Photography Chat

Anonymous

3:46 AM

Why whenever I someone borrows my camera and say "I'm gonna do an artsy photo" all they do is to do an obscenely harsh dutch angle and call it a "masterpiece"

Esa Paulasto

5:34 AM

@PatoS - It is in an attempt to make fun of, and to ridicule the work and effort that goes into creating photography art.

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto lol are you being serious?

Esa Paulasto

Yes I am :)

Anonymous

lol

Anonymous

nahh @EsaPaulasto there's just a misconception where "the more you dutch angle, the better"

Anonymous

it's like when musicians say: "the louder, the better"

Anonymous

5:36 AM

both are wrong

Esa Paulasto

To a layman (actually me included) a good deal of photographic art looks like someone put a 2sec delay on shutter and threw the camera up in the air spinning, or suchlike, you know.

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto lol what do you mean?

Anonymous

by art I mean shit like

Anonymous

Anonymous

not an obscene dutch angle selfie

Esa Paulasto

5:40 AM

I mean, the "artsy" photo looks like the photographer just takes a wild photo of nothing in particular and decides to call it art, whereas a normal person would simply call it a failed photo.

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto oh yea well there's a huge gap from photog taste to joe's taste

Anonymous

for example, the picture above, for an average joe's taste lacks a lot of lens flare

Anonymous

you know? this site needs more lens flare

Anonymous

there, fixed

Esa Paulasto

5:43 AM

And there you are, someone borrows your camera and shows you what they think about artsy photography: "Just take a bad photo and call it art."

Actually there is a rule for it too.

When you know your next photo is about to fail, you must exaggerate it and make it look like you did it on purpose! But, after all, it is still only a failed photo, and you know it.

That rule is behind the dutch angle too ;)

Anonymous

lol

Anonymous

I thought the dutch angle was for "emphasis"

Anonymous

Now I know it is for:

Anonymous

Adding emphasis to the fact you don't know how to take pictures

Esa Paulasto

"I can't keep the camera level, so I'll just turn it a bit more and say I did it on purpose"

Anonymous

5:49 AM

lol

Esa Paulasto

@PatoS - Yes, just right :)

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto are you ranting?

Esa Paulasto

Well, now I am ridiculing photographic art just as badly as your camera-borrowing friends. I know I'm old and I don't much like art.

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto for me, art is just "the pic I like"

Anonymous

dead simple

Esa Paulasto

5:52 AM

So, in a way, yes it's rant. But serious at that ;)

I like realism, I don't like impressionism.

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto then I think I disagree with you

Anonymous

I love lights and beauty over form in art

Anonymous

(I still appreciate form anyway, even if you take a picture of your poop with light painting I'll think it's shit)

Esa Paulasto

And I try to keep shut up around people who love art, but since you asked that question, I gave you the answer I have :)

Anonymous

lol

Esa Paulasto

6:03 AM

Doh

Google image search : Bresson Ezra Pound

^^ is the kind of photography I like.

And landscape and nature and.. hehe ;)

Anonymous

6:20 AM

@EsaPaulasto i see

Anonymous

@EsaPaulasto mind telling me what you think about two variants of my watermark?

rfusca

1:53 PM

@PatoSáinz Here's the problem with that statement "someone borrows my camera" ;) Ya, doesn't happen.

Matt S.

4:00 PM

@PatoSáinz Or if your name is JJ Abrams :)

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz because most people aren't photographers?

@PatoSáinz honestly, I wasn't all that impressed with that photo

Esa Paulasto

It's easter saturday evening, and we'll have a traditional bonfire burning in a couple of hours.

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz dutch angle is for using more of the frame

and there are legit uses of dutch angle

but it is often not correctly used

dutch angles also can be used to capture a feel of motion very well

@rfusca haha, yeah, that too

Esa Paulasto

"Easter fire" we call it. The night after the "long friday" and before the easter monday there's going to be witches and black magic roaming free, so the fires are supposed to keep the bad away from your home.

AJ Henderson

but then again, I have a good reason for not letting my camera out of my site

actually, I have 9000 good reasons

each one of them starts with a $

I do let other people use it, but only under my supervision

and only if they already have at least a basic understanding of DSLRs

Esa Paulasto

4:09 PM

I understood that that's just how @PatoS handles it too. Not letting his camera out of his sight.

@AJH - what if someone has good understanding of mirrorless system cameras?

AJ Henderson

I'd probably give them a primer

Esa Paulasto

:D

AJ Henderson

I want to know they can hold a camera up to their eye without bashing in to things

so the SLR part is important

I suppose if it is an EVF mirrorless I'd be ok

Esa Paulasto

Huh, is it so automatic to suppose a mirrorless system camera is operated via rear display only? After all, most of them have EVF and people actually use the viewfinder.

AJ Henderson

in fact, if they had an EVF, I'd probably be more eager to show them what a real camera looks like ;)

Esa Paulasto

4:14 PM

Fair enough :)

AJ Henderson

@EsaPaulasto a lot of the early ones didn't have EVFs and I haven't looked at many of them lately, so I tend to forget about EVFs at first and then remember them

slowly I'm getting faster at recalling EVFs though

despite my brains best effort to block out that blot upon photography ;)

Esa Paulasto

Yeh, I suppose you are right. I only recently got to see any of them. Only a year ago I had no interest in digital system cameras, so I didn't follow the news or trends, nothing.

AJ Henderson

@MattS. you know, I think JJ Abrams may be one of the most mocked individuals in this channel

@EsaPaulasto and in honest fair, non-joking opinion, really, OLED displays have only fairly recently gotten high enough res to make useful EVFs and I'm sure it will only improve

Matt S.

That's funny. I mean, he does use lens flare a lot.

AJ Henderson

@MattS. yeah, it's always because of the lens flare

pretty much any time either cheap tricks, overused filters or lens flare comes up, his name gets dropped

Anonymous

4:19 PM

@EsaPaulasto traditional easter bonfire?

Anonymous

wot

Anonymous

@AJHenderson oh I just liked it :p

Anonymous

@AJHenderson of course, so there's for lens flare and instagram filters but...

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz note, I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just not that impressed by it

it's a good but average good photo. Something I'd expect from a professional photographer, but nothing that makes me go "wow"

Esa Paulasto

@PatoS - traditional for us West-coast Finns. They don't do it in the center-Finland or in the Eastern parts, nor in the North. Just us on the West-coast ;)

Anonymous

4:21 PM

@EsaPaulasto you Finns are insaaane

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz most instagram filters, not so much, simply because they are over-simplifications of legit techniques

the underlying techniques on which they are based have legit uses

well some anyway

some have just had the "legit" use of disguising shody photography

Anonymous

@AJHenderson lol

AJ Henderson

I mean, technically, if you have an image that you absolutely must save, such techniques can be useful

but they aren't techniques you would willinging choose to use

Anonymous

whenever I borrow my camera, I just don't allow them to go beyond one metre of distance from me

Anonymous

also, I say "here, here's auto mode in the dial"

Anonymous

4:24 PM

I can't do a crash course on exposure in one and a half minutes

AJ Henderson

yeah, if they don't understand exposure, I normally don't let them handle it

I'll give them the guided tour instead

Anonymous

@AJHenderson how long does that take?

AJ Henderson

depends on how much time I have ;)

can take 3 minutes or an hour and a half

though towards the hour and a half side, it does become a demonstrative crash course in basic photography

and is usually reserved for family members or personal friends

Anonymous

@AJHenderson for free?

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz sure, with friends at casual functions I'm much more in hobby mode

I love talking about photography, so if they are willing to listen :)

same reason I hang out around SE

Esa Paulasto

4:29 PM

That's the trick: "if they are willing to listen" ;)

My friends have asked to hold my camera for a while to get the feel of its weight. That's pretty much all they've been interested in.

AJ Henderson

I like sharing knowledge, you only have to pay me when it isn't what I'd be doing anyway. Invite me to a wedding, I'll take some pictures if I'd normally accept the invite but I'll balance it with attending. Pay me to do a wedding and I'll take pictures as my sole focus. Similar thing with talking about photography. If it's what I feel like doing, then I'll happily give a crash course and generally, if someone I am friends with asks about the camera and is curious in understanding more...

then if I have time, I'm generally in the mood to explain it

I think it comes from doing many advanced things. Without being able to give a basic crash course, I really can't explain any of the things I do professionally.

how do you explain or have someone appreciate technical work if they don't understand what goes in to it

Esa Paulasto

^^ A good point

AJ Henderson

without understanding what is involved in photography, it is just "oh, he takes nice photos"

Anonymous

@AJHenderson oh you bring your camera to weddings where you're invited?

AJ Henderson

and without understanding what goes in to software development it is just "he fiddles with computers all day and makes stuff go"

@PatoSáinz yeah

Anonymous

4:33 PM

also, let's say your hypothetical sister is getting married, would you do your full service to her or just enjoy her wedding?

AJ Henderson

I brought my camera to my own wedding, though I had to hand it off to someone else to take photos

@PatoSáinz that isn't a hypothetical

ajhenderson.com/pfeiffer

Anonymous

@AJHenderson handing off your camera?!

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz yeah, it was back when I had an xti

and it was to someone I had personally selected for the role

I half seriously wanted to get a glasses mounted camera

but the wife nixed it

@PatoSáinz the thing you have to know about me is that I've been shooting photos and video and such so long that it really isn't work to me to do an average job. I can do it as work or as a way to increase my enjoyment

it's just a matter of how much of my focus I give it

when I'm working, I'm actively looking and moving to get good shots

when I'm enjoying, I have my camera with me, go "ohh, good shot" when they stumble across me

the mechanics of taking the shots are just second nature

Anonymous

nice

AJ Henderson

and I would actually be more stressed out if I didn't have my camera, because I'd be worried about whoever is being paid to take shots missing really beautiful moments that I will have wished were captured

I can't switch off the part of my brain that constantly goes "that'd make a nice photo"

the trick is knowing how to balance it

and I think doing it professionally helps with that

Anonymous

4:40 PM

@AJHenderson OCD

AJ Henderson

not so much OCD, I can ignore it if I need to, it's more that I'll be disappointed if something beautiful isn't captured

it's more of an artistic drive

Anonymous

just joking, I feel the same

AJ Henderson

well, I'm mildly OCD about some other things, and it is a distinct difference. I didn't really think you were serious, but thought it was worth clarifying

but it's similar to what I've said before about not being able to enjoy a concert

same principal

Anonymous

ahhh I remember that

AJ Henderson

I can't turn off the attention to detail either and so I also go nuts when I see photographers doing things poorly

I'd pretty much have to personally select a photographer to be comfortable leaving my camera at home, and even then I'm not 100% sure I could

Esa Paulasto

4:43 PM

Bytheway, @AJH - I recently saw your video of 5Dmk3 viewfinder. Gosh, the folks at Canon seem to have robbed the technology from Roswell, ripped from those alien ships that landed there. The viewfinder functions are not from this world! :)

AJ Henderson

cause even at my own wedding, I was mildly uncomfortable and was actually monitoring in the back of my mind what my various AV people were doing

@EsaPaulasto yeah, I'd be a far larger fan of EVFs I think if I didn't have an OVF like that

Esa Paulasto

I can believe that :)

Anonymous

@AJHenderson is "AJ Henderson Photography" just you or is it "a bunch of photogs and A/V people sanctioned by me"

AJ Henderson

When my groomsman went to bring me to my bachelor party, I actually told them to wait an hour and a half because I was finishing up a video for the wedding and then during the service, it didn't start playing properly and they pretty much all simultaneously motioned to me to not go fix it and they'd figure it out

@PatoSáinz just me

if I needed a second shooter for something, I have a few possibles I'd go to though

so I do have a sanctioned shooter list

though it is a fairly short list

Anonymous

@AJHenderson if you ever happen to have a gig in Chile, hit me up :p

AJ Henderson

4:47 PM

I stopped doing video in part because I no longer had someone I could sanction as a videographer that wasn't already working in some other part of the video field

Anonymous

@AJHenderson what other parts are there?

AJ Henderson

the guys I know are either in their own wedding video companies already or work primarily in the movie making side

so not people that would want to do second shooter on a project

with video, I pretty much only trust people who are good enough that they've already started their own business or people that I personally trained

I keep really high quality standards, not just for the imagery, but also for the behavior and way it is shot

so even someone who can shoot beautiful images won't make my list if I haven't either personally trained them or seen them operating to my standards

Esa Paulasto

An OVF of a camera from my budget range has it so poor that I wonder why they bother with it at all. All there is in a poor OVF is the clarity of view. Nothing else on the plus side. EVF lacks in clarity, but has so much else to be happy with. Only the video of 5Dmk3 viewfinder opened my eyes to what else an OVF can offer (with a price tag).

AJ Henderson

mostly because my non-characteristic thing is that in most cases, I choose invisibility/being out of the way over getting the shot, but I want people that can operate in such a way they can get the shot without that being a problem

a fair number of professional event photographers are comparatively bumbling oafs. Some of the things I've seen and stories I've heard are astounding

and I stake my reputation on minimum visibility and maximum quality

@EsaPaulasto yeah, and honestly, penta-mirror vs evf is a wash in terms of quality in my opinion. I'd personally not give much preference either way depending on what I'm shooting

and that's only going to swing more to EVFs favor

@AJHenderson I have stories of photographers who, during the vows, went and stood directly over the pastor's shoulder and shot down over it

Esa Paulasto

That's the price range I'm in. No way I'd take a pentamirror over EVF.

AJ Henderson

4:54 PM

there are some churches where I am one of the few if not the only person allowed to operate backstage

and half my referrals come from people raving about how non-disruptive I was as come from the quality level of the images

so that's why I'm picky

@EsaPaulasto I don't think I even showed in that video that those grids on the background can be adjusted as well

I can remove pretty much every marking from the viewfinder if I want

but it was a bit too complicated to show in a video shot live in one take

Anonymous

@AJHenderson what stories?

AJ Henderson

see my reply to myself

as one of the extreme examples

Anonymous

oh

Anonymous

lol

AJ Henderson

even at my sister's wedding, they were constantly coming down the middle isle and walking behind the alter and moving in a circle around them with 3 different shooters all clicking away rapid fire with loud shutters for pretty much the entire service

Anonymous

5:02 PM

@AJHenderson you'd want to use a telephoto lens for getting that shot while avoiding being that obnoxious, right?

AJ Henderson

or time it so that I can move low and slow up the center isle from the back, take the shot as one to three shots max and then back off

planning my shots so that I can find time to move properly

and high tailing it when I'm out of view

but yes, in some cases, using a telephoto is the best option as well

Anonymous

@AJHenderson plus a tripod?

AJ Henderson

I monopod it

with IS

tripod is too slow

Anonymous

@AJHenderson why a monopod over a tripod?

AJ Henderson

I could setup one fixed tripod, but then I wouldn't be able to account for where people position themselves in the composition

to really properly use a tripod takes a minute or so of setup, even if you move it a few feet

time that you aren't watching the action and are missing shots

event shooting is a game of compromises

Anonymous

5:06 PM

@AJHenderson really? i thought it was "assemble" and then "carry with you untl next point"

AJ Henderson

nah, properly balancing and leveling takes time

Anonymous

@AJHenderson indeed, fucking party photography

AJ Henderson

ground isn't always flat

I suppose I could use a ball head to account for some of that

Anonymous

@AJHenderson wat

AJ Henderson

but it's also extra noise

Anonymous

5:06 PM

unless you're outdoors I can say it is

AJ Henderson

try shooting in an old church sometime

Anonymous

@AJHenderson do monopods also have that IS feedback problem?

AJ Henderson

no

monopods are weight bearing, not stabilizing

Anonymous

@AJHenderson leveling is for pussies

Anonymous

jk

Anonymous

5:07 PM

but still, I think you can rotate and crop perfectly fine in post processing, can't you?

AJ Henderson

they provide a third point of contact that can be used in stabilizing, but it requires you to provide the other two

Anonymous

@AJHenderson so your shots are a steady hand and IS?

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz yeah

@PatoSáinz yes and no

there is a huge detail cost for rotating

Anonymous

@AJHenderson really? I thought today's interpolation algorithm do it almost fine

AJ Henderson

it's still interpolation though

that's a loss in fine detail

you get what looks like detail, but it's guesses

Anonymous

5:09 PM

I know you loose some fine detail but your event photos don't cater to pixel-creeping marketers, just married couples

AJ Henderson

yeah, but if I can get it right in camera, why not?

Anonymous

you can even down-res the photos a bit and it'd be just fine

AJ Henderson

it might make the difference in if it is usable for a 13 by 19 or larger print

Anonymous

@AJHenderson yea sure

Anonymous

@AJHenderson oh. prints.

Anonymous

5:10 PM

prints are a dreadful invention to make photogs go mad

AJ Henderson

I love prints

they are the only way to really appreciate the detail

especially large prints

Anonymous

@AJHenderson just trading off detail for speed

Anonymous

@AJHenderson you can't zoom to sub-pixel with a print

Anonymous

@AJHenderson me too, but they are hard to get right

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz not if you are naturally fast at getting it right

@PatoSáinz no, but you can't tell what you are looking at when you do

Anonymous

5:12 PM

@AJHenderson why prints over screen?

AJ Henderson

when I can look at a 13 by 19 print and see the detail of the bark on a tree while also seeing the entire scene, that's far more impressive than having to zoom in to see the bug climbing on the tree

but I also work in a calibrated color environment from the PC on down to the paper

I don't bother with color targets in the photos themselves because I don't care about reality

Anonymous

@AJHenderson is WB really necessary?

Anonymous

I like my photos being a little warm

Anonymous

I hate that dreadful blue

Anonymous

especially with flashes

AJ Henderson

5:14 PM

that's what I'm saying, I don't care about what the actual color was

I care about what the image looks like

some people do color control the entire way from RL scene to prints

I start at the PC

Anonymous

@AJHenderson also, does it happen to you that LR's auto-exposure and/or auto-wb just fucks everything up

AJ Henderson

because I only care that what I develop to is what the print looks like

@PatoSáinz don't know, I can't remember the last time I used them ;)

Anonymous

@AJHenderson how do you print your prints

AJ Henderson

on my Pixma Pro-1

I have a selection of different papers depending on the shot, but primarily choose between Canon Pro-Luster, Pro-Platinum and Photo Paper Plus Semi Gloss

the luster is my favorite

pro-platinum has the longest archival life

Anonymous

@AJHenderson how expensive are they?

Anonymous

5:17 PM

also, why glossy paper?

Anonymous

it's just annoying

AJ Henderson

and the semi-gloss produces acceptible results and was dirt cheap because I picked up a few thousand sheets of it when it was on a rediculous sale

Anonymous

do you have to "calibrate" your pictures to glossy paper?

AJ Henderson

I have ICC profiles for every paper type I use on my printer

that I made custom for my exact printer

Anonymous

o_O

Anonymous

5:18 PM

ICC for paper?!

Anonymous

paper's white

AJ Henderson

no it isn't

the color response of pigment on paper varies significantly

based on how the paper absorbs it and how it catches light

and luster is a semi-gloss

gloss gives the richest blacks and dark deteail

I go semi-gloss/luster as my preference between being too shiney but also getting vivid color

luster also works great behind glass

only the pro-platinum is a full gloss

and even that isn't as glossy as the cheaper full gloss

I only really use pro-platinum on 4 by 6s destined for albumns

@PatoSáinz depends on the type and size

let me pull up my cost sheet

Anonymous

sure

AJ Henderson

.25 cents a sheet for the pro-platinum 4 by 6s, 50 cents for the pro-luster 6 by 9s.

err sorry

that was wrong

50 cents is the semi-gloss 8 by 11s

and $1.20 for a 13 by 19 pro-luster

plus ink costs obviously

it costs $350 for a full set of ink cartridges for my printer

but that's 12 rather large cartridges

the total cost for a 13 by 19 print for me is about $6

Anonymous

gtg, lunch

AJ Henderson

5:25 PM

total cost for a 4 by 6 is 60 to 70 cents

Anonymous

thanks for all the info @AJHenderson

Esa Paulasto

AJ Henderson

I bill them out far more than that though :)

Esa Paulasto

Easter bonfire is ready, only waiting for the sun to set, and we'll lit the fire.

AJ Henderson

since I have to also absorb the cost of preping for print and the cost of a $1000 printer

@EsaPaulasto oh look, JJ Abrams was here

Esa Paulasto

5:27 PM

;)

AJ Henderson

I bill out the prints at 10% cheaper than the local pro-lab

plus a touchup fee for prep for the first copy

but for my own prints, I tend to print a pretty good number of frameable images since it is so stupidly cheap

@EsaPaulasto in seriousness, I assume that is sooc

Esa Paulasto

@AJH - It took me 6 shots with this phonecamera to get the flare I wanted ;) Coz I didn't want the sun itself in frame, but still needed to make sure everyone sees that it is there. We only lit the fire after sun has set.

AJ Henderson

@PatoSáinz just to answer that clearly though, there isn't really anything special to do with the photos for the print, the ICC profile takes care of it and the software I use for the printing does the best render it can on my display of what it will look like on the print. Generally, perceptual color correction works fine without adjustment

Esa Paulasto

Phonecamera!

AJ Henderson

@EsaPaulasto wow, that's particularly impressive then

would certainly benefit from some color grading though

the black point is a medium grey right now

Esa Paulasto

5:31 PM

A Samsung even, not a Nokia as you might expect from a Finn.

AJ Henderson

makes it hard to see anything but the lensflare

hey now, my S4 has a pretty good camera

for a phone camera

though not as amazing as the S5

(did you hear when I posted that the S5 has a PDAF sensor?)

Esa Paulasto

Well, almost all phonecameras are cool nowadays, only Lumia cameras are excellent above the rest of smartphone cameras.

AJ Henderson

PHASE DETECT!!!!!

in a phone!!!

Esa Paulasto

Eh, not even all Lumias have so excellent camera. Only those few models have.

I hear you, AJ :)

I presume it also has focus bracketing, like Lumia has?

AJ Henderson

though in fairness, it isn't supposed to be that much improved over the S4 camera, not that the S4 was a slouch

Esa Paulasto

5:36 PM

I wonder what's the point with PDAF with the DoF that a phonecamera has..

AJ Henderson

PDAF isn't about accuracy, it's about speed

Esa Paulasto

Aye, that's it.

AJ Henderson

the S5 will be able to focus on a kid running across a room

oh, and lumia is the one that is cramming uselessly large numbers of photosites in

ehh

that kinda makes me frown on them in general

Esa Paulasto

Ask @MichaelN about the benefits of supersampling ;)

AJ Henderson

yeah, but it's supersampling beyond the point of meaningful information

that's so very far past the point of diffraction issues as to be laughable

it's clearly just going for having a stupidly large number to make it look better to consumers

but the costs could easily be spent better on other parts of the camera

Esa Paulasto

5:41 PM

I've held my friend's Lumia 1020 in my hands and inspected photos he has shot with it. There is no uselessly large number of photosites. They have use for the lot.

I think they actually market it as 8MP camera, or what was it. Only some ads may flash the full MP count. Though I haven't really been looking at their ads lately.

g2g, the sun is about to set... it is 8:45 p.m. here

AJ Henderson

@EsaPaulasto that's more close to a 14mp quality wise

looking at some of the samples

it definately is not making full use of 41mp

it is an impressive camera, I'll grant, but still question the allocation of funds

compare the 100% crop level of detail of the 1020 to the 100% crop level of detail of a camera that actually makes use of the full MP and you will see that there isn't a comparison

it's certainly very sharp, but it is not even close to the actual number of photosites

Anonymous

6:11 PM

Samsung gimmicks

Esa Paulasto

7:58 PM

^ Shot with the Samsung again. The Easter bonfire is history now for this year, the next fire will burn at Mid-summer parties :)

Esa Paulasto

8:19 PM

Easter Fire

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AndyML

8:44 PM

Ok, for a new website, cheap host (like dreamhost @$9/mo), Wordpress installed (price?), and premium theme for one-time payment ($20-$120)?

Shyju

9:30 PM

yo

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