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12:00 AM
well the trust boundary is at that place because the dataflow leaves the systems
the application is a three tiered application - and every layer is on a different system
with system meaning machine
 
Hey folks
 
whoa, hold on ... I'm on level 3
geez ^^
 
hmm huh?
 
Layer 0: Context diagram, Layer 1: shows the three tiers as multi processes
 
usually the trust boundary crosses the dataflow (well, vice versa, but you know), not a process
but why go deeper than a tier?
 
12:04 AM
well the trust boundary crosses the input/output dataflow of the process
 
@theXs right, so thats outside the process.
or rather, they are outside the process.
are you using the SDL TM tool?
 
my threat model would be sufficient if I just model the tiers?!
yeah :)
 
@theXs probably. It is rare that you would need to model deeper than that.
is it a simple, standard web app?
 
well it's supposed to be a gateway to connect mobile handsets to backend systems in the company
 
@theXs ah, so not a simple crud app.
still, why do you think you need to go deeper?
 
12:09 AM
I read several books and papers on that topic and they all stated that I need to go deeper when (1) there's a trust boundary, (2) when I need to add more elements to explain the security impact
 
@theXs I agree. and?
(1) sounds like the trust boundary is outside your process (2) what elements are missing?
 
now you pretty much explained (1) to me: (1) does mean that I need to go deeper when there is a Trust Boundary INSIDE a process
 
@theXs ah yeah, heh.
 
I think I need to go deeper because: every tier reads the Web.XML for Configuration
 
@theXs datastore! ;-)
 
12:11 AM
well yeah
but since the datastore resides on the hdd there's a trust boundary between those too elements
 
well, thats not really deeper, thats just an element you forgot to add :-)
 
no - I added it in the tiers
that was one reason why I went deeper
the other reason is the validation which occurs inside the layers or the logging in the different processes
 
@theXs well, kinda. sorta. not really... its what SDLTM calls a "process boundary". (I think its in yellow). you do have a flow there crossing a boundary, but that can be locked down with ACLs and such. pull it back into your own trust.
@theXs not really seperate processes... just take them into account when you describe them.
besides, its really implementation anyway. so it should be ignored.
logging might be interesting, if there is a real mechanism or service for this.
 
well it's pretty much going to be a standard solution
probably some kind of apache logging or log4j
well ... I think your suggestions sound pretty good. That would have a HUGE impact on my workload
I think I went way to deep ...
I went that far that I modeld different process for different ouputs
AccountListXML and AccountListJSON were 2 different processes
 
@theXs ouch
 
12:19 AM
I wanted it to be bulletproof
 
it might just be my laziness, or my penchant for simplicity, but I dont split processes unless I absolutely have to.
 
well it's my first threat model ... I might tend to "overachieve", lol
 
@theXs no no no. That's Common TM Mistake #0 - It is never complete, dont even try.
@theXs ah. that might also be a mistake... I dont think its easy to learn this from a book. I always recommend doing the first few times with someone experienced.
 
well that was the problem: there was nobody experienced around
Which meant I had to learn it from books and some ressources online
 
@theXs hmm, sure.
 
12:21 AM
0
A: Getting rid of a large quantity of paper

D3C4FFI just came across this thread by accident. By chance I've had exactly this problem recently. Instead of buying an expensive high quality shredder like the above suggests I tried disposing of everything in a big bucket of water. To speed up the process, i used a blender to make it into a soup-...

 
@theXs seems like for a first timer, you're pretty well on the right track.
but I'm sure an external consultant could have come in handy ;-)
@D3C4FF lolwat??
ohh thats a funny thread...
 
@AviD This is how i spend my weekends :(
 
@D3C4FF fun! you can papier mache for the kids...
anyway @theXs good luck. I'm out for the night, but let me know if you still need anything more...
 
@AviD I was actually gonna turn them into bricks and let them dry out so we could use em for a fire (that warehouse gets freakin' cold)
We also flushed some of it down the toilet
 
or just drop a q on the site, I'm sure you'll get good answers too :-)
@D3C4FF hahah
 
12:26 AM
I was just thinking .. basically the Layer 1 would be really sufficient
since there are no trust boundaries inside that process
 
12:51 AM
Well, thanks @Avid. I appreciate your help :)
have a great evening
 
1:31 AM
GS4 with stock android. drool
 
 
2 hours later…
3:54 AM
hey guys I have posted a question on inclusion of tag-wikis in FAQ in meta.I request you all to give your views on this idea.
0
Q: Including tag-wiki and tag-wiki guidelines in FAQ?

Mayank SharmaI suggest that tag-wikis and guidelines for writing great tag wikis should be included in the FAQ for all the users to see.I am aware that the link to this blog post is provided on the edit-tag-wiki page. I feel that creating/editing tag-wikis are one of the most ignored features especially on s...

 
 
2 hours later…
6:03 AM
@TerryChia need kleenex? :P
ah I filled in tons of tagwikis for serverfault might do that as well here
 
6:34 AM
@theXs you are welcome! and good luck.
bloody hell!! 19 flags??
@LucasKauffman ah right, might be edits on that... cheers then!
@LucasKauffman dunno, so far most of them are "meh".
 
@AviD feel free to edit them
 
I think the important part of the tagwiki is to explain how it is used here. Stating the dictionary explanation, especially for a wellknown term, doesnt really add much.
 
@LucasKauffman yeah, I might then...
 
alright I'll keep that in mind ^^
 
6:38 AM
@LucasKauffman I think it was the facebook one that got to me... ;-)
btw why do we even HAVE a facebook tag??
 
true :P
 
now I liked
sometimes if its a niche term, that most people are not familiar with, it is enough to just describe it, and have the security implications obvious. e.g. .
 
6:52 AM
Best.Meta.Discussion.Evar.
63
Q: Please Add Means of Converting Reputation to Actual Beer

Craig StuntzWhen I help someone solve a programming problem, they often express their gratitude for the solution (yay!). Generally, this takes the form of one of the following: "Think you!" Sometimes, people offer to hire me for further work. (Generally, stay away from these folks; they've been hiding thei...

2
heh, a question with 4 votes to close, and ALL for different reasons. Lucky no one found a duplicate...
 
7:13 AM
 
7:24 AM
Im pro beer for answers
5 gold badges == Westvleteren
 
@Lucas Dude! What's with going loko on the tag wikis?!
13 suggested edits at the same time! I haven't seen that before on Sec.SE
 
back on serverfault I actually managed to make about 50 before one of the admins came online
 
@LucasKauffman Jesus! You're good
 
@Adnan nope, because they aren't all of decent quality
I should have taken more care of the security aspect
 
@LucasKauffman Oh no, I didn't explain correctly. You're good, as in "you made them pretty fast"
@LucasKauffman I have rejected 61% of them
Anybody can shed some light on this one?
Adnan, your calculation of the probability in the second half of the question is wrong. — D.W. 2 hours ago
I know they're very likely to be wrong, but why? What is the correct method then?
 
7:43 AM
@Adnan when a woman tells you "you made that pretty fast", she does NOT mean "you're good".
 
@AviD Really?! Awoh! I have a lot of thinking to do
 
lol ;-)
@Adnan hmm, I dont think you need to get all combinatorical, assuming we're looking for "at least" 128 (out of 160) i think it would be more like 0.5^160 / 0.5^128
no scratch that, you need to solve for 1-P.
in other words, what is the probability of there being more than 32 bits == 0?
so it would be 1 - 0.5^33
hmm, that math isnt working out either....
 
@LucasKauffman hmm, yeah, I think so.
you just have an infinite supply of those, dont you...
 
7:59 AM
@LucasKauffman Niccce!
@AviD It just sucks that we're "smart" people and we can't do basic maths. I feel so stupid right now
 
@Adnan hehe, yeah tell me about it.
 
Basically it's a bit of a difficult calculation, but 1-P(33 or more 1s) would do it.
The problem is that 0.5^33 doesn't account for all the ways you can choose 33 ones...
 
@AntonyVennard Exactly my thought
 
@AntonyVennard yeah, thats what I figured.
need to throw some ! in there...
 
@AviD Aha.. we're not so stupid after all
 
8:01 AM
btw, what is that operation called in english...? :$
 
@AviD Factorial
 
@Adnan dammit, right, I always forget. damn grade school math classes, drilled it in to me too hard.
AHEM. Don't say it.
 
Also, you need to add up all the cases. 33 ones, 34 ones, 35 ones... because you've gone for the "at least" option so you need to nuke each value.
 
@AviD Actually, the only reason I know it in English is because I was using it at work 2 weeks ago, so don't feel bad about it
 
The easiest way to think about it is to say flipping a coin four times, what's the probability I get at least two heads.
you need to take off P(1 head) and P(no heads) from 1.
to get your answer.
 
8:03 AM
@AntonyVennard Wait wait.. we're going off rails here
 
@Adnan yeah, lets switch to Django!
 
@AntonyVennard Here's the question crypto.stackexchange.com/q/8362
 
@Adnan Not quite, we're just reducing the problem to something we can understand... heads/tails at a small level makes it easier to work out how we solve the problem. 1=heads, 0=tails. Same logic :)
160 1s/0s is just too big to think about.
But do it with a string of four, and you can draw pictures.
 
@AntonyVennard That's what I tried here crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/8362/…
 
@AntonyVennard yay! pitchures!
 
8:07 AM
@Antony On a totally different topic, I find your last name very nice. I cannot pronounce it without saying vineyard.
 
@Adnan Ah. I don't think that's the bit that's wrong. I think the bit that D.W. is referring to is the calculation of 0.5^128 = P(128 1s). The probability of any given outcome is 1/(2^160). You'd need to work out how many ways you can choose 128 from 160... so 160C128 * 1/(2^160) in this case.
I don't think that adds up to 0.5^128
Of course, it would have been much more helpful if he'd just said that.
 
@AviD noooooooooooooo :op
 
@AntonyVennard But then he wouldn't be cool
@AntonyVennard There are 4646483508381728485371623544465645 possible ways to choose 128 from 160
@Antony I wrote it in the answer as 4.64648350e+33
 
@Adnan Yep. That div 2^160 = 3.1792530296903830153829444849418038289 E-15
 
@AntonyVennard 3.17925303e-15
@AntonyVennard Aha, so way smaller than I thought it would be
2
 
8:15 AM
@Adnan heehee
 
@Adnan Yeah, but, add up the cases for 128, 129, 130... and so on and it will be bigger. Not much, as 128 is the biggest of them, but it will be bigger than that.
 
@Adnan THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!!!
 
@Adnan THAT'S WHAT... the remainder of this phrase is left as an exercise to the reader.
 
@AntonyVennard sometimes.... sometimes you just need to jump in with both feet. I went for it.
 
@AviD Jesus Christ! What kind of porn do you watch?!
 
8:16 AM
@AviD Yes. There was far too much typing involved in my version.
 
@Adnan umm, port?
ah. oh. AAAAGHH!
 
love this music
very relaxingg
 
@LucasKauffman cool thanks :)
@LucasKauffman I got listening to this yesterday, is good youtube.com/watch?v=mehLx_Fjv_c
 
Morning all. Am sat watching all my tyres being replaced. Incidentally @rorym am 200yds from that odd portal in Bathgate. Have sent relocation message as it is wrong.
 
@AntonyVennard Is it better now? crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/8362/…
 
8:24 AM
@RoryAlsop nice. The first of my submissions got accepted today, so will need to see when they start showing up. planning a run round the livi centre ones today if I get a chance..
 
@RoryMcCune really nice
@RoryAlsop reminds me I still need to replace mine
 
@LucasKauffman Winter tyres?
 
yea
I got an email I should have replaced them before the 27th of april
 
ya know somewhat amazing how laptop speed/virtualization have moved on in the last 5 years. I'm currently running (reasonably well) 6 VMs on a laptop. 3 x windows server 2003, 1 x windows and 2 x linux
 
@RoryMcCune What laptop?
 
8:30 AM
@Adnan Lenovo Thinkpad T430U with 8GB RAM and a Samsung 840 Pro SSD
so ultrabook'ish style and weight
not quite as light as a MacBook Air but heading that way
 
@RoryMcCune :( I feel embarrassed that I'm working on a Compaq 8510w
 
@Adnan advantage of working for myself i guess, if there's money in the bank I don't have to get approval for tech purchases :)
 
Anybody has any idea why Hendrik doesn't come to the chat?
 
@rorym all of my submissions turned up beforw I got the acceptance emails
So worth checking already
 
@Adnan Yep.
 
8:40 AM
@AntonyVennard Yaaaay! I'm smart!
 
@Adnan Haha! If its any consolation, I'm a maths student (part time, anyhow) and I have to think about it quite slowly... muttering to myself and scribbling on paper. Technically I should know this stuff right off, but never mind ;)
@Adnan Haha well, try telling telephone operators what my surname is. "Well okay Mr Bernerd, thank you for your time" "Oh, it's Mr Fennard!"
 
8:57 AM
@AntonyVennard it's like in keeping up appearances
miss Bouquet vs Bucket
 
@LucasKauffman Haha if only. It's more that they can't listen. V. E. N. N. (B E R N?) NOOOO!!!
@LucasKauffman But that is comedy genius :)
 
@Adnan I believe I made about 30 in one day I was particularly bored and no good questions to answer... was probably weekend
 
9:14 AM
@AntonyVennard Thank you, that actually does make me feel better
@AntonyVennard Well, you're in a clubbing age, so that must cause you a problem meeting people.
Although I'd say that clubs aren't good places to meet people.
 
9:37 AM
@Adnan indeed too much noise
 
I guess @Adnan will be claiming the #2 spot for the month today. :)
 
@LucasKauffman That's why I go for only one reason, I don't really have a good time there at all.
@TerryChia #2? Heh! Let's see
 
@Adnan People my age yeah it's a tad difficult. People 30+, no problemo! I go to a few clubs/groups (one being a french speaking group) and I'm usually the youngest there by about 5 years.
 
10:19 AM
0
Q: How to determine the sequence of ordering certificates by browser?

Nancy SmithI did a Mutual Certificate Authentication implementation with OpenSSL and Apache Web Server on CentOS platform. To simple explanation see this diagram: ---------- | Root CA | // Self-Signed Certificate ---------- | ...

can't make my mind about it if it's OT and for SF, or is OK here?
 
@TildalWave SF imo.
VTC-ed.
 
@TildalWave Looks off-topic to me as well
 
@Adnan Done.
 
@TildalWave Ah, overlapping edits
 
@Adnan kornshell one?
 
10:27 AM
@TildalWave Yeah, I clicked save edit seconds after you saved yours
 
@Adnan It's OK you edited quite similar to how I did it too... now for the real question - is it OT? LOL
 
@TildalWave Looks on-topic to me. A bad question, yes, but on-topic.
 
@Adnan damn, no good questions
 
@TildalWave Same thought, we've been dry since last night
 
@Adnan best one I've seen was that conversation between @AviD and @theXs here in DMZ, but it would be difficult to extract a single question out of it... still, nice to see someone doing a first TM with so much thought put into it
 
10:34 AM
@TildalWave Maybe we need a site like this
8
How to Grow Marijuana

Proposed Q&A site for medical marijuana patients, researchers, medical professionals and enthusiasts who are interested in growing their own cannabis flowers.

Closed before being launched.

 
LOL
reminds me of pottcops
"It's for medicinal reasons!" and they grow about 10 pounds a month#
 
@Adnan I would gain rep there way too fast :) (had my own seed lab - in a country where it's perfectly legal, before anyone jumps on it LOL)
I don't smoke it tho, it tires me too much and I can talk bollocks all days long without it anyway
 
2013, first year since 1987 to have 4 different digits.
 
10:49 AM
@Adnan that takes me back to CS1.4 :P
 
@TildalWave yeah. In fact I would (and did) say too much thought. It's way too easy to overthink it, if you havent been through it before.
 
@Adnan Why would that be a problem? Besides a few lines a day of random chatter, it's actually quite productive being here, think of all that you've learned from @ScottPack :)
 
:9451136 LOL
 
@TildalWave What now?
 
@TildalWave well, not everybody has a seed lab as an excuse... ;-)
 
10:52 AM
@TerryChia I'll let @Adnan explain ;) Or, if you can use your 10k to see deleted posts (not sure?) then see the history of his removed ones
 
@TildalWave Nah, I'm referring to the "all that you've learned from @ScottPack" part.
 
@TerryChia Oh, snark. He was referring to the snark, I'm sure.
 
@TerryChia small facts of life, how to have your snark remarks starred, what Amazon is good for, such things
@AviD hehe yes of course
 
Ah right. I forgot his snark expertise.
 
Putting jokes aside, I think we've all learned a lot from each others. It's like an orgy of knowledge, each one us has his turn to learn from someone else. In the end, everybody is happy, except @Terry and @Lucas
 
10:56 AM
@Adnan Orgy of knowledge. Interesting expression.
 
@RoryAlsop well that one that they said would turn up in time has already. Also recharged the livi centre ones and claimed a new one.. BTW is MrsMayhem your missus?
 
@Adnan I'm not sure you know how orgies work.
Or maybe I don't....
 
@AviD @Adnan so is a knowledge orgy like a regular one without the chance of catching a nasty infection?
 
@RoryMcCune and how do you wear a condom on your brain?
 
@AviD Well, to be honest, if we want to project the analogy to Security.SE, I would say we're all being humped by The Bear.
 
10:58 AM
hmm, I think I will use that next time I am in need of snark on the stupid.
 
@RoryMcCune I'm not very experienced in that area.
 
with so many penetration testers around, each day is an orgy :)
 
@RoryMcCune That... umm... I am... not sure that would work.
then again, that guy probably doesnt need one.
 
@TildalWave I hate introducing myself with that title, makes anyone not in the industry snigger
 
11:03 AM
@RoryMcCune "anyone NOT in the industry"....?
 
@AviD ok not in the industry people snigger for the name, people in the industry snigger for the concept that Pen. testing makes sense in it's traditional sense :)
 
@RoryMcCune heh, that too, but also the first one.
 
@RoryMcCune c'mon I bet you had times when you just loved to be able to say that too :P
 
@Adnan 50% of users also active in MSO... Muhahahahaa!
 
@TildalWave possibly, I guess..
 
11:09 AM
@RoryMcCune if you didn't, you probably wouldnt hang around here much.
 
11:42 AM
gcc.godbolt.org/#{%22version%22%3A3%2C%22filterAsm%22%3A{%22labels%22%3At‌​rue%2C%22directives%22%3Atrue%2C%22commentOnly%22%3Atrue}%2C%22compilers%22%3A[{%‌​22source%22%3A%22%23include%20%3Cstdio.h%3E\n\nint%20main%28int%20argc%2C%20char%‌​20*argv[]%29%20{\n%20%20int%20i%3B\n%20%20for%28i%20%3D%200%3B%20i%20%3C%205%3B%2‌​0i%2B%2B%29%20{\n%20%20%20%20printf%28\%22%25d\%22%2C%20i%29%3B\n%20%20}\n}\n\n%2‌​2%2C%22compiler%22%3A%22%2Fusr%2Fbin%2Fclang%2B%2B%22%2C%22options%22%3A%22-O1%22}]}
ok so that was a bit spammy, but paste that into your browser, my favourite find of the year so far.
@Polynomial you'll love it if you haven't seen it already.
 
@lynks yeah, like we would trust you.
2
 
@AviD haha it looks pretty dodgy...
just go to gcc.godbolt.org :P
change -O1 to -O2 to see the magic of loop-unrolling before your very eyes.
 
hmm, its not working, but it does look pretty cool. too lazy and busy to play with it too much right now...
 
@AviD its just instant c -> assembly, as you type, with various gcc options and both assembly syntaxes. nice for shellcode.
 
It's amusing when I get a Linkedin request, think "who the smeg is that" then only when I click the link I known them based on their Sec.SE handle :)
 
11:51 AM
@lynks Nothing happened
 
@Adnan well I had just typed an example out, that is what it gave me from 'permalink' maybe that bit doesnt work. But you can still mess with the tool.
 
@lynks cool find.
Reminds me of that HTML5 interpreter tool.
 

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