matter if you're a free player
 
12:09 AM
Pretty much
But the game kind of revolves around crafting is the catch
 
 
hey
 
There he is
 
quick question, when the unity license saids that you are allowed to use the free version as long as you dont earn more than 100,000$ a year does that mean the money earn from the game or any money you earn
 
12:18 AM
>Unity Free, which include the free platform add-on products, may not be licensed or used by a commercial entity with annual gross revenues (based on prior fiscal year) in excess of US$100,000, or by an educational, academic, non-profit or government entity with a total annual budget for the entire entity (based on prior fiscal year) in excess of US$100,000.
 
yea i read that part but does it mean when i earn 100,000 from the game or myself for example if i had a job
 
You're not a commercial entity.
 
if you earned that much either way, you wouldn't have to worry about it
 
lol
 
thank you guys just needed that clarification
also do all of you guys basically just use C#
am just wondering
 
12:21 AM
not everyone
 
? a good deal of everyone
 
I use UnityScript
though I'd probably go for C# in my next project
 
I know i dont use C# but i have to learn it to use unity
 
there are some java guys, and some python guys and some c++ guys and some other guys
 
kk
Chris
is your game Tallowmere written in UnityScript?
 
12:23 AM
yep
 
does unityscript have good performance?
or is it slower like javascript
 
I'd recommend C#
 
yea am going to use C#
i want to be able to play my game on my raspberry pi
 
not because of the performance, but because of the language is a much better to use and it has really great IDEs
 
I can't confirm if C# would compile faster, but compile times with UnityScript these days is rather slow, with like 300+ files and 23k lines of code
end result is the same anyhow
 
12:25 AM
am just going to use C# for unity for now since i want to learn C++ instead
 
what editor you use for unityscript anyway?
 
@Lasse I'm still wondering who asked about people's language usages?
 
Sublime Text
 
me i asked
Also lasse thank you for telling me about vim\
Its AWESOME
 
5 mins ago, by UselessQuestionMaster
also do all of you guys basically just use C#
 
12:26 AM
@UselessQuestionMaster I'm a C++ guy for example
though I occasionally use C# too.
 
kk i recall that most time most you guys use C#
 
it's not really the most, only 50%
 
? Oh well that large mayority, i dont use C# i like java the most
HEY who wants to hear a bad joke!
Why do Java developers need Glasses
 
:D
 
because they don't C#
 
12:29 AM
Because they dont C-Sharp! crickets sounds in the background
 
@UselessQuestionMaster I actually chuckled
 
I'm not sure how many times people cracked that joke in this room
 
XD am the only one who does
 
I am guilty of it
 
this is the third time i said it
 
12:29 AM
lol
 
and I too actually chuckle everytime
 
I just smile
I'm gonna hit the bed, laters
 
@SpartanDonut Sorry, got a fare, but I'm back now.
And, it's not about the method. It's what you get for the currency. When you get a clear advantage over other people, then it's a P2W which I think is bad.
But it's also about how you put it.
If they had went with trial and full version, it'd be another story.
But this way they're presenting their users with must-have premium option, which doesn't have the same ring to it.
 
Do you think LoL is P2W?
 
I dunno. All I've heard is that they get skins.
 
12:39 AM
heroes are purchasable aren't they?
 
Oh right, but you could also work your way to get them right?
I think I've played LoL like, one evening once.
Might've been HoN.
 
Any game that has unlocks that you can buy that have different functionality are pay to win
 
MLM
@SpartanDonut I do not think it is pay to win. You start over every game and runes have a really small benefit
 
There are varying levels of P2W but all of them qualify
 
Not if it's on the same terms though. If you generate points by playing, everyone has the same options.
But if you can buy points by paying real money, then it's a P2W in my opinion.
 
12:43 AM
Huh?
 
MLM
The champions are really balanced.
 
I think certain team comps are more op than other team comps
And so does pro gaming... hence ban picks
 
A game can be really balanced and still look broken at the pro level.
 
MLM
I am not at the level where ban picks really matter. Some champions flourish but I would say that is more player skill
 
@ClassicThunder Uhhhh, no it can't
 
12:44 AM
I think what irks me about ArcheAge is just the massive difference. And looking at the patron stuff, it just gets worse.
 
Alternatively a game can be really balanced at the pro level and be bs for casual players.
 
It can appear to be balanced
 
But I think this has been debated enough. :P Seems we all have a different view on what's bad P2W and what's good P2W.
 
all of its fucking shitty
Its like trying to figure out which concentration camp in WWII Germany is most comfortable
 
@AttackingHobo Thinking of balance as binary is silly. As I said it can be very balanced but in the hands of people dedicating their lives to exploiting it look very unbalanced.
 
12:46 AM
of course balance is not binary
If its a multiplayer game and there are usable exploits that aren't patched well its a broken unbalanced game
 
MLM
A good example is Halo 2. Very balanced but the pros can double or even quad shot with the BR to do a massive amount of damage in the same amount of time. Even though it is exploit, anyone with the skill can do it.
 
Do we really think that LoL's imbalance comes from exploiting things lower level players cant?
Unless we're going to argue that the exploit is communication among team members
Because that's not built well into the game =/
 
LoL's imbalance (in my opinion) comes largely from the impossibility of balancing 115 heroes each with 5 abilities + a ton of items
 
I would agree
 
there is an issue they've talked about with some people like Garen. He's designed to be easier to get into
that means he has a "low skill cap"
 
12:49 AM
LoL is more balanced than any other MOBA, including DOTA 2, if you compare champion win rates
so...
 
getting better with him doesn't pay off like it does with someone like LeBlanc
 
champion win rates literally vary between like 45-55%. that's pretty darn good.
 
bad example actually since she got the nerf
still some heroes give more benefit when played with a lot of skill
 
I still see it as either paying money to get the better champions, or take your time earning in game currency to get better champions. P2W
 
those are the high-skill cap champs
but the "better champs" don't stay better champos
they get nerfed
they're trying to get it balanced as best they can
they're not even guilty of new champs are over powered to sell more early
 
12:51 AM
I'm pretty sure RIOT intentionally keeps things a little unbalanced, though. If you change up which champs are good every so often, people will change the champs they play, giving the game variety and making it last longer.
 
@Almo a game is not balanced when there are completely different choices for different players
 
Why have a ban pick mode?
 
the current new champ has a 43% win rate
 
Cause people don't know how to play him yet?
 
but LoL shows that it is at least reasonably balanced in the face of the massive choice you have
 
MLM
12:51 AM
It doesn't take that long to grind to buy ANY champion with ingame currency
 
the current new champ is op in good hands, though. people with a good build win more than 50% right now.
 
yes, but it's not like "buy the new champ and win your game!"
I've seen very few Gnar (new champ) players who are any good
 
MLM
^^^
 
true
 
cough*Jinx*cough
 
12:52 AM
nah Jinx wasn't that op until a few patches after she was released
then she became kind of insane
then got nerfed again and now she's meh
 
she's still fun though :)
 
@Almo Hmmmm. Lets get some of the top pros together. and give them new accounts, and give one team $10 each and the other team nothign. And have them fight
Whos gonna win?
 
hehe
 
the team with $10 will win only because they'll buy the champs they're used to, not because they'll buy champs that are more powerful
 
12:53 AM
the only real benefit the $ palyers get is choice of 2 champs
 
MLM
That benefit drops off quickly once you got some games under your belt
 
they can't buy runes
with the $$
everyone has same access to masteries
and same items
 
you can buy xp/ip boosts, so you can get to level 30 and kitted more quickly, but once you hit ranked games everyone is kitted anyway
 
^
 
I don't think anyone was saying the kits are imbalanced
Every player can literally use the same exact kit
Every player cannot use the same champions
 
12:56 AM
but the champs are all almost equally as strong
 
well, except Urgot maybe
 
1v1 me bro
 
lol Urgot. I think RIOT doesn't even care about him anymore.
just one of those mistakes you try to push under a rug
 
he's #1 on the balance master's list of people who need to be reworked
450 range on an adc... what were they thinking
 
If you can pay REAL money to get more options than people who don't pay money, its pay to win. There are different levels of pay to win. Some p2w games aren't that bad. Some games have huge benefits to paying players. Its a sliding scale. Don't just say that because its so low on the scale that its not there any more.
 
12:57 AM
this is not true hobo
 
p2w means you can buy an advantage
 
you can earn everything with ingame cash, and you don't need much of the total available inventory to compete.
 
@IcyDefiance You can
 
and yes, speed is an advantage, so the xp/ip boosts are p2w
 
If at any point in the game people can pay real money to buy an advantage then its p2w
 
12:58 AM
but you can't buy an advantage
only choice
 
you can, with xp/ip boosts, but not with champs
 
What if your team doesn't own any counter picks to the opposite team?
And all other things created equal
 
@Almo lets play my version of Rock paper Scisors
You can only choose rock
 
least with mobas, you still have a 50% chance to lose ;D
 
lol no one counters below diamond anyway. maaaybe gold.
 
12:59 AM
I'm tired of this argument
I know the game very, very well design-wise, and I am sensitive to pay to win, and LoL just doesn't bother me.
I play a pay to win game and I know what it's like
LoL is not it
 
Its a fucking sliding scale
 
THIS is a pay to win game
there's no comparison
it's like saying chess is pay to win cause you can pay a tutor to give you lessons.
 
Uhhh
Nope
 
if you want to look at it like that, every game is pay to win
except maybe games with pure luck outcomes
 
This is like me trying to argue that a pan is hot, and you countering that its not hot, because the sun is hotter
 
1:01 AM
Almo that's the most massive straw man argument I've seen in a while.
 
Every player in chess has the same choices
 
but I could pay to get more skill
pay to win
the argument breaks down when you say "sliding scale"
 
Your own skill is not part of the game
 
If anyone was arguing that LoL was pay for a tutor making it pay to win you would have a point but no one said that
@Almo is it possible to pick a bad champion in LoL?
 
maybe a few
 
1:02 AM
done
 
only Urgot that I know of
 
but for the most part they're playable
 
but everyone knows Urgot is shit after their first 20 levels
 
hahaha
it's also always in flux because they patch
it's not like the expensive heroes are somehow better
 
It's just having more heros makes you better
Your kit is more versatile
 
1:04 AM
warwick is one of the super cheap heroes
and he currently has 54% win rate
that's almost as high as OP champs go
 
Price of the hero doesn't matter
 
and we know they'll fix it
 
The fact that you can buy champions is the point
 
there are always enough free champions to avoid getting countered in normals
and by the time you get to ranked games you can buy enough champs with IP to have diversity anyway
 
yeah you get to pick from 10 free ones each week, and it rotates
 
1:05 AM
10 free champions in 5 distinct roles isn't very many
 
nah, that's exactly what I recommend everyone owns before hitting ranked
2 champs for every role that you're good at
 
/hugs dota
 
Its so easy to make scenarios that putting money into the game results in bigger win rates
 
dota is shit. unbalanced and no progression. >:(
also I died more because of bad controls than because of mistakes I made
 
@IcyDefiance And that has been one of my big arguments that drove me to buy champions
 
1:06 AM
the controls ARE bad
 
@SpartanDonut with IP?
 
progression is getting free cosmetic stuff
and ranked modes now too
I like it
*shrug*
 
I don't think you're even allowed to play ranked games until you own so many champions. what is it, 15?
 
Have two players start on the same date. They both like the same character, and at the end of the week. One of them buys the character for money, the other doesn't have money and so chooses a new free character
 
we should play again
16
 
1:06 AM
16, gotta be a power of 2, lol
 
@IcyDefiance No with LoL. This feeling is against how LoL handles their model and not about them being pay 2 win... but there simply isn't enough champion variety in the free pool that you can pick someone you are good with all the time
 
need enough for 6 bans plus 9 people choosing leaving you 1
 
I found the game terribly inaccessible from that standpoint
 
@SpartanDonut you bought champs with LoL? O_o
 
when you are restricted to the free pool, it's likely you're not good with anyone
 
1:07 AM
So I'm like fuck it... buying champs where I like the play style
 
man if you owned the game you should've just given yourself all the champs
 
I bought many when on sale if i liked them
picking up the remainder with IP
 
@Almo I agree. This is about accessibility... nothing about being pay 2 win or anything
I was like... I'LL PICK THIS GUY! and my team was like OMG WTF
 
heheh
 
I've probably bought 10 champs with RP. all the rest I bought with IP and I own all but 6 champs now.
 
1:08 AM
only paid full price ofr one
Ziggs!!!
 
and I have 4 rune pages I filled entirely with IP
 
Or they'd tell me who to pick and I say ok! and its someone ridiculously hard to play or just vastly different than what I like to play
 
he's just too much fun
 
I've bought so many champs with RP honestly
 
1:09 AM
yeah i bought all my rune pages (14) with IP
 
and the extra rune page I bought with IP too
 
i wait for the 2-for-1 sales
 
lol 14. I should work on that too... XD
 
you two want to play again?
 
I'm better with certain kinds of champions and that's all there is too it. Free pool doesn't do it for me
 
1:09 AM
was fun
 
sure
 
free pool was how I tried them out before buying
 
why not
@Almo yes... but when there wasn't a guy in the free pool I liked I played the two dudes I bought over and over and over and over and over
 
free pool convinced me not to buy more champs than it convinced me to buy
 
hehehe
 
1:10 AM
I'd try a champ that looked cool and realize I'm shit with that playstyle, so I'd pass it up
 
ok team builder again
I tried Zed... o_0
I SUCK with him amazingly
 
I love Zed :D
but I never get a good chance to use him
you can't use an AD mid unless top is AP
 
I honestly disliked LoL more when I was waiting on IP for champions than when I just paid for champions I liked outright with RP
 
yeah a pal of mine only seems to play to get his 150 IP for first win of the day just so he can buy heroes... to just play to get his first win of the day
I don't quite get it
 
So the point I was trying to make... to bring this all back around
 
1:15 AM
@Almo a lot of people play EVE the same way. it's just making progression in case you ever want to go back.
perfectly justifiable, since I've only quit LoL 4 times so far
 
heheh
but he doesn't seem to have fun really
just grinding for the sake of it
good player though
 
btw does he realize you can get first win from bot games?
took me a while to figure that out
 
LoL and ArcheAge are kind of similar (still maybe ArcheAge is worse, time will tell when it actually goes live). Labor Points are like IP and the monthly sub is like RP except instead of a completely separate currency you just get more of the same currency. You can play the same game with both. It seems to be just a different pacing of the same game
 
but you can just take Yi, power through a few turrets, end it in 10 minutes
 
Oh that reminds me... when I started LoL they didn't have bot games. That probably would have made my "new player experience" a lot better
I could fail against bots with champs I've never used without people getting upset
 
1:17 AM
:D
 
he he he I have 6.9k rep
 
congra... I see what you did there...
 
1:40 AM
:)
 
1:51 AM
Guess how many samples
 
closer to mage icon
not hta i play mage a lot
i better eat something fer dinner i think
@SpartanDonut thanks for playing. icy and i will play again in maybne 20 min
or 15
depends on food time
 
Going to play one with my brother. If the stars align the 4 of us can play again later
 
I have another 3 hours. maybe 4 if we're winning everything. and I'll probably just code while I'm waiting, so I can probably wait for you to finish your game.
 
ok cool
 
Icy you were my hero that game
Early game would have been worse than it was without you
 
2:00 AM
lol I have an agenda against all teemo players. I will wreck them wherever I see them. >:D
I have an agenda against tryn players too, but only tryn tops who try to get themselves countered
sooo...does anyone know how to make the garbage collector notify me either immediately before/after it collected a specific object?
WeakReference would work, but I'd have to poll every so often to see if it's collected, and that would be annoying
in C# I mean
 
I would maybe investigate what comes with IDisposable
or something
 
yeah, what I want is basically an automatic version of IDisposable, so when a Mesh goes out of context I can delete it from the gpu without the user of my library doing anything. kind of like XNA does it.
 
2:21 AM
maybe I could just use the destructor... it's not like it'll be keeping any files locked. it'll just use vram. combine that with GC.AddMemoryPressure and I bet it'll work well.
Josh will probably yell at me for it though XD
 
 
1 hour later…
3:43 AM
Ludum Dare is happening right now. The theme is: Connected Worlds
 
Saving my game dev strength for the anniversary jam.
 
I honestly didn't think that that was the best theme on the list.
I may try something with Three.js.
 
@SpartanDonut You sound so freakin tasty
 
@SpartanDonut You ever hear this song?
 
Just eat you alive
 
3:45 AM
I'm trying to learn it now, it's hard :(
Fun though.
I like the challenge of fingerpicking.
 
@hasherr Why?
 
Because it's different than regular picking and makes me better at guitar.
Plus you can go really fast if you know what you're doing.
 
Oh... I have an electric rock guitar.
 
I need to step my fingerpicking game up
 
What kind is yours?
 
3:47 AM
@Noctrine It is hard stuff, I'm really enjoying this.
 
I dream of one day being able to rock at classical guitar
 
I'm incredibly bad at finger picking
Pretty much a chords only guy
Cept Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd
 
Terrible at chords, or at least barre chords
 
The secret of barre chords is get off the medium strings
 
I like a mix of the two
I get lazy with my chords though
Often only hold the most signifigant strings until I get the sound I want and then move on.
 
3:51 AM
Oh that reminds me
Had any time to do the video stuff #er?
 
Nah, we've been talking about some ideas though.
We have no resources besides cameras and our houses. And my buddy's girlfriend to drive us around if we needed but otherwise we have nothing.
 
That's what makes the most creative student films :p
If you've been writing alot, and think it's good - you should check out amazon studios.
I think I'm going to start submitting a few things to them every so often, see what sticks.
 
I would never use this.
At least for certain things.
My main story, never in a million years.
 
Oh no, never that.
But I'm sure you come up with all kinds of ideas for stuff you'll never have time to properly develop.
 
Hm. Honestly we kind of view it as a fantasy, getting our stories made into films.
 
3:57 AM
I feel like a bit of experience pitching only adds to that fantasy
It's at least worth checking out though, I wouldn't bother with the public submissions - the private submissions actually have better terms.
 
Well, it's like this: I've been working on this idea, this concept which started as the most vague idea ever and slowly morphed it's way into the most beautiful narrative that I could conceive.
 
I've been working on it for over 3 years, working out every single little kink in the story, plot twist, character development, static vs. dynamic characters, etc
It's my baby
And it sucks that I will never ever see it outside of my own head. And nobody else will get to see it like I do.
 
@AttackingHobo T he bendy one is back
Crap, now I wanna play Kerbal.
 

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