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3:00 AM
@LeeWoofenden has now also provided an excellent answer to the Onan question:
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A: What was Onan's sin?

Lee WoofendenOnan's sin was entirely related to his refusal to perform his levirate duty. Quickly about the other three: Coitus interruptus is not masturbation. It is a (very unreliable) method of birth control. Onan was attempting not to get Tamar pregnant because he did not want to provide an heir for hi...

3+ years without a good answer and now two in the same day. :)
 
 
5 hours later…
7:49 AM
@Susan Thanks — I've made the edit I wanted to make and cast my reopen vote (weird that I can do that, but whatever)
 
 
11 hours later…
6:57 PM
@WadCheber As promised, here is my first piece on the question of Jewish views of the Messiah pre-Christianity:
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Q: What evidence is there that Isaiah 53 was viewed as a Messianic prophecy in pre-Christian times?

ThaddeusBThe modern Jewish interpretation of the so-called suffering servant song of Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is that it is a prophecy referring to the nation of Israel, not the Messiah. As such, it is sometimes suggested that Christians invented the idea that this is a Messianic prophecy. What evidence is th...

This is an emotionally charged subject and both Christians and Jews tend to treat the evidence unfairly. Christians tend to cites Rabbis indiscriminately, thus quoting a bunch of people with no importance to the development of Jewish thought, and claim Jews "always" viewed the passage as Messianic until the 11th century. Jews tend to state authoritative Rabbis have always viewed the passage as referring to the nation of Israel, ignoring the lack of hard data to support this view.
I think I have treated the data on this passage as fairly as reasonably possible. ... This is only one part of the equation that shows Christians did not invent their idea of the Messiah out of nowhere, that is that there was disagreement within Judaism about what to expect before Jesus came along. I plan to continue to work on exploring this idea, but these pieces are hard work, so don't expect them to appear rapidly. :)
 
 
2 hours later…
8:35 PM
@ThaddeusB Awesome! Give me a couple of hours to go through this and process it.
 
9:11 PM
@ThaddeusB That's an impressive essay! I am puzzled, though, as none of the sources you discuss are actually pre-Christian. The Isaiah Targum developed between the 1st and 4th Centuries AD, not as early as you suggest. The rest is that (NT) or later. One source you might have used -- the Septuagint -- is missing!
So I'm a bit baffled by the mis-fit between a very full and helpful answer -- but to a different question, not about "pre-Christian times"! Or ... what am I missing?!
 
@ThaddeusB I asked my friends on Mi Yodeya to weigh in, but they won't be around until tonight. Shabbos.
 
@Davïd The Septuagint translation here is definitely on the literal side of things - the translators did sometimes "smuggle" Messianic interpretations into the LXX, but not here. The LXX does support the singular (e.g. "a man") interpretation & if I was arguing about what the correct interpretation was, I would mention that. Do you think it would be worthwhile adding just to show it doesn't support the plural (e.g. "nation of Israel") view?
On the Targum, I did see some that said it could be 1st century BC. The consensus seems to be 2nd century AD, which I would equate with the "shortly after" Jesus that I said was the most likely date.
You are, of course, correct that none of the data technically predates Christianity. The idea is to deduce from the data we do have what the view in NT times was likely to be. My basic argument is that Messianic views were unlikely to be read into the text in response of Christianity, and thus the hypothesis that some form of such interpretations predates Christianity better explains the data than the hypothesis that Christians created an entirely novel reading here.
 
9:28 PM
@ThaddeusB Where are you picking up the "consensus"? Bruce Chilton's edition and his several studies with it takes a very different view, and I don't know anyone who would put it BC.
@ThaddeusB But there is plenty of evidence for pre-Christian Jewish "messianism" -- not sure why you've decided to nail this discussion to Isaiah 53 where the evidence is slender or non-existent, rather than casting your net more widely.
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@ThaddeusB LXX Isaiah is a bit of a mine-field. It would be worth reading around in Troxel's stuff.
@ThaddeusB I'm not sure if it would help your case, but this article would be worth consulting in any case, I would think, given your interest.
 
@Davïd I'm not an expert on the Targum's date by any means - just going by what I found online which mostly seemed to say 2nd century. Anyway, I've adjusted that line.
@Davïd A broader view is next on my agenda - I chose to start with Isaiah 53 solely because the "suffering servant" specifically come up in my conversation with @WadCheber that prompted me to start writing on Messianic expectations. I do agree that there is better evidence for (as an example) the "now & later fulfillment" view in Jewish Apocrypha that clearly predate Christianity
 
9:43 PM
@ThaddeusB :) Not quite accurately, though - the "consensus" as I understand it is that there are signs of development from the 1st to the 4th C's when it "stabilized", not that it was written at one go in one of three possible periods.
Have a look at this review, the first page of which unpacks this a bit.
 
@Davïd How about "There is a general consensus that the Targum Jonathan, also known as the Targum Isaiah, began to be developed roughly contemporaneously with the time of Jesus. It probably received the bulk of its editing during the 2nd century, and was completed (standardized) by the forth century. " (I'll look at that paper in a minute)
 
@ThaddeusB If you can get a hold of this chapter (and the book it's part of) you would find much of interest from fairly top scholars.
@ThaddeusB That captures it much better. You'll be able to refine (if you think it's needed) once you have a look at the article itself.
Getting late for me - need to go. Hope this has helped - that's a big job you've taken on!
 
@Davïd Yes, helpful. If you have further comments to refine my argument later, please do share.
 

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