TRPG General Chat

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:13 PM

@waxeagle I can't believe he said that it should be sys anog for the running jump question

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah he's wanting to know about mechanical implications...those are at best inconstitent

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm I wish I knew where these commentators read the rules that led them to believe 4e supports pvp

Phil

I think it is just more of a general assumption because there is no explicit statement that it doesn't

Joshua Aslan Smith

I dont know you can run one pvp session and watch whichever party rolled the best init crush the other party and its there plain as day

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith lol link?

Phil

6:25 PM

yeah, but it isn't stated in the rulebook, which is the only thing a lot of people care about. Also, I think a lot of PVP doesn't devolve into stand up fights with lots of initiative. It's more sneaky killing people in their sleep

wax eagle

one of these days I'm going to find 8 players and we'll run FTD

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle rpg.stackexchange.com/a/34213/3529

@phil thats not pvp then thats skll challenge/adjucating actions in 4e

pvp in 4e would literally mean an encounter

where team x and team y start on equal sides of an arena and just rocket tag with dailies

Phil

and I think that's where the issue - different people define pvp as different things :o)

Joshua Aslan Smith

4e is also a bad system for intraparty conflict of any kind

if you want that play something like paranoia

Phil

@JoshuaAslanSmith where does it say that?

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:27 PM

4e is not a simulationist game so anysort of intraparty out of combat conflict would simply be whim of the DM

Phil

@JoshuaAslanSmith I've seen it work OK :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

the one exception being an assassin(executioner) using dailies

Phil

@JoshuaAslanSmith so it can work then

Joshua Aslan Smith

if it works its because the playgroup is willing to go along with a social construct outside the game itself

to which im wondering why youre going to play 4e because 4e is very much not about that as a designed system

Phil

and why is that a problem? there are all sorts of aspects of RPing where that is the case

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:28 PM

you can homebrew it to your content but then we stop talking about 4e and start talking about 4e homebrew xyz

Phil

but we aren't talking about homebrew

Joshua Aslan Smith

yes against the GM created world

vs. against another person

if you cant see the recipe for table drama this would create I dont know what to say

Phil

we're talking about the DM adjudicating pvp within the constraints of skill challenges and the existing framework

Joshua Aslan Smith

it works perfectly for a game like fate

because the mechanics of fate support character story interactions

Phil

meh, we'll just have to agree to disagree then :o)

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:29 PM

agreed

wax eagle

my main concern with skill based PvP in 4e is that it tends to rob players of agency.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Im only saying this because everytime Ive been apart of something like this w/4e at many different tables whether as a spectator, winner, or loser. 1 player is supremely pleased over a single die roll or GM liking their story better and the other player is supremely disaffected

@phil what wax eagle just said

wax eagle

(generally this is due to crappy GMing, if it's done properly and with the involvement and understanding of the players, that's a different thing entirely)

as Brian said, fairly recently, games are often at their best when it's the GM and the players conspiring against the PCs

Joshua Aslan Smith

if someone had very specific rules and a framework for balancing PVP in 4e I might think it would work but just using the default rules and tools available to the GM I think its a poor fit. I respect your opinion

Phil

@waxeagle THAT is the issue here - it is the GM's responsibility to adjudicate pvp in systems that don't explicitly support it

that does not mean it cannot work

it means it is difficult to do

those are two completely different things

Aaron

6:34 PM

So why doesn't pvp work well in 4e? Is it how combat works or? I have never played 4e but I am curious.

wax eagle

@Aaron pvp combat doesn't work well becuase PCs have relatively few hit points and monsters tend to have tons.

(for one thing)

Joshua Aslan Smith

I see it as the game equivalent of voiding the warranty. If you know what you are doing and have the right tools you can create something good, but if you don't youll muck it up and be worse than before. Thus I don't advocate voiding the warranty in general to people. Anything in anygame could be accomplished with the perfect GM/Table for it

wax eagle

also monster defenses are much higher than PC defenses

Phil

@JoshuaAslanSmith and that is very different from saying it never works so don't even consider doing it

Aaron

@waxeagle Like a lot of rpg video games then. PC deal high damage and have little health. While monsters do low damage but have high health.

wax eagle

6:36 PM

hangs giant caveat emptor sign

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahahaha

wax eagle

@Aaron roughly

4e's relationship with being called "videogameish" is long, tortured, and not entirely untrue

2

Joshua Aslan Smith

boardgameish is probably a better description

but also equally subjective

Phil

I know it sounds like I'm being pedantic, but its actually really important. Too many discussions with some rules systems get drowned out with something along the lines of 'You can't possibly do it/the system doesn't support it/its completely unbalanced etc' where what people actually mean is that its more difficult to do and requires a GM who understands how the system works

Aaron

I wish more monsters were like that actually. I like the monsters that are built to last longer but deal less damage aside from one big move that can be used every few rounds. Gives more strategy feel to the game.

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:38 PM

@aaron 4e is all about the strategy in combat

Aaron

pvp in pathfinder would be strait forward I think.

wax eagle

@Aaron but monster design isn't very different from PC design is it?

(4e's monster design is completely different from PC design)

Aaron

@waxeagle Yea but I am talking PC vs PC.

wax eagle

@Aaron right, but if monster design isn't all that different from PC design, than normal combat isn't all that different from PvP

Aaron

@waxeagle Monster design is similar to character design the only difference being they also have a special set of feats, abilities and such.

Metalcoder

6:41 PM

@waxeagle I've completely rewritten my question. It may be yet too broad, but I believe that its way more narrow tha it was before:

Aaron

@waxeagle I take it monster design in 4e is very different?

Metalcoder

@waxeagle Game design process to create a White-Wolf-like setting?

I noticed that there seems to be a pattern at work in most oWod/WoD settings, which when followed results in settings with the following properties:

* Each new PC already have many possible conflicts deriving from it's affiliation, lineage, species, ideology, etc.
* The PCs need not to be friends nor share an ideal to work as a cohesive group; they ally with each other for necessity or convenience.
* There is many pre-defined goals that a PC can follow (i.e Golconda, power, Diablerie, etc), and their actions results in lot…

Phil

@Metalcoder are you interested in answers that offer other settings with similar properties?

wax eagle

@Aaron yes. generally PCs have a huge stable of powers. standard monsters have 2-4. They also get boosts to "to hit" and defenses every level rather than every 2

@Metalcoder so you're looking for setting design guidelines?

Metalcoder

@Phil Yes. I really enjoy this White Wolf flavor. Vampire The Masquerade was a huge success here at Brazil

Phil

6:44 PM

@waxeagle So no then - he's looking for systems similar to oWod/WoD

Metalcoder

@waxeagle Yes, that's what I meant from the start

Phil

o

now I'm confused

are you designing your own setting/system?

wax eagle

@Phil He wants to know if White Wolf (or someone else perhaps) has published guidelines on what should exist in a setting

@Phil yes, setting

Phil

Oooooooooooooo, now I see

Metalcoder

@Phil I already have a homebrew system, what I want is a setting to use it.

Phil

6:45 PM

excuse me whilst I switch my brain on :=)

Metalcoder

You guys believe that it's good enough now? Any suggestions?

wax eagle

@Metalcoder I think that's good enough.

You've at least got something to determine what is a correct answer

Phil

@Metalcoder May I suggest you add that comment as an explicit statement somewhere as part of the question? it would make it much clearer

Metalcoder

@Phil I was thinking in completely rewrite (not delete and re-ask) that question. It is ok that way?

Phil

@Metalcoder Not sure to be honest @waxeagle?

Metalcoder

6:49 PM

@waxeagle Because that I stated that I want something like White Wolf guidelines?

wax eagle

@Phil I don't see a problem with that

@Metalcoder yes

you're looking for a specific resource (or something similar thereto)

though to be honest, your old question is at a score of 0, there's nothing wrong with editing it to reopen.

We've got the votes in this room already probably

Metalcoder

@waxeagle Ok I'll do it now

Phil

@Metalcoder thanks for being patient with us and not storming off in a huff when your question got closed :o)

Metalcoder

@waxeagle @Phil I'm really, really grateful. Thanks!!

wax eagle

@Metalcoder glad we could help. I know the system can sometimes be frustrating to move through, but overall it's designed to try to make sure you get the answers you need

Metalcoder

6:52 PM

@Phil and I thank your patience with me. I was really upset, you guys helped a lot

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith aren't there some summons that have a default action if nothing is done with them? I can't remember the name they use though

Metalcoder

@waxeagle @Phil Done!

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle this is 100 precent correct

the name of the type of summons or the name of the action for the summoned creature?

I think its instinctual action.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith name of the action

Joshua Aslan Smith

nope im wrong about that

let me try to find it

there was a frog taht worked that way

@waxeagle Instinctive Effect

Druid Attack 1Summon Giant Toad

You summon a spirit ally, a great toad that flicks its tongue to pluck a meal from among your enemies.

Daily Implement, Primal, Summoning
Standard Action Ranged 5

Effect: You summon a Medium giant toad in an unoccupied square within range. The toad has speed 5 and swim 6, and it gains a +10 bonus to Athletics checks to jump. You can give the toad the following special command. On the turn you summon the toad, you give that command as part of using this power.

wax eagle

6:59 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith you want to answer?

Joshua Aslan Smith

I did not even see the question but sure!

wax eagle

there are 2 Psion PPs that merit mention too

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/4782/… is handy too

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm are you saying I should chime in there or that its a good reference to add to my original answer? @waxeagle

wax eagle

7:14 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith was suggesting you add it to your answer on the new post

several ways to alter the action economy in those posts

Joshua Aslan Smith

yep thanks I will

lisardggY

I was listening to an Ars Magica podcast and it really hit me how different some people games are from mine.

And I'm not even talking about how they pronounce "magica" with a soft "g".

Professor Caprion

@lisardggY You were using a hard G?

lisardggY

@ProfessorCaprion It's the Latin pronunciation. :)

Professor Caprion

@lisardggY Wow, I had no idea! I just figured it'd be pronounced like "magic".

lisardggY

7:23 PM

@ProfessorCaprion I think "C" in Latin is also always a hard C, a K sound.

Well, many rules are probably different in Classical Latin, Medieval Latin, Late Latin, Church Latin, and so forth.

wax eagle

7:36 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith a bit of preaching on why breaking the action economy is a bad idea isn't out of line

(the OP does ask :))

wax eagle

7:55 PM

closus votus: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/34227/magical-elements

lisardggY

Thrown mine in.

I considered choosing "Too broad" or "Unclear what you're asking" or "Whuh?" as the close reasons, but I opted for the obvious "off topic" instead

wax eagle

@lisardggY yeah, it's definitely those things, but it's also OT :)

Professor Caprion

Aww, I had such good answers for that.

"Boron. Chlorine. Uranium...."

wax eagle

@ProfessorCaprion so magical!

lisardggY

@ProfessorCaprion Yeah, I was also all like "30 elements? Ha! Mendeleev had 3 times that!"

Professor Caprion

7:59 PM

@waxeagle Boron is like unicorn ponies in chemical form!

2

Aaron

@waxeagle I like how he didn't even list the things he already knew.

wax eagle

@ProfessorCaprion I'm partial to Sodium, magically delicious!

(at least when mixed with chlorine)

Professor Caprion

Hrm... a Chemist Mage...

lisardggY

@ProfessorCaprion That has the potential to be a particularly wearisome magic system. :)

Aaron

@waxeagle Do you think this is an ok comment as general advice on the type of question he/she asked?

I agree with @waxeagle but will also offer some advice when asking these kind of questions it helps if you actually list what you already know about to avoid getting the same knowledge you already have.

wax eagle

8:02 PM

@Aaron I wouldn't

if there was another SE to point them to, it might work, but there's nowhere else on the network where a more detailed version of the question might find a home

lisardggY

Scifi.SE, somewhat to my chagrin, does not like abstract, genre-wide discussions of tropes and common elements.

Aaron

@waxeagle What about writers.se?

lisardggY

Writers.SE would probably reject it for not focusing on the craft, but I'm not sure. I don't hang out there much.

wax eagle

@Aaron not sure if they'd be able to help, but yeah that'd be the home if there was one

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle I have voted to close

@lisardggY Among its other, many problems

trying to decide if all this should be cleaned up

lisardggY

8:14 PM

0

Q: Best or most classic Shadowrun adventure/campaign?

What are the best, most classic, most defining or most definitive adventures and campaigns for Shadowrun, any edition? When I ask this question about, for example, Warhammer FRP, the unavoidable answer is The Enemy Within, which defined and fleshed out a lot of the setting and the genre, and oft...

shadowrun

Joshua Aslan Smith

7

A: Turning a Campaign Evil Leads To "Problems"

D&D4e does not support PVP Regardless of how you ultimately decide to settle the issue; You should know that 4e does not support and was never intended as a Player vs. Player combat system. Why not try a Gray Morality game instead? Games work best when everyone one is interested Rather than ...

lisardggY

This seems rather opinion-based.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@lisardggY voted to close on opinion based

wax eagle

Blog - Stack Exchange: Gorilla vs. Shark

Jeff Atwood on August 15, 2011

Who would win in a fight between a Gorilla and a Shark?

OK, maybe you’re thinking that’s a ridiculous question. Perhaps it is. But various forms of this question get asked all the time. Consider this now-ancient Stack Overflow question titled Python v. Perl:

Okay, so I’m finally making the jump into scripting languages and I have decided to focus on either Python or Perl. The problem is: I don’t know which to cut my teeth on.

Most of my programming experience is in C, Java, and C++. There’s no specific task I would be learning Python/Perl for, other that possibly applying it to my dev work to make life easier in general. …

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle that is an excellent blog post

I think im going to ask a mod to prune out the comments about 4e pvp from my post, if they disagree with my answer they should downvote it or write an answer supporting the PVP option

ive fermented the discussion too so Im equally guilty

wax eagle

8:19 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith yep

Joshua Aslan Smith

its c ross and mxy right?

Professor Caprion

:( Harold Ramis died...

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith just flag some as obsolete, they'll come along, Brian too

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha

wax eagle

@ProfessorCaprion bummer

Professor Caprion

8:19 PM

@waxeagle It is. :( I was holding out for Ghostbusters 3.

wax eagle

@ProfessorCaprion they'd go with a younger cast...wouldn't they?

Joshua Aslan Smith

deleted my own comment and flagged all others

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith good deal

Professor Caprion

@waxeagle A prequel cast? Could work. Maybe have Bill Murray as Venkman's dad!

wax eagle

@ProfessorCaprion that'd be fun :)

or maybe like Ghost Busters the next generation and have the old guys who are still around pass the torch

Professor Caprion

8:22 PM

@waxeagle Right! If they could tastefully work Ramis' death into the script, all the better. Otherwise, maybe have just one or two of the remaining cast in it briefly.

Joshua Aslan Smith

as always @waxeagle (and @besw too just not this instance) thank you for being my stackexchange mentor

BESW

8:44 PM

I did manage to run successful PvP scenarios in 4e, but I have to dash now so I'll think about whether I can turn my experience into an answer.

BESW

10:12 PM

Say a normal delay is the size of a Twinkie. The delays on the Jubilee would be a Twinkie 35 feet long weighing approximately 200 pounds.

Tweeted by TlfTravelAlerts on February 24, 2014 at 8:34 PM

@TlfTravelAlerts That's a big Twinkie.

Tweeted by spoon579 on February 24, 2014 at 8:47 PM in reply to TlfTravelAlerts

Julix

@BESW Hi. Sorry for running off yesterday. - didn't realize how fast time had gone by

BESW

@Julix No worries, I'm not exactly omnipresent myself (despite rumours to the contrary).

Julix

Oh really? I totally believed the rumors...

BESW

I take regular breaks to sob quietly into my tea.

Julix

hehe. got a question that'll make you sob

BESW

10:16 PM

[prepares new mug of tea]

Julix

haha

Julix

10:34 PM

Alright, took me a while, but it's ready

Alex P

Umm, wtf mock armor?

Julix

It makes wizards be able to fake having heavy armor

so people don't think they're wizards

Alex P

That is like 50% of what I hate about D&D in one silly item description.

Julix

The example was a city where magic is illegal. - But I want to get our halfling sorcerer to wear that so enemy NPCs won't know who's the spell caster

@AlexP that's why I said that question might make BESW dilute the tea with tears

@Metool Hey, how goes it?

Alex P

How many ways is "mock armor" stupid? I am kinda tempted to count the ways.

Julix

10:44 PM

Did you consider it being hit by damage... and you get hurt as before... but the armor isn't damaged?

BESW

@AlexP Ooh, I'll start! The Perception DC of 20 means even the most average level 1 commoner casually walking past has a 5% chance of seeing through your 90g worth of flim-flam that should require "the closest scrutiny" to reveal.

Alex P

I was gonna go with "no way in hell a pile of painted balsa wood moves like armor."

Julix

nosonart.deviantart.com/art/Cardboard-Plate-Armor-346198604

BESW

@AlexP I'm assuming it's made by elves. Because they can do that.

Alex P

And then follow up with "Wearing a gambeson or a jack makes it hard to move your arms around and cast spells. But articulated balsa wood cosplay armor? Nope!"

Julix

10:46 PM

Well perception dc 20 only once you actually go inspecting it

Alex P

And then maybe add in "This only makes any sense in the crazy D&D world where everyone is wearing their armor around all the time, like a uniform."

Julix

I dislike the weight. I could see it if it was really light. - Gambeson did actually impede my movement

only some movements but those were impeded

BESW

@Julix If you want to be technical and go by the wording, there's no need to inspect the armour; just the person wearing it.

Julix

That's a fair point. Just owning armor should work for situational bonus. Of course I don't wear that in the city...

Alex P

I'm just gonna double-down on "This only makes any sense in the crazy D&D world where everyone is wearing their armor around all the time, like a uniform."

Julix

10:48 PM

It specifically says scrutiny... so I'm gonna go with only if you're inspecting (like a guard at the gate, who usually takes ten.)

Alex P

Another way mock armor is stupid: you all are having this argument right now, about when people should roll spot checks to determine that you are a wizard cosplaying as a fighter.

Julix

haha

I'm not having much of an argument. I'm enjoying you rant about it :D

but I doubt it'll change my mind. in a crazy world like Golarion I can imagine that kind of thing existing... Did you see the armor I linked?

BESW

Let's see. Ten lbs at roughly 3 lbs per cubic foot... that's just over three cubic feet of balsa wood.

Alex P

@BESW it includes leather, too, though

BESW

> Made from leather or thin wood such as balsa or bamboo

Alex P

10:51 PM

Oh man.

Julix

crazy... Like I said the weight seems too much, but it's for a halfling so only 5 pounds

Alex P

Also, I assure you that when you buy this thing it comes to you in the mail from Museum Replicas.

Julix

still 1.5 cube feet on on a just under 4 feet creature?

BESW

Don't get me started on whether you can make full plate cosplay out of leather.

@Julix That's not nearly enough balsa wood.

Julix

Sorry, not enough? did you read the thin part? - what is balsa wood?

BESW

10:53 PM

For convincing full plate? Not enough.

Alex P

Does it also come with an aluminum fake-sword wand holder to conceal your wand?

BESW

We're talking about full body coverage with helmet, boots, and gauntlets.

Not just a torso piece.

(And that's another thing: jointing.)

Seriously, only elves and especially talented halfling whittlers can make this junk.

Alex P

Which is ridiculous and stupid, really. Why make fake full harness when you can just make fake not-as-hard-to-fake armor?

Julix

Cause plate is intimidating... and no wizard that I know of wears it because of the horrendous armor penalties

If you're slightly experienced you know you don't even have to bother trying to hit that if you don't have a base attack bonus or what not to get past the AC... unless you count on the 5 % natural 20

BESW

Then you bump into a table (because the wooden pin on the helmet visor snapped so you can't see anything) and shatter your greave.

Roll Reflex vs splinters and Will vs lost dignity.

Phil

10:56 PM

1

Q: Most classic Shadowrun adventures/campaigns?

What are the most classic, most defining or most definitive adventures and campaigns for Shadowrun, any edition? When I ask this question about, for example, Warhammer FRP, the unavoidable answer is The Enemy Within, which defined and fleshed out a lot of the setting and the genre. For Earthdawn...

shadowrun

Julix

hehehehe - situational penalty. roll bluff to talk about how you damaged your armor in a battle and only temporarily fixed it... not very well and you're off to see a smith

Alex P

@Julix Except in D&D world plate is not exactly rare.

Phil

lol, this guy really just does not get it

Julix

In low levels it totally is! It's like 1.5 k gold!

Alex P

So 90 gp for wizard cosplay gear is a low-level item?

(I guess it's not a high-level item.)

Julix

10:58 PM

Fair point... but yeah. It's almost within starting gear range.

Alex P

(I kinda figured it's a fill-up-pages-in-the-book item, tbh.)

BESW

At level 3 a character should have equipment and gold valuing roughly 2,700g.

Alex P

It's something that only makes sense because of a confluence of lazy genre tropes. And all it does is spotlight how lazy they are.

Julix

I like genre tropes

:0

Low level creature seeing an armored guy... who then throws some spell at them. In core there's no magus so the wizard would have to have feats spent on armor or else a level in fighter or something like that. But then he'd also have to overcome the spell penalty... so he must be powerful? :_P

Alex P

@Julix Clerics are a thing, you know.

BESW

11:03 PM

Or he cast a level 1 silent image of armour on himself, and then used prestidigitation to make it look like he's tossing around magic missiles.

...or he got his fighter friend to wave his arms around while casting prestidigitation.

Julix

@AlexP dang, I forgot :D

@BESW that actually sounds awesome... but I don't think we have prestidigitation in pathfinder :_(

Alex P

Or he could spend that 90 gp on, like, three scrolls of sleep and just steamroll 3 encounters in a row.

Or he could get a very pointy hat and a very long fake beard and then everyone will know he is super powerful.

Julix

Hehehe, actually sounds like a good idea for a sorcerer with high charisma. people would believe him and leave him the hell alone... until he starts acting like a good guy, then he gets a bounty by the evils

Alex P

D&D supplement writers have this gift for creating material whose only purpose is to take something about D&D that's a bit daft but pretty harmless and easy to overlook and casting the harshest possible light on it, until it's blisteringly, painfully obvious how absolutely Not Cool At All Ever that thing is.

BESW

I think it comes of being immersed in the ethos for so long that one loses perspective, combined with the constant pressure to Make More Crunch.

Lord_Gareth

11:30 PM

Someone gave me an excuse to talk about optimized blaster sorcerers

I'm so happy

0

A: Do Sorcerers need to know a lot of attack spells?

No There's no requirement to know a lot of attack spells at all. But see below: Blasting is actually suboptimal Sorcerers get tons of mileage out of buffs (haste), debuffs (slow), summons, battlefield control options (solid fog, wall of iron) and those options are almost universally goign to b...

doppelgreener

11:44 PM

@LordGareth In that good lich question... are you saying that D&D not only has templates to apply to characters, but variant templates to apply to templates?

Lord_Gareth

@JonathanHobbs They're not...exactly templates but yes. They're called variant monsters

Things like lichfiend or burning skeleton

doppelgreener

oh. so no templateception is going on here?

BESW

I think the difference is that templates can be applied to a wide variety of characters, while each variant only works with one particular template.

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