Hmm.

What kind of apps would you want?

I mean, something not as broadly scoped as a Photoshop replacement, of course.

The biggest problem is that most of what I want exists, but in the PS plug-in world. And the best of them actually need PS, not just an 8BA/8BF-"compatible" environment.

It's mostly about portraiture (and Portraiture), and the ability to use good tools in a layered, frequency-separated context. Doing "the same thing" in the GIMP or PSP feels like trying to forge tungsten in the early Bronze age.

Take it as read that I'm not an average use case :)

@StanRogers I gocha. Sorry for the late reply...got pulled away.

Yeah, this whole subscription crap is really annoying. I think Adobe WILL feel the pain when millions of people who upgraded every couple years don't pay for their service. It may not have been consistent revenue, but it has to amount to a lot of revenue. I am hoping that will force their hand, and require a cheaper per-app subscription, or maybe $20/mo "mini cloud suites", where you get a couple apps for different types of work...Photographers CC, Designers CC, Proofers CC, whatever.

@dpollitt I see the question (and the answers) as one form of online photo-galleries. Web presentation, even if for a limited audience only, seems to be on topic here. How else can a photographer make his 360 degree panorama viewable online in a user-friendly way?

I think it has had enough time to receive a counter-suggestion, and when none came, I have done the re-tagging now. I don't see the number of up-votes and down-votes, not enough of rep yet, so I only see the positive number of 4 upvotes on the answer and 6 upvotes on the question.

@jrista It's bad for businesses too though. If you're stuck subscribing to it, if they decide to jack up the price, your stuck if you want to be able to keep working on your projects. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so overpriced. The mis-advertising that is even being done in articles about it is remarkable to me

since 2003 there have been 6 major versions, that's one major version every 2 years

to upgrade every version is only $800 or so historically

and to upgrade every 2 is only $1200 to $1400 historically

so they are now charging 50% more and not giving an actual license

if it was 50% cheaper, I wouldn't so much have a problem as it would reflect the lower value of a rental to a purchase

there argument is the equivalent of saying, hey, you buy a $20,000 car every 5 years, so instead of buying a car and having something you can use (and possibly sell for most of what you paid for it) we'll just charge you $6000 a year and give you a new car every year until you stop paying us at which point we take your car

and seeing as you could sell that 20,000 car for probably 10,000, it was really only $2000 a year before

not sure how so many people don't understand the difference in value between owning a license versus renting one

but then again, people are really REALLY bad at math

so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised

Oh, people are better at the math than you think.

Adobe WILL get some massive backlash for this. And when it hurts them in their pocketbook, they'll change.

I don't know... is there really much of a legit second-hand market for Adobe CS software?

@TZHX It's an imperfect analogy. I'm more referring to the notion that if I am using the software for business today then it is easy to pay for the software, but when I stop using it for business and can't afford to always upgrade, I don't want to lose access to my work

having something you own is inherently more valuable than renting something

even if there isn't much of a second hand market

the only reason not to buy is if you can rent for cheaper enough to make it worth not owning

for example, I currently rent an apartment because I am not sure if I will be in the area in a year and if I bought a house, the closing costs alone would be more than I will spend on rent, therefore renting is a better deal for me at this time. Similarly, MS offers me a subscription licensing package for Windows, Office, Windows Server and a number of other products that would typically cost me around $3000 a year to keep up to date. They only charge me $300 a year.

but Adobe wants to give less, charge more and call it a benefit to the consumer

there is literally no situation where you are better off with CC

unless you like overpaying for 20GB of webspace

even if you don't consider the radical difference in value between buying and renting

Yeh, I have CS5.5 and I've no intention currently to upgrade.

I only know one person who uses CC, and that's because he works at a university and gets it for like £20/mnth.

So compared to the "ultimate package" (or whatever they're branding it as now) of CS6, it's fairly low buy in.

oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that CC isn't right for some people

if you can't afford the buy in and need the software to get started CC is a great way to get started in the industry

I get that most people can't afford to drop $2600 for the initial buy in for MC and $50 a month is a great way to start out and get a revenue stream that will allow purchasing it

but it isn't a sustainable end goal and it isn't cheaper than buying the way they currently structure it

if it was either $20 a month for the whole package for everyone or even just drop the upgrade offers and do the SA thing with an initial buy in and then charge $50 a month if you want maintenance, but then whatever point you pay up to you should be current

that way they still get their regular income

and customers still get access to their work when the upgrades are no longer worth the cost

but yeah, I'm not saying CC shouldn't exist. I absolutely think it should. I just don't think it should be the only option

indeed.

will be interesting to see if the stock trend continues too. Thus far it isn't enough to be more than daily variation, but since the news was announced, the trend has been generally downward, though only by a few percent.

so clearly investors were not too happy with the news though current investors are not bailing that quickly

but it was also inflated by the upcoming event it looks like

so still too early to see meaning there

I wonder if Lightroom is going to move to the same sort of deal.

@AJHenderson Hmm, I don't know about that. Down over 3% in the last two days...they haven't had that kind of pullback for quite some time...since well before the beginning of the year.

If THAT trend continues, then there is clearly investor backlash against Adobe.

I think people clearly know that Adobe is going to lose millions of customers not because those customers don't like the product, but because they plain and simply cannot afford it.

I think Adobe my be trying to treat their products more like TV. People pay as much as $180 a month or more for a good TV package, and most people don't pay less than $30 a month for cable. Problem is, people get continual, regular updates of new content for that subscription fee. They are ALWAYS getting SOMETHING NEW for that monthly fee.

Adobe is simply charging you access rights...that's going to piss a lot of people off, and there is no question people aren't going to be able to afford it.

I think there will be a very big, very significant small business backlash, and that's what will really hurt Adobe.

I really hope the "software subscription" model fails. It's ludicrous to ask people to keep paying for an unchanging product month by month. If they charged a yearly fee for upgrades, then only charged you a monthly fee IF you wanted access to the cloud services, I think that would be something people could swallow, assuming the yearly fee wasn't too much.

But monthly? For something that hasn't changed? For cloud services 90% of people will NEVER use? Yeah, Adobe will experience backlash on every front (except maybe the media...really seems the media has been fully paid off to sell the Adobe Cloud up the wasu despite how ludicrous it is, frakin opportunistic greedy media bastards.)

Hmm, looking at adobe's stock, I think they have another problem. They are nearing their all-time price high of 47.88 from pre-financial crisis. Beating previous all-time highs is tough for a company that is on a major roll...beating it for a company that is having a rough time is practically impossible.

I think Adobe's stock is going to take a turn for the worse for a little while. Call it a correction, or call it backlash, but whatever it is, I think Adobe is going to be hurting for a while.

@jrista you mean like earlier this week when it was $44

it went up a bunch in prep for the announcements

because a new version of CS was expected

@AJHenderson The long-term trend for adobe stock since the beginning of the year has been up, with small fluctuations.

now those buy ins are selling off

The last two days have been a pretty large "fluctuation"

If they lose this much again tomorrow...then that would mean a three-day downtrend, which can be mid- or long-term setting.

Look at the YTD: google.com/…

Up with small downs, one medium down then up again...last two days? DOWN.

@jrista yeah, the ars technica article about it made me kinda ill

they said that it was a savings because if you bought a new version every time a release came out you saved money

using $2600 as their price for a version

never mind that a single version upgrade has never been even upward of a grand previously

I don't think it has ever even been upward of 900

it was simply flat out dishonest reporting

@AJHenderson They are referring to MCS.

MCS was always like $1700 to UPGRADE.

I think the "new" price was around $2800.

That's the problem, though.

master collection has never been 1700 to upgrade

ever

I know because I've had it since CS2

Everyone is using MC as the basis for "good pricing".

I've never paid more than $1200 for a 2-3 version upgrade

and even when it first comes out, it's never been upward of 1400

typical adobe MC CS has been $750 - $850 for a single version full upgrade $450-$500 for a half version upgrade and $1400 for a two to 3 version upgrade

hmm

you seem to have had lucky upgrade pricing

with occasionally an $1150 option for a version and a half

Currently, the full MC is $2599.

I wait for sales to get my $1200 price

generally about halfway through a release cycle or so they'll give a $200 off upgrade offer on MC

which is when I do my upgrades

Ah, you have consistently owned the MC.

I've always looked at the upgrade prices by selecting my previous package, which was either design or web.

The upgrade prices from them is over $1000

I started with a retail production studio and an edu creative studio which I combined in to MC back in CS3

From the most recent version, the upgrade price is $600. When they allowed upgrading from older versions, it was usually $800 or so.

So, $600 per year to upgrade.

and I've been MC ever since

$50/mo is $600 a year

as a video/photo/animation/web guy, I actually use everything in MC

That is the problem.

Adobe's pricing, and everyone's justification for it, is based on the upgrade path for MC only.

The $20/mo per app price is ludicrous.

You get, what, six apps in MC?

the most expensive option currently is MC every upgrade

which is $400 a year roughly

Sorry, seven major apps.

based on a new version every 2 years

so even the best possible option is looking at paying $200 a year more

for 20gb of online storage

and not actually getting a license

Oh, eight...since LR is included. Plus all the little apps...lets call groups of three little apps equal to a full app.

there is NO situation where it works out and if you don't use MC, you really REALLY lose

So, lets say you get approximately 11 "apps" with MC.

That works out to $4.49/mo as the only logically reasonable price for a per app/per mo. subscription fee.

And, realistically, you should be giving your existing customers REAL INCENTIVE to move to the cloud

And, on top of all that, "apps" are in peoples minds now, thanks to mobile devices...and people really aren't used to paying more than a few dollars per app.

Logically, I'd say around $2.99/mo/app is a good price point to incentivise existing single or couple app users to move to the cloud, without breaking their banks, and Adobe would STILL get MORE money in a more CONSISTENT way because they would be getting millions of subscription fees every month, for...ever....

Vs. people upgrading say PS for $170 every year, or $250 every couple of years...maybe.

yeah, for me the magical price point is $20 a month for MC rental or anywhere up to $60 a month where I get to keep whatever is current when I stop paying.

ah sweet vindication, finally found where it was that I saw that CF cards contained a controller

or maybe slightly less so, SD does too, now I wish I could remember the difference, perhaps it was just that the SD one doesn't have to do as much work. I don't remember since it was something I heard in passing about 10 months ago

:/

@AJHenderson Generally speaking, CF cards have higher write speeds, or at least...are capable of higher write speeds.

SD cards usually have a much lower write speed. They also degrade read and write performance faster. You guy the fastest SD money can buy, and it won't perform much better than the average SD in a couple of months.

Wear leveling in CF is better.

They maintain a high write speed for longer.

Aside from the pin issue, CF is generally more rugged as well. I snapped an SD in half once.

I've drenched CF cards, gotten sand in the pin holes, etc.

They still work like a charm.

The only thing I worry about with CF cards is bending a pin...but I've never done that, and I'm paranoid about it...so I don't suspect I will.

@jrista yeah, I know that part, I was just trying to remember what was the difference architecturally. There's a particular difference I remember reading about them that was something I hadn't heard before. It had something to do with how the controllers on the card manage CF vs SD

cause I think one of them has more requirements for particular host hardware support for certain features to work

where as the other does more on card

but I can't remember what exactly it was

@AJHenderson That is the wear leveling. I don't know of any other major thing a flash memory controller really managed.

My brother exclaimed to me that this is "the best photo you have ever taken". I don't know if I agree. But check out my latest image on 500px - 500px.com/photo/33262965

yay, my Photo.stackexchange.com shirt arrived today

and a sticker too

wohoo!!

@dpollitt something about the upper right corner feels weird to me. Not sure what exactly, think it might be the way the lines are on the clouds there

not that it's a problem with the photo taking, but it's the one thing that most immediately distracts my eye

that and the spot in the middle of the highlight area of the sun's reflection off the water

that one I'd personally try photoshopping out and see what it looks like

I definitely like the shot though

very nice texture to the sand