The Library

3:26 AM

@Susan The context is the same. I had the same impression when I 1st visited this site; if it wasn't for Jack Douglas, I wouldn't be here. The DV/VtC's(IMO) should be saved for real stinkers, especially with new users who mostly come from forums and have no clue as to how we work. For a veteran user with plenty of rep, a DV/VtC is no big deal; to a new, inexperienced user, the consequences are devastating, demoralizing and the equivalent to being slapped in the face as you knock on the door.

Tau

3:38 AM

@Susan To "Coach" a New User, especially with a worthwhile question that needs a little tweaking, yes. To assume everyone who knocks on the door is an 'expert' and therefore fair game to whatever criticism you may have, not only robs the site of potential users, but casts a negative 'pall' over it, as they communicate to other potential users ",...don't go there, they're too elitist".

Susan

5:38 AM

@Tau You’re of course welcome to coach and tweak yourself. You did provide some coaching there, which she didn’t respond to. If you felt the question was worth it, you could edit it yourself and vote to re-open.

There’s really nothing in those comments that is critical of the OP (fdb was responding to you :-) ), and nothing like that deleted either, so I’m not sure why she was upset other than the requirement that the question be made on topic in order to remain open / be re-opened, which I don’t see as negotiable.

@Caleb (cont.) Now, about the 2nd part of your question: Yes, there is room for linguistics questions and may there always be so, just as there are questions concerning quantum physics formulas surrounding string theory on the physics site. How many people will participate in those? Try this: create a "Site Directive" that says, "We only want those who are able to write in Greek/Hebrew in the Original Languages to post here." I'll leave, as well as many others. Then you will wear yourselves out trying to find 'Academics' who are otherwise too busy with their 'required' writing to participate. — Tau Jan 29 at 7:14

I really appreciate your motivations here, but I think you’ve got the wrong idea of where some of us are coming from.

3

Speaking for myself, an interest in the Hebrew/Greek text is not orthogonal to and certainly not in conflict with your interest in understanding the text - it’s actually the same thing. This has nothing to do with elitism (or atheism! I have no idea how that ended up in the discussion.). Truth be told, my own opinion is that most questions that start from the text would be best answered starting from the language in which it was written.

But I don’t say that to invoke some “expertise principle”; rather, when I read a question that’s often the best way I can think of for an answer to approach it. Of course, some questions can be reasonably answered entirely in translation, and that’s fine.

(I personally happen to also really enjoy learning those languages, but that’s not what this is about, and I note that we have closed a good number of questions about the languages themselves recently as off-topic.)

So I’m not sure I understand:

@All People Vote With Their Feet, "Wow,I didn't realize it was so elitist with so many rules. I withdraw my question. – Laura J. Davis." Case in Point: The Atheists we are so inclusive about are not flocking to our site, however, Christians who take the Bible Seriously are, and are being re-buffed. So let's remain 'elitist' and forget about asking these sorts of questions. — Tau 15 hours ago

There’s no rebuff I see in your case-in-point. There are just people (the Christian/atheist dichotomy seems totally irrelevant to me here) who take the bible seriously trying to create an environment where people who have questions that are within our scope can get good answers.

Paul Vargas

6:15 AM

Is Scripture always right? Daniel #Biblestudy now available! http://tinyurl.com/leqkkd4

Tweeted by LauraJeanDavis on January 28, 2015 at 9:42 PM

Susan

7:09 AM

Laura, I'm sorry you felt like you were dragged through the mud. That was not anybody's intention. Tau in particular has been trying to help make this a question that can be addressed productively here. Just to clarify, this is a site run by a secular company, and we encourage all who take the bible seriously to participate, not only Christians. This post explains a bit more. [cont] — Susan ♦ 2 mins ago

TRiG

11:42 AM

10

Q: What are we generally looking for in answers?

I am interested in learning what users of this site look for and appreciate in an answer. On this site, what are the characteristics of a good answer? (Examples of exceptionally good answers, and what makes them so exceptional, are welcome!) What are the characteristics of a bad answer on this ...

TRiG

12:00 PM

@Susan Yeah. This is an overtly Christian site which pretends to be religiously neutral. It promises neutrality, while often being hostile to non-Christians. It is, in fact, a failed experiment, and should be closed.

2

Tau

1:11 PM

@Susan Part of the success of our site is learning how to function within our Site Directives; it keeps us from being just like the 'free for all forums', which despite their good intentions, degenerate into innuendo and name calling. I 'could' have edited her post; but when I've done so in the past(with the exception of spelling/grammar/punctuation) I have 'changed' what they are asking for, and have felt that they(not me) should adjust the direction of their inquiry.

@Susan (cont.) That being said, it's my contention that 'veteran users'(those that understand site directives, are fluent with asking/answering questions, and have the reputation to provide(or absorb) feedback should 'coach' new users, without the heavy hammer of DV's/VtC's(especially when you have a "1" reputation). If they respond, great: you've perhaps won a continuing user who will improve with time. If not, then you've made your best attempt, and move on.

Tau

1:37 PM

@Susan I save my "DV's" and "VtC's" for trolls, curmudgeons, and those who simply want a soapbox, and not engage in the process. I DO believe we need to give new users a 'pass'(unless they demonstrate the above mentioned behaviors) and allow them to have a 'feel' for how we work. This is what I felt about the OP in question, and any others like her; give them an opportunity to learn/adjust to the protocol, and if they display an interest and respond, well done! If not, move on.

Tau

2:09 PM

@TRiG Hi TRIG. I'm not sure what you mean by "overtly Christian site". Our "Site Directives" explicitly prohibit proselytizing, and 'prescriptive application' of the text. We have a number of Jewish contributors, some with significant reputations. However, we take the Bible seriously; and apparently Christians take the Bible seriously, and Jews take the Hebrew Bible very seriously. Atheists, Agnostics, Rastafarians, Occultists, New Agers, Buddhists, Hindus, and the like generally don't.

Susan

@Tau Now you're talking about site mechanics, where I defer to the wisdom of MSE.

@TRiG Thank you for your opinion. :-)

Tau

@TRiG (cont.) These groups are more than willing to participate on this site-a few have. But if they don't take the Bible seriously, then there's not much to say, and most leave and go to wherever they find agreement. It seems Christians stay, and help build this site into what is was meant to accomplish; if that's what you mean by "Christian site", then it's because of the identity of the participants, and not the Site Directives.

Caleb

@TRiG "Allows for participation from diverse and sometimes opposing religious backgrounds" is not at all the same thing as "religiously neutral". I don't know who you thing is pretending to be neutral around here but most of us are pretty blatant in our belief that such a thing is not possible anyway.

@Davïd See my comments on said question. I pretty much agree, the only problem with closing was picking which of several possibly valid close reasons to go with. I'd seen the question earlier too but hadn't had time to give it a decent amount of thought. As I've considered it though I couldn't come up with any way that would work here and it would need modification to work on C.SE.

Paul Vargas

4:50 PM

Hi, @swasheck

swasheck

hi

Paul Vargas

@swasheck Does your database ( ancient Greek's texts) have a public endpoint?

swasheck

@PaulVargas it doesnt. no funding.

maybe one day

Paul Vargas

@swasheck I think there are some free options. MySQL?

swasheck

@PaulVargas it's less about the freeness of the platform and more about the freeness of the hosting :)

Caleb

5:03 PM

@swasheck What is this you're looking for hosting for?

Paul Vargas

@swasheck I have 3 GB of free hosting with OpenShift. Only MySQL or PostgreSQL.

swasheck

@Caleb @PaulVargas was asking about a greek database that i have and whether or not it had a public endpoint

@PaulVargas is that special, or is that available to everyone?

Caleb

I have quite an assortment of servers, some of them at near idle much of the time and don't mind hosting some types of things as a favour especially if it's a ministry related resource that I see any point in.

Paul Vargas

@swasheck :-)

@swasheck Yes, for everyone.

Caleb

@swasheck What sort of database and what sort of front-end? If it happens to be setup for any tech that I have on hand anyway...

swasheck

5:08 PM

@Caleb presently it's sql server, which i use for doing professional demonstrations. it can be run on a sql 2014 express edition. i used to have it as postgresql, though.

there is no front-end, at this point :)

@PaulVargas interesting. i have an openshift account. didnt realize there was that much storage available

i have a presentation this weekend, but maybe i'll do the conversion work and set up an openshift site/front-end/something

@Caleb i appreciate that offer. let's see. not sure it'd be "ministry-related" though

Paul Vargas

@swasheck The 3 basic small gears. :-)

Caleb

@swasheck I have PostgreSQL and MariaDB servers around, but the raw SQL ports are not open except on special request on a per IP basis (those ports are a pretty high DOS risk surface and most of my customers don't need it), so there would have to be a front end of some kind to be useful on any of my machines.

swasheck

@Caleb sure. that makes sense. i was just saying that there was currently no front-end.

@PaulVargas are you a programmer?

Paul Vargas

Yes, I am.

Mainly in Java.

@swasheck What about you?

swasheck

hm. ok. and it looks like @Caleb is a PHP person. @PaulVargas i'm a dba (professionally as a sql server dba), but i have a personal love/fascination with postgresql. i wouldnt touch mysql with a 10-foot pole.

my primary programming "experience" is in python with a touch of go (just to learn it).

also, the schema in which i have the database is specific to my use-case (normalized. no full-text search). postgres would open up some interesting options. i'll see what i can do. i didnt realize it would be as much of a topic of interest

Paul Vargas

5:18 PM

@swasheck Dan is a Python person.

swasheck

also ... much of it has been parsed using an older version of tauber's work which i notice is taking a lot of updates through github these days

@PaulVargas indeed.

Caleb

@swasheck Personally I always use at least 11' poles! But sadly I have to touch it. MariaDB is quite a bit saner to admin these days than MySQL ever used to be.

swasheck

@Caleb fair enough. better safe than sorry. i'd be willing to do the work to get it to postgres but if anyone wants mysql (or derivatives), they'd be on their own :)

Caleb

@swasheck PHP/Python/Perl/Javascript plus a smattering of Lua, Ruby, etc. And I'd take an axe to anything Java based before I used a pole of any length.

swasheck

so ... here's the deal. if we'd like to do this, i'd be happy to port the data/schema to postgres (most recent version) and set up the structures and the fts indexes. if you guys want to take a crack at an API or a public front-end or whatever, i'd leave that in your capable hands

Paul Vargas

5:25 PM

@swasheck That's great.

swasheck

does jack ever show up in here anymore?

Paul Vargas

@swasheck Yes, but in these last days, I have not seen him.

Caleb

@swasheck Yup. He's on the main site every day and I see him in chat now periodically. He just dropped through a little bit ago.

swasheck

ah cool. ok. he's quite knowledgeable in postgres and may be able to help me

Bruce Alderman

7:06 PM

@Caleb Maybe we're using the terminology differently, but speaking of the site itself, "allows for participation from diverse and sometimes opposing religious backgrounds" should be the same thing as "religiously neutral." That doesn't mean the participants are neutral; it means the site as a whole should be equally welcoming to participants regardless of their background.

2

We've lost a lot of Jewish participants who perceive this as a site where their voices are not as welcome as others. I think that's a serious problem for the site.

2

Bruce Alderman

10:48 PM

@Tau A couple quick examples of how this is an overtly Christian site: The question Who is the man in Daniel's vision in Daniel 10? has three answers, all of which discuss whether the man could be Jesus. Granted, the question was migrated from Christianity.SE, but two of the three answers were made after the migration.

Then there's this question asking how midrash could be applied to Christian studies.

And then there's Can Hosea 6:1-3 be interpreted as a prophecy of Jesus' resurrection? (which has been closed but not deleted) seeking to find Jesus in the Hebrew Bible.

Or take this answer, which explicitly argues for Christianity over Judaism. The answer has been downvoted but not deleted.

Or this answer, bring Jesus and Christianity into the discussion of a Hebrew Bible text, when the question specifically focuses on Jews and Israel.

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