The Frying Pan

8:58 AM

marco!

@Jolenealaska MA-HARCO

1:10 PM

@ElendilTheTall hi!

3:36 PM

@rumtscho you say 'hi' like it wasn't 4 hours later :D

chat is asynchronous by design

I know, I was pulling your leg

Friday nearly over, woohoo!

a crazy weekend of hedonism and debauchery ahead for you no doubt?

congrats. do you have plans for the weekend?

as it happens, it will be a weekend of hedonism for me, yes

I worked through last weekend due to a deadline

and was stressed during the week

not really - the usual errantry for me

ooo, hedonistic rumi

so this weekend, I'm going to take it easy.

3:38 PM

I can only imagine what that entails

It's less interesting than some may think. I don't plan much debauchery.

Ah, I will probably learn the eskimo roll!

I finally understood how it goes last Saturday

kayaking?

but I still miss a bit of power or coordination, I don't know which. I manage it if somebody gives me a slight push on the shoulder, else I fall back in.

Yes, falling into the water and coming back up.

else I'll probably read a lot.

3:53 PM

I went kayaking once

once was enough

I was going to take some photos this weekend, but the weather looks like it will foil my plans

@ElendilTheTall no fun exercises by making the weather conditions part of the challenge?

I've heard of people who, if it's scorching sunrays outside, go photograph shadow silhouettes instead of things and people. There's probably a similar thing to be done for English winter weather.

@rumtscho well, I'd consider that, but it's just going to be cloudy

the kind of cloud that makes you think you are trapped inside a giant tupperware tub

no shadows, no contrast

it's good for portraits, but I have no one willing to model for me

So, you need to find the kind of motif which looks good without shadows and contrast?

portraits

only? I admit I don't know that much photography to be aware what works best in this type of light. Maybe you could do animals, or dolls, if you don't have a human?

Or take out the baby? Or do macro work indoors?

4:01 PM

Why would I want a photograph of a doll? :)

I don't know, people do it.

And as for macro, I have long since past the stage where I want to to sit and take close ups of flowers

We do need more photos of the baby - it will be easier now because he can hold his head up

grr

4:04 PM

That is... weird

I like it.

facebook.com/dollpics

yeah.. I'm not clicking that :)

I have learned an excellent technique for producing stunning, noise-free star images, but the night I learned it, it clouded over and hasn't been clear since

it is quite involved but the results are amazing

I'm sure the clouds will leave Britain one day

and the longer you wait, the sweeter the experience when it actually comes

just in time for the longest day...

speaking of time, I have to finally go out shopping, or I won't be able to have dinner

there's no food here, I had to fold hazelnut flour into whipped cream and mix in tapioca pearls for lunch

4:11 PM

that sounds ... weird

but needs must

it looks weird, but it tastes OK. I also put in honey.

I have been being good for the last two weeks - I've lost 8kg

It's a bit like semolina pudding, but more coarse grained

yes, I've seen it in desserts at Chinese buffets

@ElendilTheTall congratulations. It must have been hard for a fresh father - or do you get normal sleep now?

@ElendilTheTall no, they boil the tapioca in milk there. I boiled it in water and whipped the cream separately. The tapioca itself is a tasteless goo, but gives some chewiness.

I'll go to the Turkish grocery store now, let's see what they have. Maybe there will be lamb meat.

4:16 PM

@rumtscho normally wake up once a night

@rumtscho or even just lamb :)

it hasn't actually been too bad

I have cut down on bread, chocolate (and sweets in general), peanut butter, and cookies

use a spray oil for frying, and eat much more veg

yes, veg instead of processed carbs is always a good step

so I really should go out and buy some for me, I don't want to spend the weekend on a tapioca diet :P

see you later

c u

4:44 PM

@FaheemMitha Could be worse. We used to troubleshoot @rumtscho's Linux boxes here...

and my websites

good old PHP

Oh yes, I remember those.

how are things in @derobert land?

@ElendilTheTall Ok. Not much interesting going on. Except for a web API I need to finish today.

Which isn't that bad, except for the amount of ancient code it needs to touch.

punched cards?

4:49 PM

@ElendilTheTall Not quite that old, thankfully.

@derobert But not any more?

The conversation here seems more OT than usual, even for these channels.

@FaheemMitha Haven't in a while. Maybe she stopped breaking them...

@FaheemMitha I don't think this channel has ever been on topic.

@derobert she?

Well, it does only say "sometimes hot, always heavy". I guess it's hard to say what's off-topic from that...

@FaheemMitha yes, rumtscho is a she.

@derobert Oh? Hmm. I guess I just assume everyone in these rooms is male...

In general, bad assumption, granted.

4:59 PM

jolene, mien, rumi - all ladies

well, female anyway

<runs>

@ElendilTheTall ah, Ok. A bit unusual for these sites, I think.

5:14 PM

@FaheemMitha hi, glad to see you again

I have to thank you, our discussion at the beginning of the week was very helpful.

Not only did I notice some weaknesses in the way I present my ideas :P, I also came up with an idea for the heuristic I need.

@rumtscho Glad to hear it was helpful.

So, any plans to ask for data sets, then? :-)

Incidentally, academia.sx is a reasonable place to ask academia-type questions, though most of the time the answers are too broad to be really helpful.

@FaheemMitha So... a reasonable place to ask academia-type questions, as long as you don't need a useful answer? :-P

Sort of like how Super User is a reasonable place to ask Linux questions.

I was very disappointed in them

I once asked a question about the philosophy of science, based on a book about research methods

@derobert Well, it is better than nothing. I guess maybe I'm being a bit too hard on the site. I've gleaned some useful perspective from there. But it is definitely not a good place for solid concrete info. The community is too diverse for that.

It was connected to how to do good research

and they decided to close it as off topic, because it's not connected to academics' everyday lives.

5:21 PM

A lot of the site is students geting screwed over by faculty. Who then come to the site to ask for advice on how to handle it. Since the people answering are dominated by faculty, the answers are predictably wishy-washy.

@rumtscho Do you have a link?

@rumtscho That's too bad.

@FaheemMitha I'm in no mood to look for it. It was some time ago. I think they also migrated it somewhere.

A honest answer would be - you are getting screwed by some bastard. there is nothing you can do about it, sorry. at least, nothing you can do without seriously risking your career prospects.

@rumtscho Ok

Also, I think most of the people answering are "nice" faculty, who are genuinely there to help, and don't realise how badly their colleagues can behave with junior people. And when told, often refuse to believe it. There's a moral in there somewhere.

There, now I'm contributing to the OT as well.

@FaheemMitha you could speak about food in principle. But I personally only do so when I'm hungry.

@derobert just curious. have you spent much time in universities? I didn't get the impression that you had.

@rumtscho :-)

@FaheemMitha No, I haven't.

5:29 PM

@derobert Yes, that's what I thought. You're probably better off for it.

Unfortunately foreigners get stuck in universities, because it is often the only way to integrate into society.

I think the "better off" part is personal. I'm glad I took a university path, even though it's not the straightest, and I don't plan to stay on it. But I certainly know many people for whom work straight away is the better choice.

I guess I'm just the kind of pedant who likes theorizing :)

@FaheemMitha My two younger brothers did. One majored in math, he learned a lot of math and hasn't bothered to go get a job actually putting it to use. The other majored, got a masters, and is now working on a PhD in finance, and plans to become a professor...

so what kind of job did the math brother get? or do you mean he got none?

@derobert Your second brother majored in math too?

Yes, math is a fairly useless subject in itself, unless you really, really like it. And you can basically do two things with it (a) teach (b) do research.

teaching is boring, and getting a math research job anywhere reasonable is brutal. Overall, not a good scene.

Yes, you can go into finance, but you don't need a math degree for that.

Those people hardly use any real math anyway.

@FaheemMitha Youngest in finance, middle on in math. He really likes math...

5:37 PM

@derobert the latter you described as "hasn't bothered to go get a job actually putting it to use"?

@FaheemMitha Yeah. The middle one.

I know a fair amount of math. It's been of essentially zero use to me outside a math dept.

Well, except the really elementary stuff.

One minor effect, however, is that when I talk to people, it is really incredible how little maths they know. Even supposedly highly educated people.

And I'm talking like simple algebra. The kind of thing you might teach a 10 year old. And basic reasoning.

Simple algebra? Wow.

I'm including people like professors in the sciences here.

@derobert Ask your friends and acquaintances to solve a quadratic equation. See what you get.

That's basically completing the square. It doesn't get any simpler.

@FaheemMitha Hmm, that could be interesting. Given, it'll take me a second to remember the quadratic formula. And I have surely forgotten all the "tricks" for factoring it.

(Part of that being that when I need to solve one, I have a computer do it...)

5:41 PM

@derobert Yes, remembering the formula is one way to go. But it they remember the formula correctly, ask them how to get it. That should be funny.

@derobert really, how do you get a computer to solve a quadratic? mathematica?

@FaheemMitha "From a math book?"

@derobert lol

You could make it really easy and ask for the solution of x^2 - 2x + 1 = 0. :-)

@FaheemMitha Errr, visit Wolfram Alpha. But I normally use a calculator.

@FaheemMitha I don't know the quadratic equation by heart either

@derobert Oh, symbolic calculator.

@rumtscho you mean the solution to a quadratic eqn? I do.

5:44 PM

@FaheemMitha Yep. Have an 89 and a 50g sitting around.

fact is, most people forget knowledge they don't use on a daily basis. The most abstract parts first. It's a feature of the brain, not a bug :)

(-b +- sqrt(b^2 - 4ac)) / 2a

I know I needed it a few months ago and had to look it up.

@FaheemMitha Yeah, but I even have a way to type ± :-P

@rumtscho I have not solved a quad eqn in a good many years. as far as I can remember.

5:46 PM

The knowledge wasn't gone completely, one look and I knew again how to use it

@rumtscho sure

but there are other things I have learned and forgotten so completely, if I again see them written down in a terse form, I won't remember them

Anyway, my point is that a quadratic eqn is about as simple as it gets. And ask someone to figure it out without looking up a formula.

So, yes, people don't know maths. That's my point.

@derobert so what is your middle brother doing? if not math?

a quadratic equation is not "as basic as it gets". It's 8th or 9th degree material. You need to learn 7 years of maths before it.

@FaheemMitha Some random programming work for a friend, who isn't paying him nearly enough for it.

5:48 PM

@rumtscho I think it is pretty basic. You could teach it to a 10 year old.

@derobert Ah, shame. Not continuing with math, then? Too bad.

@FaheemMitha Yeah, he really ought to get a job doing math... but good luck convincing him to bother.

But attitudes in math education vary widely. I think in Russia they really move people along when they are young. For example. Or they used to.

@derobert Oh. Motivational issues?

@FaheemMitha I guess. I have no idea why he doesn't care to.

I remember being horrified (in the good way) talking to Russian colleagues about their high scholl math experience.

You can teach a 10 year old many things, if you have the right didactic and motivation and the child has the necessary previous knowledge. This doesn't mean that it's "basic".

5:50 PM

@derobert Ah. Maybe talk more to him? Unless he doesn't want to. Family can be difficult.

@rumtscho Well, basic is relative, but I still think a quadratic equation is pretty basic.

They learned so much more stuff than I did.

I basically learned nothing in my school. It was like a big joke.

@FaheemMitha Everyone has tried, to no effect.

And math can be a really good experience for a child if you teach it sensibly.

@derobert I'm sorry to hear that.

Which nobody does, to my knowledge. Except maybe in Russia.

@FaheemMitha Russia doesn't teach well in general.

I mean, math probably does not make much sense from a career POV. But it is good mental training for the young.

@rumtscho Oh, are you connected with Russia?

@FaheemMitha Not much, but I know a few Russians. And I have followed a few Russian websites, so I have glimpsed a bit of the way they see their society.

5:55 PM

@rumtscho Ah, Ok. But their high school education is much more advanced than the West, I think. And certainly much more so than India.

I also had a research assistant who was Russian, finished highschool and a bachelor's there, then came to Germany for the next degree.

Also, my own education started in 1990, so it was still much more modeled on the Russian style than on Western style.

There is more material supposed to be forced into the students' heads than in the West. Especially "hard" stuff - scientific theory and solving math or physics problems

@rumtscho That implies East Germany. Is that right?

@rumtscho I see. But not much understanding?

but the teachers don't understand much pedagogy, the textbooks are awful, and nobody cares about soft skills such as teamwork.

"Forcing" has an ugly sound to it. You mean the students don't want to learn?

@FaheemMitha the bright kids understand it, the others don't.

6:00 PM

@rumtscho Hmm. Ok.

@rumtscho that's true everywhere. but forcing people leads to pointless stress and misery.

it's a sink or swim situation without much support from anywhere. Pure carrot and stick, with the stick prevailing.

@FaheemMitha I'm from Bulgaria, I moved to Germany when I was 18

@rumtscho Oh, Ok. I think maybe you mentioned that before. Yes, you were talking about people throwing rubbish, with reference to Bulgaria.

The topics on this room really get around.

yes, my politically incorrect gypsy musings

@rumtscho why incorrect? they sounded on target to me.

@FaheemMitha politically incorrect

6:04 PM

@derobert Still here? I'm never quite sure what that term means. Chomsky has a good theory about it, though.

Well, it's a racial problem. Especially for the Americans here, it probably had an unpleasant undertone.

@rumtscho as I recall, you thought of it as a cultural issue. which seems fair enough. Here in India there are very similar problems. Though far worse in nature and degree.

Part of the reason India is so badly off is precisely the sort of issues you identified with rubbish throwing. social dysfunction.

@FaheemMitha But I guess political correctness is not so prevalent in India. I don't think there is a country in the world where political correctness is so revered as in the USA.

I don't think it is so much racial as social.

@rumtscho No idea. I lived there. I think people are superficially more polite in the US, but underneath people are not so different.

@FaheemMitha yes, but the social divides sometimes run along race division lines.

6:08 PM

@rumtscho That's true, certainly.

The problem is that the American culture promotes being judgmental, and judging everything into black and white.

I once read how a scientist published a paper researching the connection of one specific developmental problem to childhood sexual abuse, and found no link.

The paper caused lots of controversy in the USA, because everywhere it was understood as "He is saying that pedophiles are good guys"

@rumtscho Hmm, I'd have to think about that one a bit.

there was even one state government which publicly denounced the paper and declared it untrue.

@rumtscho weird.

In our very own chat room here, there was once a really heated argument between Jolene and Cerberus

6:14 PM

@rumtscho I'm not sure what you're referring to, can't remember that one.

They do seem to promote hysteria about child sexual abuse in the media. I've seen that commented about in more than one place. Adam Cadre had some good things to say about stuff related to that.

But we certainly have a media that loves to promote hysteria about everything.

it started when Jolene said that marijuana is harmless and Cerberus said that he doesn't think it's completely harmless

she then retaliated and it became weird

Partly the general US popn seems very... "nervous". For lack of a better term. Plus rather ignorant about stuff. Not a great combination. E.g. hysteria about terrorists.

later, rereading it, I realized what had happened

6:15 PM

How easy was it to get them worked up about that?

The Drug War is another aspect of that.

once he said "it's not completely harmless", she assumed that he's in the "it's an instrument of the devil" camp and advocates mass banning of pot smoking

which, as far as I know, he doesn't.

And they seem to also have a very violent culture. The answer to everything is violence.

Though if you are sufficiently privileged, it is not really noticeable. I was never directly affected myself.

@rumtscho heh

As far as I understood, according to him, it's neither completely harmless, nor completely dangerous. And he wasn't saying anything about his position on banning it or not banning.

but the fact that she reacted so heavily from one sentence made me realize once more how divided into the extremes the American public is.

@rumtscho right. And the other person was American?

@rumtscho a lot of brainwashing goes on.

@FaheemMitha Jolene was American, Cerberus (who said "not completely harmless") was Dutch

6:18 PM

@rumtscho ok

From this, and also from other small things noticeable in American media, it seems that they are not just "nervous", but also very divided

@rumtscho they are probably both.

If you want to get some priceless reactions out of Americans, ask them what they think of their country being based on mass-murdering the people who lived there, and stealing their land.

it is assumed that, whatever opinion you have, it's on one of the extreme ends of the spectrum, and you are actively trying to prevent others from living according to their own opinion (which is on the other end of the spectrum)

That's actually a really good way to get Americans hysterical, in my experience.

My cousin is a real-life troll

he once visited America, and was wearing a Marteniza

Martenitsa

Martenitsa (Bulgarian: мартеница, pronounced [ˈmartɛnit͡sa], Macedonian: мартинка, Greek: μάρτης, Romanian: mărțișor) is a small piece of adornment, made of white and red yarn and worn from March 1 until around the end of March (or the first time an individual sees a stork, swallow, or budding tree). The name of the holiday is Baba Marta. "Baba" (баба) is the Bulgarian word for "grandmother" and Mart (март) is the Bulgarian word for the month of March. Baba Marta is a Bulgarian tradition related to welcoming the upcoming spring. The month of March, according to Bulgarian folklore, marks the beginning...

It's basically a harmless tradition, not that far removed from putting up a tree on Christmas - but one visible on your body.

He was asked what this thing is.

6:23 PM

@rumtscho I don't know if that is actually true. I think there is a lot of conventional/received opinions, and people tend to go with them. E.g. drugs bad, Muslims potential terrorists (read dangerous).

But I expect there is division between the elites and the poorer members of society. Who think rather differently from the middle and upper classes, I believe.

@rumtscho and?

He told them that it is a Bulgarian traditional decoration signifying that we are proud do be Bulgarian and that it's in remembrance of our victories above the Turks and so on. Basically, the way he said it, he described it as a fascist symbol.

They were taken aback and started telling him off for being fascist

and he told him that they are being offensive to his ethnic tradition, so they are fascist themselves

that got them really histerical

I'm afraid I've forgotten the story a bit, I don't remember the exact words he said he used

@rumtscho He sounds like a funny guy.

@FaheemMitha I don't really think of him in those terms. He's really a troll, and can be quite annoying this way. Especially because he doesn't mind overstepping boundaries. But he's family, and I still like him.

@FaheemMitha yes, I've heard these opinions. But what bugs me that, if somebody says one word slightly aligned with one of these opinions, he can be pigeonholed as a zealot fighting for that exterme opinion.

@derobert look here

> ABSTRACT: Research over many years establishes the negative effects of child sexual abuse are not as pervasive, severe, and long-lasting as generally assumed. But rather than being seen by victims' advocates as good news, such research results are met with resistance, anger, and personal attacks.

> This controversy reached its height in 1999 when the media, conservative organizations, and the United States Congress condemned a 1998 meta-analysis in the Psychological Bulletin by Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman. The American Psychological Association's response to the furor was to distance itself from the article and its authors. This episode demonstrates the difficulty of doing and reporting research where conclusions contradict strongly held beliefs.

ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume16/j16_2.htm

@FaheemMitha Yeah... that one is hard to answer.

Well, the Germans are responsible for a genocide too. And a much more recent one. But in my opinion, they handle it better than the Americans.

6:36 PM

@rumtscho Ok, at least one of those groups is universally recognized as being idiots. One of the other two is as well, though which one depends on who you ask.

But yeah, we do have a lot of people who will attempt to crucify you for disagreeing with their cherished, non-evidence-based beliefs.

The problem is not even that much about evidence based vs non evidence based. Beliefs are beliefs per definition, not proofs.

The problem is that, if you have an opinion that is a single millimeter apart from theirs, you are public enemy Nr 1.

@rumtscho If you mean the mass murder of Jewish people, the important difference is that the Germans have (a) taken responsibility for it happening and (b) dedicated themselves to being more peaceful.

Though imo they were never that violent to begin with. They're actually very civilized people as Europeans go. They just had a bad 12 years.

they fought wars before too, but the other European nations did it the same way back then.

On the other hand, neither the Americans or the British have ever accepted the slightest responsibility for the numerous horrific crimes.

As far as I can tell.

Most of their energy goes into denying it ever happened. If not blame the victims. And if that doesn't work, say, oh stuff happens. Why look backward? etc. etc.

I know quite a lot about British criminal history. I'm Indian, so...

@FaheemMitha I don't know about the British, I don't have much info on which to base an opinion. I guess that you as an Indian will know better about their colonial politics.

6:46 PM

@rumtscho I said "as Europeans go". Europe has historically been a very violent place. Lots of nasty little wars. Really improved their technology, though.

@rumtscho But some beliefs (using the word loosely) are backed by a fair bit of evidence, other's aren't. That one (at least said paper argues) is not. I guess I probably disapprove more when someone goes yelling and screaming about something which they really shouldn't be that confident in.

@FaheemMitha I don't know, were other continents more peaceful?

Also, I'm sure looking from afar, you naturally only hear the loudest...

The Germans certainly did bad things. But they weren't so enthusiatic as some of the other countries.

@derobert ?

Many other nations are built around a warrior culture. Look at the Japanese in Asia or the Massai in Africa.

6:48 PM

@rumtscho That's a hard question to answer, but there seems to have been a lot of violence for such a small place.

@FaheemMitha Well, if a few people have a reasonable discussion about a policy, no one really cares outside the people directly involved. If someone goes on a crazy rant, the Daily Show picks it up.

@rumtscho The Japanese are quite similar to Europe in some ways. That's how they survived the Europeans so well.

I don't know anything about the Masai.

@rumtscho Warrior culture is one thing. Massacring the crap out of people that have never done anything to you is another.

@derobert I guess that I'm also emotionally more annoyed by people who scream about opinions which contradict the evidence (that I know of). But on a purely ethical level, I disagree with trying to force one's beliefs on another human, or on declaring the other human for something less than oneself, because his beliefs are different. Even if the person doing the forcing or dehumanizing agrees with my beliefs.

@FaheemMitha well, the Ottomans might have ended up in Europe, but came from the Middle east for example

But basically, I think it's no wonder that a small place as Europe had so much more violence

@rumtscho The British have a very ugly history. As in, spectacularly ugly. Much of it is little known, particularly in the UK (of course).

there were less natural resources to be divided between more people

6:52 PM

@FaheemMitha You mean their empire wasn't built by having afternoon tea and biscuits and politely asking everyone to join? :-P

@rumtscho dunno what the reasons were, exactly. But I think the general opinion is that was related to the resulting high level of technology.

@derobert No. :-) Did you think it was?

The assumption is that since there are only (I think) four countries on earth that haven't been conquered by Britain at some time, we've been pretty horrible to pretty much everyone

@FaheemMitha No, of course not. I'm not British, after all.

They used the technology to murder each other. It's still going on. See Pentagon funding for techology.

It's not so much facts to know about as a continuum

6:53 PM

basically, if humans have a common problem to solve, they start aggregating larger groups, which increases survival. but if they don't face external danger, they start splintering internally.

@TomW really? I'm pretty sure Bulgaria was never conquered by Brittain.

@TomW I don't think it is only 4.

@TomW Does four include Britain? Because if so, I don't think you should count that one.

@rumtscho there was some specious reasoning that I can't quite remember, but I'll try to find it. It's true only by way of a technicality

22

mentalfloss.com/article/13019/…

Depends on your defn of conquered. The British really got around. But they didn't get around that much.

6:54 PM

oh yes, invaded

pardon me

@derobert you're on fire today.

Well, if Bulgaria counts as invaded, they must mean the Crusades

England was pretty horrible to both Scotland and Ireland over a fair number of centuries. The memory still lingers.

@rumtscho That list is missing Japan. I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

I think I was thinking of that article or various like it, I'm not sure where my brain got four from. Anyway, it's a small number

hmm the book costs 11 dollars. I don't think I want to read it enough to pay that.

amazon.com/Countries-Weve-Ever-Invaded-ebook/dp/B009UV5PT6

6:57 PM

@FaheemMitha I would imagine there was a small contingent there at the end of WWII

@rumtscho I wonder how we compare... I doubt we've accomplished as many, but probably close...

@TomW Hmm, forgot about WW 2.

the Americans did basically all the fighting, but there were British in Manchuria IIRC

@derobert the English had an unfair advantage of quite a few centuries. I'm sure you missed more.

Yes, but we've probably done more this century. Though we seem to always invite the British along for the ride.

6:58 PM

@rumtscho The US has been trying to make up for it. Do drones count as invasion?

@FaheemMitha Well, he counted pirates and privateers, so I'd guess so.

@derobert ok

I've been a bit baffled by the drone thing for a while. I would have imagined a fairly sophisticated country like Pakistan would have the tech to shoot them down if they know it's a regular occurrence, for example