The DMZ

@AviD BTW I see $hipsterstartup are hiring for on-site in San francisco <shakes head> why people think that hiring in one of the most expensive locations on the planet is a good plan, is beyond me

AviD

11:51 AM

well, except using a mac for no other reason than macmacmac

Rоry McCune

@AviD See Asus have a new macbook killer out

AviD

@RоryMcCune right? Thats part of the hipsterthink. that and VCthink

@RоryMcCune its self-gratifying. ALL THE BEST DEVS ARE IN SF, donchaknow

Rоry McCune

@AviD yeah it is, and it's crazy as it means you compete with all the big boys and have to pay a huge premium for staff

AviD

@RоryMcCune and miss out on tons and tons of other great people

not to mention having to open yourself up to nonhipsterthink

Rhino

@AviD Who will not, for any reason, move there.

Rоry McCune

11:53 AM

@AviD yeah exactly, who either can't or won't relocate

AviD

which is actually part of the problem...

Rhino

Recruiters never get it when they say "I have this great job in London" and I say "no, because London"

Rоry McCune

@Rhino yeah worked in london on brief pieces a couple of times, nice to visit, definitely wouldn't want to live there

Rhino

@AviD @RоryMcCune on that subject... cyber games as a recruitment drive? Good, bad or ugly?

@RоryMcCune Yeah that's my view too. As a tourist... AMAZING. As a place to live... well I can't afford that big palace thing so no.

Rоry McCune

@Rhino I don't think they're a bad idea, depends on execution but they can get some interesting going.

AviD

11:55 AM

@Rhino it depends. I think its great if youre trying to hire students or interns, not so much for those who have better things to do with their time.

Rоry McCune

In the UK pen test market they're being used for grad hires a lot

e.g areyouan.ncc.ninja

AviD

though obviously Ptacek, who is a somewhat outspoken expert on this, disagrees.

@RоryMcCune see that makes sense. Also, .ninja wtf??

Rоry McCune

@AviD yeah I know I know

but hey gotta attract the cool kids right

AviD

@RоryMcCune NO

the cool kids suck

Rоry McCune

@AviD :)

AviD

11:57 AM

and are ridiculously expensive

and all live (or want to live) in SF

or I should say "work in SF", cuz who can call that living

Rhino

@RоryMcCune Makes sense. I still wish I could cross over from dev though, and no matter where I go it's either grad hires or seniors. Sucks.

I'm not a ninja either. I'm a rhino.

For now.

AviD

@Rhino see? not enough respect for the damn rhinos, everyone wants a ninja or a rockstar.

and what about the pirates, I ask you??

Rhino

@AviD I know. We're endangered and everything!

Rоry McCune

@Rhino you should speak to @Polynomial he was a dev. made the move across to pen testing a couple of years back

Rhino

@AviD They're doing just fine. I checked by watching pirates of the carribean. In the end, they beat the nasty British.

Rоry McCune

11:59 AM

can be done, but yeah first step is tricky

AviD

@Rhino I actually dont see much call for "seniors". mostly grads or intermediates, who love to call themselves seniors, or executive corp type paperpushers.

Rоry McCune

also pen testing doesn't always pay as well as dev. work, depending on the kind of dev work you do

@AviD depends on the customer :)

AviD

> or executive corp type paperpushers

;-)

Rоry McCune

@AviD :P

AviD

but yeah, there is some, but mostly kinda niche

the mass amount of work, especially consulting work, is as I said

Rhino

12:01 PM

@RоryMcCune Yeah true

AviD

the real senior positions are usually for direct hire, full time

which also kinda makes sense

Rhino

Ah well it's an itch I've had for a while.

Anyway, I have an account again.

AviD

@Rhino you should get some cream from your doctor for that

Rhino

@AviD Vet. Technically, I'm a rhino.

AviD

NOBODY SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE HORN

WHOA

@Rhino just realized

Rhino

12:04 PM

@AviD See for my latest name I picked something with plenty of innuendo potential.

AviD

damn thats sneaky

Lucas Kauffman

so many animals, rhinos, tigers, llamas, canadians, rories, bears

Rhino

Rhinos are sneaky

AviD

@Rhino I was just saying

I had a suspicion, then checked right before you mentioned

Rhino

Plus as you can see in my avatar, I have a massive horn.

AviD

12:05 PM

sneaky indeed

Rhino

So obviously I am not to be trusted.

@LucasKauffman Bears were taken, besides I like rhinos.

Which is handy, seeing as I am one.

M'vy

@LucasKauffman do you think Thomas middle name could be Rory?

AviD

@M'vy Rory's middle name is Thomas. All of them. All the Rories.

Lucas Kauffman

@M'vy yea but what's the french version of Rory?

AviD

consider it Bear Injection.

Journeyman Geek

12:06 PM

le rory?

Lucas Kauffman

@JourneymanGeek le rori I guess then

M'vy

@LucasKauffman good question

Rhino

@M'vy les écossais ?

Lucas Kauffman

Le montagnard?

M'vy

I don't actually think it's translated to anything but Rory

Rhino

12:13 PM

Ok so I tried it in wordreference. The closest match was "ROR" apparently (MMR in English)

AviD

you're all missing the point. Rory IS french, its a translation for Rorard, the original English name.

Not sure why the Scottish adopted the French pronunciation though

heh, Rorard would make a great GoT name.

btw speaking of which, @RоryMcCune did you finish filming the next season?

ohh damn, sorry I forgot your character was killed off at the end of the last one. Sorry mate.

Rhino

@AviD What? @RоryMcCune is in GoT?

AviD

@Rhino imdb.com/name/nm0564920

Rory McCann

Rory McCann (born 24 April 1969) is a Scottish actor best known for portraying Sandor "The Hound" Clegane on the HBO series Game of Thrones. == Early life == McCann was born in Glasgow, Scotland. He has a sister, Sally-Gay McCann, who is 3 years younger than he. He has said that he was bullied for being small and skinny at school. Prior to being an actor, McCann was a forester who studied at the Scottish School of Forestry near Inverness. He also worked as a bridge painter (on the Forth Road Bridge), landscape gardener, and carpenter. == Career == McCann was fired from his first movie set because...

Rоry McCune

@AviD what makes you think he's dead

AviD

aka Sandor Clegane, aka The Hound

@RоryMcCune oooooo

thats right, Arya left before he was dead

are you spoilering the season??

Rоry McCune

12:17 PM

@AviD nope 'cause I don't know

AviD

whatch out, GRR will kill you off! , not your character, you for real IRL

Rоry McCune

but I do know it's been suggested by some fans that he's not dead

Rhino

So @LucasKauffman is starting a pop career, @Flyk actually has a pop career, @RоryMcCune is an actor... you've all got interesting sidelines...

I forgot about @AviD and his underground lair.

Lucas Kauffman

@Rhino Full of hipster stuff

@AviD wears glasses with a correction of 0, just so he can wear glasses

Rhino

@LucasKauffman Obviously, that goes without saying.

AviD

12:20 PM

@Rhino it does keep the temperature down nicely.

speaking of which, I discovered today when I went ot pick up my kid, that summer has actually started.

a not-too-unpleasant 26C out, though that is perfect for the beach and not great for sitting in an office.

Rоry McCune

@AviD not here it hasn't, we have snow!

Ohnana

ugh if i have to read one more article jerking off about how straight men are stupid/evil/useless I'm suing the gawker network

AviD

though my house does keep it at least 8C cooler, and my ~~office~~ lair yet another 6C cooler.

@RоryMcCune dont you have snow in the summer?

Rоry McCune

@AviD not usually... no

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD Im in amsterdam, it's cold and gray and the client made me sit in the cellar :(

AviD

12:23 PM

@LucasKauffman oo lookit the fancy Big4 consultant, auditing a wine cellar

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD As if they would let me go near the wine ;)

AviD

auditing.

its not like you touch the servers when auditing those.

Rhino

@AviD It's Scotland, so rain.

@Ohnana most disagreements are caused by a failure to acknowledge nuance. Or in contrapositive form, a nuanced debate is hard so a generic article/rant targetting a whole class of people is easier.

For example, I don't suppose you have linkedin but right now there are a ton of articles on how to "handle millennials"

where millenials are a whole decade of people.

raz

@raz ,what i am trying to ask is, What are all the issues we will face, like some applications using old library calls may fail. I want to know whether any application related issues — jeyanthinath 6 mins ago

"I can haz all da problemz!?"

Rhino

See also buzzfeed "10 stereotyped ideas used as linkbait you've probably never considered!"

AviD

12:38 PM

@Rhino actually closer to 2 decades.

raz

@AviD Generations are weird.

AviD

indeed.

especially yours.

raz

Can sometimes be 3 decades, depending on how your parents were raised.

Ohnana

@Rhino i don't see the millennial jerk so much. although the "we have it so bad you don't UNDERSTAND maaaaan" article has been hidden from my feed

best facebook feature

AviD

free flags!

0

Q: TCP instead of HTTP

TCP is a stateful protocol and HTTP is a stateless protocol. Web application needs to maintain the session so why we use HTTP instead of TCP?

web-application

raz

12:40 PM

Best Facebook Feature: Delete Account

AviD

in 10 seconds

Rhino

@Ohnana The first law of the internet: if you can't produce insightful, meaningful content, produce "content". As much of it as you can. Get in people's faces.

Ohnana

@Rhino i thought the first rule is "everyone's an idiot"

AviD

@Rhino "insightful, meaningful content"... isnt that like the most useful CAPTCHA ever?

@raz your first comment was pointless. your 2nd is wrong, or at least a misnomer

layer 3/4 is an OSI terminology, doesnt fit real networks.

raz

@AviD huh?

AviD

12:42 PM

what happens if there is TLS? layer 3.5?

Rhino

@Ohnana could be, actually. Maybe it's the second law then :)

But I'd change it to "there are many idiots"

raz

@AviD He's not asking about TLS. And HTTP is application data. Which runs over transport. How is that wrong?

Rhino

and probably upgrade it to "law of human existence" as it applies outside the internet too.

AviD

@raz its not wrong, I'm saying that calling it "layer 3/4" is inaccurate, and a holdover from OSI.

and what about IPSec?

@Rhino no no, it IS "everyone".

at least statistically speaking, it is close enough.

@Rhino the point is that the internet makes even smart people become idiots.

Lucas Kauffman

raz

12:46 PM

@AviD It's not even the OSI model. If it were OSI it'd be Layer 4 and Layer 5.

Internet protocol suite

The Internet protocol suite is the computer networking model and set of communications protocols used on the Internet and similar computer networks. It is commonly known as TCP/IP, because its most important protocols, the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and the Internet Protocol (IP), were the first networking protocols defined in this standard. Often also called the Internet model, it was originally also known as the DoD model, because the development of the networking model was funded by DARPA, an agency of the United States Department of Defense. TCP/IP provides end-to-end connectivity...

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD IPsec is a layer 9 protocol running over the synergies of the dark cyber web space

2

AviD

@raz heh, true.

raz

And @LucasKauffman saves the day.

With his potatoe

Journeyman Geek

@LucasKauffman boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew?

Lucas Kauffman

@JourneymanGeek and eat it

Journeyman Geek

12:48 PM

of course

AviD

@JourneymanGeek and then serve 'em next to the potatoes. Jeez you llamas are sick.

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD Aviiiiid, Aviiiiiiid

What happened to "special" OP @Avid? ;)

AviD

@LucasKauffman you ate the OP's hands.

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD Come on, that's like my least favourite thing to do

raz

@LucasKauffman Do you prefer feet?

Lucas Kauffman

12:57 PM

@raz yo momma

raz

Well that was unnecessary

Lucas Kauffman

@raz she told me it had been a while though

CodesInChaos

@AviD I never got why people like using OSI layers that much, despite the internet not being based on OSI.

AviD

@CodesInChaos right? I cant tell you how many times people have insisted at me that everything is OSI.

CodesInChaos

I'm also one of those that believes that the TCP layer should be merged with the crypto layer.

Lucas Kauffman

1:03 PM

crypto by default

CodesInChaos

Leads to higher robustness, allows secure multi-IP support and saves one roundtrip over TCP+TLS.

Lucas Kauffman

@CodesInChaos honestly, I'd prefer it at IP level

IPsec all the things

Tinned_Tuna

@CodesInChaos it's mostly because OSI is often taught along side the real model in academic institutions; and because it's often easier to understand, given it's abstract nature. Discussions of OSI are short, theoretical and devoid of technical detail. Discussions of TCP quickly descend into discussions of headers, frames and back-off algorithms.

CodesInChaos

Not sure if IPsec is the right approach.

Lucas Kauffman

@CodesInChaos at least for authenticating packets it would be great

CodesInChaos

1:06 PM

I see two problems. One is obtaining the long term key of the partner.

raz

@LucasKauffman Well yeah since my dad died. Probably.

CodesInChaos

IMO pushing it to DNS is the conceptually right approach for that, but DNSSEC+DANE has a lot of haters.

Ohnana

D:

CodesInChaos

The second problem is obtaining the ephemeral key to achieve forward secrecy.

Unless you go the MinimaLT route of pushing that into name resolution as well, that costs a round trip.

raz

@CodesInChaos I think it's a bit difficult to push crypto to DNS. The infrastructure isn't really made for that.

Lucas Kauffman

1:08 PM

@CodesInChaos performance is overrated

CodesInChaos

And thus doesn't fit well into a stateless "send packet" protocol like IP

raz

I like the crypto implemented at the IP layer.

Lucas Kauffman

@raz Yea but inventing a new nameserver protocol isnt happening anytime soon

raz

@LucasKauffman Right, which is why it's difficult.

CodesInChaos

@LucasKauffman I don't care much about the latency due to the roundtrip, but rather that it doesn't fit the abstraction.

Lucas Kauffman

1:11 PM

Best Old Spice Ad Ever

►

CodesInChaos

IMO the order should be "packets (e.g. IP) -> crypto -> rate-limiting -> reliability"

AviD

@Tinned_Tuna really? in my uni they ONLY taught OSI, as if it WAS the real thing.

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD we did both, comparing it. I think for explaing things generally, the OSI model is better as it allows you do split up things a bit more than TCP/IP

AviD

@LucasKauffman good point. Also in biology classes, they should start by dissecting Ken dolls.

raz

@AviD I think current classes are switching to a more, "This is what we used to do, now this is the real world."

CodesInChaos

1:16 PM

For example why do I have to use TCP with it's stupid stream abstraction and annoying resending behaviour, just because I don't want to flood the connection?

AviD

@LucasKauffman 2nd year university literature classes should focus on "See Spot Run".

@raz okay, but when did we all do OSI?

even the old pre-TCP networks werent strictly OSI.

CodesInChaos

@raz We never used OSI. AFAIK it was stuck it committee forever and TCP/IP took over the world.

raz

@AviD I guess I meant, "This is what we used to teach". Sorry for the confusion.

AviD

excuses, excuses.

you should go work with @LucasKauffman

raz

@AviD I am above the law!

AviD

1:18 PM

@raz The law? you want the law?? I AM THE LAW!!

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD You are the one who knocks?

AviD

I always knock twice?

raz

I thought it was knock three times, and whisper low.

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD Breaking Bad reference, I'm disapointed in you.

AviD

@LucasKauffman nope, never seen.

my reference predates yours by a few decades.

inb4 "as expected"

The Postman Always Rings Twice

The Postman Always Rings Twice may mean: The Postman Always Rings Twice (novel), a 1934 crime novel by James M. Cain The Postman Always Rings Twice (1946 film), a drama-film noir based on the novel The Postman Always Rings Twice (1981 film), an adaptation of the novel The Postman Always Rings Twice (opera), an opera based on the novel...

Lucas Kauffman

1:21 PM

@AviD oh your time was more like when TV wasnt a thing and you'd go to a cinema where a piano player was doing the sound?

AviD

@LucasKauffman shuddup, I already inb4'd you.

hmm. I just realized that novel was 50 shades of gray, 80 years before 50 shades of gray.

Lucas Kauffman

its been a while since I read a good novel

need to get one

raz

@AviD That movie is being released on bluray with an alternate ending.

Too bad I'm sure both endings suck.

Ohnana

@AviD there's been a ton of novels exploring sadomasochism

AviD

@raz The Postman Always Rings Twice? Again??

@Ohnana you're a ton of novels.

@Ohnana that may be so, but I doubt many did it as poorly as 50 shades.

Ohnana

1:30 PM

@AviD gorean.

very silly book about protocol -- and there's a ton of people who identify as "gorean"

AviD

oh gawd, why did you make me sully my brain by wiki'ing that

Ohnana

what, the books or the protocol

AviD

what protocol

Ohnana

the books then

yeah, very silly

Tinned_Tuna

1:56 PM

@AviD lol, we were taught OSI, then we switched to "The Real Thing"

basically "Here's what we wish could happen, and here's what does happen."

AviD

it took me a while to realize that even though they were teaching the specific bits and header fields for TCP and IP in the context of OSI, that TCP/IP wasn't in OSI.

Thomas Pornin

@M'vy Actually, my middle name is "Claude" so my full name yields the acronym "TCP".

10

AviD

hahaha

Ohnana

@ThomasPornin awesome

M'vy

2:14 PM

@ThomasPornin Nice one

Damn you guys, I'm spending way to much time tuning my tmux ...

AviD

@M'vy ha, nice euphemism. New one.

M'vy

Outch : bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

Ohnana

oh shit. why would he do that?

M'vy

HIIK

AviD

clearly, the plane was evil.

Flyk

2:39 PM

@Rhino ew, pop

AviD

@Flyk still better than poop.

yknow, what @Simon listens to.

Flyk

I wasn't aware that bridge-level quality of jokes were acceptable in here

Ohnana

your mum jokes are higher quality than poop jokes?

AviD

@Ohnana oh by far.

@Flyk and, in general, they are not.

this wasnt a poop joke, it was a @Simon-likes-crap-instead-of-music joke.

Ohnana

@AviD you are so butthurt over his personal choices

it's DELICIOUS.

AviD

2:48 PM

@Ohnana wat, me? Not at all.

Flyk

@AviD but you don't have any taste in music, so how can you justify @Simon's?

AviD

though I would hardly call listening to hardstyle "a choice".

@Flyk just cuz I cant make it, doesnt mean I have no taste.

I cant jump high either, doesnt mean I cant appreciate Michael Jordan's talent.

Ohnana

pretty much everytime someone breathes the word "music" you take a dig at hardstyle

Flyk

who is Michael Jordan?

also

no, nevermind

I'm going to go laze around in the sun for a bit

AviD

@Ohnana oh thats just cuz its such an easy target

anyway it has more to do with me taking a dig at @Simon than anything else

@Flyk whut

do something useful, give me a current recommendation for rar files on win8.

is winrar still the canonical tool for that?

7zip? heard rumours it dont work on 8.

Flyk

2:57 PM

@AviD 7zip

AviD

@Flyk yeah? no problems on win8.1?

M'vy

@AviD or you could VM a win7 with winrar on it to unrar for your win8 ?

AviD

@M'vy ...

M'vy

:)

AviD

sure. I'm already RDPing to a VM I have set up for client work, from a VM I have set up as VDI. I will simply run a VM on the VM from the VM so I can VM in my VM.

M'vy

2:59 PM

@AviD who does use RAR now anyway.

Ohnana

or you can use a fucking .tar.gz like normal people

AviD

@M'vy inorite? clients, damn them all.

@Ohnana IF I WANTED TO COMPRESS IT I WOULD USE SOMETHING NORMAL

rar is so last decade.

M'vy

@AviD @Ohnana I derive that clients aren't normal people

Ohnana

tell your client that they're dumbasses and throw a linux user guide at their face

also apparently when you edit a ping message it pings people again

AviD

@Flyk cool thanks - they explicitly support on win8 now. Win10 too for that matter.

M'vy

3:01 PM

@Ohnana or a Tannenbaum book about OSes.

AviD

@Ohnana what does linux have anything to do with anything?

M'vy

If you're still angry, go for the network book as a second round

Ohnana

@AviD it's a giant book

AviD

but yes, my reports basically say nothing but 60 pages of them being dumbasses.

Ohnana

and after that i recommend the O'reiley java reference

AviD

3:02 PM

@Ohnana I have a feeling that "Linux User Guide" is a non existent artifact.

Ohnana

@AviD it's a paper copy of man pages + DM documentation

it's so dumb

AviD

@Ohnana see this make more sense. although in this case the code I'm taking is 4GL.

IIII KNOOOOOOWWWW

@Ohnana so I wasnt far off.

M'vy

Ah ah reading:
| Is NSA Sniffing the Internet? Do they have the jurisdiction?
do they even care about jurisdiction ?

Ah damn you markdown, you can't even have a quote in non quoted text...

@M'vy BTW I mean before being caught red-handed, ofc

Rhino

@AviD Oh it exists. You have to compile it yourself.

Whaddaya mean you don't know how?

AviD

@Rhino "compile" and "user guide" are mutually exclusive terms, irrelevant of "knowing"

Rhino

3:13 PM

@AviD it was a joke...!

AviD

I KNOOOOOW

Rhino

A play on the word compile.

Which, I personally thought, was very clever. For a rhino.

AviD

ever had the pleasure of 4GL?

the specific informix language, not the generic concept.

Rhino

@AviD Nope sorry.

Sounds pretty hipster though.

AviD

I SAW THAT

M'vy

3:18 PM

oh god informix

AviD

YOU CANT HIDE WHAT YOU DID

@Rhino actually, the other way. Quite neckbeardy.

Rhino

It was unintentional actually. Somehow my brain typed the wrong word.

AviD

@M'vy yeah. I'm spending the next few days learning (trying to anyway) the language so I can review SEVERAL such systems.

Rhino

@AviD Ok I googled it and it was made by IBM. I think that qualifies it for extremely uncool.

AviD

makes no sense to me, but they insisted.

M'vy

3:19 PM

@AviD I worked on an informix DB during my first year of CS

AviD

@Rhino yeah, informix is IBM.

@M'vy oy, my condolences.

seen any 4GL?

M'vy

not sure

Rhino

I got excited when I saw fourth generation language in wikipedia. So advanced compared to my measly 3rd gen languages.

AviD

it seems quite sql-y, but apparently its the whole application.

Rhino

@AviD NO BUT I BET YOU HAVE TO WRITE IT ALL IN CAPITALS BECAUSE IT IS IBM.

M'vy

3:20 PM

Now that I looked a bit at it on google. I think not. We'd design DB and use SQL mostly IIRC

AviD

@Rhino heh, looks that way, apart from variables.

Rhino

Or have they noticed the invention of "lower case" all of a sudden?

AviD

I assumed it was personal preference, as many DBAs do in real SQL, but now that you mention it....

@Rhino oh yeah, I remember those leftovers from the 90's. Ever hear of Magic?

I mean this one:

Magic Software Enterprises

Magic Software Enterprises (NASDAQ: MGIC) is a global provider of software platforms for enterprise mobility, cloud applications, and business integration. Magic is listed on the NASDAQ Global Select Market and the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange TA-100 Index. == §History == Magic Software Enterprises was founded in 1983 by David Assia and Yaki Dunietz as a spin-off from Mashov Computers, a publicly traded Israeli company that provided business solutions on microcomputers. The new company was originally named Mashov Software Export (MSE), and developed software for the global market, specifically...

very popular in many gov't orgs.

Rhino

@AviD Magic like the thing Harry Potter does/the thing marketing departments say software can do? Or... ok too slow.

AviD

though WP hardly does justice to that horror, if you're not familiar.

Rhino

3:24 PM

wow Global enterprise software platform for byod cloud mobility. Is it also secured with two hundred and fifty six bit enterprise grade secure sockets layer?

AviD

@Rhino yeah that seems like marketing updated for this years buzzwords.

it was one of the big proponents of "programming for business people, not for programmers"

mainly because real programmers would run away screaming.

so they had to train a whole bunch of "non-programmer" programmers.

M'vy

3:41 PM

0

Q: AES or Serpent-Twofish-AES

I want to encrypt my private stuff like credit cards, money, rsa private keys... and so on but I don't know if I should use AES-256 only or in combo like Serpent-Twofish-AES. (I am using Veracrypt). And do the US goverment really use ONLY AES as encryption?