The Upper Room

12:37 AM

@dancek What kind of answer are you expecting on the Hebrews question?

1:09 AM

@a_hardin I'd like to at least hear why Hebrews is attributed to Paul by some, and if that's believable.

@a_hardin I left discussion of other possible authors out on purpose, as it seemed to me that all the theories are just theories.

a_hardin

@dancek ah, that makes sense

For some reason I was thinking you were asking "Who wrote Hebrews?"

which I didn't think would be very answerable :P

I could probably learn how to better read questions

Richard

1:37 AM

@dancek Fair enough. I've removed the link. But the original question here was "Is premarital sex fornication?" The big bold line in the middle of the post was "What's the proof that premarital sex is an instance of fornication?" Can you understand my view that this does not appear to be an expert level question?

wax eagle

1

Q: How to present the Gospel to an atheist?

Atheists and agnostics generally accept scientific evidence and theories above religious evidence and theories. Many are set in their ways, but many are open to new ideas. I have many friends who are not yet set in their ways that I would like to share the Gospel to. I do not want to push any si...

I don't think this question is particularly constructive. Comments?

Flimzy

I agree. The answer depends very much on the athiest.

Although I wonder if some general answers can be provided anyway.

El'endia Starman

I'm posting a general answer that should cover most cases.

It's all about the Roman Road... :P :D

Flimzy

1:54 AM

HRm

I don't like the Roman Road

especially when dealing with athiests

although I'm also working on a general answer

El'endia Starman

I think the asker is implying that the other people may be quite receptive to it and he just doesn't know how to share it...

Methinks...

djeikyb

Yeahhhh...Roman Road isn't gonna convince atheists...

El'endia Starman

Hmm...not quite. However, he DOES mention "inviting them to Church, giving them a Bible, and inviting them to outings with other Christians"...

wax eagle

Sorry guys, I'm still vtc, I don't think a "How do I present the gospel" or "How do I present the gospel to x group" are goign to be worth while

El'endia Starman

Huh. Yeah, seems like I slightly misread the question.

wax eagle

1:58 AM

The issue is that there isn't a right way to do it, and its going to be different for everyone

El'endia Starman

However, half of my answer is still good(ish)! :P

Flimzy

well I posted my answer... before it's closed

I may update it yet :)

Is it bad to VtC and upvote the same question?

El'endia Starman

@Flimzy LOL. Well, I'd say it's not as bad as answering the question and then casting the final close vote... :P

Flimzy

haha

Well, I VtC'ed, answered, and up-voted... in that order

El'endia Starman

LOL...

Well...whaddya know...I can close the question...

...answered, up-voted, and closed. :P

wax eagle

2:07 AM

@Flimzy yes? if your closing it why would you upvote?

El'endia Starman

Now is a good time for me to mention Romans 2:1 (NLT)..."You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. "

@Richard: Sowwy for calling you out earlier! :P

Flimzy

@waxeagle: Well, I like to upvote every question I answer... if it's worth me answering it, it was worth asking... at least that's my theory.

@waxeagle: I'm not sure how to reconcile that with my VtC... maybe I changed my mind.

I suppose "Is it worth asking?" (the reason I upvoted) is different than "Is it good for this site format?" (which is the reason I VtCed)

wax eagle

@Flimzy fair enough, I try not to answer if I vtc...but then again I usually make the vtc decision rather quickly...

when I only have 1 vote out of 5 I find it easy to cast the vote...when its a supervote I am much, much, much more hesitant to cast it.

El'endia Starman

Hey @Flimzy: Your answer was accepted! applause :P

Flimzy

haha

I saw that

Maybe that's a motivation to answer and VtC... to increase the chances of being accepted

I think I'll go VtC all the questions I've answered now....

El'endia Starman

2:18 AM

@Flimzy chuckle

El'endia Starman

3:19 AM

Hmm. Two downvotes and a close vote in the past 24 hours on me. I feel like there's someone out to get at least me...

djeikyb

3:36 AM

psh. my first day i had like twenty downvotes and three or four closed or controversial questions

; p

El'endia Starman

@djeikyb chuckle My point is that my last received downvote was August 26th...12 days ago.

@djeikyb: Actually, you've only had 2 downvotes thus far.

djeikyb

do downvotes on closed questions not count?

maybe i just have a martyr complex

El'endia Starman

@djeikyb Looks like it. You have 2 closed questions and your two downvotes came from those.

djeikyb

oh. haha, i guess it felt worse than it was

El'endia Starman

@djeikyb I know how it feels. ;P

djeikyb

3:45 AM

; p

what did you get downvoted?

El'endia Starman

Downvote and close vote cast on christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/708/… and downvote cast on christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/195/…

djeikyb

i kinda liked the mary one. maybe

i'd have to think about it more

but my initial reaction is "interesting"

hm. same goes for the souls one

way better than most all of my questions

El'endia Starman

See what I mean?!? :P

More seriously, two downvotes and a close vote in the past 24 hours is rather unusual in comparison to the rest of my rep history.

El'endia Starman

4:29 AM

@HedgeMage: Hedge!

HedgeMage

4:40 AM

Hi, @ElendiaStarman

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage What brings you here? :P

HedgeMage

@ElendiaStarman Just hanging out being the watchful Community Manager as always.

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage thumbs-up :D

HedgeMage

:)

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage: How do you think the beta's going so far?

HedgeMage

4:46 AM

@ElendiaStarman A lot better than I'd expected. If you all can just get the question quality up this site might go somewhere. :)

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage Sweet! As for question quality, the highly active members (including me) are working on that. :D

HedgeMage

I'm glad to hear it!

CiscoIPPhone

7:29 AM

@waxeagle I know the best way to convince an atheist. Immerse them in the gospel when they are young and don't have the mental faculties to question things presented to them by close family or friends. Always construe Christianity as something good and something virtuous. Before they know it poof they are Christians.

CiscoIPPhone

7:43 AM

Also known as indoctrination or brainwashing. It also works for any belief system.

Caleb

We don't believe that's a good way :)

I don't believe in the age of accountability, but one defense for it is without being old enough to weigh some evidence and make a personal choice, you can't really be considered Christian.

In fact I believe there is a sense in which being raised in a Christian environment is a hindrance to really understand the faith. I'm not saying it's not a blessing too, but it because something you have to overcome in order to really understand it.

A lot of folks that come to faith later in life have a much more "real" grasp of the core nature of Christianity than people (like me) steeped in it from early on.

dancek

9:04 AM

@Richard I do understand the problem with the original wording. I felt really sorry for that, because I had misunderstood fornication. Its translation in my native language doesn't really mean anything outside the Bible, and the liberals here are questioning the meaning of both porneia and the translated word (and there are a lot of them liberals, including most bishops of the state church of Finland).

@Richard I'm against premarital sex myself and already married. I do know the waiting isn't easy, but even more I know that's no reason to rewrite the Bible.

CiscoIPPhone

11:09 AM

I just asked a question but I think I just realised what the answer is.

wax eagle

11:28 AM

@CiscoIPPhone man, if this actually worked it'd be great

wax eagle

11:38 AM

@CiscoIPPhone have you ever taken a high level lit course?

CiscoIPPhone

@waxeagle I did take English for my GCSEs, where we studied some Shakespeare. I don't think that would be considered high level (unsure)

Tangetially, what is the opposite of 'obvious'?

wax eagle

@CiscoIPPhone thats good enough, how much time/energy did you guys spend trying to figure out what Shakespeare was saying and meant?

@CiscoIPPhone depends, what are you trying to communicate?

obscured? unclear? dubious?

CiscoIPPhone

11:54 AM

@waxeagle I was trying to reword the last sentence of my answer to say something like: "regardless of how (un-obvious) that interpretation" is

@waxeagle Yes we did spend a lot of time trying to understand what he meant. I see your point.

wax eagle

@CiscoIPPhone depending on what you are trying to say, dubious or obscure would work (if you want it to be doubtful dubious. If you want hidden, obscure)

@CiscoIPPhone my answer kind of unpacks all of that

even if you just look at the Bible as literature, there is a ton there to read about and understand. You don't even have to consider it as a religious text. The Poetry books for instance are an excellent study on ancient hebrew poetry

@dancek thanks for the edit...grammar isn't my strong suit :)

@CiscoIPPhone thanks for making #600 a worthwhile question.

Richard

12:26 PM

I'm not saying that this is definite, but it sure seems like someone is intentionally downvoting my questions. 5 downvotes on questions within a few minutes of each other. Nice.

It's only 2rep a pop, so I don't really care that much, but still... Kind of annoying.

wax eagle

@Richard meh, downvote trolls are going to be common here, I wouldn't worry about it, there are some safeguards that if it becomes too systematic (like you are specifically targeted, or they are obviously just trolling) the system will step in....

DTest

@Richard yeah, luckily SE will probably reverse those

Richard

Oops 4 downvotes, not 5. I need some coffee. ;)

wax eagle

@Richard I'm kinda meh about it, downvotes are just going to be part of what happens around here....

I got one overnight, not sure if someone opposed my question or thought it was too simple, no comment so I don't know

Richard

@waxeagle Yeah, pretty much. I'm not worried about it. But it's kind of like accidentally walking through a swarm of gnats. Annoying for a couple seconds until you forget about it.

wax eagle

12:32 PM

@Richard yup

wow I only have 450 fewer rep here than I do on gardening...

Richard

@waxeagle Wow. Yeah, the rep flows swiftly here. It took me forever to hit 2K at dba, but here 2K was almost an afterthought.

wax eagle

@Richard stackexchange.com/users/…

the slope on my rep curve here is huge, versus a nice gradual curve on my other two sites :)

Richard

Wow, that's crazy. That graph feature is neat!

wax eagle

@Richard yeah, its a cool way to see how fast your a accumulating rep...

@Richard forever to you <> forever to me :). Took me like 8 mos to get to 3k on RPG...

Richard

Yeah, I was just looking at my little graph. It's not until the very last little bit that I actually have rep. Partially it's skewed because I never could get into Stack Overflow.

DTest

12:42 PM

looks painfully slow to get rep on SO :D

wax eagle

@Richard yeah, you can click on a place in the graph and drag to the right to zoom in on that section.

Richard

@waxeagle Oh yeah! That makes it look better. That really shows that my dba account has suffered from my account here, though. ;)

wax eagle

@Richard :) my RP and gardening lines are nearly flat since the launch here...both those sites are super quiet right now

dancek

4

Q: What is the argument for papal succession?

First off, I do not mean for this question to sound as an attack on the Catholic Church. I would like to know the stance of the church regarding this. I found this resource, which documents the succession of the Pope, but there appear to be some significant holes (258 AD, 304 AD, etc). I guess ...

catholicism pope

this makes me wanna ask who the Mormon leader was after Joseph Smith, and which is the correct Mormon church etc

it'd easily get flammatory though, would have to research it some and ask quite specifically

wax eagle

@dancek this seems like an invitation for a Protestant v Catholic flame war. Lets keep our guard up.

Richard

12:55 PM

@dancek Brigham Young was. He was also the guy who got rid of polygamy at the urging of the United States.

dancek

@waxeagle yep, and even as a protestant I think "the Catholic Church holds edicts and creeds to be of equal or similar weight as the Bible" is just not true

Richard

Having said that, there was a smaller group that followed Joseph Smith, Jr. They've branched off and became the Reformed Latter Day Saints.

dancek

@Richard exactly...

gotta run now ->

wax eagle

@dancek I just flagged asking for the first several comment to be removed.

whoah, earth shaking, for the first time in history, Mason didn't rep cap yesterday.

wait, he didn't on the 4th either, nm

wax eagle

1:29 PM

2

Q: What part did the Church play in slavery in the New World?

When the New World was discovered, slavery was virtually unknown in Europe. Soon after the discovery of the New World, European powers began to make slaves there, and to transport slaves from Africa to the Americas. What part did the church (mainly the Roman Catholic church, which dominated Europ...

history

is this really a useful question?

Richard

It seems off-topic to me. Off-topic, not useful... yeah.

wax eagle

@Richard great question for [history.se] if it ever launches

Richard

Yeah, it would be!

DTest

oh no, not another SE site that would suck up all my time :/

wax eagle

@DTest :P

DTest

1:52 PM

@waxeagle the vtc's are all over the place on that question

wax eagle

@DTest I'm thinking about vtc'ing the baptist one too

DTest

@waxeagle which one?

wax eagle

1

Q: Northern and Southern Baptists

What are the principal differences between the Southern Baptist and American Baptist denominations in the US?

denomination baptist

I was pretty sure we said Compare/Contrast was off topic

DTest

Hmm, can't find anything on meta about it, and it seems like a specific enough question to me. I'd lean towards not closing when in doubt.

dancek

0

Q: Are questions on what Christians have done in history on-topic?

I don't think we've really decided what should be done to questions like What part did the Church play in slavery in the New World? We did have Should history questions be on topic? but that only discusses questions more directly related to Christianity. What should we do about questions about ...

discussion on-topic-definition

Richard

2:02 PM

@waxeagle An older, similar question:

3

Q: What are the major differences between Eastern and Western Orthodox Christianities?

I've looked around but can't really find a proper answer. Would anyone mind clarifying this for me? I'm a Western Orthodox Christian, and I attended the baptism of my young cousin on Sunday, and this question just popped into my head.

orthodox

wax eagle

@Richard I don't think I'm a fan of that one either :)

although the close vote isn't mine

DTest

@waxeagle I don't mind them, personally. If they're asking for a factual answer, that's fine. If the answers start getting to be 'West Orthodox is right because X', we can delete those answers.

wax eagle

@DTest fair enough. Also compare/contrast within a denom is probably fine. Compare/Contrast on something like protestant/catholic or mormon/catholic is likely close bait

DTest

@waxeagle agree.

dancek

@Richard +1 for the polygamy question, very nice! I think you worded it well enough not to be flammatory, but it's certainly a difficult question (at least for those Mormon missionaries I've met)

DTest

2:14 PM

@Richard I specifically didn't answer the 'what part does sex play in marriage' part of your question. I'll let the french answer that: telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8741895/…

Richard

@DTest Wow. 21 years of marriage. Is that how long it takes before a man snaps? I'll be looking forward to that time, then. ;)

@dancek Thanks. It is a difficult question to ask and to answer. I partially asked it to try to catch anyone that says "Polygamy is wrong!" That's clearly not the viewpoint of the asker

I think now is the time to ask questions like this so we can establish how we want to handle these types of questions and how we should handle the viewpoint issue

wax eagle

2:36 PM

beware all:

rabbit

1

judaism sabbath jesus crucifixion biblical-basis disciple lds

Richard

Yeah I saw that. Another trouble maker.

wax eagle

@Richard I just flagged all of his answers :)...

and downvoted too...just for fun

DTest

lol

wax eagle

wouldn't be surprised if its rpeg again...

Richard

Hmm... Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me either.

DTest

2:40 PM

@waxeagle i'm running out of flags for the day :/

wax eagle

@DTest :) I've already got deputy here...working on Marshall

DTest

@waxeagle grats. do you flag when you vtc or just flag answers?

wax eagle

@DTest sometimes flag questions, usually only if they are bad, but regularly flag answers

comments as well, particularly long drawn out debates

wow 19 downvotes in 10 minutes. this community is effective :)

rolls to resist feeding troll

d20 -> 20 resists

Caleb

No that isn't rpeg, the witting style is pretty different, but it could be somebody inspired by his escape.

Richard

I've decided to put the "asker viewpoint issue" to the test:

0

Q: What passages support that God once walked the earth as a man?

I've heard it said that God is eternal. I've not found anything in the bible to back this up, however. The is as close as I could come: Jeremiah 10:10a (NWT) But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite. But if he was eternal, wouldn't that mean that ...

bible lds

(since now is the time to solidify these types of things.)

Jonathon Byrd

2:56 PM

0

A: How is Christ's death so significant?

You are nothing You have been created for Christ, a gift from the Father to the Son. And you have turned your back on your creator and become His enemy. You would rather love this world and everything in it then even show respect to your creator. James 4:4 NIV You adulterous people, don...

I was getting emotional and the preacher inside of me was starting to sing on this one

It drives me mad that the "how does Jesus get followers so easy" is catching more interest then this question.

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd I'm honestly more intrigued by that one, I know the answer to the first, but the latter is a bit more of a mystery.

Richard

@waxeagle I agree. I think it's the uniqueness of the question that makes people interested. The significance of Christ's death is huge and most people know this and won't disagree. But the idea that Jesus got followers easily might be novel to some people. It's the novelty that attracts.

Caleb

...so we should write some really good answers there.

wax eagle

note to all. rabbit's answers have been deleted. recalc as appropriate.

christianity.stackexchange.com/reputation

Jonathon Byrd

@Caleb ditto

@waxeagle That's interesting. I just hit the recalc button and my rep jumped 100 points

wax eagle

3:15 PM

@JonathonByrd yeah downvotes start to add up, the ones you give on answers and the ones you receive :)

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle btw, why did all of his answers get deleted?

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd I flagged them all (at one point he had acquired 19 downvotes)...

(I doubt I was the only one to flag them)

DTest

@waxeagle that's a neat report

wax eagle

@DTest yeah, don't miss the recalc button at the bottom...

dancek

hmm, clicked recalc and got +6 rep (but today's rep stayed the same)

Jonathon Byrd

3:55 PM

-1

A: What should a Christian do when he finds out that his Christian friend has turned away from God?

Ezekiel 3:20 (NKJV) 20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered...

so where in the faq does it actually say that I get docked for answering question that will be closed?

I understand that everybody voted against pastoral questions in the meta

HedgeMage

4:07 PM

"docked"?? Are you implying that someone messed with your paycheck?

Adam Robinson

0

A: How do Christians understand the existence of God in relation to the scientific concept of energy?

First, I concur with most of the answers here: fundamentally, God is not a part of the universe, nor is He subject to its laws. His interaction is at-will and in any way that he chooses. Such interaction will involve energy of some kind, but it is not necessarily energy that is transformed from o...

Anyone mind providing some feedback?

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd I don't know, I have issues with folks up-voting and answering, but not strong enough ones to actually dv someone

Richard

@JonathonByrd That's an interesting question. I've answered questions and then followed up with a VtC before!

HedgeMage

The answer+VtC response works on bigger sites, but it is detrimental on one this small where such a large proportion of users don't yet grok the format.

Richard

@JonathonByrd Aaah.. I see the point. He wasn't saying that answering a question that will be closed is wrong in general, but for pastoral questions specifically: (meta)

HedgeMage

4:11 PM

Doing it on the trilogy makes sense on occasion, but on a site as young as Christianity, it only encourages more of that type of question, to the point that it may overwhelm the site.

Though I have to say.. .that's the only question on Christianity so far that I've actually found offensive.

/me shudders

(well, apart from the obviously retarded Survivor questions)

Jonathon Byrd

@Richard thats what i just did too :)

@HedgeMage you find that question offensive?

Richard

@HedgeMage I try not to do it too often. But since some guidelines are still being established, I've actually answered and then realized we shouldn't have these types of questions. Here is an example.

Jonathon Byrd

@caleb, looks like you're recent activity this week has put you in second place for rep. Keep up the good work man.

HedgeMage

@JonathonByrd I do. I get that it wasn't meant that way... the OP is probably thinking "OMG my friend is going to BURN IN HELL -- I must run to his rescue!" -- but there's a bigotry that comes with that. It's based on a core assumption that people who don't follow the One Right Way are not only Wrong, but don't have a right to decide for themselves which path they want to gamble on, whether they are correct or not.

2

Jonathon Byrd

I want to ask this as my next question "I believe that Faith + Truth is the Way, how am I wrong?"

will this just be non-constructive?

Flimzy

4:20 PM

I think you need to word that.

er

re-word

HedgeMage

It's creepy enough when Christians try to convert nonbelievers they don't know well -- I tend to chalk it up to total ignorance of other cultures, and the effects that their actions will have therein -- but the idea of trying to convert a friend who already knew your church and chose to leave is pretty... something. I don't even have the words.

@JonathonByrd I don't even know what you are asking.

DTest

@jonathonbyrd that would be closed as non-constructive...seems targeted non-christians than a specific question about christianity.

Flimzy

I think "I believe X, why am I wrong?" is just a bad question format, regardless of the content

4

DTest

@flimzy agree

Richard

@Flimzy I agree. It seems argumentative.

Flimzy

4:23 PM

It's clearly rhetorical, and could be viewed as a troll

wax eagle

@HedgeMage yeah, its not a good situation, and you are much better off just loving the person and hoping he comes back then cramming something down their throat they have already rejected...

Flimzy

bbl

DTest

"Achieved a flag weight of 749 by reviewing and flagging appropriately" 749 seems like a random number...!

Richard

@HedgeMage I think that we are called to try to reach them. If they continue to resist, then we are to shun them. Matthew 18:15-17

@DTest It's probably the maximum.

DTest

@richard well right, still seems an odd number to be a maximum

perhaps 750 is reserved for special powers?

Richard

4:28 PM

@DTest True. Good point. I can almost imagine that conversation. boss "Yeah, just set the max to 750." newbie "OK, Boss" if (tag_weight >= 750) {tag_weight = 749;}

Whoops!

Adam Robinson

232

Q: What is flag weight?

Flag weight can be viewed in user profiles. What is flag weight? Who can view my flag weight? When can I view my own flag weight? What are the possible values of flag weight? Why is my flag weight not an integer? What are the benefits of a high flag weight? Return to FAQ index

support faq profile-page flag-weight

HedgeMage

@Richard Yes, I get that there are passages in the Bible that can and have been interpreted as "convert everyone at all costs" -- I'm just not sure how that attitude can be good for the person doing the converting, the person being converted (or choosing not to), the church, God, or anyone else.

Adam Robinson

Specifically, meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/84300/flag-weight-750-reached/…

HedgeMage

If nothing else, proselytizing and intolerance are near the top reasons why Christians are feared by outsiders... not a great way to grow your ranks if that's your goal.

DTest

@adamrobinson nice links, thanks

@hedgemage there are definitely wrong ways to do it, but that's a matter of opinion. IE fire+brimstone speeches are "the wrong way"™, imo

Richard

4:32 PM

@AdamRobinson Aah, so it's not some max. Nice link.

@DTest I think the wrong way may vary by person. Fire & brimstone does have it's place, but it's more for the... more emotionally-driven people.

DTest

that almost seems like an interesting question, but it's probably not-constructive :D

HedgeMage

Yeah, I'd never ask it on the site.

Richard

Agreed

HedgeMage

I'm not sure there's a good way to try to tell someone that none of their beliefs matter, because of $thing (which you can't prove), that they must turn their entire life around and blindly follow the edicts of a book or a religious leader. This isn't specific to Christianity -- forced/pressured conversion (as opposed to conversion initiated by the individual's own search for Truth) doesn't seem to reliably end well for anyone involved.

Richard

@HedgeMage I don't think we should ever tell someone that their beliefs don't matter or that they should blindly follow someone/thing. It's logical arguments and emotional drawing (from God--not from us, I might add) that causes people to change their beliefs. Forced anything is not a good idea.

wax eagle

4:46 PM

@Richard I will also say that the efficacy of logical arguments may also be dubious (in other words, its a complete God thing)...

Richard

Also, I agree that the church has a bad name for being judgemental, hypocritical, and (quite frankly) cruel. It's a difficult challenge trying to teach a "rightness" doctrine and get people to change their ways.

@waxeagle Yeah, I agree with that completely. It depends on the topic and how entrenched their are in their beliefs, though. If people are just a little off or aren't steadfast in their belief, they might be persuaded through logic. But if they are hard-lined about something, there's nothing we can do. Good point.

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle However, logical arguments are great for removing logical (or scientific) objections, which is what a great number of objections tend to be.

HedgeMage

@Richard That is Christianity's image here in the outside world, and I can't see any way to change that while arguing with people's beliefs or trying to pressure (or "encourage" or however you wan to phrase it) conversion in any way.

@Richard While IME it's the fringe that is violent in the US, mainstream Christianity does spend a lot of time trying to guilt, argue, wear down, or legislate others into at least professing Christian beliefs (usually while not following their own dictates). I can't help but wonder what makes them want to spend their lives that way.

Last I checked, Jesus just wandered around being Jesus, he didn't act like a badly-stereotyped used car salesman, or imprison people who disagreed with him.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage yeah our methods tend to suck...

Richard

Yeah, there would be a whole movement throughout Christianity if we could find a way to convert people without being confrontational.

HedgeMage

4:54 PM

Even here in Indianapolis, I've had to threaten use of Castle Doctrine to remove door-to-door proselytizers from my porch. (i.e. if you won't leave my home, and are preventing me from leaving my home, I get to shoot you)

@Richard Again, you assume that one person can convert another person. Unless one is severely psychologically damaged to begin with, conversion comes from a personal journey, not any outside influence.

By the way, what started the whole door-to-door conversion attempts thing anyway? I feel like these people are trying to sell Jesus, which even from a Christian perspective must be creepy.

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage Great question! Ask it on the main site! :P

HedgeMage

@ElendiaStarman I'm not sure how to phrase it in a non-offensive way. The nicest analogy I have is an encyclopedia salesman; the first analogy that came to mind was a pimp.

Richard

{list question} Which denominations use the door-to-door method? Mormons, I know, are expected to do a year long mission. Those are the only ones I know of.

El'endia Starman

@HedgeMage Lol. You could just ask how the door-to-door thing got started.

Richard

Would that be a historical question? (meta discussion about that)

dancek

5:00 PM

@HedgeMage do note that the majority of Christians believe that every human being is sinful and guilty, regardless whether they're Christian or not. No wonder it looks like we think people are guilty.

@Richard JWs are perhaps the most prominent ones

wax eagle

@Richard some protestants (at least the PCA) groups use Evangelism Explosion to do door to door stuff..

dancek

@dancek afaik they report how much door-to-door (and other forms of work) they do weekly

wax eagle

@Richard I don't think so

HedgeMage

We get door-to-door JW and door-to-door baptists and door-to-door people who don't seem to claim any denomination.

DTest

@HedgeMage I'd have to disagree conversion doesn't come from outside influence. If you dig back into the personal journey, there's most likely a catalyst that spawned it.

HedgeMage

5:03 PM

In Texas we got violent door-to-door Christians... here they are mostly just rude and creepy (like the standing quietly at my front door so no one can leave thing -- that's creepy)

@DTest For someone who isn't psychologically damaged, is that catalyst ever "some guy said I have to believe this" ?

dancek

My non-denominational group has been door-to-dooring on a university campus, offering to do the dishes or help with cleaning etc. We didn't talk about Jesus unless the person asked, though.

HedgeMage

@DTest Or is it getting to know someone who belongs to a particular faith, and seeing how it has played a role in that person's life, or having a personal experience that led to a spiritual search, etc?

DTest

@HedgeMage absolutely it's getting to know them, but I'd argue that's a valid method of conversion

wax eagle

@HedgeMage far more likely

HedgeMage

The people who did the creepy door thing were apparently Baptists.

@DTest It's not a "method of conversion" it's an "environmental factor that may set the stage for conversion" -- do you understand the difference I'm implying?

DTest

5:06 PM

On a related note to the door-to-door thing, how do christians treat these salesmen? I'm somewhat ashamed to say i slam the door in their face sometimes

@HedgeMage apparently I don't

HedgeMage

Depending on my mood (note that I'm not Christian), I either...

* Pretend I'm a Satanist and watch them freak out.

* Tell them they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to prostitute Christ like that.

* Ask them politely to leave and never return.

dancek

@DTest I'm friendly to door-to-doorers, but I've never seen any others besides JWs and Mormons. To street evangelists (more common, usually Baptist or something) I first say that I already believe in Jesus. Half of them still wanna proselytize (what?!) and then I get a little rude.

Jonathon Byrd

4

A: What are the "giants" mentioned in the bible?

The Nephilim are fallen Angels, or descendants of such. First we need to understand that the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis are angels, and here's how we do that. The Hebrew words used here are Ben 'elohiym. Ben Literally means a 'descendant of'. So sons, grandsons, translated to son. 'elo...

So if Jeremy doesn't give the bounty to somebody by the time his time is up, do I get the bounty?

HedgeMage

@DTest I see "converting another person" as a recipe -- "this is the thing I do to change someone into what I want them to be" -- and in addition to being offensive, it just doesn't work. I see "providing an environmental factor" as creating a situation where a person who might convert or might not (i.e. in the balance) has something working in favor of conversion, but there's no ill effect brought on those who don't convert, and the person in question isn't being actively pursued in any way.

DTest

@HedgeMage this is why I don't see a difference in someone sharing the christian faith (in the right way) and an 'environmental factor'.. biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:14&version=NIV

though i think the word 'preach' at the end gives off the wrong vibe in today's world.

HedgeMage

5:13 PM

@DTest It does... it has the air of being one of those people who won't change his mind and won't change the subject.

I wonder what Christians would think if I came to their door, or followed their children around at a store, or somesuch trying to make them pagan.

Richard

@JonathonByrd It goes to the top voted answer.

HedgeMage

Surely they'd see the folly of converting other people (as opposed to being receptive to and supporting other people converting) then?

DTest

@hedgemage your environmental factor definition is what I personally see as the right way to convert, but it's still a choice the christian makes to focus on that person and "love on them" (grandmother's phrase)

HedgeMage

@Richard Yes, with certain conditions

DTest

@hedgemage i'm fairly sure you'd get the same response that i give christians that do it :)

dancek

5:17 PM

-1

A: Is God's name Yahweh or Jehovah?

Why the Heavenly Father's name is pronounced, "Yahweh" What about Jehovah? Some Christians, especially Jehovah's witnesses, use this name for the Heavenly Father. However, every scholar and every reference book I have ever checked on "Jehovah" (including Jehovah's witness tracts) has s...

HedgeMage

@DTest A door in the face is about the right response. When you slam it and they won't leave... seriously, I hate threatening people with violence, but at that point what do you do?

dancek

I'm amazed at the comment by the answerer!

HedgeMage

I just deleted the answer... that's asinine.

"it's too much trouble so I'm going to give you a crap answer"

then why answer at all?

DTest

heh

dancek

@HedgeMage :D

@HedgeMage I was just thinking of answering along the lines "yeah, let's use technology to our advantage... in fact, let's remove answering altogether and just automatically mine answers by googling keywords from the answer!"

HedgeMage

5:22 PM

lol @dancek

DTest

@HedgeMage I live in the south so I have a very un-christian solution (that I've never had to do). We actually don't get too many people and they always leave when I say 'no thanks!'

CiscoIPPhone

@HedgeMage have you ever tried to de-convert them?

dancek

@HedgeMage they're back christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/1630/…

HedgeMage

@CiscoIPPhone I generally don't, because I feel it's hypocritical, but I've made an exception a time or two -- and once, it worked.

@CiscoIPPhone After one became very aggressive with my then-2yo-son and made him cry, I convinced him that belief in Christ is incompatible with the practices of his church -- he freaked out, yelled a while, cried, and then said he was leaving the church.

don't know if he ever did

Jonathon Byrd

Boy.. somebody is on top of the mod tools.

HedgeMage

5:33 PM

(I don't care if people are Christian or not... but it's my duty as a mother and a human being to keep them from harassing toddlers if I can.)

@JonathonByrd thanks I try :)

Jonathon Byrd

@HedgeMage Isn't that what us christians do? Harrass the toddlers? I like to think of it as a good quality free time activity.

wax eagle

@JonathonByrd only if its yours :)

Jonathon Byrd

@waxeagle I harass my kids, they harass my chickens, it's a well rounded activity too.

HedgeMage

@JonathonByrd This particular person followed us into and through wal-mart ranting at my 2yo in a very graphic way about burning in hell and being torn limb from limb and so on. I think I was very charitable not to punch him.

Jonathon Byrd

@HedgeMage Hahahahahaha. That's unreal. Where did you run into a guy like that? Sorry if I'm coming into the convo late.

HedgeMage

5:37 PM

Even if I were Christian I don't think I could condone treating a 2yo in that way.

@JonathonByrd That was at a Wal-Mart in Copperas Cove, Texas when the military had my family stationed at Fort Hood a few years ago.

Jonathon Byrd

@HedgeMage Yea, but why did he pick your kid out of the line?

wax eagle

@HedgeMage As a Christian and parent I certainly dont

Jonathon Byrd

This is why I get along with young earth atheists the best :)

HedgeMage

@JonathonByrd I have no idea. It was like two years after we were "outed" and moved on post to be safer from this garbage. So, you'd think the locals would have forgotten about us by then.

user202448

HedgeMage, what's wrong with copying and pasting an answer or linking to an answer?

Jonathon Byrd

5:40 PM

@HedgeMage So you were a "Christian" at one point and this guy knew you?

HedgeMage

@user202448 We link to references often (and encourage it!) however the purpose of SE sites is not to content-farm and duplicate what is on other sites -- it's to share our own expertise. Certainly we should link to further reference to support our explanations, but a cut-and-paste answer is worthless.

user202448

@HedgeMage how is it worthless?

HedgeMage

@JonathonByrd I was raised Catholic, but was done with it when I was 9 or so (I continued through confirmation at age 13 mostly because I was a minor and felt an obligation to my family to do so)... but that was 1200 miles away from Copperas Cove, and the Wal-Mart guy was atotal stranger.

user202448

@HedgeMage What if my friend wrote the answer and he's not here to post the answer himself?

DTest

@user202448 pretty sure hedge explained how it was worthless.

if you didn't write the answer, why link it instead of your 'friend' sharing their expertise?

Jonathon Byrd

5:43 PM

@user202448 If the answer doesn't exist elsewhere on the internet, then copy/paste is completely valuable and accepted. But if you go copy/paste from some website like wikipedia, then it's a worthless answer.

dancek

@JonathonByrd I disagree: copying from books and such is still not what we want.

Jonathon Byrd

@dancek If he's copying from a book, then it would be available on the internet and falls into the worthless answer.

@dancek so we essentially agree :)

HedgeMage

@dancek Copying as your answer is bad, quoting specific parts briefly to support an argument or explanation makes perfect sense.

3

user202448

@JonathonByrd I copy/paste or link because I think it is worth something. There are lots of different answers on the web and filtering or finding an answer isn't always easy.

I have posted a link as an answer before and it was helpful.

HedgeMage

@user202448 If it's worth something, it's worth summarizing/explaining and linking rather than trying to cut-and-paste without any effort.

dancek

5:49 PM

@user202448 that's just not the way we do it in Christianity.SE. I know it might be allowed on StackOverflow etc.

HedgeMage

it's not supposed to be allowed on SO and I'll happily knock heads if I find it there

dancek

@HedgeMage that's an important note to make. Citing and quoting are very good, as long as they support the answer rather than make up the answer.

DTest

@user202448 christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/how-to-answer specifically the part about context to outside links

Jonathon Byrd

@user202448 We simply have a misunderstanding here. What we are referring to user is copy/pasting your entire answer from another source. If you want to reference a source in your answer BY ALL MEANS! copy away!

user202448

6:27 PM

@DTest so links are fine as long as I provide context. Provide context for links - A link to a potential solution is always welcome,

wax eagle

@user202448 yes, and a small quote from that link is welcome, but a small one and it shouldn't be your entire answer

DTest

I agree with @waxeagle there

wax eagle

@user202448 have you ever written a research paper? the guidelines here are similar, quote some, summarize more, always source your references

Caleb

@JonathonByrd Thanks but you guys don't let up the steam! My input is going to be a little sketchy for the next week or so. I'll follow along but I won't have time to research and write extensively. I'm going to have company and extra work and be traveling.

wax eagle

@Caleb no sweat, maybe I can catch you :)

El'endia Starman

6:35 PM

150 users with 200+ rep (currently 103 users with 200+ rep)

10 users with 2,000+ rep (currently 8 users with 2,000+ rep)

5 users with 3,000+ rep (currently 4 users with 3,000+ rep)

...well. We're doing far better on the second and third bullets than the first! :P

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman lol thats ok, its easy to get 200 :)

specially if they are from another SE

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle Yes, but still! We also have 32 with 1,000+ rep.

DTest

feel left out

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman thats crazy

El'endia Starman

@waxeagle Yep!

Well, gotta go to class.

Seeya later guys! :)

Caleb

6:40 PM

@HedgeMage The last part of that statement is very true the used care salesman wanna be evangelism techniques and blatant disregard for various systems is an embarrassment to the name of Christianity. However the first part of your statement is missing something. He wandered around being Jesus and got himself killed for being an outspoken heretic according to the Jews.

HedgeMage

6:51 PM

@Caleb All organized religion resorts to violence when it feels its authority is threatened -- once power and money enter a church it ceases to be a primarily religious institution, becoming primarily political -- I didn't think it polite to point that out in a room full of Christians.

Caleb

Sorry I jumped in the convo late, was going through transcripts. Looks like you've lived some of the crazy side of stuff "called" Christianity. I've said this before and am saying it again. I'm sorry.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage hopefully most of realize this...

Caleb

@HedgeMage No there is one exception. One organized religion resorts to submitting TO violence when threatened or attacked.

wax eagle

@Caleb indeed when implemented properly.

HedgeMage

@waxeagle Considering that most Christian churches still require or at least encourage tithing, I don't think they do. Money and power corrupt.

Caleb

6:53 PM

@HedgeMage Unfortunatly too often that corruption of purpose does happen to churches, no argument there.

But that doesn't make it the thing, that just means it's a corrupted thing.

wax eagle

@HedgeMage well most churches I have been to only look for enough money to pay their staff and do some ministry at home and abroad...none that require tithing...

@Caleb agreed

HedgeMage

@waxeagle Really? Where do you live? When I was in Texas, most people I knew tithed between 10 and 30 percent of their take-home pay to a church. The Catholic church my parents belong to in Illinois doesn't require tithing per se, but they have many institutional ways of conditioning salvation on payment...

wax eagle

@HedgeMage I don't pretend to speak for all Christian churches, just my experience.

its unfortunate because a real church should be relying on God to meet their needs and trusting him to compel their people. A limited awareness of the needs of the church may be necessary, but its not compulsory or even implied that its mandatory.

in fact our current church is very clear that they don't want folks who don't believe to feel compelled to give. However, they did recently make the congregation aware of a budget shortfall, but not in a "give or go home" attitude, but a "We want to make you aware of a shortfall, please consider giving" kind of way.

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