The Upper Room

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12:40 AM

@curiousdannii I'll open a new question. What happens when someone ask if this is a duplicate? Would the down vote from the previous question affected the new one when being merged?

David Stratton

@fredsbend Not bad, just busy. We are doing several very large projects at work, and I'm the primary IT resource on three of them, marginally involved in a few others, which digs into my non-work time, limiting how much I can participate here. I basically swing by to handle flags and do cleanup when I can, but haven't had time to do much else on the site. How have you been?

fredsbend

@DavidStratton About the same. Busy, but on SE a little here and there.

My dad and boss is retiring, so in addition to already handling most things, I'm now handling everything.

Plus gearing up for the busy season which starts next month and goes through June.

6 hours later…

curiousdannii

6:27 AM

@AdithiaKusno If the new question is asked along the lines we've all been suggesting then it won't be a duplicate

6 hours later…

LCIII

12:20 PM

Any of you guys ever been to IHOPKC (International House of Prayer, Kansas City) or any other IHOP?

I keep hearing polarized views of them. They're either the best thing ever or their bringing the church to hell...

A lot of my friends are getting into Mike Bickle teachings, and the concept of a 24/7 prayer and worship center sounds nice I suppose.

I guess I've always given myself a solid 6/10 on the charismatic scale....

wax eagle

@LCIII only here. I feel like @El'endiaStarman might have mentioned one?

El'endia Starman

1:20 PM

@waxeagle I don't think I've ever actually gone to an IHOP. I have listened to their worship sessions online though, and looked up the locations of local IHOPs, and I've gone to a local group that had a similar goal (24/7 worship/prayer, though they haven't managed to achieve it yet).

Ask Elisha

1:52 PM

Q: Did the biblical apostle James visit Ireland?

I remember reading in a magazine that the biblical apostle James visited Ireland 400 years before Saint Patrick. Is it true that he went on a mission to Northern Ireland? Forgive me if I overlooked something but if I google anything about the apostle James in Ireland a bunch of Saint Patrick da...

1 hour later…

Adithia Kusno

3:22 PM

@curiousdannii Even though it's related?

Bruce Alderman

4:06 PM

@LCIII I live in the Kansas City area, and have not heard many good things about IHOP. People who have left IHOP consistently complain about its cult-like authoritarianism ( examples: 1 2 3 ).

There was a major controversy a couple years ago after a woman associated with IHOP committed suicide. Another member of her prayer group later confessed to murdering her, but then recanted before his trial.

All charges were dropped, because outside of his confession there was no evidence to indicate she had been murdered.

And then, of course, a lot of people have concerns about IHOP's teaching.

Caleb

4:26 PM

I think I'll stick to pancakes.

Mr. Bultitude

@Caleb You could still get murdered. Nothing is safe.

Caleb

@Mr.Bultitude I'll take my chances with the pancakes.

2 hours later…

LCIII

6:46 PM

I have this unsettling feeling that IHOP style christianity will be more popular in the next generation of church. Where Jesus and especially the Holy Spirit becomes more of a force or experience rather than a person.

Adithia Kusno

7:08 PM

@AskElisha We Catholic and Orthodox follow the Holy Tradition. St. James a son of St. Joseph through Salome his first wife before betrothed to the Theotokos went to Ireland and Scotland along with St. Joseph of Arimathea his uncle and the Lord when he was a teenager. Later he went to Spain as ordered by the Lord before martyred by Jews as recorded by Josephus. Two people who answered that question have no idea that this tradition was kept in an English hymn. youtu.be/WAA0A5WpZE4

Does Elisha speak?

7:40 PM

Q: Seeking advice to reopen a question

Recently my question, "Did Christ assume our fallen humanity?" was closed. I need an input on how to reopen that question. Should I change it into, "Did the early Church Fathers believe Christ assumed our fallen humanity?" I wonder why my question was closed for being an opinion based? Would then...

discussion

2 hours later…

Bruce Alderman

10:05 PM

@AdithiaKusno Hymns are not generally considered valid sources of historical information. If there had been any mention by the early Church Fathers of James traveling to Ireland, I would have answered differently.

fredsbend

@AdithiaKusno The difference between a history site and religion site.

As far as secular historians are concerned, a tradition that is followed today is not credible evidence of an event from 2000 years ago. Such a thing is a matter of faith and if to be discussed, is better discusses on a site about that faith.

If the question were asked on this site, I would expect a good answer to mention the tradition, but still also mention that the tradition is the only "evidence" of the event taking place.

@LCIII IHOP? You mean the pancake place?

I don't get the metaphor.

lol. Just read the preceding messages.

I'm with Caleb. Let's go get pancakes.

@LCIII I personally think that the Bible doesn't support the notion well that the Spirit of God, as many deem is the Holy Spirit in their Trinitarian view, is a person with person-like characteristics.

I actually kind of get the impression that the NT talks about God as a force more than a person, and this idea really took off with the Gnostics.

Though they went pretty far, it's easy to trace a line back to the earlier, canonized NT writings.

Dang-it! What I wouldn't give for pancakes right now!

Bruce Alderman

10:24 PM

@fredsbend It also matters when the teaching first entered tradition. If, for example, Irenaeus (2nd century) had said something about James going to Ireland, that's going to carry some weight because that's before the birth of St. Patrick, so we would know the idea of Christians in Ireland predated Patrick. (Now, that doesn't prove they were there, but it gets us pretty close.)

But as I said on the history site, the earliest reference to James in Ireland comes from a 17th century Spanish source. That's far too late to be taken seriously by historians.

fredsbend

@BruceAlderman Indubitably.

Q: Did those feet in ancient time walk upon England's mountains green?

William Blake's preface to Milton, commonly called Jerusalem and set to a famous hymn tune by Hubert Parry, questions whether the child Jesus might have visited England. And did those feet in ancient time Walk upon England's mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On England's pl...