The Library - 2015-03-20

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6:37 AM

I try especially hard not to downvote answers to my own questions—and I do believe this is an honest attempt to help—but not only does it not answer my question I think it may actually be misleading. The one sentence mentioning the Greek is considerably less informative than any of the dozen commentaries or study Bibles I have at my disposal. I came here looking for something more, not less. In addition to not demonstrating whether the Greek is reasonably translated one way or another or both (and not even mentioning the ESV), the accusation leveled at the KJV seems completely unjustified. — Caleb ♦ 21 mins ago

6:56 AM

^^^ @Caleb But of course we all know that one word in Greek could never justifiably be translated using two words in English.... ;-)

7:29 AM

@Susan O konuyu açmayın benimle duymak istediğinizden fazla ziyafeti çekersiniz!

@Caleb Which translated means:

> He pulled open the topic you more of what you want to hear me banquet

@Davïd Yup, both of us are. This week's iteration is hardly as big a deal as it was speculated to be and that the media ran with.

@Susan Try: "Don't even start on that subject with me; you'll get an earful more than you bargained for!"

@Caleb Nope, Google translate is better: its 15 words is closer to 9 than your 17.

@Susan Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmisiniz? « Translate that in ~~one word~~ less than 10 words I dare you.

@Caleb Easy:

> You Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmis?

Never doubt the authority of Google Translate.

7:45 AM

@Susan Congratulations. You've pealed off the outer-most suffix. And gotten it wrong (It's a question suffix so it would need to be "Are you(pl)". I'm curious now about how Google Translate came up with that. I'm pretty sure it's never seen that particular arrangement before and I thought it worked exclusively on Bayesian statistical matching—at the phrase level. I didn't know it was doing it inside words.

@Davïd Easy way? Cheat. There are simple "upload an image get text" services available online. Desktop OCR is better but takes quite a bit of fiddling to do well and it really helps if you do some image pre-processing yourself. But the real answer is that there isn't anything out there that can cope with the kind of mixed mode (English/Greek/Hebrew/Etc.) and heavily formatted text in some of those images.

@Susan @Caleb You have to admit, it has a certain je ne sais quoi about it.

@Caleb Did you use any particular service for that bit of OCRing you did in one of my answers?

@Davïd Which translated means:

> whatever

Does this work?:

Translate: je ne sais quoi

(from French) I don't know what

Oh, yes it does.

And much better: 4 words-->4 words. Whew.

@Davïd This one is in my browser history but I'm not sure if that was when I touched your answer or for something else. I have several local options running too (I often use it to get text input for translating as it's easier to go back and forth between equally formatted digital text than between paper and screen) but I think I probably cheated when I did yours. I don't remember where I was.

Using something other than google translate I guess.

Translate: Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmisiniz?

(from English) Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmisiniz?

Not so much.

7:53 AM

Translate: Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmisiniz

(from English) Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmisiniz

ha!

@Caleb Thanks for digging out - I'll play around when a few (more) spare moments materialize.

@Caleb Oops, I just did the same thing. ;-)

Got a busy day of eclipsing up here. B-)

One more and then I’m done.

Translate: O konuyu açmayın benimle duymak istediğinizden fazla ziyafeti çekersiniz!

(from Turkish) Do not open more than you want to hear me talk about it you will have a feast!

Better I think.

How could it not even recognize ş as not English?

@Susan Yup, definitely better. Enough that a little guesswork could reasonably get you there.

7:57 AM

@Caleb Surely not SE’s own deal?

That would be a lot of work.

I had assumed it was Google.

@Susan Naw, their just making an call out to some API and returning the result. Bing's API probably. You could figure it out by trying that phrase in a few online translators.

@Susan Google's translate API is a moving target and a real pain to use as a developer without just shipping your users off to their results page.

@Caleb Oh. I guess I didn’t know anything else existed. Insular.

@DickHarfield The accusation is strongly implied that the KJV inserted a word that "wasn't there" in the original (scare quotes because that's much harder to demonstrate than it is to say), went against the king and didn't like up to their own translation philosophy. The case you make for this from the actual text is completely unconvincing, esp. as you use an interlinear that differs in its choice of root parsing from almost every other one I've ever seen. I don't think you can reasonably expect to answer this question without actually examining the semantic range of meaning of τεκμηρίοις. — Caleb ♦ 32 secs ago

I'm not being too hard on this guy am I?

@Caleb No, but who says that’s not a dative plural noun?

@Caleb Well, a little hard. :)

Unfortunately, that question caught my eye.

8:09 AM

I probably should have mentioned in my question that I already perused an assortment of resources and was looking for more than a rehash of what any study Bible mentions. I guess I assume that should be the default mode on this site for any question but when people persist in answering original language issues without knowing the languages...

@Caleb Yep.

@Davïd But wanting to avoid a severe comment-lashing have been hesitant to post. :P

@Davïd I'll try to tone it down.

@Davïd “Unfortunately”?

@Susan Really - you think it will take five minutes. FIVE MINUTES. And before you know it ... * poof! * Waaaay more than five minutes has gone by. Sigh. The dangers of BH.SE.

3

@Davïd Oh, that. It took me 30 minutes to write the comment.

8:13 AM

:) That's some comfort. Not just me, then?

@Davïd To me, questions are even harder (comparing it to bio answers where I know something) because I am by definition (if it’s a good question) venturing into something I don’t understand. But yes, time.

@Susan Another five minutes (no! really!) and that comment c/sh/ould have been an answer.

@Davïd Not doing it!

There I actually don’t know enough. But I learned how to follow rabbit trails from BDAG...

8:28 AM

@Davïd Does this help a little?

I apologize if my comments have come across as harsh. I'm not trying to rag on you and I don't speak Greek myself. I'm out of my depth here too but I got at least this far using readily available English resources. You've hit a pet peeve of mine though—and that is trying to gloss over translation issues as if words can only have one meaning and one possible corresponding word in another language. I'm a strong advocate for accurately translating Scripture taking as few liberties in diction as possible, but being bilingual I know that this is hard (and more complex than this post indicates). — Caleb ♦ 1 min ago

translate: τεκμήριον

(from Greek) tekmirion

Oh, that’s helpful. Tell me how to pronounce it with modern pronunciation. Great.

translate != transliterate

Apparently it is when the whatever-it-is doesn’t know the word.

@Susan Why didn't it try to fix up Melkisedeklikleştiremediklerimizdenmisiniz I wonder?

@Caleb Because it thought it was “from English."

8:31 AM

Oh, right.

What’s the deal with the asymmetric quotes?? This keeps happening on main and it’s really annoying me.

@Susan You're on a Mac right? What browser are you entering text into (and is the text ever composed elsewhere and pasted into SE)?

@Caleb I understand the problem if it’s coming from elsewhere, but recently it’s been a problem if it’s typed directly into chat or on main. In Safari. Does it look asymmetric to you on “from English” above? The one I just did is symmetrical. The one above has the second one straight. And in that comment on your post it has a curly before “infallible proofs” and straight after it.

Just looked on Windows/IE - same thing.

And thank you for that one in the title.

Definitely no C&P involved there.

@Susan I'm seeing the same thing you are in all cases (because that's what's getting saved/rendered) but how you enter the data must be the problem case. And it might be your computer screwing around with you. I think whether or not they are getting changed on you might have to do with the pretense or absence of single quote marks in the same input box.

Do they show up mismatched in chat in the text-area before you send or just after?

@Caleb Ace. :)

9:00 AM

@Caleb Before I send it. in'ch it’s “njins” "tujkj” “wopkd" "kjkaij” kjkj in’s “ksneow” There they are only straight if I don’t type a space immediately after the closing quote or a letter after the single quote. Otherwise they go in the right direction. Oh, it’s Safari - just checked on a work machine using IE and they all go straight. Much preferred.

And yes, my computer is perpetually screwing around with me. I would love to dump Safari but my employer doesn’t support FF for anything and 30% of the time I can’t access my clipboard in Chrome. (??!)

9:15 AM

@Davïd You mean this one?

The solar eclipse in London is absolutely stunning! #SolarEclipse http://t.co/4pT2kglTxq

Tweeted by NicholasGoodden on March 20, 2015 at 8:45 AM

@Caleb yep - it's dark in Edinburgh - just stepping outside now

@Davïd My view looks almost exactly like the one in that picture. It's so overcast I couldn't tell you where the sun even is.

We'd only get a fringe of it anyway (which friends of mine in other parts of the country are reporting), but I've got nothing.

user image

Also amusing:

Thanx to X-ray technology! :D #SolarEclipse SolarEclipse http://t.co/7ofL5rZX6E

Tweeted by isik5 on March 20, 2015 at 8:49 AM

@Caleb LOL - clouds scudding through here, but with bright breaks

Doesn't seem like much on my pinhole card - but peak is in 11 mins - will check again in a moment.

9:42 AM

@Caleb Just back in - moon passing the other side now - got some fantastic views thanks to just the right amount of cloud cover!

Just the tiniest sliver of sun left 6 mins ago

In reviewing quotation mark morphology on BH, I have determined that 1) everybody else’s browser (except mine and perhaps Matthew Miller's, unless those are copied and pasted) makes straight quotes except in titles; 2) everybody else’s browser makes them go the right direction in titles; and 3) I use entirely too many quotation marks. I need to figure out some other notation for what I’m trying to say.

From a few years back, but classic RT @itsBrendaHall: It has begun.. http://goo.gl/NA6Nim #SolarEclipse http://t.co/7Hk0LxhXGC

Tweeted by Astroguyz on March 20, 2015 at 9:43 AM

pbs.twimg.com/media/CAiAXmJWgAA7KCT.jpg:large

@Susan Re ③, there are lots of available glyphs to choose from.

Quotation marks, also called quotes, quote marks, quotemarks, speech marks and inverted commas, are punctuation marks used in pairs in various writing systems to set off direct speech, a quotation, or a phrase. The pair consists of an opening quotation mark and a closing quotation mark, which may or may not be the same character. Quotation marks have a variety of forms in different languages and in different media. == §English and typical usage == In English writing, quotation marks are placed in pairs around a word or phrase to indicate: Quotation or direct speech: Carol said "go ahead" when...

My favorite addition to the normal repertoire of quotation devices are guillemets.

@Susan Re ①, part of this has to do with SE: they are post-processing and making pretty quotes but only if ALL the quotes are straight ones. As soon as your browser sends a curly one it stops parsing and goes with what you send—which is were your straights are coming from too. ② is because they are either sending all straights already (likely most of them) or all curly (likely only in the case of copy paste from word processor).

10:36 AM

Here is a solution for you @Susan: change your keyboard layout so that the quotation mark key produces the characters for the Aegean numbers 1 (𐄇) and 2 (𐄈). I bet both Safari and SE would no longer think to mess with your glyphs. Of course it might not give you glyphs at all, but that would at least be a different problem.

10:47 AM

@Caleb - OK - I think it's an answer....

Ha - tells you how long I was mired in (a) links, and (b) eclipsing -- two answers came along together (well, Jonathan's submitted well before mine - presumably he had too much cloud to be bothered with eclipsing!).

Monty Python's Flying Circus - The 1972 Eclipse of the Sun

1 hour later…

12:09 PM

@aksub I just got around to tweaking that answer. Hope it clarifies!

12:47 PM

@JonEricson I take it that the new CSS/LESS doesn't "quieten" answers with >= 3 DVs? (I actually liked that "feature". Sent a useful signal.)

1:19 PM

Fun fact for those of you following my Acts question. The modern Turkish renditions are all pretty innocuous, but the old Ottoman Turkish rendition is awesome.

The very first Turkish translation ever has the passage in question (yes that is the original translator Ali Bey's (secretary's) handwritten copy circa 1665) rendered as "niçe sahîh muʿcizâtlar" (rough transliteration).

After "many/plentiful" he uses a modifier "sound/authentic", but more interesting is his choice of word for τεκμήριον. He employs a compound that breaks down to something like "event that doesn't leave one wondering/helpless", a combination that later evolved into a single word in modern Turkish "mücize" which has come to mean simply "miracle".

1:38 PM

@Davïd I'm not sure what has been more distracting today: your eclipse, Monty Python, The Internet Archive rabbit trail you sent me on or Ottoman Turkish Bibles of past centuries (here is another Acts 1 excerpt from the early 19th century). In any case thanks for the answer!

1:58 PM

Then again, there are the people for whom it just doesn't matter how you translate that, or whether the statement was accurate…

2:41 PM

@Caleb That’s a splendid idea, but....I think we have a disconnect wherein you don’t quite realize how superficially I interact with my computer....how am I supposed to change [my] keyboard layout? Don’t feel compelled to answer that. The explanation is helpful at any rate.

3:01 PM

Translate: niçe sahîh muʿcizâtlar

(from French) Nice Saheeh muʿcizatlar

Ever helpful.

@Caleb «« Ooooh, that link gave me step-by-step instructions and it worked! »»

@Davïd That shouldn't have changed. But it has. :-( Could you write up a quick meta question about it? (Either meta.BH or MSE. Your call.)

@Susan Did you seriously think it if chokes on modern Turkish that it would cope with Ottoman Turkish, however transliterated? The fact that it actually god one word right is almost pure accident (the root for sahîh is indeed related to the Arabic name Saheeh!).

@Caleb No. But the link didn’t work for me, so I was exploring what I could.

@Susan Which link?

@Caleb Neither of the cool ones. This message and this one.

3:13 PM

user image

user image

The SE chat-bot seems to be able to find them. Not sure what the issue would be.

user image

Still.

@Susan How about now? I uploaded them to Imgur where all SE images are instead of direct linking of that site.

@Caleb Working!

@Caleb Wait, I’m feeling dumb - is that reading right to left?

@Susan Yes. The language is old Turkish but the writing system is a modified Arabic script, so start at the top right ;-) The verses are in the margin, although the 1819 text is justified instead of verse-per-line and has *'s in the text where the actual verse starts is.

> ki onlara siyâset çekdiḡinden soŋra niçe sahîh muʿcizât lar ile hem onlardan kırk gün melekût-ullah a müteʿallik tekellüm ėderiken müşâhede olundu

That's a full transliteration of verse 3, so you should be able to find your way from there ;-)

(This is for the 1665 Ali Bey translation, not the later one which is quite a bit different.)

> ve ol dahi siyâset çekdiḡinden soŋra kırk gün ȯnlara zâhir olup ve melekût-ullah a müteʿallik nesneleri tekellüm ėdip âsâr-ı kesîre ile ȯnlara kendỉsini diri gösterdi

There's the 1819 one.

3:28 PM

@Caleb Good, that explains why it looks like Arabic. Oh wow, looks like it’s been written all sorts of ways:

> The first novel to be written in the Ottoman Empire was Akabi (1851), written in the Armenian script by Vartan Pasha.....The Greek alphabet and the Rashi script of Hebrew were used by Greeks and Jews for Ottoman.

@Susan Aye. And there are multiple systems for transliterating between them. It's a three ring circus actually and has been for centuries.

And the switch from the Arabic based script to a Latin alphabet happen in the last 100 years. That caused a tidal wave of changes in usage as in less than a single generation the entire Turkish speaking population got cut off from the vast majority of literature in their own language.

Never mind the alphabet problem and the fact that these Ottoman Bible's are completely unintelligible to folks today, most people have the same sort of difficulties with the first Bible in modern Turkish (1941) as you would with the 1560 Geneva Bible @Davïd linked to.

Short history or long history.

@Susan See at least the table of contents for the long history.

4:19 PM

@Susan Ha, ha.

@Caleb Thanks, will look at it.

@Davïd Does that count as a hapax question in your book?

4:43 PM

0

Q: New SO/SE redesign does not "quieten" answers with worse that -3 net DV's

I have noticed a change with the new-look SO/SE that I wasn't expecting. It used to be the case that answers with >= three DVs (net) would be "quietened", faded out. I have always thought this sent a useful signal about the value of those answers. It appears that this is no longer the case (exam...

@JonEricson ^^^^ Hope I worded that satisfactorily! (Typo in title fixed.)

@Susan Nope. :)

@Davïd Because of LXX usages? Or just in general too many? (Or I’m missing something in the NT...)

@Davïd Figures. It was a duplicate. I'll ping our designers.

5:06 PM

@Davïd Next build should fix this.

3 hours later…

7:54 PM

@Davïd woah, status-completed already! (Presumably related to @JonEricson's intervention....that was fast!)

@Susan It's not what you know; it's who you know...

But Jin was about to push out the change when I contacted him.

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