TRPG General Chat - 2013-03-02

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12:54 AM

@SimonGill If an aspect gets a tag due to environment or NPC action, can the tag be passed to a PC?

Example: Nikki takes the mild consequence "Jittery" from a ghost's attack, and the GM lets Andy use the tag for a +2 on his Intimidate roll to tease her about screaming at a dropped book.

Second example: a powerful but unskilled sorcerer loses control of his blast, giving the room the aspect "On Fire" with an attack meant for Dresden. The GM lets Dresden use the tag for a free compel to make the sorcerer retreat to the next room.

(I'm pretty sure fallout aspects give a tag to someone.)

1:19 AM

Eh, I took it into an actual question, or something very like it.

> If the tag belongs to the GM, what are the implications about its use? (the old version which then mentioned players being able to pass tags to each other)

That had me imagining a bunch of people all setting each other on fire

I'm thinking I should make that a separate question.

I'm curious, does FATE have XP?

Heh. "Tag" is a metamechanical term meaning you get to invoke the aspect once without spending a Fate point.

@JonathanHobbs Nope.

It's got a very different, session-and-story-driven, progression.

I suspect there's not exactly any... level-style progression, just narrative progress and perhaps gaining a permanent aspect or two

1:25 AM

At the end of any session, you get a minor milestone, and you can do one of these:

- Switch the rank values of any two skills, or replace one Average skill with one that isn’t on your sheet.
- Change any single stunt for another stunt.
- Purchase stunts or powers, provided you have the refresh to do so.
- Rename one aspect.

like My Left Arm Is Cyborg

Huh ok.

At the end of a scenario or major plotline (usually every two or three sessions), you can do all of this:

- Gain one additional skill rank.
- Gain one of the benefits of a minor milestone.

And at the end of a major campaign shake-up like the conclusion of a really long plot, you get all of this:

- You can “clear out” an extreme consequence slot, allowing it to be used again.
- An additional point of refresh.
- New stunts and/or powers.
- All the benefits of a significant milestone.

The skill ranks and the refresh point are the really major "advancement" mechanics; the rest is reshuffling within your current power level to reflect character change.

:D

That is neat

And you're going to have... 20 of those?

Hm?

For your coin plot

1:31 AM

Oh, the coin plot was intended for 4e, just inspired by a plotline from the Dresden Files novels.

Oh okay o:

I have no idea what my DFRPG campaign is going to be about. The players are going to be telling me that by choosing aspects for their characters and the setting.

- I Collect Coins

- Mystic Interests

- Artifact Hunter

We could definitely run the same campaign concept in DFRPG itself, though it'd probably be slightly AU.

...and definitely at a very high power level (determined by the Refresh and skill points we'd start with).

AU?

1:36 AM

alternate universe.

right ;o

I picked the term up from fanfiction communities: a story exploring "What if Lord Voldemort had killed Neville's parents instead of Harry's?" would be an alternate universe fic.

That is true

perf.hpmor.com/chapter/1

> This is not a strict single-point-of-departure fic - there exists a primary point of departure, at some point in the past, but also other alterations. The best term I've heard for this fic is "parallel universe".

apparently there are terms for that too

In DF, there's a small group of paladin-type guys dedicated to the coin problem. They're intimately connected to the novels' plot. In order to run a game centered around the coin problem, we'd have to either set it well before the books start or declare it to be happening in a version of the Dresdenverse where those guys are our characters instead.

@BrunoPatatas Hi!

@BESW Aha I get it. That would be pretty neat then.

1:41 AM

@JonathanHobbs Oh, everybody argues about exactly what those things are called and whether they should "warn" against them in the fic summaries.

I once ran across the "all slash is AU" debate and nearly lost my eyebrows to the flames.

ouch

The only way I was ever able to craft a campaign set in a well-established part of a canonical timeline was in SG-1, through careful orchestration of "You're never there for the stuff we see on screen."

Every time the show said "We've got five teams stuck off-world," I'd take notes and cackle.

Also BESW

I think

I will encourage my players to stick with their characters with only minor modifications for this island adventure

and tell them if they want to make a major change or make a new character, they should do so once they reach port

to give them a sorta period to get used to things I guess?

Makes sense.

I want them to have fun so I'll open it up that they can talk to me about what they want to do

e.g. one could even take over the weather shaman i guess

storm shaman*

1:55 AM

That'd be cool. I've had players take over NPCs every now and then.

[blink] TIL there are iPhone and iPad apps for ogham divination.

:I

Weird

I'm gonna read about that later

For now I'm off, bye! :D

Ta!

1 hour later…

3:08 AM

@Lord_Gareth, @wraith808 Hi.

2 hours later…

4:38 AM

So, I've been wondering something, and I'm not sure if it would make a good RPG question, as likely there's no perfect answer.

How much can a character's intelligence stat (in any game that has such things put into numbers) affect what they're able to come up with?

If the question is based in experience and answers can be based on experience and/or citation instead of opinion, be useful to multiple people, and avoid endless lists, it's usually worth a shot.

For example, in Pathfinder and D&D, can having a ridiculously high intelligence stat come with potential benefits, such as the uncanny ability to always figure out what is "most likely" to occur?

@Zach Hmmm. That does seem a bit subjective. Can you frame it to get good subjective answers?

I'm not sure, which is partially why I asked it here. I'd like to get some kind of answer, I'm just not certain that it's a question to be asked on the site, or more specifically if I'm the best person to ask it (phrase the question)

Well, first you want to do your research. The 3.5 SRD and PFSRD entries on Int sound like a good place to start; the 3.5 MM1's glossary entry on mental abilities (p298) is also useful.

Once you have the background and context, you might be able to figure it out yourself; if so, great! You can ask a question on SE and then simultaneously your own answer to it, if it's something you think others would find helpful.

If you haven't come up with an answer you find satisfactory, then you want to ask it as a question that can be answered either with something that happened to the answerer personally or with something that can be cited.

Ask "how" and "why," and ask for experiences over opinions.

I'd be happy to help you workshop the question, but it's your question and it'd be cool if we could keep it that way.

I think it's definitely a question that the site can handle, and I'm confident that we can help you be the best person to ask it.

4:52 AM

@BESW Which is my problem. I've tried to come up with the answer, and for the most part, I always come back to "Well, it would all likely depend on the DM."

As there are no stated rules that say that Int. has to allow a player access to the level of reasoning their character Should have (the Int. description specifically says that it determines your character's ability to learn and Reason) but as it would be difficult to determine exactly how far ridiculous levels of reasoning can get you (especially those beyond the human capability) it would be equally as difficult to determine how much is 'too much'

Okay, let's talk it out as a question.

It sounds like you've basically got two parts to this question.

First, "Does a high Intelligence score provide inherent awareness or reasoning benefits?"

Second, "Is there a way to determine the precise scale or scope of these benefits?"

Is that about right?

I suspect you're going to have to narrow this down to a specific system or small set of systems, as otherwise the question is inviting massive lists of how Every System Ever handles Intelligence-based abilities.

@BESW Well, I'm not sure about the first one as a question. After all, if having a high stat in the stat that represents your ability to reason doesn't provide you with an increased ability to reason, what does it do? (other than all that mechanical stuff)

@Zach It does all that mechanical stuff.

Though, the opposite may be an interesting question, as well; Does a low intelligence score inhibit the level of reasoning a player is allowed to give his/her character?

If you're not asking about benefits to awareness or reasoning that provide some kind of mechanical influence, then you're just asking about how people roleplay their characters.

5:00 AM

Well, that's just it... "roleplaying" and "mechanics" aren't the only aspects of the game; there's also the metagame.

@Zach I've never ruled it mechanically, but traditionally if a player in my games comes up with something his character couldn't reasonably suggest (intelligence, not being there, not having all the information), I have the player tell it to the other players, and the PC who could reasonably come up with it is the one who has the idea in-character.

What do you mean by metagame? It's used to mean... almost anything, so without a contextual definition it's a meaningless word.

To clarify; if a wizard has an intelligence of 30 (in Pathfinder, it is possible, though only really at upper level) but is played by someone of average intelligence, then how can that person accurately depict their character?

35

Q: How do I roleplay an intelligent character?

What are some strategies and techniques for role playing a character that is more intelligent than you actually are? It's pretty easy to pretend to be someone who is less intelligent, but the reverse seems very difficult.

Yes, there's that... however, I was looking more at whether or not the DM should provide information the character 'should' be able to puzzle out just by thinking about it, or if that's granting too much of a bonus for a high stat score

@Zach That would be one of the suggested strategies in the answers.

"Ask to roll for things. You can't come up with a plan better than a plan you can come up with. But the GM has a lot more information than you, and can MAKE plans successful."

"You should collaborate with your DM and have him/her feed your character solutions to puzzles or extra information that your character can share with the group."

5:06 AM

Alright... that's settled, then. Now, getting back to my original issue; "How much is too much?"

Alright... that's settled, then. Now, getting back to my original issue; "How much is too much?"

Okay, so to ask that question I'd start by linking to the "how do I roleplay an intelligent character" question. Then I'd ask for people to share experiences about limiting or exceeding reasonable bounds in that area.

Seems reasonable... would expanding to ask what kinds of things should possibly be allowed be taking it to far? For example; solving a puzzle seems reasonable, but what about, say, coming up with an algorithm that consistently determines how long any given quest will take?

I don't know if the second one is possible, but as the characters in question can have access to levels of reasoning beyond the human scope, how can we be certain that we're not basically playing the character as a (forgive the phrase) retarded version of what it should really be capable of.

@Zach Give that as an example of what might be taking it too far, and ask for experience-based answers about what proved to be "too far" in peoples' games. Make sure you ask for "how" and "why" their examples went too far.

A subjective question like this needs to be pretty narrowly focused, but invite detailed answers within that focus.

Hmm... I'll do a mock-up, then link to it. I can edit the question if need be.

Aight.

5:35 AM

0

Q: Is it really possible to represent a 'genius' character completely accurately?

In this thread, we had several examples of many ways to role-play a character that's smarter than its player. Many suggested letting the DM give information to the player that the character could reasonably be able to have/figure out. However, how far is too far? Letting a character figure out ...

dnd-3.5e pathfinder statistics

Very nice. I'm trying to think of a more descriptive title, though.

mm. Brain's not coming up with much.

Your question isn't so much about if it's possible, as how you decide what's a reasonable capacity based on Int score.

@BESW Well, personally, I'm of the opinion that it Should be possible, but as there's really no way to determine the mechanical advantage of having an intelligence high enough to allow you to figure out the BBEG's every move before they make it, some DMs won't allow it on principal

I'm pretty sure that intelligence isn't the score for that anyway.

Most of what you're trying to model can probably be achieved by setting really high skill checks; in the case of anticipating the villain, Sense Motive would probably be involved.

I'm not so sure; for example, in-game, I have players make opposing Int. checks whenever they play a game like chess against each other

After all, besides 'profession: chess player' what would it be?

There are standards for making stat checks in situations like that.

But in my game, it'd be a set of opposed checks based on playstyle.

Sense Motive to try and figure out the other guy's style vs his Bluff, History to recognize classic moves, and so on.

5:47 AM

Well, yes, but what I'm getting at is that Int. specifically states that it represents the character's ability to reason; when you strategize, what are you doing but trying to reason out what the best course of action is

I think you're expecting D&D/PF to do things outside their scope.

And even within their scope, Int isn't the be-all, end-all. If your strategy involves anything with a motive or will, Wis is going to have to come into it.

Possibly, but what I'm getting at is what's possible with the Extreme end of the spectrum; After all, psychologists are trying to quantify emotions and the like in such a way as to be able to use reason and knowledge to understand them, as opposed to gut-instinct.

Yeeeeah, it's not a good idea to try and apply real-world logic to D&D ability stats. They aren't a representation or even an abstraction of the real world; they're an abstraction of fictional heroic tropes.

That way lies madness.

Alright: heroic trope for intelligence; Peter Parker was capable of creating a chemical mixture that was stronger than steal, with just the materials a teenage boy would have access to. He was said to have an IQ of 400.. which, a 39 intelligence score would probably come pretty close to that.

My point is that D&D is a system with stress limits, and it's not designed to be able to handle the kind of real-world extrapolation you're attempting. It wants to use skill checks and ability checks to resolve these things in single rolls, when it should be using multifaceted factors across multiple fields.

It's just not the kind of game that's interested in how or why Peter Parker can make his webbing. It's interested in how and why Peter Parker can beat monsters up and take their stuff.

Unfortunately the game's designers often try to give the impression that it's a system capable of universal application, which leads to a lot of confusion and frustration.

5:59 AM

@BESW Hmm... I suppose that is an issue, but as someone who likes to wonder exactly what someone with an IQ only found in comic books would be capable of, I guess I'm just disappointed when my Int. 40 Serpantfolk in a monster-campaign can't just "guess" what the bad-guys plan is, and probably be right

Aye, well. You may be in the wrong system. In order for that to work in D&D, your original conclusion is right: the GM has to agree with you that it's a thing which can be done, because the rules are silent.

You basically have to free-form your way into it if you're using a system that isn't interested in supporting that kind of play.

I'd consider going for Mutants&Masterminds, as Super-Genius is actually a character type in that game... but I've tried it there, too, and it didn't work

Mmm. Not all systems are capable of what we'd expect, or what the developers claim.

One important key to happy gaming is to find a system that's compatible with the group's desired experience, or have the group agree to fiddle with the system until they've homebrewed it into submission.

it's not a huge problem, as it's really just something I'd like to experience once. I have that problem a lot, wanting to play something, specifically, that just isn't possible to represent in the game that I consistently have fun playing.

Yeah, it took my group a long time to wring the fun out of 3.5 and 4e, but for the last couple years we've been increasingly frustrated by its narrative limitations.

6:11 AM

My group is doing pathfinder, and we've already figured out how to homebrew around that.

Generally, when we feel it necessary, we only apply the rules when it comes to combat. Everything else is RP and plot

Yeah, every group has a different level of crunch they enjoy and a different set of circumstances when they want to apply it vigorously.

We're looking forward to FATE because its crunch is all RP-based already.

I... can't really say the same would be true of me. Whenever I feel the need to stretch my narrative muscles, I just hop onto an RP forum. After a few weeks, though, I crave something with a bit more structure

FATE's got a pretty solid structure, and the stunt system lets you customize how fine-tuned you want your character to be.

It just sets all the crunch on top of an RP foundation by replacing stats with short phrases about your character, which you can use game currency to get bonuses for. And then you can spend game currency to get bonuses against targets when their phrases are inconvenient for them.

hmm... sounds complex, and like you'd need a good DM

It definitely expects the group to work together to make things tick. A lot of things, including the setting and plot, are determined by consensus.

1 hour later…

7:39 AM

> Has anyone had any experiance with this? If you have given players access to knowledge the character 'should' have, then what kind of information did you give them, and do you feel that it was too much? If it Was too much, was it because it disrupted the game, or because you felt that such a character wouldn't able to come up with such things?

I kinda want to answer that question about roleplaying a genius but I have no experience to draw on, just roleplaying wisdom.

8:02 AM

@JonathanHobbs Ditto.

My response is "No, you can't represent anyone or anything in an RPG completely accurately, because it would be as complex as its real-world counterpart. We don't understand the role and potential of intellect in the real world, so we can't model it accurately in a game --much less in a game that is more concerned with punching things and setting things on fire than it is with social or mental conflicts."

....But I'm not sure that meets the six good subjective guidelines.

0

Q: Wacky scrolling in Chrome if you scroll from the subheader

There's some goofy behaviour I've noticed in Google Chrome. Here's how to reproduce it. Put your cursor somewhere in this region Or anywhere in the site's header where you can middle-click, really. Then do that: middle click to get that scrolling cursor happening, and move your cursor to scroll...

Cannot replicate with two-finger drag scroll on MacBook touchpad.

@JonathanHobbs The main reason he emphasized experience so much is that I told him to.

It's the kind of question that can easily take a left turn into crazytown, and experience-based limiters seemed like a good idea.

...I should make that a comment, eh.

Sigh.

Only one player at the moment, not sure if player 2 is coming or not.

We are watching The Dresden Files while we wait; P1 hasn't seen the show yet.

2 hours later…

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

10:44 AM

I don't know what to do with this question anymore: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/22483/…

I answered before the latest edit, and now I want to answer again. Do I edit my previous answer? Do I add a second answer?

Or do I just comment?

Well, don't comment. Comments don't last.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

11:01 AM

I'm not sure how constructive another answer will be now, in the mess that is that question.

Yeah...

1 hour later…

12:24 PM

@Tynam hi!

Hi there. How's it going?

Not bad, considering we didn't get enough players for DFRPG tonight.

Sorry to hear it; I'd love to do more of that myself.

same

Aye, it was to be our very first night with the system.

Hence all the weird FATE questions I've been posting. Trying to get a handle on the system before I have to teach it.

12:35 PM

I'm very sorry to hear it then; it's a system worth looking forward to (and I've enjoyed your questions). Hope it goes better next time!

FATE seems to be the system I've been trying to bend D&D into for nearly ten years.

It can be. Oddly, I'm just taking a break from it for D&D ;) This afternoon I'm mostly putting off dealing with important work issues by putting together my D&D game for Friday.

...early in the campaign and I need to start making a plot that can hold the party together work.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

I played a short playtest of D&DvNext the other day, which was interesting.

Happily my discovery of FATE coincided with my group's slow disillusionment with various aspects of D&D that we were previously willing to overlook or compensate for because of the parts we liked.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Though I'm not sure if "First rule of D&DvNext is you don't talk about D&DvNext" is still in effect.

12:39 PM

I suspect the same would have happened to our group, except that we were always big WoD fans so our Werewolf game prevented D&D burnout.

So I've been experimenting with FATE-like mechanical variants in the final sessions of a 4e campaign, to greater and lesser success.

Sounds interesting. As the guy who's going into D&D4 for the first time in years, what worked well?

(I definitely have a party-cohesive-long-term-plot shortage to remedy here.)

Skill challenges are a really cool idea, but they suck in practice.

There are homebrew variants out there that'll do much better.

enworld.org/forum/…! is what I used.

Don't be afraid to fuss around with NPCs. NPC design changed drastically halfway through 4e, and so things from the MM3 and after are the model you want to use.

Thanks for the recommendation; I'd been looking at that after our last game.
(I'd caught on to the MM3 changes; since I only have MM1&2 I'm paying particular attention to the couple of questions we've had on conversion.)

4e is mechanically obsessed; it sacrifices any semblance of simulation in exchange for increased balance and a dearth of subsystems.

Psionics are the only real subsystem the game provides, and they're pretty balanced.

12:44 PM

True. Doesn't worry me though, because I'm a mechanically obsessed GM with a party who love to RP, so the flaws get corrected easily.

If you don't have a DDI subscription, your life is going to be a lot harder.

My world-description provides the simulation my party wants pretty well.

(I say this as someone who was VERY suspicious of the DDI.)

We're not doing enough D&D yet to justify the subscription, compared to just using the CBLoader cbuilder update. If the campaign takes off I'll look again.

(RP tools budget for this month just went on some very pretty marker tokens. Which sadly haven't arrived in post yet. Sigh. But at least an old star wars order from a month ago arrived today. So, kinda useful. Marginally.)

Cool.

I'm driving home now, see you later.

12:48 PM

See you around.

1:21 PM

@Tynam The minion/standard/elite/solo system for NPCs is absolutely awesome, until you realize that solos can often be totally neutered by well-placed debuffs that are balanced for fights with multiple targets. There are a number of solutions to this, and @Magician's blog covers some of my favorites.

Speaking of whom... Hi.

That's some nice pre-emptive ping

Hello :)

How's it going?

Just back from a Deep Purple concert. So it's going awesomely :D

What about you?

DFRPG failed to start tonight due to everyone suddenly working.

Hate when that happens.

1:26 PM

Mmm. Hoped to have interesting mechanical tidbits for you.

Instead all I can tell you is that the Dresden Files TV series is a poor, pale reflection of the novels --but probably better than the novels for getting plot ideas that will only span a handful of sessions.

Yeah, it wasn't that impressive. But now when I watch Arrow, I keep waiting for the police detective to cast a spell, or for someone to call him Harry...

Paul Blackthorne is the only light in that dark, grim abyss of a show.

I watch it for the same reason I watched Primeval --to laugh at it-- but with Primeval I felt like the show was laughing too.

Hm. Primeval is on my list of shows to maybe watch some day, because dinosaurs. Not worth it?

I loved it.

It's silly and internally inconsistent, and regularly defies all laws of physics and writing, and is so happy while it does these things that I can't help but like it.

@Magician I seem to remember it as ITV's answer to Torchwood

1:33 PM

@SimonGill I barely got through one season of that

Kinda? I felt it was more like an inversion of Doctor Who: instead of traveling through time and space to meet Weird Things, the Weird Things obligingly come to London.

@BESW Hah, so much of DW just happens to be in London.

And Torchwood was all grimdark with the swearing and the sex because it wanted to be "Doctor Who for grown-ups" but didn't realize Doctor Who is for grown-ups. So they just tacked on sex and swears and thought that was sufficient.

I enjoyed several of the actors in Primeval, alternately admired and laughed at the special effects, and shouted at the screen about not only failing real-world physics but also failing its own physics.

@BESW To be fair, DW suffers from that, too. So many times you can sort of see how they imagined the scene, and narratively understand it, but what they actually pull off on the screen just looks stupid. And not because of cheap special effects...

The Canadian spinoff of Primeval is stupider, but less gleefully so.

@Magician Heh, yeah.

One thing about Primeval that cheesed me off a little is that they stopped their plot arc cold and moved to another one at least three times.

@Magician The awful special effects are one reason Old Who was so great.

They didn't have the restraint that Sapphire and Steel had to only do things their budget could support, so you got the Giant Pantomime-Horse Amphibian Thing Operated By Men High On The Fumes Of The Still Wet Paint.

To this day I cannot decide if (successfully!) hiding behind bubble wrap was a special effects failure, a visual conceit, or just someone failing to notice how stupid it was until the sets were built.

1:41 PM

o_O

@Magician The Huffing Amphibian or the bubble wrap?

@BESW I have to agree - it could be any one of those.

The whole thing, really

@SimonGill I'm pretty sure it's not the last one, because they did it several times in multiple stories.

@Magician But then, you got a great record of the changes of scientific and story-based thinking ascross almost 30 years out of it.

1:46 PM

And while the bubble wrap thing was mostly an early Doctors thing, the Myrka was Five:

...it's interesting, in hindsight, how quickly it dropped the conceit of being a scientific education show.

(I haven't found the best clip of it yet.)

@BESW ....wow.

@Tynam Worked better as a historical education show, I think.

Trying to showcase hard science next to a "magic" box didn't quite work as well.

True in theory, but it's always had a... robust and flexible... concept of history.

1:48 PM

@SimonGill No, gold used in coins was always alloyed with another metal to make it harder. Otherwise the coins would just rub away into nothing really fast, and it was easier to shave them down.

One of my regulars has been promising to GM a UNIT game for us for a year. If she doesn't hurry up and do it soon, I'm going to... motivate her.

(Also, lead was the most commonly used metal in counterfeit gold coins because it had a similar weight, and lead is pretty malleable too.)

@Tynam Cool. One moment, hunting down a blog link.

@BESW Fair enough - I guess somebody lied to me sometime in the past.

@SimonGill It's a common misinformation based on having just enough information to get into trouble.

@Tynam There's a guy doing a series of blog posts under the conceit of re-imagining the Doctor Who series as a long-running RPG. First post: siskoid.blogspot.com/2012/01/doctor-who-rpg-season-1.html

Each producer is a different GM, the Brigadier is a player who can't show up very often, and so forth.

@BESW It is very awesome. The daily reviews of every episode are cool too.

2:00 PM

@SimonGill Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've seen films that perpetuate the idea of biting being to check for malleability.

@BESW Might be worth updating the answer to address the common misconception.

But... yeah. If gold were left unalloyed, the ridges on the sides of coins would be pointless to stop shavers.

...returns from rapid blog read. Thanks, BESW, that's awesome and hilarious.

Glad you like it.

OK. Brainstorming session. I'm still having not-enough interesting party-cohesive plot ideas, I've got a D&D to write for Friday (although I know what this session will be, I need to start setting up longer-term plot threads), and I need reasons to keep the party together in the long run with some fairly varied backgrounds.

2:09 PM

@Tynam Oooh, oooh, me! pick me!

Gladly.

Let's see if I can track down the last time I did this in chat.

Starts here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8167223#8167223

Campaign situation so far: I inherited an FR game after one adventure, due to GM having a baby and moving to another city (not in that order). I've run a couple of one-offs since, but we're now planning to turn it into a regular game. So, the party have already met, and will be together for their next task, but I need to adjust motivations to keep it that way.

Party members:

@BESW I've been thinking about Incep and Bas, yesterday

@Zachiel Oh?

2:12 PM

Don't ask why. Maybe I was thinking of how it could sound in Italian

@Tynam Adventuring club. Everyone becomes a member.

@Zachiel I'm sure wordplay like that would require different structures in other languages.

...I'll need to get there naturally.

Party motivations so far:

@Tynam See also, Making the Tough Decisions for things like "I'll do this thing I have no motivation for because my friend has motivation, and he's my friend."

1) Passionate but unsophisticated avenger from backwater religious order. The order protects travellers, but this is her first trip. Has never been anywhere with more than a few dozen people before.
She's my primary plot motivator for Friday: she's been sent to carry warning to a much bigger temple of a plague that the order's seer forsaw striking the city.

@Zachiel French holorimes come to mind; that's something English is really incapable of.

2:18 PM

On the way, she encountered and fought beside:
2) Dark elf ranger archer. Player has specific that he's fled his home in the underdark "because his arranged marriage would have been worse"; no other motives to date. Also doesn't like crowds. Plays well with (1).

3) Novice, an ancient golem, inactive for a millenium following a roof collapse. Dug out and reactivated by somebody's excavation. (Modelled as a warforged warden for rules purposes.) Motives: Has no place in the world. Wants to find out what happened to his creators, and figure out what to do next.

4) Dragonborn fire-controller wizard. Smart, diplomatic but oblivious (player took Wis 8 on purpose!) Motives: Acquire cool knowledge.
3) and 4) met the others at a fair on the city approach.

Most hilarious intro scene: Wizard spending ten minutes complaining that there was nothing of magical interest at the fair, failing to notice the huge war golem browsing the stands. I love blown perception checks ;)

Heheheh.

@Tynam Have you looked at this question? It might get you thinking in "party working together" kinds of ways.

Um. My copypasta broke, sorry.

@BESW no problem

When I start campaigns, I always ask my players to ensure their characters have a reason to work together. Lately I've been using the You All Work For the Same Boss technique, which lets me ask them to all have a reason to work for that guy/organization/club.

So, you've got good cohesion between 1 and 2.

That talk we had about Dresden creation a few weeks back got me thinking along those lines anyway, but the players of the ranger and golem specifically *don't want* to tell us about (ranger) or know (golem) their background; they'd like me to surprise them.

And yes, usually I do the same... in this case I inherited the party, and need to find a way to make it work.

4 is probably interested in tagging along with 3 due to "magical interest" at the very least.

2:25 PM

As you say, (1) and (2) naturally travel well together, (3) and (4) have natural goals in common (research into ancient temples and golem construction); I just need to make these two half-parties cooperate.

...also, each pair make natural stars of a buddy-movie cop show.

Shame that there's very few (or no) models of buddy buddy crossovers out there.

First thing that comes to my mind? The golem becomes the avenger's bodyguard.

Yep.

The avenger has an order that could hire him, or a divine patron that could just "arrange" for it to happen.

...hmmm, good idea, BESW. Golem/mage is an obvious natural pair that will happen without me, but if he's got a specific reason to guard her, then that links the two.

2:28 PM

Alternately, I've had success with "you happen to be traveling the same direction, traveling in groups is safer and cheaper, and you bond over the troubles you overcome on the way."

Maybe an oracle tells the golem that the avenger or ranger is linked to his past or future somehow.

(Oracles are fun.)

We've done some of that last session, and it works well as far as it goes, but I need a reason strong enough to hold them together when the avenger's mission is complete and she ought to go back to her order, while the mage and golem want to go investigate an old Gondish library or something.

You can always tell the players that.

"Hey, guys, you've got a good reason to work together now, but by the end of this adventure I'd like you to have found reasons to keep travelling together."

Offer to help brainstorm, provide opportunities, give them support in the plot, but give the agency to them.

You could suggest all the things we've already talked about as a place to start in the brainstorming, and if they like one of them then you can help them do that.

[yawn] I must get up in 4 and a half hours, so goodnight.

So true ;) I'm not that worried about the _really_ long term, because this group tend to make character and run with it, but they often have trouble getting started so I need to give them something in the mean time.

I like the bodyguard idea ...so, I need a patron for the golem, and someone attempting to assassinate the avenger.

Well the latter is obvious - clearly this plague is not a natural occurence, but someone benefits from it and doesn't want it prevented. Aha - so I'll need a cleric of a plague deity, working with (or at cross-purposes to) some local criminals planning to hijac…

There you go.

OK, thanks for your help. Sleep well. (I have to go pick up my party from an airport, so I'll see you all around.)

2:55 PM

learned last night why PCs just appear with parties in 4e...long and tortured attempt to get a new PC introduced.

@waxeagle Oh?

@SimonGill would you rescue someone locked in a tower of aberrant critters when everyone you've found so far has been incredibly corrupted nearly beyond saving?

@waxeagle Depends on the character, but if I didn't know them probably not.

Or there was no trust link between mine and theirs.

Poor new kid (basically brand new to RP) didn't have enough backstory on the tower to realize that being there was enough for us to just want to kill him out right. Thankfully we walked him through enough that he was able to convince the PCs that he wasn't at all corrupted (yeah arcana checks) and so we let him join...but it was painful to play through.

@waxeagle ouch

3:06 PM

@SimonGill it's probably a lot harder for us because we're all RP n00bs who've been playing 4e for at most 2 years (and the new guy's only P&P experience was a couple of sessions of my 4e games which I run as mostly dice chucking). (plus he seems to have attention issues and we had 8 people at the table last night which just made things hard)

@waxeagle That sounds like it's close to a perfect storm.

@SimonGill yeah.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

Having gone through too many incidents like this - either "He has PC written on him, let him join!" or else "We don't know this guy, kill! kill! kill!", I am now of the opinion that the GM and joining player should always sit and prepare a plausible link to one of the existing PCs to make it easier.

@AvnerShahar-Kashtan meh, I'm more of the don't try to explain it, it just gets wierd, school of thought

he's just there

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

@waxeagle It really depends on the specific party dynamics. Some groups will feel this seriously harms SOD. Some, on the other hand, will prefer a looser narrative.

For most D&D-style games, I would prefer the deeper link. Other games work better without.

3:12 PM

From the sounds of it, @waxeagle's game is better without the deep link.

@SimonGill that's probably partly my perception of things. But we get to try again next session so maybe it will go better (the new player had a couple of PCs built so he tried one out last night and will try the other one out next session)

@waxeagle It'll be worth checking his backstory and joining scene before he jumps in :P

@SimonGill yeah we've got a week off before we play again and we're having a game night at our house. I'll mention to him that he might want a bit of backstory written on the new character so he's got some plausibility....

@waxeagle Wait, did he just say "I'm here in this tower" - and that was everything?

@SimonGill not quite. he was locked in a cell and we actually unlocked the door, and then he gave a rather implausible explanation of who he was and what he was doing there, the rogue actually subtly locked the cell door back until we had RP'd a bit more (and checked him for aberrant taint)

it was kind of hilarious. We asked him who he was and he held up a card from a school of cleric-wizardry, the Dm made him roll bluff vs all of our insight checks and all but the barbarian beat him and then the rogue rolled stealth to lock the door.

3:27 PM

@waxeagle Cleric-wizardry? Aw, bless.

I guess that would have been Oghma in the old days. Did he survive into 4? I can't remember.

poor guy wasn't given enough background on the tower to realize that being there alone was enough for us to severely mistrust him.

@SimonGill not sure. he's a worshipper of Garl Glittergold. but he's a hybrid Cleric-Wiz (and not badly built, highest AC in the party)

@SimonGill still around

@waxeagle As you said, that could be an artifact of 8 players and intermittent focus.

@SimonGill yeah, and actually probably made worse by the fact that he was sitting next to the person at the table who wasn't playing.

@waxeagle People - more distracting than iPads.

yes

definitely

3:38 PM

Next session, make him sit by you. He might pick up more stuff just by it being directed in the same direction.

@SimonGill yes. Specially because he's going to have to be aware of what's going on in the melee and be ready to make opportunity attacks/immediates this time.

@waxeagle He's probably coming back to the cleric after that experience.

@SimonGill yeah, the cleric|wiz is going to be much lower maintenence for him. The Shaman is probably overall more useful, but it's going to be a lot harder for him to play, and he's going to have to pay a lot more attention.

If the rewards are big enough, then he might up his focusing skills. At least he's trying though.

aaaanyway, I'm going to go and pick up my Kindle. I'm well behind the average page-read rate I need to be ready for the Memory of Light eBook release.

@SimonGill enjoy, I should get back to work.

3:46 PM

@waxeagle If you're at work, probably wise :P Have an easy day :)

@SimonGill at work by choice more or less

7 hours later…

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

11:06 PM

right.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Bear left?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW yep.

So, one objective to dday is to get turns out.

I was basically dead yesterday

11:52 PM

Question: If a location existed for roleplaying that had everything you need to play anything: minis, battle mats, terraclips, maps, dungeon tiles, books, props, and the like. How would you expect to pay to make use of this space. Per hour for players? Per hour for GMs? Per hour per group? Some other way? And how much? What do you think are must-haves for such a location?

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