knowing things

I mean, what of my history do you know? Am I a convert? Am I a revert? Am I always-Catholic? How you can you make any rational statement about me without knowing anything about me?

@BenjaminGruenbaum Ah, I figured out how I would answer your question, I think it because I know it. It was just an extra step that threw me off. The rest follows in what I said to @RyanKinal about how I know

So please don't attribute something you don't know to me

@KyleKanos ok I take that back... so why do you believe then?

@AwalGarg There are uneducated believers as there are uneducated non-believers

5:07 PM

@KyleKanos agreed. My mistake.

@m59 I'm sorry, which question in particular?

@RyanKinal that's fine! Scientists throughout history were often religious! It's amazing to me how you guys say there is no absolute truth and can't give a non-circular reason to use logic, nor make a valid distinction between ought and ought not, nor have any certainty that the future will be like the past, but then think Christians don't care about knowledge and understanding.

@AwalGarg I believe in God because no rational person could possibly look at the universe and decide, "Yep this was a gigantic fluke that our universe turned out this way"

@RyanKinal the question that Benji asked "why do I think I know logic"

@m59 yeah they were also alchemists... doesn't mean alchemy is all right.

5:09 PM

Alchemy is forbidden by The Bible (well, the term Alchemy wasn't around then, but the principle of it)

So, your reasoning for why you think you know logic is "because I know logic". And you know logic because it was revealed by God. And you know God because... ?

You skipped over some

I'm saying I know logic and there's only 2 ways to know logic

@KyleKanos no rational person could possibly look at the universe and decide, "Yep this was a gigantic superficial bieng and made our universe"

I don't qualify for one, so it must be the other.

@RyanKinal note, we're all reasoning backwards, and that's necessary here

But that's a premise with which I don't agree.

5:10 PM

@AwalGarg no, but you could look at the universe and decide an all powerful being could :P

I don't believe there are only two ways to know something.

What's the alternative?

@AwalGarg Surely no superficial being could, but an all-powerful being could.

@KyleKanos :high fives:

Observation. Which is what "having it revealed to you" is anyway.

5:11 PM

As much as you'll detest the next words, look at how fine-tuned the universe is.

@RyanKinal on what grounds is observation reliable?

On what grounds is revelation reliable?

> Heh you see this universe? This was made by some person which I am imagining by myself! He was ALL-powerful! He made everything! He is great! YADA YADA

@RyanKinal the grounds I gave - A being which is eternal in all his attributes - knowledge, logic, power specifically - cannot be mistaken and has full authority to cause other things to not be mistaken.

@AwalGarg I'm not imagining anything, haha. There is literally no way for me to have the capability to understand God because it's impossible for us to as mortals

5:12 PM

@KyleKanos where is that being now?

@AwalGarg If God had never come down to earth and talked with humanity, this might make sense. However, God came down on numerous occasions

@AwalGarg Sitting in the Tabernacle of every Catholic church on earth.

@m59 Right, but revelation requires two beings - the revealer (perfect) and the revealee (imperfect)

@KyleKanos we differ there :P

What if your sense of revelation is incorrect?

@KyleKanos so if I go and blast all your churches, burn them to ashes, your god will be harmed?

@KyleKanos like when?

5:14 PM

@AwalGarg No, because God is not only on earth.

In some sense, revelation is just observation

@KyleKanos this makes absolutely no sense. How many gods do you have?

@AwalGarg There's this book that was compiled around 400 AD by the Catholic Church. It's called The Bible. In it contains the examples I would cite.

@AwalGarg One.

@AwalGarg one

But He is in Three Divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

5:15 PM

one god at so many places right? I know now you would say he is all powerful... so let's clear that. how is he all powerful, define that power please.

I could describe my observation in terms of revelation: The universe (perfect) has revealed to me (imperfect) knowledge.

@KyleKanos so that bible is the only source of these examples, right?

@RyanKinal I am trying my best to explain that - God has all power. He can do all things which are possible. Since I know logic (undeniably so), there must be a being that can't be mistaken and has sufficient power to cause other being to know things without being mistaken.

@AwalGarg You can read here: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p3.htm

@AwalGarg capable of doing anything that doesn't go against His own self, perhaps. Might not be a perfect definition, would have to think more

5:17 PM

dangit I suck at typing.

@AwalGarg no, countless people have vouched for it

@AwalGarg No, there are apparitions as well

@KyleKanos huh? That must be nice... tell me more about that please.

Visions of Jesus and Mary

There's a whole wikipedia article on it:

Since the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ on Calvary, a number of people have claimed to have had visions of Christ and personal conversations with him. Some people make similar claims regarding his mother Mary. Discussions about the authenticity of these visions have often invited controversy. The Catholic Church endorses a fraction of these claims, and various visionaries it accepts have achieved beatification, or even sainthood. The very first reported visions of Christ, and personal conversations with him, after his resurrection and prior to his ascension are found in the New Testament. One of...

@m59 But the understanding of God's word is inconsistent across different people. Either people are mistaken about any number of horrors carried out in the name of God, or God is imperfect.

5:20 PM

> a number of people have claimed to have had visions

such a proof I must say

@AwalGarg know that Catholics and protestants having varying beliefs when it comes to this type of thing

@RyanKinal i have said we are not mistaken that there is logic, morality, and induction. We even misuse those a lot. I am only arguing that we all know them, and undeniably so. We still suck at using them.

@AwalGarg What proof do you want?

@KyleKanos I expect you to already know that human mind can create such illusions easily!

A vision for yourself?

5:20 PM

@KyleKanos any reliable material proof

From the Wikipedia article I link to, Some visions of Jesus have simply been classified as hallucinations by the Church

The Church there being the Catholic Church

@AwalGarg I agree with you. I factor in human experience lightly in to what I call truth, because experience is mistakable. the problem is that you based your use of logic on experience, so you're victim of your own reasoning.

@AwalGarg I'd argue the complexity of the universe if reliable material proof

just because people claim to have seen UFOs doesn't make everyone believe in them.

And before it comes, I am not saying that "I know logic" because of an experience of revelation. I am saying I know it because God revealed it and that's all. As in "maybe God forced it on us". I don't know. I just know He made us know it.

5:22 PM

@AwalGarg Yes, and when investigations into the factual content of the claim return unfounded, everyone can agree it was improper. But what happens if the investigation finds factual content?

@m59 Explain the difference between knowing that consistent logic exists and using logic.

@RyanKinal the purple is bluray pony skittles winter and ice skating above clouds Harry Potter

@RyanKinal silly example, but you know how to write. You still make mistakes writing sometimes though

@KyleKanos sure, show me some reliable examples please.

@AwalGarg Again, see the Wikipedia article

5:24 PM

@ZachSaucier Good example.

@KyleKanos tl;dr :P ...a keyword I can search for on that page since I guess you must have it memorized it.

Here's one:

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish: Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe), also known as the Virgin of Guadalupe (Spanish: Virgen de Guadalupe), is a title of the Virgin Mary associated with a celebrated pictorial image housed in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in México City. Official Catholic accounts state that on the morning of December 9, 1531, Juan Diego saw an apparition of a young girl at the Hill of Tepeyac, near Mexico City. Speaking to him in Nahuatl, the girl asked that a church be built at that site in her honor; from her words, Juan Diego recognized the girl as the Virgin Mary. Diego told...

The image that you see there is on a cloak called a tilma

@RyanKinal The reason I started this conversation with Benji is because his worldview lead him to what I would call insanity. That pedophiles just are the way they are, just like everyone, and it's unfortunate that they would be punished. The insanity is in the last part.

It was not painted on to it, tests have shown that

@AwalGarg I don't agree with Kyle on this

5:26 PM

@m59 Yeah, I agree with the first part... they're just the way they are. But they should not be part of society.

Although, that's less about logic than it is about morality.

@RyanKinal and now we'd get into that.

Yep

@RyanKinal should elderly people be disposed of?

@KyleKanos a sane person would actually doubt the authenticity of this. And we surely know that those tests could never be certain.

Nope

5:27 PM

Why?

Morality is a tough topic. Because it has changed so much over the course of human history.

Should it change?

It does, whether it should or not.

@ZachSaucier @m59 would you like to be disposed off when you get old? (yes or no only please)

@AwalGarg So you don't believe in science then?

5:28 PM

Nope.

@RyanKinal I'd say morality's perception has changed according to popular belief, but I'd argue that true morality is the same throughout

But in my opinion, yes. Morality should change. It should evolve with the understanding of the society.

@KyleKanos I definitely do. But I don't know about the authenticity of those tests and the environment in which they were conducted.

Why should anyone care about what you have to say?

@ZachSaucier Ooh, good one

5:29 PM

@m59 why?

Because life belongs to God, and he is to decide when it is given or taken.

@m59 Me personally? No reason in particular. But I think I have some good ideas.

@RyanKinal is it right for people to make moral claims for no reason or based on good ideas? and what qualifies a good idea?

@AwalGarg It's published works: Callahan, Philip: "The Tilma Under Infra-Red Radiation", CARA Studies in Popular Devotion, Vol. II, Guadalupan Studies, No. III (March 1981, 45pp.), Washington, D.C

@m59 what has that anything to do with your "choice"?

5:30 PM

"For no reason" is not valid at all.

and what qualifies reason? (still stuck on that, sorry)

why do things need reasons?

Short answer: Biology. Survival. The good of the species.

@AwalGarg I don't understand your question

@AwalGarg So do you require the authenticity for every scientific experiment? Is published works enough? Or do you have to do the experiment yourself?

Is experimentation the only way?

@RyanKinal LOTS of grey area (according to that definition)

5:31 PM

@RyanKinal why does biology matter, why should we survive rather than perish, what is good for the species and why should we do what is good for them rather than the opposite?

@ZachSaucier Yep. And I'm okay with that, because I'm of the opinion that morality is subjective.

that would be awful IMO

@m59 I asked you would you like to be disposed of? You said 'no'. I asked why? And you said because god owns life... now I ask you, what does god have anything to do with your choice between bieng disposed off or not?

@m59 Because life is better than death.

@m59 Imagine I am god and I ask you, "Would you like to be disposed of?" You said no. Now me (god) is asking you, "Why?". Answer pls..?

5:33 PM

@ZachSaucier But it's true - things that were moral 1000 years ago are not moral today. At some level, there may be objective morality, but on a societal scale, there is certainly not.

@AwalGarg he is the moral standard by which we're all called to live. What He says is the very definition of right and anything else is wrong.

@RyanKinal why is life better than death?

Without life, there is no me. There is no you. And I find me (and you, I GUESS) enjoyable.

@RyanKinal still what I said earlier - there is absolute, doesn't mean all societies follow it perfectly

Why does it matter what's enjoyable?

@KyleKanos I believe in theory, but it needs experimentation as a support.

5:34 PM

@ZachSaucier Fair enough

@RyanKinal haha, thank you :)

Why do you determine to enjoy things rather than seek to suffer?

@m59 You fail to answer me m59. I repeat. God is himself asking you why would you not like to be disposed... answer him please.

@m59 Pleasure is better than the lack thereof?

According to what?

@AwalGarg I would repeat to God what He said about the subject and wonder why He felt the need to ask.

5:35 PM

@AwalGarg Great! So do Catholics!

@AwalGarg if it's his will that it should be so I would not argue otherwise

@m59 According to biology. Things that are pleasurable are usually beneficial to my survival.

@RyanKinal well that was a circle ;D

;-)

Is it right that someone look to biology for answers?

5:36 PM

It seems like a good starting point

how do you know that we shouldn't do the opposite of what biology suggests?

Everything the Catholic Church promulgates as Truth is founded in Logic (cf. Aquinas' Summa Theologica). Many things are found to be True via experimentation/investigation!

Good to whom?

What's good?

To me. To millions of biologists.

s/good/useful/

Ah, now there's the truth

To you.

This is right and wrong because I say so.

It was true 6000 years ago that Cain did evil by slaying his brother Abel. Is was wrong because God said so.

5:37 PM

@m59 You can't answer straightway, can you? I would repeat in more simple words. God is asking you why you took the choice between not bieng disposed and bieng disposed as the former? Answer it please?

It's wrong today if you kill someone because God said so.

@AwalGarg you're being a douche now.

It's wrong to kill somebody because it ends the life of a human being.

..

I answered. God is the standard of right and wrong. I do what He says.

And as I said before, life is better than death.

(Unless you believe in an afterlife, I suppose)

5:38 PM

@RyanKinal and God said it's wrong and God said that humans have value and that life is better than death.

@m59 he is giving you a choice, asking you the reason of your choice, can you give a reason? Do you have a reason?

Where do you get the authority to determine this for yourself!

@AwalGarg: Anyways, I've got to head out and get back to work.

@AwalGarg God doesn't give such choices.

brb, Skype call

5:39 PM

@AwalGarg you seem to keep missing this: without God, there are no reasons for anything.

@KyleKanos o/ bye

@KyleKanos Thank you for some of the most interesting arguments.

According to @RyanKinal, when he dies, all bets are off and everyone can just murder and oppress everyone, since Ryan is the very source of moral truth. (Sorry to be harsh, but I feel I do the best by you to point to the actual truth).

@m59 Incorrect. When I die, the world ceases to exist ;-)

@m59 ok then... I have no choice but to deny to (any need of) his existence.

5:41 PM

I need to work, since there's a real tangible world with real tangible moral standards that I know of.

Your god is all-powerful but can't give choices, right? So much logic you talk dude!

lol, so much strawman you talk, dude.

I said he "doesn't".

@AwalGarg I love you man, but please learn to be respectful.

Making strawman arguments in this excess is not an accident, its you being manipulative and haughty.

@m59 Hm? I respect you very much (partly because of your confidence)... did I say something bad? Please point that out, would take care of that. And apologies.

A strawman argument is where you fail to represent my argument correctly - representing a weaker argument, then drawing a conclusion based on your perversion of what I said.

Then why does he not give such choices?

5:44 PM

It's especially bad that you do this with (as I perceieve) tone of arrogance. (maybe that's just the probem of the internet)

He gives choices. Again, I said "such choices" as the one you're referring to.

he does not make humans in charge of moral standards.

A choice He does give us, is whether to follow Him or reject Him.

@AwalGarg and don't misunderstand - I can love or I can hate, I have those choices, but which one is "good", that does not change based on anything to do with me.

I am sorry but that gives me the impression that that being is a dictator... also, I have my decision of moral standards. Your god has absolutely no say in that, I completely deny to his wishes, I dare him do anything.

What is "good" is defined by God's very existence, and what He says is just a revelation of His perfect character.

@AwalGarg yes, God is a dictator.

He dictates that you should do good to others.

@m59 Also incorrect because I also said there is the basis of the rest of the humanity

he's a good dictator though, a perfect one

@m59 then he has no moral sense. He is himself a fool and has no right to dictate anyone.

5:47 PM

@RyanKinal ah, but I would hope you'd understand, who determined that what the rest of humanity is of any count? (you did)

@AwalGarg wow.

@AwalGarg mortal, imperfect being is now judging the ultimate being and his creator

makes no sense

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I did for the purposes of this discussion, but humanity as a whole seems to think it's pretty important.

@AwalGarg definitely not worth talking with you at this point

@RyanKinal how do you determine that such a thing matters at all?

@RyanKinal nazis thought that murdering innocent people by the droves was great.

5:49 PM

Again, I have nothing against his existence... just that this person does not deserve any respect what so ever you guys give him.

If they killed everyone that disagreed.....

And he has no power and no control over me or anyone or anything in this universe.

@AwalGarg yours is not a problem of intellect. You hate God, who loves you and made you, even knowing that you would hate him. He wants you to have His gift of life.

@m59 Yep. And now we know that's wrong. The evolution of (at least the perception of) morality.

@AwalGarg The God that you hate - this is what he says: "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

@AwalGarg it disgusts me that you would say such a terrible thing about One who loves so much.

5:50 PM

@m59 I would agree to this. Because I have seen my family and people like you waste time and energy over him for no reason.

Our nation has murdered 50,000,000 babies in the womb of their mother, where they should be safe and nurtured, and you say there is no reason, and that people don't need God.

@AwalGarg if you're unwilling to discuss about things anymore and continue to assert your beliefs there is no reason for us to continue

This world is evil....abominable and utterly lost.

@m59 I disagree. There is so much good in this world.

I asked a simple question, the answer to which you gave me was utterly pathetic.

5:53 PM

There is charity, love, kindness, and beauty.

@RyanKinal I'd argue all done out of selfish intentions without God in us

@m59 a vague sentence, that is.

brb, changing classes

50,000,000 babies.

@ZachSaucier And here is the difference between optimism and pessimism.

@m59 And how many were saved by doctors? How many lived?

How many of these "murders" saved the life of the mother?

5:56 PM

I'm not pessimistic. I believe the world will get better and better. I believe there is hope for us lost, blind, enslaved, insane murderers, and that hope is Jesus.

That's why I'm here talking right now.

It's the grace of God, restraining our evil, that the world has the goodness that it has.

I want people to have freedom from the sin that enslaves them.

I want people to learn what it means to really love and sacrifice.

And I think that people are waking up to the goodness that is inherent in them. I think that people, on their own, without a supernatural god, can be good and can love one another.

By the grace of the supernatural God. What is in us inherently is evil.

I want people to have freedom from wasting time on worshiping a need less bieng called god.

Jesus can change that.

@AwalGarg and this why God says "you're a child of wrath".

I also want to get my work done so I can keep my job, so I must go. Thanks for the discussion bros.

See, that's a part of Christianity that I can't get behind. I can't accept that each of us is born with original sin.

5:59 PM

I don't care what your god says, he is absolutely nothing for me.

@m59 cya later

> All I can say is this: it looks as if we are all we have. Given what we know about ourselves, and each other, this is an extraordinarily unappetizing prospect; looking around the world, it appears that if all men are brothers, the ruling model is Cain and Abel. Neither reason, nor love, nor even terror, seems to have worked to make us “good,” and worse than that, there is no reason why any thing should. Only if ethics were something unspeakable by us could law be unnatural, and therefore unchallengeable. As things stand now, everything is up for grabs. Nevertheless:

@RyanKinal we differ there. We don't have to teach children to be bad, they do it innately

I don't think that's true

But hey. I could be wrong ;-)

Ugh... it's 2:00 pm, and I haven't had lunch yet.

THANKS OBAMA

Seriously, though, this has been an interesting discussion. I've learned about me, and you, and have either increased or better understood the collective knowledge of humanity.

!!afk lunch

@RyanKinal \o/

→ 3 messages moved to Bin

6:21 PM

Not sure if anybody is still paying attention, but I think I've changed my mind. People are not inherently good.

But they're not inherently evil either. I don't think they're inherently anything, except people.

Also, my soup tastes vaguely like spaghetti-o's.

6:46 PM

@RyanKinal what type of soup?

Red pepper and tomato

I think there was a lot of sugar in it

@RyanKinal how can they be neither?

I suppose a better question is what standards is it based off of?

goes back to what we were talking about directly though

Well, I'm pretty sure people are shaped by their experiences.

Some kids hit other kids, some don't.

sure

It just seems to me that the influence of environment is so important that babies are most likely kind of a blank slate.

I haven't really thought it through yet.

6:49 PM

but those that don't hit still connive in some way

They push limits, sure.

But I don't think that's "evil" - it's learning.

absolutely. But doing wrong is doing wrong

Alright. That's interesting.

I'll find a way around this one ;-)

Ah. So, it's wrong from the parent's perspective - from society's perspective - but the child doesn't know that yet. To the child, it's just something they can do.

The child has to experiment with right as well as wrong in order to learn the difference.

@RyanKinal goes back to relative/absolute morality and truth

Yeah, it does

6:55 PM

@RyanKinal I'd argue that if a group of children were left solely to themselves they would create a moral systems very similar to our own

it's not just societal, I think it's something more innate in addition to societal

I'd argue that a group of children left solely to themselves would have trouble surviving.

hah, true

hence why we don't do it :P

But yeah, I agree that there is something innate - genetics. Biology.

The recognition of the "tribe" is something that has been in humanity for a long long time.

Of course, this includes good things as well as bad things... competition for resources can be a bad thing, while protecting those in the tribe can be good.

In the end, they're just "instinct", which can't really be ascribed to good or evil outside the constraints of a society.

we differ in our beliefs :)

True!

Another thing I love about humanity :-D

7:04 PM

I love it so long as people's beliefs are not wrong :P

for something as eternally significant and meaningful, I don't want anybody to get this wrong

I want you to see the beauty of God and what He offers

Yeah, I get that.

I just have trouble believing in God as anything but a metaphor.

Historically, the concept of God is inconsistent at best

we are a stubborn and stupid people

Haha

we hate to admit someone is better than us

better than we ever could be or hope to be

I admit that I have trouble with that. I know that there are people who are better than me at SO. MANY. THINGS.

But I still don't think it makes much sense.

7:09 PM

what doesn't make much sense?

The consistency of belief over the millennia (spiritualism, polytheism, monotheisum, etc.) What is and isn't considered "God's word". The immoral behavior of people who call themselves believers.

simply put, we're not perfect, we cannot be

Here's what we believe in short:

Sure. But the fact that we seem to make up whatever god or gods are necessary at the time is odd to me.

1. God created the world. Everything was good, perfect, the way it was meant to be

2. We, as humans (specifically Adam), chose to turn against God out of greed/pride/selfishness/not trusting in God's word. We sinned

1 sin is enough to eternally condemn us because of who it is against. If you slap me in the face nothing happens, I might slap you back. If you tackle the president you'll be heavily fined/imprisoned/etc. Against an eternal, perfect, and all powerful God this punishment is eternal

As such, we're unable to fill the void between us and God that was created by our sin

Do let me know exactly when you're done with your list. I'm waiting to respond until you're done.

7:16 PM

3. God, out of His love and goodness, decided to send Jesus who lived a perfect life. Since He didn't sin, He didn't deserve death. But, again out of His love and goodness, He chose to give up His life in order to save us, to give us a way back to God. He took our sins and transgressions and put it on Himself. In return He gave us His own righteousness

4. (last one) The only thing we have to do is accept this is to put our trust in Him, to believe that what He says is true. Christ is the only way to God

fin.

brb, heading home

k

I appreciate the explanation, but it really just sounds like every other creation myth and "be good or the gods will punish you" story out there. I don't see what makes it any more true than Greek, Roman, or Seneca mythology.

I don't think I can accept it just because it might be bad if I don't. I understand that faith is part of the whole thing - that you just have to accept it without any observable reason - but I don't think I can do that.

I'll be over here being a good person regardless of whether I go to heaven or go to hell when I die.

7:34 PM

@RyanKinal I pray that you wouldn't accept it out of avoiding the bad - that's not true faith :)

Faith is seeing how good God is and how broken we are. It is relying on someone outside of our self to make us truly good

It is recognizing that whatever we do outside of Him is ultimately for our self

But I don't think we're broken. And I don't think what we do is ultimately for our selves. I think we can be benevolent toward other people without selfishness.

@RyanKinal the difference between Christianity and every other religion is that in Christianity it is not "be good or God will punish you" it is "you are broken, God is good, praise Him for it, in doing so He will make you be more like Him - good"

But isn't that the same thing? "Be good or you will be broken forever"

not at all! It makes a world of difference

It's not up to us to be good, we innately cannot be

Ooh, see, that I have a real issue with.

I see good every day. And it's up to us to make that choice.

We have the power to do so.

7:40 PM

alright, I think I might not have conveyed my reason very clearly, sorry

God does everything for His good and the good of His people

He did not create sin (a being that is perfectly good cannot create something evil - it's against its nature), but He let sin into the world in order to show His glory more

It's impossible for us to understand fully (which is okay because if we could understand all of God and His decisions with our mortal minds then He is no God) why He did this, but to me it's something like this:

We can generally force people to do things we want them to do, i.e. blackmailing, threatening, etc. (not all the time, go with me here), but if we did so and made them say that we're awesome there wouldn't be much meaning behind it. We're forcing them to do so

however, if people on their own accord walk up to us and say, "Hey, you're really awesome because of _____", then there is a whole lot more meaning behind it

it's like having an army of robots praise you as opposed to a nation of people - one is a lot more meaningful

As such, even bad things on this earth can be for God's glory and the good of His people

they can point by contrast, if nothing else, to what good truly is and how God is good

I guess I just don't see it.

And I'm sorry that you'll have to be okay with that fact. I know it's against what you believe.

A person can do "good" things outside of knowing God, but ultimately we do them out of some selfish motive, however subconscious it may be

I see things that some people might term god, but I don't think they're supernatural. I think they're natural.

@RyanKinal I'm sorry, but I'll never be "okay" with you not believing :) I'll respect your decision and if you ask me to I'll stop talking about what I believe to you, but I'll never be "okay" with it

I care about you too much to do that

I'm glad there are people like you out there.

And I'm sorry you'll never "save" me.

7:51 PM

No human ever can save us! What did I just tell you?!? :D

lol

I'll pray for you and keep you in mind. If you ever want to talk about anything let me know, doesn't have to be about religion or anything

Thanks man. And the same to you.

I mean... without the praying ;-)

'course ;)

just FYI, if I could find one truly contradictory thing, one thing that doesn't fit in Christianity, I would immediately renounce it. I have full confidence that no one will find something like that, but it's still true

Fair enough

7:56 PM

Thanks for the good talk, I always enjoy talking with reasonable people