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4:00 PM
stupid human
if he isn't listening to you, bite his ankle
 
Bob
@allquixotic Your 8 TB is PMR according to the manual.
6, 5 and 4 are TGMR, whatever that means.
No info on the externals but I suppose PMR is a safe assumption if they're doing that on the 8 TB internals?
Ohhhhhh
@allquixotic Archive one is cheaper and 5900 RPM and SMR: newegg.com/global/au/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822178748
 
ah. yeah, the SMR probably helps with production cost, and the 5900 vs. 7200 RPM is also why it's labeled "Archive"
I specifically avoided it for its low RPM, but I didn't think about the SMR issue, just lucked into the desktop PMR model :)
 
Bob
lol
I suppose SMR probably won't matter too much...
I'm mostly intending to use them for backups
But long-term unpowered reliability is an issue.
 
is PMR stable long-term unpowered?
how many years are we talking about here?
 
Bob
@allquixotic As far as I know!
@allquixotic Let's say, at least 2-3? It's not a very intensive requirement.
But I've been wary since the whole 840 EVO fiasco.
Not necessarily unpowered, more "without rewriting the data".
 
4:11 PM
true long-term storage requires tape IIRC.
 
Bob
@allquixotic I always thought magnetic HDDs were decent?
I'm not planning on stuffing them in a basement for a nuclear holocaust, but I also don't want to pull them out a year or two later and find they're unreadable :\
Goal is to chuck the large number of old backups and other data on them to free up space.
...could just buy two and mirror (and pay more). Also wouldn't do me much good if SMR is consistenly bad in storage.
@allquixotic Would be good if a LTO drive didn't cost a small fortune!
This is actually pretty awesome :P
(he's the one fixing it, not the one who broke it)
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic prelim spec sheet -- I need to check the specific makes/models of certain things. => docs.google.com/document/d/…
 
@Bob interesting
 
@allquixotic friend of mine's getting answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/…
 
Bob
@JourneymanGeek My go-to for "printer drivers won't install" is now "reinstall Windows"
I've wasted many many days snooping through procmon and driver-install logs :\
 
4:26 PM
supposed to be 0 Ohms, says it's 37000 ohms lol
i5 4690k... Haswell... hmm
LOL, case is very similar to mine :D
it'd help to know if those "Samsung SSDs" are 840 EVOs or 840 Pros or 850 EVOs or 850 PROs or (unlikely) M.2 950 Pros
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic yes, that I need to figure out tonight.
 
@Bob there was an "Anonymous Fox" viewing that pc-specs spreadsheet, was that you?! :P
 
Bob
@allquixotic LOL!
nah, I haven't opened it
 
that would have been hilarious if it called you a fox.
 
Anonymous
lol, i thought the same thing @Bob
 
Bob
4:29 PM
well, I just opened it now
 
now there's an anonymous platypus
 
Bob
I might be Anonymous Hyena
 
wrong animal, Google
 
Bob
or is that someone else
 
well I should be nonymous
I'm logged in
 
Bob
4:30 PM
lol @ "Interior LEDs" as a feature
@allquixotic I'm logged in too, but it says that joining chat makes you non-anon
I see an Anonymous Chinchilla.
 
I wonder what I am? Anonymous Platypus I suppose
 
Bob
I just see Hyena and Chinchilla.
@DavidPostill What do you see?
I think the ones you see listed are not you...
Chinchilla left
And I just did too
 
@Bob Now i see Anoymous Shrew
@Bob That must have been me. I left and came back again.
 
Bob
Ah. Would make sense, it appeared when you spoke :P
I just joined again.
I see a Lemur and Shrew.
 
I see Walrus and Shrew
Looks like the names aren't sticky
 
Bob
4:35 PM
So... now I'm Walrus and you're Lemur :P
And we have a Shrew in here.
 
Is this like those puzzles with the blind guys and colored hats?
 
@BenN Yep. Go to the link
 
I see Lemur, Shrew, and Walrus
Actually, I'm signed in, so you might see my actual name
 
Bob, you are in too many rooms. I can't see the top of your chat popup.
 
Ben is Chucababra
 
Bob
4:37 PM
@jokerdino :D
 
I AM THE WALRUS!
 
Anonymous
I am glad you are all enjoying my goodle doc
 
why am I frog now?
 
@onebree lol
We have Frog and Duck
 
4:39 PM
I signed in. Kangeroo and Llama appeared
 
I am already signed it. I am not a frog after all.
 
Bob
user image
7
 
Anonymous
Exactly 3 months
 
Bob
Oh, source of the above
 
@DavidPostill shhh
 
4:41 PM
@jokerdino Removed ;)
 
(:
 
@onebree I would say you should price that box around a grand - the case, water cooling, the CPU, the cooler, the mobo, the RAM and the storage are all pretty darn good, and still relevant - the only thing a user might want to swap out are the GPUs, and they might not even need to do that for a while yet. maybe when games start requiring 1080 performance
I'm having a hard time thinking up a starting bid price but I would set the Buy It now at $1k
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic Okay, so $1000 is a good price?
 
Anonymous
IDK how ebay works -- what is the difference between a bid price and "buy it now"?
 
4:43 PM
@onebree I'd say so - you might be able to do $1100 and if it doesn't sell re-list
 
Bob
@onebree You have a "starting bid" and "reserve price" for auctions.
 
re-listing is free for the first few I think
 
Bob
"Buy It Now" is the option where the buyer pays a set price, bypassing the auction process. It's also effectively an upper limit.
 
Buy It Now lets them immediately end the auction by buying at a price you dictate
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic that sounds great. Boyfriend originally wanted $1500, but then he newest GTXs came out
 
Bob
4:44 PM
You generally want a reserve no lower than the minimum you'd accept selling it for. Buy It Now should be higher than you'd expect. Starting bid should be pretty low (below reserve).
 
Anonymous
In ebay, how is shipping handled? Who pays for it? Because a rough estimate last night of NJ to Cali was over $75
 
Bob
Alternatively, set starting bid at your absolute minimum and forget the reserve.
 
Anonymous
@Bob so starting bid of $900, then buy it now of $1250
 
eBay will tell you if there are fees, so, for best results you might wanna set the starting Buy It Now price at $1250 or so, set the starting bid price at $900... if it doesn't move, re-list lower
 
Bob
@onebree Eh... could do that but it's not much range :P Depends how much you care about the auction process vs just offloading at BIN.
 
4:46 PM
@onebree it's up to you to decide - if you want them to pay, you can set it so that the buyer pays shipping
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic is there a way to split shipping costs between buyer and seller?
 
@onebree you can key in a fixed cost of how much shipping you want to charge to a buyer (you can set different values for domestic or international, or declare you won't ship internationally at all), so yes, if you set it lower than what you think it will cost, you will have to pick up the rest of the shipping yourself
 
Anonymous
@Bob Well he does not want to go lower than $900, because everything is still in great shape.
 
I'm wary of shipping overseas myself, so if I were you, I'd just say US & Canada - Canada is slightly more expensive but a lot less risky to deal with and cheaper than going overseas
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic That sounds great. whats an OK shipping cost? I don't think he would want to ship it outside the US/Canada, either
 
4:48 PM
@onebree depends on how fast they want it, and you can even give them multiple shipping options where you have say, UPS Ground or Next Day, and have different costs
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic cool cool cool :-)
 
key in a fairly distant zip code in the US and weigh the box and measure its dimensions and ask UPS for an estimate of how much it would cost (on their website), for different shipping options
 
Anonymous
Ebay takes 10% of items over $500 I heard
 
if you want to offer the buyer "reduced fee shipping" but not free, and not have them pick up 100% of the tab, you could offer UPS Ground for $50 flat rate in the US or $75 flat rate to Canada, for example
OR
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic Do I need to ship it in a special UPS box to do that
 
4:50 PM
offer unconditionally free shipping but jack up your starting bid price and Buy It Now price
@onebree UPS lets you use your own packaging, you just have to print a shipping label (same for everything except USPS Express, which requires their box)
 
Anonymous
Okay, I will think about these options tonight. We will discuss them
 
I tend to offer free shipping because it makes life simpler for the customer
they know what they're paying - the bid price or the Buy It Now price - and that's it
they might go "that's a little high" but then look at the free shipping and go "OOH!, nice!"
I've sold two RAID cards on there and some GPUs and had good results
nobody's given me a negative or neutral review, nor has anyone tried to return an item
 
Bob
Oh, make sure the drives are wiped properly.
 
yeah, and don't advertise it as having Windows 10 unless you're giving them a license
if you're giving them a license then you should wipe the drives and reinstall fresh
 
Anonymous
So it is best to wipe everything clean and offer no OS?
 
4:54 PM
if you offer them an OS, first keep in mind that you legally cannot re-use that OS license on another computer, so you're giving them a $XXX value (whatever the license would cost retail)
that can drive up your price but also raises your costs, unless you have another Windows or non-Windows license to run on whatever computer he's using now
 
Anonymous
I believe he is using a new Windows license on his new computer.
 
and it's entirely possible that the customer may want to use some other Windows. maybe Windows 7. maybe Windows 10 Pro. maybe Windows 8.1 Enterprise. maybe Linux! maybe they want to pirate an OS and not pay for one
 
Anonymous
So just wipe everything clean, and mention no OS is included?
 
Anonymous
@Bob Let me grab my power drill...
 
you're going to have to wipe everything clean with a block level overwrite of the data with random data to ensure it can't be recovered off the platters..... after that, if you have a spare Windows license lying around that you can just afford to give up, you can install it and activate it on the box before you hand it over to the customer
but I wouldn't raise the price significantly for providing the OS, because it's likely your customer doesn't want the OS you provide
and mention to them that they can of course wipe the OS off and put their own Windows on there
also, if you're giving them a Windows license, give them the license -- as in, actually provide them the original license key
 
Anonymous
4:57 PM
@allquixotic So he cannot wipe and reinstall the OS license he was previously using for that computer?
 
Anonymous
@allquixotic makes sense
 
Anonymous
okay, I will make sure we wipe all drives of everything tonight
 
@onebree he can reinstall the same OS license as before, sure, but don't use the same install -- see the difference?
an install and a license are two different things
an install is one particular event where you put in the installation media and run it through the routine of installing
a license is a key you get from Microsoft that entitles you to operate the software
you want to give them a fresh install (or no OS at all), but you can re-use the same license key, as long as that license key isn't activated on any other computers you own
 
Bob
@allquixotic even zero-fill would do for the hdd
 
Anonymous
okay.
 
Bob
4:59 PM
SSDs are much harder to wipe
 
Anonymous
I gotta make notes of all these things!
 
Bob
ATA Secure Erase?
Somewhat risky
 
@Bob I've read entirely contradictory thing son that
 
that Louis Rossman guy is awesome
 
Anonymous
So what is the best way to wipe HDD and SDD?
 
5:15 PM
dban
well for SSD, firing into the sun
 
Anonymous
5:34 PM
bye all, thank you for the help!
 
6:08 PM
13 hours ago, by Psycogeek
First time I saw 3D rendered lower canopy, that looked like it could choke a GPU was Farcry. I was hoping they had some "clone render" technique ??? to pull that off.
@Psycogeek: Do you happen to be referring to tessellation?
Also:
In realtime computer graphics, a texture atlas is a large image containing a collection, or "atlas", of sub-images, each of which is a texture for some part of a 2D or 3D object. The sub-textures can be rendered by modifying the texture coordinates of the object's uvmap on the atlas, essentially telling it which part of the image its texture is in. In an application where many small textures are used frequently, it is often more efficient to store the textures in a texture atlas which is treated as a single unit by the graphics hardware. In particular, because there are less rendering state changes...
 
That doesn't address the fact that you've got loads of polygons to deal with when rendering huge amounts of grass
 
6:30 PM
0
A: gzip without tar? Why are they used together?

bwDracoTraditionally, Unix systems used one program to perform one task per the Unix philosophy: tar was just a means to package multiple files into a single file, originally for tape backup (hence tar, tape archive). tar does not provide compression; the resulting uncompressed archive is typically comp...

 
@bwDraco Is there a particular reason you are promoting your answers here?
 
It's an old question. Sorry.
 
Answers always bump the question to the front page :)
 
The answer was originally written for a question that was deleted by its owner.
 
@BenN Only if you sort by "Active" ;)
 
6:33 PM
Indeed. Do people usually sort by other things?
 
@bwDraco Ah. So you found a new home for your answer ;)
 
I usually sort by newest, unanswered questions
 
@BenN I typically sort by newest so I can find questions to answer ;)
 
Right, but that's not the front page ;)
<winking intensifies>
4
 
the two of you are going to hurt your eyes if you keep winking that hard
 
6:35 PM
:p
 
lol
The Unix philosophy's pretty neat but it does introduce a bit of a learning curve.
 
Winking is a word I sometimes misread, like Banker ...
@bwDraco "The Unix Programming Environment" by Kernighan and Pike is still a good introduction even though it was written in 1983 (roughly when I first read it)
I just found a PDF, time to read it again.
 
7:52 PM
!!caat
 
@Bob I've got a 40TB ZFS array of SMR drives
@Bob Archive drives are explicitly designed for long-term archival storage, I mean it's called archive after all.
I have a few thoughts/tests about them posted here: forums.storagereview.com/index.php/topic/…
If you want to know other stuff lemme know. But for backups... that's basically exactly what they were meant for
 
@qwertyuiop mdisc.com ?
 
8:16 PM
@allquixotic $8 a month to own a stone?
 
one that won't eat your data in a decade, like even so-called "Archive" HDDs will
or even a century
 
A stone might not eat my data but I suspect it'll be easier to read a SATA drive in a century than it would be to read a proprietary stone
 
proprietary? you can read it with a standard DVD drive
 
You can read a stone with a DVD drive?
 
it's not "a stone" - did you actually read what MDisc is?
 
8:23 PM
> Your data is engraved in stone — literally.
At M-Disc's core is a stone-like, carbon compound that lasts for 1,000 years.
Your memories and precious data are literally engraved in stone.
While MDISCs may look like the DVDs and Blu-ray discs you're used to on the outside, inside they contain new technology unlike any other disc in history.
That's as far as I got tbh
I get to pay $8 to have my data literally engraved in stone
 
I think you're taking the word "literally" too literally. You're thinking of this:
What it really is, is a DVD-compatible optical disc that uses inorganic material that won't degrade as the medium for storing the data, instead of an organic dye/resin like writable DVDs.
 
Well I don't see any pictures of the actual "product" on that page or the FAQ page
@allquixotic Oh I see. Now why couldn't have they said that in the first place, instead of claiming I get to see my data literally engraved in stone.
Heck why didn't they just call it a long-life DVD
 
their marketing is shit, but apparently there is some decent R&D behind it
 
> What kind of drive will I need to read my archive? In order to access data on you MDISC archive, you’ll need an optical disc drive. Blu-ray data drives can read both MDISC DVD, and Blu-ray discs, and are recommended.
That seems to be the only bit on either page that actually says anything about the technology, and it isn't much
 
funny thing? it's not actually a knock-off. Here on the Verbatim site is the same thing: verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/m-disc
 
8:28 PM
Sadly not available in my country, but I guess a life-time life-time DVD would.. make sense
 
apparently it's either DVDs or BluRay. Take your pick.
 
Huh. And you can write them with standard BD-R drives?
 
No. Apparently, you need a specially designed drive to write. But any bog standard drive to read.
 
I see
 
There's a $70 BDXL burner that does M-Disc.
 
8:30 PM
Seems to not be a proprietary standard then, if multiple manufacturers are building for it
 
or LG licensed it
 
BDXL... jeez
Last time I had a drive DVD-DL was new
 
I am seeing Samsung M-Disc burners on Amazon, but none of them do BDXL M-Disc
they only do regular BD-R or DVD-R
 
<== owns absolutely nothing capable of reading or writing blu-rays
 
so if Sammy and LG are in on it, it's not some kind of gimmick
hopefully
 
8:32 PM
Indeed
Also if Verbatim are in on it it's probably not some kind of gimmick
Verbatim have been well known for producing some of the best quality DVD+/-R's back in the day
 
Verbatim sells the media and LG makes the best burners from my very limited research
 
> Meet the Blu-ray disc that does 4K and lasts forever (almost)


Verbatim has unveiled a new 100GB Blu-ray optical disc, the M-DISC, which promises to store data for as long as 2000 years. In other words, if the disc was burnt back in Nero's days (the Roman Emperor, not the popular DVD burning software), it would still be readable now.
So 100GB Blu-Ray == M-Disc now?
 
no, I don't think all BDXL discs are M-Disc.
 
@qwertyuiop I only know one person with a BD drive. I just borrow it from the school as needed.
 
lg.com/us/burners-drives/lg-WH16NS40-internal-blu-ray-dvd-drive <--- LG's site actually advertises "M-DISC" on the drive plate. More evidence this isn't BS
 
8:34 PM
M-DISC (Millennial Disc) is a write once optical disc technology introduced in 2009 and available as DVD and Blu-ray discs. == Overview == M-DISC's design is intended to provide greater archival media longevity. Millenniata claims that properly stored M-DISC DVD recordings will last 1000 years. While the exact properties of M-DISC are a trade secret, the patents protecting the M-DISC technology assert that the data layer is a "glassy carbon" and that the material is substantially inert to oxidation and has a melting point between 200° and 1000 °C. A stress test of the media was performed by the...
 
It comes down to this: Are they using organic dyes or inorganic/inert compounds for the layer of the disc that actually stores bits? If it's organic, it's not M-Disc and will be unreadable well before the century is over, even in the best case. If it's inorganic, the claim goes, it should last much longer.
 
I thought Hitachi were using pixie dust for the data storage layer
Honestly though, even if we have physical media that last "forever", how long have any IT standards lasted?
Is paying $500 for a pile of DVDs/Blu-Rays that have indefinite physical lifespan really that much superior to paying $500 to have your data transferred onto "current" digital media every 5 years?
 
@qwertyuiop If you have information, on a disc, that is readable by some logical, sentient organism, all it takes is mathematics, deduction, patience, and the same technology level as we have now (precision electronics, etc.) to build a device to read it, even if the specifications of BluRay are long lost to the annals of history.
 
@allquixotic Doesn't really sound quite as convenient as cloud storage tbh...
 
however I seriously doubt that, barring any kind of civilization-wide holocaust, the BluRay specifications will be lost any time soon
 
8:40 PM
Somehow clicking "Sync" seems more convenient than having to use "mathematics, deduction, patience, and the same technology level as we have now (precision electronics, etc.) to build a device to read it"
 
no, I'm saying, for ancestors centuries in the future... not for us
 
Oh
Personally I very much doubt any of my data will be of any interest to ancestors centuries in the future...
 
I disagree. If there were intact records and data from people in my family from around the year 1100, I'd be fascinated to see their pictures, read their journals, etc.
 
I don't have any "people"
 
make some ;p
 
8:42 PM
I don't want to/
Chances are if I do have kids they'll just look at my "Remembering " facebook memorial page rather than try to dig out a drive to read 50+ year old optical media
 
!!s/ancestors/descendants/
 
@DavidPostill Personally I very much doubt any of my data will be of any interest to descendants centuries in the future... (source)
 
@DavidPostill TY
 
(Accessing familial records/videos on VHS is hard enough already as it is)
I do wonder how online companies will deal with dead people in the distant future though
 
@qwertyuiop until Zuckerberg retires and the next CEO decides all those remembering pages are taking up too much space and decides to delete them. Or the whole service just decides to stop operating at all once they've become irrelevant by $NEXT_WAVE_THING
 
8:44 PM
@allquixotic Archive.org!
 
Archive.org probably stores their archives on HDDs, which will fail and lose data over time
Archive.org should put everything on M-Disc, then you'll be safe
 
lol
Or just use Backblaze for their backups
Though I don't think Backblaze does block level CRCs :-(
As it stands just because the current HDDs they're using will eventually die doesn't mean much. Every serious storage environment I know constantly migrates data onto newer/faster/bigger/better storage over time as part of standard operations
Some are anal enough to basically replace every drive the second the warranty expires
Some are stupid enough to believe <Insert major storage vendor's name>'s claim that their uber-HA-replicated storage/SAN/archive product is "so reliable it doesn't need a backup*"

*Until you encounter some firmware bug that causes it to silently delete data without being requested to do so.
 
"SMART stat 187 reports the number of reads that could not be corrected using hardware error correction code (ECC). Drives with 0 uncorrectable errors hardly ever fail, Budman said, "but once SMART 187 goes above 0, we schedule the drive for replacement." - Backblaze
2
1 read error and they replace the drive.
I was just reading all this stuff because of this question superuser.com/questions/1081935/… which has hit HNQ (after I answered it) ;)
 
@jokerdino Lmao, I just clicked him to see what you meant. Oh wow.
 
9:21 PM
Cheap trix , which media was it that (they were saying) stores in low density until the media itself fills up at that low density, then it starts shifting stuff around to pack it in as high density? Becomes more volitile as the disk fills.
 
9:45 PM
@DavidPostill thats cool, reaffirm my confidence in seagate drives . . . failing :-) newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822178742 (Ecc errors) make me wonder if the drives ram becomes (instantally) flakey when the power going to the drive is not the cleanest. Because of the variation in users experiences. pre-built Nas and Externals having some of the crappiest/leastest power supplies .
 
@Psycogeek I have a 3TB Seagate External - No problems at all.
 
Considering buying a second monitor.. Kind of looking for something with really good colour for video editing, but under $300... Is this such a thing?
 
Yea i got a lot of that segate stuff (but mostly WD), and have no problems so far, but I did entirely quit using seagate way back in time when thier reliability was worse than any of them.
 
@Psycogeek Have you read this backblaze.com/blog/3tb-hard-drive-failure?
That's the drive I have, but mine is new (2015). They seemed to have a batch of bad drives from 2011 (not the first time that's happened for a number of different manufacturers).
 
@DavidPostill now I have, crib notes would have been better :-) specific batches of drives created after a natural crisis (flood), that caused a lower supply of drives, failed in "time" sooner than expected.
 
10:01 PM
@Psycogeek lol. "They seemed to have a batch of bad drives from 2011" is not enough "crib notes" for you? :p
 
yea that
So i am writing this down, dont buy drives during a hurricane or tsunami
4
 
starred :P
 
10:16 PM
@SimonSheehan look into the IPS pannels, because they have "better" color . with notes that the cheaper ones I got here, that still look good, are more bluish because of the leds , which I call china blue. The pannel technology fixes some of the color issues, the backlighting still has to produce said colors.
Then reverse all that and remember that Everyone Else (on the whole planet :-)watching your video will be doing so on your usual monitor, so it doesnt really matter than your the only one in existance who knows what color looks like anymore .
So at the least, have some of these other "things" that put out a picture of some sort, to view what it is going to look like on them. (to me) it has been really odd the high acceptance rate for very yellowish images they have on games , pictures and videos, until you see them on a china blue monitor.
you would think we were living in the 1940's everything is sepiatone :-)
if your in the store, and can see them in action. look at how "red" is displayed. many things will show reds as more majenty, or more orangy. then look at the white for how bluish it is.
A good colored montor will look oddly yelowish, to anyone who is used to the normal stuff. but pick up any piece of "white" paper and put it up there on the screen white and . . . try and figure out what white really is ,or which one even is white anymore .
 
11:11 PM
@Psycogeek Hmm, all very fair points... good things to consider!
 
11:56 PM
I have just been restarted! This happens daily automatically, or when my owner restarts me. Ready for commands.
 
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