<span class='verse' id='17'><span class='verseNo'>17</span>&#160;<span class='noteRef'>t</span>  כָּל־ הַחַיָּ֨ה אֲשֶֽׁר־ אִתְּךָ֜ מִכָּל־ בָּשָׂ֗ר בָּע֧וֹף וּבַבְּהֵמָ֛ה וּבְכָל־ הָרֶ֛מֶשׂ הָרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־ הָאָ֖רֶץהוצאהַיְצֵ֣א אִתָּ֑ךְ וְשָֽׁרְצ֣וּ בָאָ֔רֶץ וּפָר֥וּ וְרָב֖וּ עַל־ הָאָֽרֶץ׃</span>

^^^ The qere and the ketiv appears concatenated in And Bible.

<span class="hebrewtext"> <span class="citation" id="Gen.8:17">8:17</span>כָּל־הַחַיָּ֨ה אֲשֶֽׁר־אִתְּךָ֜ מִכָּל־בָּשָׂ֗ר בָּע֧וֹף וּבַבְּהֵמָ֛ה וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֛מֶשׂ הָרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָ֖רֶץ <span class="ketiv">הוצא </span><span class="qere">הַיְצֵ֣א </span>אִתָּ֑ךְ וְשָֽׁרְצ֣וּ בָאָ֔רֶץ וּפָר֥וּ וְרָב֖וּ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ </span>

^^^ Very different to tanach.us.

^^^ I did an application that includes a HTML5 engine. It does not use native engine.

What is displayed in the capture is the site tanach.us (local copy).

By the way, it is a site very slow. Apparently processes XML in each click. Processing XML is a time consuming process.

@Davïd If you are interested in that test application, you can download it from here.

@PaulVargas Wow! Have you been up all night, Paul? Does the *.apk file include the Tanach.us text files?

@PaulVargas Yes, I've noticed that slow response time, too. I sometimes use the "HTML" links (in the little set of options in the bottom right of the page when viewing a passage) and bookmark that if I'm coming back to it.

@Davïd Yes!

@PaulVargas "Yes" to both? (Up all night and text files included?) ;)

@Davïd Humm... I think that the HTML links is not included in the local site.

@PaulVargas I'll go ahead and install it (assuming I can work out how!) and let you know how it goes.

@Davïd TTYL

@PaulVargas bfn - and thanks!

or,

or "verses" view (instead of "chapter"):

@PaulVargas Just brilliant! :) It isn't even that slow, really. Great to have a nice, off-line Tanakh to read. Thanks so much, Paul! Muchas Gracias por esta maravillosa aplicación!

@Davïd I get the sense that we're not really communicating.... I just meant, if it's going to be vowelless and stand for the root (which I suppose it needs to here since it encompasses uses of two different stems), why would it also have a dagesh? If it's going to be vowelless and stand for the qal per 3ms, similarly. (On roots with dots: are there a few 3-hey that are actually 3-hey + mappiq? I feel like I saw this somewhere, but I don't have a computer at the moment to figure it out.)

No, it wasn't a real question. Though perhaps if I knew more about the topic I'd be doing a better job communicating. (But as to morphology: isn't the dagesh in the second radical only present (in qal/hiphil) where the nun has assimilated?)

@Susan Yes, but . . .

@Susan . . . now I see the issue!! (Oh, that we had some decent, LEGIBLE CSS for Hebrew!!) That was MY BAD. The nun-pe-lamed was supposed to appear without any pointing, and I didn't see that there was a dagesh as a relic of something I copied/pasted. So sorry about that!

@Davïd How do you get that last view?

@Davïd Was that in response to the mappiq question? I was wondering if there was a subset like the "real" (= historic) 1-yods. I've always been curious: I learned "3-hey/1-yod used to be 3-yod/1-waw" -- does anybody said when "used to be" was? Is that pre-Hebrew? Is there like a year estimate, or is this in some realm outside absolute dating?

@PaulVargas To revert, choose same drop-down, which will now show "Chapter view".

@Susan "Was that in response to the mappiq question?" No, it was in response to "I get the sense that we're not really communicating...." How appropriate!

@Susan More like "1-yod used to be 1-waw except some (7) original 1-yod", and "3-hey used to be either 3-yod or 3-waw". I don't know of any "historic" 3-hey roots signalled with mappiq, but that doesn't mean there aren't any!

@Susan Probably before 1000 BCE, anyway, since this is roughly (roughly) the date of our oldest prose epigraphs in Hebrew. And, if memory serves, these orthographic changes are already present from the moment we can see them in Hebrew texts. Also, some appeal to Ugaritic (before 1100, then) where many of the same phenomena are also visible.

Sandra Gogel, A Grammar of Epigraphic Hebrew is probably what we want here, although there might be something relevant buried somewhere in EHLL.

@Davïd Thanks. I just recently figured out that 3-waw was also an option, but I had already forgotten...

I guess that didn't really occur to me because I kind of see all yod and waw as interchangeable.... the middle ones occasionally bop back and forth too, don't they?

@Davïd Darn, not even a decent table of contents.

@Susan Sadly not, and no "look inside" on Amazon either.

@Susan Although here's a decent review in Spanish... @PaulVargas

@Susan + many, many more reviews (see Rainey's esp.).

@Davïd Unicode Text Analyzer to see those relics. ;)

@PaulVargas That, or this Te'ammim Analyzer Apparatus to see those relics. :/

@Davïd For some reason I'm having trouble searching with the mappiq, but I found the word I was thinking of which is גבהּ, which looks not to take most of the usual 3-hey endings. The ה there is very persistent.

938 days ago?!

Ah, here we go, J-M:

> Mappiq also occurs in the following roots with a consonantal ה: ‏גבהּ‎ to be high, ‏מהמהּ (‏הִתְמַהְמַהּ‎) to hesitate, ‏נגהּ to shine, תמהּ to be surprised.

Some RTL issues with the copy/paste there. It doesn't say whether that has anything to do with the historical root.

@Susan Ah, wow - nicely done! So there are four of them. (מהמהּ comes up nicely in the Joseph story, I now recall!) More info than the equivalent GKC entry.

@Susan RTL must be the colon throwing it off for some reason. But I would think that "consonantal ה" is pretty much saying that it's "historical"/original. The typical sign of something else as the historical root is when that other letter shows up with suffixes in place. But here, as you note, he is retained.

@Davïd Yeah ("nicely"), that sentence always makes me laugh. Presumably it was an extant expression and not something made up for the occasion, but it's still funny that it's there.

I'm trying, and failing, to think of English analogy -- but it's like adding a pronominal suffix to "segolate" nouns: gets you the "historical" form (melek + sfx = malkah "her king", so putative "historical" form = *malk.

@Susan "that sentence" being "Nicely done"? (Chat and comments proving a bit frustrating today!)

@Davïd Oops, nicely #2. "comes up nicely" ;-)

@Susan :-o I reckon I might need more (or less) coffee..... ;)

@Susan Ah, and "that sentence" being that of Gen 43:10! Gotcha.

(Just a teensy bit slow today!)

@Davïd What I still can't get my head around is why holem-waw shows up (for waw > yod in the first root position) if at that time ("that time") in the language there were no vowel letters. Somehow, waw was still associated with /o/, I guess?

@Susan RTL is a pain. But one can play with some punctuation. +@Davïd

@Susan Wish I had Gogel handy. She has a concordance of the epigraphic texts as an appendix - would be so easy to check.

@Susan I believe the typical explanation is that the holem-waw we see now is a collapsed dipthong from original aw (or the like!), so waw in that case wasn't vowel letter. But don't hold me to that. ;)

@PaulVargas @Susan I feel like the odd one out here. I ought to get me one of them "identicon" things....

^^^^ Apparently it would look like that. Can't say I find it too attractive. :/

@Susan I wonder if I can ask you something.

Something related to human physiology. I think so!

Yesterday I ate a very sweetened bread for dinner and I hardly slept. Does the sugar affect the sleep?

@PaulVargas Good question! I'd be interested in @Susan's take on this and this, too. :)

@Davïd By the way, do you know a list with the differences of versificación between the WLC and the KJV/ESV?

@PaulVargas Hmmm.... I'm not sure if this will be any help.

@PaulVargas Or this.

@PaulVargas Or this.

Sorry. :/ Not coming up with much more. You would think this would be somewhere.

@Davïd In fact, I thought, "This would be somewhere." (Well, some very similar, but in Spanish.)

@PaulVargas Probably not. (Coffee, on the other hand....) It just so happens that I wrote an answer -- well, more like an anti-answer -- on a similar question.

@Davïd I believe @Caleb once mentioned that he had a list. @PaulVargas

@PaulVargas IIRC it was a later conversation that involved a Turkish parallel Caleb was making. I think the Hebrew font was under discussion and I noted that the versification was off. That's what I was thinking of anyway.

@Davïd I just learned monophthongization.

@PaulVargas That would be it.

@PaulVargas Hope you can find it - I poked around in Bibleworks's verse map files, but can't work out the format, or where they come from.

@Susan If you have any thoughts on those two articles I linked, would love to hear your thoughts! (One of them is called a "Long Read" for a reason, though!).

Day's over here, though - bfn.

@Susan I found this article. What do you think? :)

@PaulVargas The adverse impact of sleep deprivation on various metabolic parameters is very well established. Knutson is also qualified to talk about it.

(I love PubMed Central, BTW.)