TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

when you say crunch the numbers you mean what method exactly

@JoelHarmon yeah -- I think it's not peculiar to the Paladin though -- any strongly viewpoint-polarized character can easily be a jerk. (I've played Druids that would get in-your-face about undead stuff, and as was pointed out in previous conversation, strongly Evil anything or strongly CN rogues in particular are also prone to My Guy Syndrome problems)

Skyler

still relatively new to DMing

Joel Harmon

the DMG gives a way to calculate CR for individual monsters based on offense and defence capabilities, and a way to calculate CR for a group of different monsters

Skyler

@JoelHarmon but how would a PC translate into the CR

Shalvenay

@Skyler you'd have to run the custom-monster CR calculation from scratch

Skyler

12:03 AM

ill take a look into that, also how accurate do you guys find the CR

Joel Harmon

@Skyler the encounter building is on DMG 81

while the monster creation rules start on 273

BESW

....I once had a paladin and a druid face off on an ideological issue and both characters had to be forcibly retired.

Joel Harmon

basically, you'd go through the creation section with each of your characters' sheets and come up with a CR for each one

then you'd use the encounter builder to determine the CR for the group as a whole

@Skyler I have had pretty good success with it, for the parties and levels I have run

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

rpg.stackexchange.com/a/68228/16044 << see the part under "Optional Rules"

Joel Harmon

@Shalvenay I think Paladins are particularly problematic for two main reasons. First, the stereotype of the knight in shining armor seems to be a trigger for MGS. Second, paladin players seem to entirely forget the concept of redemption and just kill things instead.

@BESW That sounds very unfortunate.

Shalvenay

12:12 AM

@JoelHarmon yeah -- I'm really not sure, myself, considering how much trouble I've had with MGS-like problems in my own RP experience due to the fundamental playstyle clashes I've run into

@JoelHarmon I suspect I could play a Paladin given the right table/game and some of my past experiences with the class, but it might not be the easiest thing to work out

Joel Harmon

I tend to vacillate between thinking I could handle most any class/alignment, and thinking I'd just muck everything up.

nitsua60

@Skyler Yes. Unless you intentionally under-play the duplicates.

Miniman

@Skyler Basically, it'll be down to luck and who uses their resources better. Don't assume that they'll use theirs better, either, because they don't have the benefit of having one mind coordinating all characters.

nitsua60

@Skyler To my thinking: CR is climate, your and your players' play is the weather. Whether you, the GM, play the monster(s) as intelligent and fighting for their own lives vs. just being there to feed the players' XP-beast has a huge effect on the likelihood of combat going one way or the other.

[that's a horribly-tortured methaphor; sorry]

Joel Harmon

@Miniman Also, the benefit of dictating terms of the encounter such as terrain and what all else the players have been through that day

nitsua60

12:19 AM

@Shalvenay hiya

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 how're things going?

@nitsua60 or not necessarily out to kill the party to begin with

Miniman

The reason videogames can get away with this sort of thing is that the player is expected to be better than the AI - or, as in Zelda, it's actually just a fairly simple puzzle and not really a fight at all.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay to my thinking, any being that uses instruments capable of doing--nay, designed to do--lethal damage better be out to kill the party, or at least drive them off at fear for their lives.

Otherwise what are they, some sadist?

BESW

Relephant doppelthread.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 there are lots of things capable of doing lethal damage. some of them don't even need any other being than the PCs around in order to inflict lethal damage

hey there @ACuriousMind

ACuriousMind

12:26 AM

@Shalvenay Hi there

Shalvenay

@ACuriousMind how're things going?

ACuriousMind

I like reading this chat but I never actually played any D&D variant, so I mostly lurk

Shalvenay

@ACuriousMind I take it you haven't played any other tabletop RPG for that matter?

ACuriousMind

@Shalvenay I have extensive experience with the German The Dark Eye and less experience with FATE, Shadowrun and most recently Dungeon World

Shalvenay

@ACuriousMind ah yes :)

BESW

12:30 AM

→ 11 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Joel Harmon

have a good [morning|afternoon|evening|night}, all

Shalvenay

never done TDE or SR but have FATE and DW under my belt

BESW

→ 2 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

ACuriousMind

But I think I've never actually had a true The Dark Eye game as it's intented to be run. We mostly ignore all the detailed rules and just wing it

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 because a jumbo jet sitting on the ground could TPK a party, completely by accident...

@ACuriousMind well, most RPGs are really game construction kits.

that's certainly true of both most editions of D&D and of FATE

Miniman

12:34 AM

What does "game construction kits" mean?

Shalvenay

@Miniman that the table builds the game they want using the system (or systems) as building blocks

along with blocks of their own creation (homebrewed stuff and houserules)

ACuriousMind

Most of my games tend to end up in social interactions where no mechanics at all are applied

So saying that I play the TDE means mostly that we play in that world, and occasionally have to resolve combat by the rules but players are usually very crafty in avoiding that

Shalvenay

@ACuriousMind ah. that's not far from how a lot of old-school AD&D/2e was (and sometimes still is) played

using the mechanics mostly for the rare combats and such, and hefty helpings of Fiat Gated Ingenuity for exploration and social scenes

ACuriousMind

I've only recently started to read what other people have to say about RPGs on the net, and I'm kinda amazed how much thought many invest into it

Shalvenay

yeah, this Stack and its surrounding constellation of bloggers (Bankuei even though he scrapped his account here for who-knows-why, Magician, and and several others that pop up in our chat feeds) is a superb analytical resource for RPGs, and possibly the best one available today.

ACuriousMind

12:44 AM

@Shalvenay I read that post only days ago, and yes, FGI is what mostly characterises what happens at our tables

Miniman

@Shalvenay That's...a very rpg.se-centric statement, to say the least.

ACuriousMind

Currently I want to experiment with different systems to see how to best channel the players' creativity, since I always felt bad just to say "no, that doesn't work like that in this world" when someone had a really nice idea. Having a DW game starting from no prep at all was a valuable experience in that respect

The Oracle

1:26 AM

0

Q: Is it appropriate to ask for a GM postmortem if I'm specific about what went wrong?

I'm still new to the site and while I've found the community insanely helpful I'm unclear sometimes on what is and isn't allowed as a question. Would it be appropriate to post a question detailing a specific part of our campaign (specifically a long-running puzzle) that went less than optimally...

nitsua60

1:41 AM

Came home to a clipping from a kids' newspaper, the one my 3rd-grader's classroom stocks. With a note pinned to it: "Please read about the 'top toys.' P.S. it has Dungeons and Dragons in it!"

5

A-freaking-dorable!

BESW

Yey!

Adeptus

2:10 AM

@nitsua60 We've come a long way from the "satanic panic"

Thomas Ward

Good Chaos to you all.

@doppelgreener it was either try and seduce them or guarantee death next turn because I had been disarmed and had a magic suppression field around me. (Again, homebrewed rules)

Shalvenay

@Adeptus yup

hey there @ThomasWard

Thomas Ward

@Shalvenay hello!

nitsua60

yes, but...
The picture in the article was of the basic box-set cover, 1st printing.

Shalvenay

how're things going?

nitsua60

2:12 AM

I thought I might have it on the shelf to let him bring in for show and tell.
Nope, I've got a different printing:

"Thassalotta boob and leg for a 3rd-grade classroom...."

Next?

"What's that in the demon's hand? Uh, nope again."

&c. &c. &c.

Thanks, Gary, for all the kid-inappropriate stuff you put into this game I want to share with my kid.

BESW

...Happy Birthday, Robot!

Thomas Ward

@Shalvenay Chaotically, but this is not new :)

doppelgreener

@Miniman Suggestion noted, but it's very late and I'll be getting some rest shortly. :)

Not confident I can address what you're mentioning. You left a good link on that meta Q though.

@ThomasWard Still fabulous. I love it. I am a fan of this having happened.

Miniman

@doppelgreener Don't worry about it, I found a good link to say it all for me.

doppelgreener

Yay!

Miniman

2:24 AM

@doppelgreener The main reason I felt comfortable asking you to address it was because I've seen you deal with that exact topic a few times before :P

Thomas Ward

@doppelgreener Except now I have to write in the reason for a three-day disappearance of me, while my team heals up. That is going to be an... interesting backstory...

doppelgreener

@Miniman Oh, right, yeah, definitely could do it if it wasn't 2am and I had time to find out how the asker feels about the super specific mention; they could be suggesting it's a good thing in which case I'd agree.

Miniman

@doppelgreener Ah, right, sorry. I misread that. By my reading of the question the specific to them bit is the main reason the asker thought it was off-topic.

But anyway, go sleep.

doppelgreener

@Miniman Will do so! Goodnight. :)

Thomas Ward

@doppelgreener suffice it to say I'm gonna get the "WTF dude" stares from my campaign members and the DM when I show up to the campaign next week with the backstory xD

and good night to you :)

Shalvenay

2:38 AM

I suppose it depends on how much of a traditionalist your DM is :P

ACuriousMind

@Shalvenay What characterizes a "traditionalist" DM?

Thomas Ward

considering the number of home-grown rules just to avoid chaotic world-ending despair due to dice rolls from when I was controlled by an NPC in the one campaign? Probably not traditionalist :P

Shalvenay

@ACuriousMind think back to AD&D/2e in terms of races/classes/etal

Thomas Ward

ooo yay my food is here

Miniman

@Shalvenay What does that have to do with whether the DM is traditionalist?

ACuriousMind

2:45 AM

@Shalvenay My sole experience with AD&D 2e are the Baldur's Gate games :P

Shalvenay

@Miniman hrm...well, I suppose you have a point :P

Miniman

Insofar as terms like 'traditionalist DM' are defined, they generally have to do with DM-ing style.

Of course, no once can agree on what elements of DM-ing style are traditionalist and which aren't.

Shalvenay

3:33 AM

hey there @fectin

hey

how're things going?

pretty well. you?

3:56 AM

alright here, still figuring out random terrain gen stuff (looking into basically un-projecting terrain heightmap rasters onto a geoid :)

fectin

neat

alright, see everyone later!

Shalvenay

4:26 AM

hey there @keithcurtis

Anne Aunyme

8:33 AM

@Shalvenay I had a talk with KRyan in a separate room. We still disagree though. The GMs I speak about definitely aren't banning Paladins because of roleplay issue, they are very clear about it being a balance issue. (at our tables the class considered the most powerful are gunslinger, summoner, alchemist and paladin)

BESW

9:37 AM

@AnneAunyme I suggest not worrying about KRyan's ideas about balance. They're predicated on spherical D&D in a frictionless vacuum, and the personal choices of each group change that theoretical norm in a multitude of ways.

If he leaves comments on your answers with ideas which you don't want to incorporate into your question, flag them as obsolete, chatty, or rude, as appropriate. He may be concerned that you're Wrong On The Internet, but you don't have to return the favour. His recourse in the Stack paradigm is to downvote you and leave his own answer.

Patta

10:26 AM

@AnneAunyme what version of DnD? (I guess it could be pathfinder, too) - As KRyan is involved I would guess it's 3.5?

Anne Aunyme

The main question is about Pathfinder

but I don't think KRyan really changed his mind since 3.5

Am I the only one to think martial characters became more playable in Pathfinder?

BESW

No, but the difference is incremental, the relative power of casters vs noncasters wasn't normalised, and the systems remain overall functionally identical.

Miniman

@AnneAunyme You're not the only one to think so, but it's not the popular opinion.

BESW

10:43 AM

I think there's a difference between "martial characters are more playable" and "martial characters are more equally balanced with other options."

I think Pathfinder improved martial characters, but didn't solve (and arguably exacerbated) the caster/non-caster tier spread.

Patta

I don't have that much experience with martial characters in PF, but except for maybe the gunslinger I found them relatively weak, still.

I have next to no experience with actual DnD (except 5e) though, so I can't really contribute :D

Skyler

I get the feeling that a martial character needs to be more reactive to be able to make up for that spread. Part of the reason why I've made special physical "cantrip/superhuman feats" in my games

Ive left it open ended in hopes that my players decide to try and chain together different abilities, at which point I will reward them

BESW

There's a fundamental paradigm assumption which plagues both D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder--indeed, most D&Dlikes with 4e as a notable exception. It's that, on a mechanical level, martial ability is an enhancement of the baseline capacities available to everyone, while magical ability is an additional subsystem that adds entirely new features.

Balance, in these systems, is largely a matter of the range of options available to a character in a given situation. So long as magic offers a whole new mechanical playground while martial ability is just fiddling with what everybody's already got, casters will have more choices than martials and so will tend toward great power.

The late-edition 3.5 book Tome of Swords attempted to remedy this (I consider it an early 4e playtest) by providing martial classes with their own unique subsystem overlays.

Anne Aunyme

that's less true past the CRB in Pathfinder

pretty much every class has its special things only it can do

Skyler

@BESW tome ofo 9 swords

Anne Aunyme

10:57 AM

okay, some are pretty crappy

BESW

Same smell.

Anne Aunyme

swashbuckler for example can simply parry your touch spells

that's not just a small improvement of what everyone can do

it's a whole new thing

BESW

Yes, but it's not a subsystem of new choices like spells are.

It's a single additional power you can't choose or change.

Spells, on the other hand, you can switch 'em out per day, have extra utility by carrying around scrolls of spells you don't know, every new splat book adds to your list of choices...

Skyler

@BESW battle manuevers is both an example of it and kind of bad for martial classes at the same time

Anne Aunyme

i agree manoeuvers are brokenly bad

some of them are most of the time completely useless

(I'm looking at you, Overrun and Bull Rush)

Skyler

11:03 AM

i wonder if you could make a spell list of physical things

Anne Aunyme

it's easier ti just restrain the spell list

Now I want to try a new homerule...

Patta

@AnneAunyme sry for asking, but I only know the german version of pathfinder... CRB?

Anne Aunyme

Core Rule Book

the basic one

Skyler

@AnneAunyme I did that, I got rid of the arcane/divine twist in a low fantasy homebrew 5e

Patta

Ah, now that I reread what you said it makes sense, too :D

Thanks.

Skyler

11:05 AM

rather its kind of a life related ability to expend their energy to change the probability of the world around them behaving in certain ways

and I added a lot of spells but decreased the domain of functionality they can do or require special conditions for some of them

and then made some "cantrips" almost everybody can do

Patta

@BESW that is something that I find disappointing about 5e's martial classes, too. There is potential there, but for me, personally, it's still kind of boring compared to spellcasting. The things that fighters or monks can do are still extremely limited to me (in terms of diverse things they can do, that are not "I hit them. And next round, I hit them. And then maybe I will hit them and knock them prone."

Skyler

@Patta I think DMs just need to let their melee characters do what they want

Anne Aunyme

when you have a battlemap more interesting tactics come up

Patta

Well, then the mages will come and say "Hey, why can I only do the stuff my spells say, when the fighter can do what he wants?"

Skyler

Because the spell says what you can do

Patta

11:09 AM

@AnneAunyme sure, but this does not only improve play for martial chars, but also for mages. So, both can do more, they don't get "closer" to each other.

@Skyler: Yea, the stuff fighters can do does that, too

Skyler

I allow my spellcasters flexibility too since ive decreased the domain of abilities they can get

ACuriousMind

@Skyler That is a fix, but it probably means D&D is not actually the system you wanna play

Patta

and the fighter saying "OK, I stab the goblin in the knees, then when they drop I cut off their head" is still just a way of saying "I hit it with a sword" :D

Anne Aunyme

personally when playing a mage I care way less about the terrain

Skyler

@Patta In that case I might roll and decide to see if the goblin gets slowed the next turn

Anne Aunyme

11:11 AM

because I already have plenty of things to think about

Patta

Well, then you probably don't cast stuff like web, thorns and whatever the spells are called? :D

Combine those with terrain and they are much better

Anne Aunyme

usually you can see very quickly when these will become useful or not

Patta

@Skyler well, then the 1d3 frost ray cantrip should probably freeze enemies, huh? I mean, it is a ray of frost after all

Anne Aunyme

@Patta No, but you can use it to make your soup colder if you want

Patta

What I'm getting at is: If I allow my fighters and martial chars to do such things, my mages will be pissed about it, if they don't. And there is no rules support for what you are doing, at all. Not that that is a bad thing, depending on the players.

Anne Aunyme

11:12 AM

because its only a 1D3 frost ray cantrip

Patta

Sure, so you would allow the slowing by stabbing the knees only if the char is dealing 1d6 damage or more?

Anne Aunyme

A thing I like to do against a mage is destroying his component pouch

it's fun

Skyler

@Patta i dont really guarantee a success on things like that, but if my martial classes want to use their bodies to exercise battlefield control

first off screw grappler, athletics check and you can pin an enemy

Patta

@AnneAunyme I tend to disagree about that (if it happens often), but that is another can of worms entirely :D

BESW

@Patta This is why I liked 4e, and why I like a lot of the systems we're using now, like Fate: everybody uses the same core mechanical chassis and builds on top of it with the same tools.

Patta

11:14 AM

@Skyler, well, can your mages craft scrolls without a feat, then?

Skyler

@Patta some feats are really dumb

Patta

@BESW Yes! exactly.

Anne Aunyme

@Patta of course, moderation

Skyler

they limit the game more than add features

Anne Aunyme

completely agree with that

Patta

11:15 AM

Still, I agree with BESW on this: You don't seem to actually want to play DnD ;)

And I don't say you are wrong about the feats, on the contrary

Skyler

@Patta well when i pen the right system ill use that

ACuriousMind

@BESW I find making magic feel right in FATE very difficult. It works mechanically, but getting the flair right is hard

BESW

13th Age, maybe?

Anne Aunyme

I like L5R way of handling things

even if it's still not balanced

Skyler

for now ive got a whiny player who wont learn a new system, so he just goes around, attacks things, tanks damage, and is sorta happy with the basic

Patta

11:18 AM

@Skyler yea, I can feel you. It's a hard thing to do. You could take a look at The Dark Eye, in my opinion it balances things pretty good between martial and magic.

BESW

@Skyler roll-for-shoes!

Patta

But the core is very different from DnD, the power that a level 3 DnD hero has will probably in comparison be what you have at the end of a small campaign in TDE. And small campaign equals a good year or more of playing :D

(Also, my knowledge of other games that may be better suited is really limited...)

As is my knowledge of TDE5, but good luck finding 4.1 outside of germany...

BESW

@Patta Aaaaah! [flees screaming, clutching his three-session stand-alone adventures]

Skyler

I've done a few things with Warrior Rogue and Mage and I have a one shot for that lined up Im gonna use to beta test online play with friends

ACuriousMind

@Patta You have to know the system well to create a balanced character though. It's surprisingly easy to make a TDE character whose main trait is being incompetent

Patta

11:21 AM

Those exist, too. Well, not three sessions, more like 5 to 10, but.... :D

@ACuriousMind yes, absolutely.

Skyler

@BESW I like some structure man, though RFS sounds good for some story ideas ive got

Patta

Alright, I did not even want to start a discussion here, in the first place :D I wanted to go and eat when I started this, so... I'll be back later.

@Skyler then, TDE is the game for you. It is structure^10 :D

BESW

@ACuriousMind Urgh, I also have a deep loathing for systems with easy trap choices.

Skyler

i just realized its 3:30 and im starving

also guys, how broken would it be to give a domain cleric a few more low level spells relevant to his domain in his higher levels

like 3rd, maybe 4th level tops. Generally just new ways to do the same-ish thing

Tempest has Call Lightning, at level 15 they also get lightning bolt or something like that

(5e)

eimyr

@doppelgreener I'd like some attention, please. Just kidding, but do reply when you have a moment.

Skyler

11:34 AM

but would you beg for it

Patta

12:08 PM

@BESW well, having a "useless" character in TDE probably means that he can do some things pretty well, but those are not really important. I mean, 4.1 had skills like "grow crystals". (And I have actually seen and played an adventure where that skill comes to use. Once. With a heavy penalty :D)

eimyr

1:25 PM

@Emrakul nice owl

BlackVegetable

3:44 PM

Some days I wonder if I'm actually just a PC in some grand RPG...

Or just a minor NPC villain.

LegendaryDude

3:57 PM

@BlackVegetable I am reminded of a passage from my favorite book: "You are an experiment by the Creator of the Universe. You are the only creature in the entire Universe who has free will. You are the only one who has to figure out what to do next - and why. Everybody else is a robot, a machine. Some persons seem to like you, and others seem to hate you, and you must wonder why. They are simply liking machines and hating machines. You are pooped and demoralized."

BlackVegetable

That sounds like a recipe for a sociopath!

Except for the pooped part.

LegendaryDude

@BlackVegetable On the contrary, it's about having no control over anything but your own person.

The book is Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut, btw.

BlackVegetable

Huh, like, Wheaties?

LegendaryDude

@BlackVegetable It's taken from the Wheaties slogan but it's not related, no. The title comes from a line spoken by a waitress who works in a hotel bar -- she says it whenever she serves one of the other characters a martini.

The author makes sure to point out that he does not "[intend] to disparage [the] fine products" of General Mills, Inc.

The book (as is much of KV's work) is a satire and makes no apologies about breaking the fourth wall or other such absurdities. You, the reader, are often addressed directly in his writings.

LegendaryDude

4:26 PM

Is "table variance" a confusing term? I am getting some push back on an answer I wrote specifically because I used that phrase, and am being told this one phrase is why my answer is unacceptable. I want to make sure I'm not acting crazy or unreasonable.

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude If you mean "the sorts of variations I'd expect to see table-to-table," then I think it's perfectly clear.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 That is what I mean. Thanks.

nitsua60

(If you mean "looking up the variances in statistical populations in a book of tables," that might not be the first thing people'd think of.)

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Ironically, the feedback I'm getting is that the user thought I was referring to the randomness of rolling on (RPG) tables.

nitsua60

(E.g. from the Statistical Abstract of the United States I found a table variance of age-at-death in Connecticut of 7.3 years....)

LegendaryDude

4:28 PM

I guess it's not ironic.

But, I digress.

Adam

@LegendaryDude I think the term could reasonably bring several ideas to mind, but as long as you said it in the context of rules and their potential to change from table to table, I think the meaning should be pretty clear

LegendaryDude

@Adam I thought it was pretty clear that I was referring to results changing depending on your DM but I guess not.

"Maybe. This really depends on your DM. I might say yes, but I also might make it blow up in your face. Expect table variation."

I did edit it to be a little more obvious:

"Maybe. This really depends on your DM. I might say yes, but I also might make it blow up in your face, depending on your character's knowledge of the item and his familiarity with magic and magic items. In all cases, expect results to vary from table to table. "

Adam

Yeah, that was pretty clear the first time. At least I think so.

LegendaryDude

shrug Oh well

diego

@LegendaryDude I also think it was pretty clear, and I'm pretty sure that 'Expect table variance' is common enough that I've seen it abbreviated ETV on many forums...

Also thinking their that variance = randomness doesn't really make sense to me

LegendaryDude

4:40 PM

@diego Thanks for the feedback.

KorvinStarmast

5:19 PM

-4

Q: How long can you expect to maintain Concentration during combat?

Every spell has a listed duration in the spell description, like: Concentration, up to 1 minute. Spells that require concentration might end prematurely if the caster takes damage and fails his Constitution save to maintain concentration. • Taking damage. Whenever you take dam...

dnd-5e spells concentration

Maybe it needs more reopen votes, as the question has been upgraded since it was asked.

nitsua60

5:38 PM

@LegendaryDude that's... not at all unclear.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 I agree completely, but, user was very adamant in his comments. shrug Oh well.

nitsua60

@Miniman @KorvinStarmast when you've got a moment, how many comments do you have on-site? I try to be good about self-pruning, but the ~1000 I have still feels like it might be a lot. Am I crazily beyond the pale for a fairly-active member? (cc: anyone who feels like chiming in.)

KorvinStarmast

6:13 PM

@nitsua60 I try to self prune, but I also need to check my stats. BRB with an answer

arrgh, I am leper, unclean! My profile says that I have 1,660 Comments. I shall now begin the walk of shame, even though I do not look good naked the way Cersei Lanniser did on Game of Thrones. begins to shear off hair

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 I have 591 Comments

Adam

@nitsua60 I have 70. Granted I've only been around for about 3 months or so :3

Karelzarath

6:36 PM

Whoops. Looks like I left myself logged in here. heh

@LegendaryDude FWIW, "table variance" is a well-known term in the RPG industry (particularly organized play) and I would expect anyone in the hobby to know what it means.

LegendaryDude

@Karelzarath Yup. I explained it to the user in the comments and the response I got was basically, "I haven't heard of it so just because you have doesn't make it well-known." shrug

Karelzarath

lol

I loathe that argument.

LegendaryDude

I haven't heard of it so it must not be well known!

Lord forbid that something exists that you haven't heard of.

Karelzarath

I've never been to China, so it doesn't exist.

LegendaryDude

I used "expect table variation" three times in that answer; the complaint was (apparently) only about one of the three uses. I dunno, sometimes you just can't make people happy.

Adam

7:20 PM

@LegendaryDude but that doesn't stop us from trying

Karelzarath

@LegendaryDude Some people are just bound and determined to be miserable no matter what.

Favorite thing about this SE: stumbling upon a deeply thought-provoking question.

KorvinStarmast

8:29 PM

@Karelzarath Loved your answer about teaching a 6 year old how to use magic. I can just see the results: she learns Produce Flame. She's 6. Fireworks aplenty! "Hey, uncle Korvin, look at what I can do!"

BlackVegetable

Just don't practice around the barn!

WrongOnTheInternet

9:14 PM

What's the bias called again, where because you know something, you assume everyone else knows it?

diego

@WrongOnTheInternet I don't think it is exactly what you are thinking of but the False Consensus Effect comes pretty close

WrongOnTheInternet

Close, but that's more about beliefs. I'm talking more "I know this fact, it's obvious. Other person doesn't know obvious fact?" When that fact isn't actually obvious.

Karelzarath

I think that's the plot of Firestarter. :D

Man, combine the sacred flame cantrip with the tantrums and lack of self-control of the average 6-year-old and there would be a LOT of fatalities when someone upset them. That's got a decent shot at one-shotting a commoner.

On the flipside, a child who knows spare the dying and hugs wounded people back to life is way too cute.

LegendaryDude

@WrongOnTheInternet Curse of knowledge bias

WrongOnTheInternet

@LegendaryDude Ah, thanks. That's what it's called.

LegendaryDude

9:28 PM

It's kind of the inverse of the Dunning-Kruger effect

WrongOnTheInternet

I remember the study that found the Dunning-Kruger effect found people in the 99th percentile rated themselves, on average, in the 70th percentile

So, what you know seems obvious, and you know that there's a lot you don't know.

LegendaryDude

Yes, the Dunning-Kruger effect is quite interesting. People who know they don't know everything tend to underestimate themselves while people who aren't intelligent enough to know they don't know everything very much so over-estimate their abilities.

Even if you know there's a lot you don't know, you can tend to forget that there are others who might know even less (I am guilty of this all the time) and people easily fall into the curse of knowledge bias

WrongOnTheInternet

Hmm... and yet I'm sure there's someone who falls prey to all three at the same time. (low end of dunning-kruger, high end, and curse of knowledge)

KorvinStarmast

@Karelzarath Sacred Flame is radiant damage. Produce flame provides fire that catches things on fire. But yeah, I love the "hug them back to life" idea.

BlackVegetable

@LegendaryDude I learned about it via this sermon: lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/lord-is-it-i?lang=eng CTRL+F for "lemon juice" for the context.

Karelzarath

9:36 PM

@KorvinStarmast I'm just going off the SRD since I don't actually play 5e. What's special about radiant damage?

LegendaryDude

@Karelzarath Radiant damage doesn't light things on fire, but usually does extra damage to undead

@Karelzarath It's "holy" damage, basically.

@Karelzarath So sacred flame produces a "holy" flame that won't necessarily be utterly destructive like elemental flame is

Adam

@LegendaryDude "Overloads the soul" is I believe how the source books describe it

Karelzarath

Ah, gotcha. Would still blast a commoner to ashes, though, I'd assume, since it "sears the flesh like fire and overloads the spirit with power."

Adam

That's what it is

LegendaryDude

Sounds about right.

WrongOnTheInternet

9:39 PM

Alright, I have a question that's home-brew specific (as in, it's for a home-brewed system I run) that's similar to several editions of D&D, how should I tag it?

LegendaryDude

@WrongOnTheInternet homebrew probably fits

WrongOnTheInternet

@LegendaryDude But knowledge of early d&d and the osr in general will help, too. How do I say "aesthetically similar to B/X, but on a similar power scale to AD&D 2E"?

But in tags.

LegendaryDude

@WrongOnTheInternet dungeons-and-dragons is used to discuss D&D in general terms without specific edition

Karelzarath

As an aside, the chat is abbreviating your name to "WrongOnTheIntern", which is greatly amusing.

LegendaryDude

rpg.stackexchange.com/tags/dungeons-and-dragons/info

WrongOnTheInternet

9:42 PM

@LegendaryDude Alright, that helps. Thanks.

LegendaryDude

@WrongOnTheInternet There is a specific dnd-bx also but it might get edited out if your Q doesn't relate directly to that edition. It really depends.

OH

actually, osr would probably be a good fit as well

WrongOnTheInternet

homebrew and osr

LegendaryDude

yup

fyi you can do tags in chat by typing [tag:tag-name]

WrongOnTheInternet

Thanks

Karelzarath

@LegendaryDude Neat!

WrongOnTheInternet

9:48 PM

@Karelzarath Trying to figure out how to interpret that

BESW

Hrm. This week's Geek Night falls on the same evening as the beginning of Ayyám-i-Há. I should do something about that.

Karelzarath

10:07 PM

"I should do something about that" always sounds so ominous.

BESW

Heh. Only in the nicest way!

trogdor

10:21 PM

only in the most merciful low pain environment

BESW

[makes space for the camel]

Karelzarath

You have a more interesting social life than I, good sir.

BESW

Heheh. Baha'is are discouraged from attaching too much mandatory tradition and ritual to our Holy Days, so every family has a different way to celebrate them. My family has an Ayyám-i-Há camel. It's kinda like a Christmas tree, but you put the presents in the saddlebags.

trogdor

it's a pretty nice camel too

Karelzarath

Huh. I had no idea. That's pretty cool!

BESW

10:37 PM

My childhood was very arts-and-craftsy.

Miniman

10:57 PM

@nitsua60 1200-ish.

@nitsua60 It's not unclear anymore, but it certainly was, and it's still laughably broad. "How long can I expect to maintain concentration for on any given spell with any given character in any given situation?" - which, naturally, the self answer doesn't even try to address.

Karelzarath

His answer reminds me of the damage-per-round, class tier, posts on the character optimization boards.

I'm not certain what he hopes to gain should there even be an answer.

LegendaryDude

11:16 PM

It kinda seems like a pointless hypothetical exercise

So you've figured out how long your concentration spells will last on average based on statistical analysis, but what do you do with that info?

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Not statistical analysis, but probabilistic analysis. If OP'd done the proper statistical analysis (data from many thousands of encounters, say) then he could dismiss with all the "well, we don't know how often you'll get hit, and we'll arbitrarily cap damage at 21" business.

BESW

In theory, it gives you a measure to compare concentration-duration with fixed-duration, so you can choose spells from a position of knowledge.

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

fectin

11:59 PM

His analysis is also wrong

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