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12:25 AM
@john we should continue our discussion here
 
12:55 AM
@Hedge you called?
if(hedge != called_me)
{
me.leave(1);
}
 
hi, @RolandTaylor... I just said I was sorry I missed you. Our discussion earlier had gotten interesting before we had to go do other things.
 
yeah lol
I'll be afk to watch something on TV
but I'll be free after that :P
 
np... if I'm still around I'll be happy to chat then :)
 
@HedgeMage does the move these comments to chat link trigger on the mention of chat or a set number of posts?
 
1:13 AM
@waxeagle it's on an ongoing comment exchange between the same two people
brb, parenthood calls :)
 
@HedgeMage right, just wondering what the actual trigger is...
totally understand
 
back
@waxeagle it's a rate thing, and that it's two people not 14 different people
 
@HedgeMage Gotcha. Had it pop up a bit earlier, which actually was what I wanted anyways. Currently have a lively and in my mind cordial discussion about predestination :)
 
:)
brb
returns
 
is here but listening to tv
^--- that picture is eerily relevant to an earlier conversation :)
@HedgeMage I'm free now, program finished :)
 
1:28 AM
@RolandTaylor Welcome back.
 
Thanks
What was it you wanted to talk to me about again (I forgot :P)?
 
@RolandTaylor You had asked whether my Catholic upbringing and/or the violence I experienced living in Texas had given me an aversion to Jesus, and I had begun to explain that I don't have an aversion to Jesus, that because my tradition makes no proscription as to worship my incompatibilities with Christianity were largely social/intellectual... then life interrupted.
 
Ahh
So, do you believe in God/Jesus/gods/deities/me* (bow down and worship my awesomeness)/nothing at all?

*just kidding about the me part obviously.
 
My tradition's rules dictate nothing about god/gods at all -- I could worship Jesus if I wanted without breaking any rules... my personal belief is that every religion swears they are the One Right Way, and that despite being mortals they are the only people who know the nature and intentions of God/gods: I don't buy it. There is nothing to show me who's right, and I'm not keen on playing Russian Roulette with my soul.
So, I'll happily spend my time doing and being good (in the best fashion that can be logically determined), and one of three things will happen:
1) There is no God/afterlife, so at least I spent my time well.
2) There is a kind/just God who will care more for what I've done than for the self-absorbed sycophants who are just going through the motions (the majority in any church/temple/etc).
 
or... 3) God is just and kind, and loving, but can't force you to be saved His way if you don't want to, and even if it breaks his own heart, must let you face the consequences of that.
free will can suck at times :/
 
1:39 AM
3) God is really only concerned with having people pad his ego through worship, and my life is at least a decent punch in the nose to someone who has atrocious priorities. I'll burn, maybe, but picking from even major religions gives me less than a 10% shot at not burning anyway.
 
@HedgeMage this sounds like a reverse Pascal's wager, although I don't believe his logic holds up any longer...to many options.
 
lol 4) God is less concerned with padding his ego and more concerned with giving His children (mankind) a chance to have everything they want/need - but can't if they don't want Him to.
 
@RolandTaylor If God were that worried about me following his path he'd give me some indication as to which he wanted me to choose. There are hundreds (even if you only count big-ish ones) of One Right Ways out there, all of them equally arbitrary from the perspective of someone who is willing to admit she does not know the heart and mind of God.
@waxeagle exactly -- Pascal's wager only works for a binary choice: believe/worship or do not. It doesn't work with 100 choices.
 
There has always been one way to God. In fact it pays to do some deep research on various world cultures and beliefs, they all point back to one unified origin. The problem is, as usual, sinful man wants his own way, so he creates "religions"; a way to get to God without God, so to speak.
 
@RolandTaylor I never said I don't want God -- I said I won't assume that what some institution tells me is the will of God is. If God has something he wants me to know, he's quite capable of pointing it out. Else I'll use the brain i was born with and find my own way.
@RolandTaylor Isn't it more than a little arrogant to claim to know the nature and will of God in the first place? (I'm not sure of a less argumentative way to say this, but it is an earnest question.)
 
1:43 AM
@HedgeMage I think it's simple really: God has given us His word in a book, though much debated. I can't say I know it all, or get it all right, but at least I can say I'm trying.
 
@RolandTaylor Everyone has a holy book -- why choose to believe that one over the others.
 
@HedgeMage it only sounds arrogant, until you actually know God for yourself.
 
@HedgeMage yes it certainly is. What we can say is that we believe the Bible is divinely inspired and as such we can believe that it presents the truth. The interpretation of that truth is at best flawed. Thankfully my tradition suggest that only a work of the spirit can convince someone. We are here to be instruments, but we don't cause it.
 
@HedgeMage the moment you stop looking for why why why why why why why, and approach everything with, hmm let's take a look at this, it will become clear.
@waxeagle yes, that is true too. I'm really not trying to convert Hedge here, just trying to play my part out of genuine (don't shoot!) love for humanity (including Hedge :P).
brb
 
I'm fine with religious debate... if I feel like you've crossed the line I'll say so. Don't advocate murder, political or economic oppression, rape, and so on and I'm sure we'll be fine.
 
1:49 AM
Back
Oh btw, there is a verse that says, any man who comes to God must believe that He is.
If you don't, you really won't be able to experience/hear from/communicate with Him.
 
My tradition has a concept called "natural law". This is not in the neopagan sense that Nature is a Goddess who makes laws about stuff. In our tradition, the idea is basically that the world is what it is, and you can try to pretend otherwise, but if you go about life that way, what is is going to smack you down in a very unpleasant way, not because someone wants it to, but because it's how the world works.
For example, I could choose to believe in the Christian God, or in the Wiccan Goddess and Lord, or in the Roman pantheon, or any number of other things. I might be right or wrong, but my belief does not change what is.
 
Interesting. So then it would be fair to say, that if God is who the Bible says He is, that failure to respond the correct way will eventually result in a smack down?
 
Yes, but not in the "God is sorry but you fail he's sending you to Hell" way... more like, if you fail to understand the world around you, or worse -- believe what you want to believe regardless of whether it is true -- you'll get into trouble because you will be playing by the wrong set of rules.
 
God doesn't "send" you to hell...
that's a sad statement a lot of Christians make, but it's really not true
it's your choice to either accept salvation or reject it
 
@RolandTaylor It's an oft-repeated meme, whether true or not. I was merely trying to point out that it isn't what I was getting at.
 
1:55 AM
if you reject it, then you go to hell because, well, you don't want to be saved
 
@RolandTaylor what Bible are you reading?
 
@waxeagle would you like for us to do some digging?
remember "hell was not made for man"?
 
I have to wonder how a just God would blame people for not knowing which of the 100s of options out there is His One Right Way.
 
I could get something more direct, but I don't think I should need to unless we are planning to do this university style (which I am not)
@HedgeMage he doesn't.
in fact, God commands His people to go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news) of His Kingdom
 
@RolandTaylor A basic tenet of most (but not all) faiths is that he does.
 
1:57 AM
and to make disciples of all men
@HedgeMage that's a basic made up junk of most humans...
 
"Comply or burn." "We are the Borg^H^H^H Church and we will assimilate you." <-- said 100% in fun, DO NOT take seriously.
@RolandTaylor So if you aren't in the "worship according to the One Right Way or be damned" camp -- what, in your view, makes one "saved"?
 
@HedgeMage LOL@Borg church :D
@HedgeMage salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus.
it's that simple
of course, we could collegiate that...
"Salvation is by redemptive propitiation of our sin by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, of Nazareth, born of a virgin through the Holy Spirit... crowd falls asleep... yada, yada, yada, bla, bla, bla..."
not that such a long explanation does not have it's place mind you ;)...
 
@RolandTaylor If it is through faith in Jesus, then what of the people who have faith in him as they choose to see him, not as he is, and do evil in his name?
I can make you a list, there are a lot of nuts out there now and throughout history doing clearly evil things under Christ's banner.
 
@HedgeMage those are the folks who bastardize the faith, similar to the extremist mulims
 
@waxeagle I agree. My question was simply, under @RolandTaylor's theology, what happens to them?
 
2:05 AM
@HedgeMage I would presume they burn in hell
 
@HedgeMage you do know that there are scriptures regarding how God will deal with people who do such things right?
 
@HedgeMage I hesitate to call them true believers. If the aren't they burn like everyone else. If they are then I'm not sure what to say on that subject. For instance, some traditions believe Judas will be in heaven (I've heard a sermon on it actually).
 
You can judge a tree by it's fruit and all
 
God is more angry with them than you are...
 
@RolandTaylor There are, but they can be twisted a few different ways depending on one's creativity.
 
2:06 AM
God's grace is not to be underestimated, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be messed around with either. If you're gonna do junk just cause you're saved, then you're not really saved.
@HedgeMage we're both science fanatics correct?
So with that in mind, no amount of creativity will change reality...
In other words, no matter how you twist, turn, or place_upside_down the Bible... it will remain what it is.
 
@RolandTaylor Right. My point is simply, that it's hard to use something so open to interpretation as the Bible as a definitive "God says so", especially when it comes to things that a thorough application of logic can show to be morally questionable if not completely immoral.
 
I have one issue though...
 
@RolandTaylor Not to mention that while my Latin is pretty good, my Greek sucks, and I never learned any other languages I'd need to trace back to the original writings (assuming what $random-person says is the original text is -- I wasn't around 2k years ago).
@RolandTaylor what's that?
 
Why are you so focused on what people have done in the name of God, that was obviously not godly? Why not focus on what they say is the word of God? If they are supposed to be following it, then you should investigate the word of God itself. Maybe if their behaviour is flawed, then the standard they have is flawed... or... they are flawed for not sticking to that standard.
 
@RolandTaylor Actions are much much much stronger than words
 
2:15 AM
@waxeagle I know what you mean. However, I also realize that actions are often the result of blatantly ignoring words.
 
@RolandTaylor That is a very fair (even astute) point... but how does one know the Bible is any more God's word than the Vedas, or the Torah, or the Qoran? They all claim to be God's word -- by what do you suggest we judge them if not hard evidence (there is none) or the behaviors of those who follow them?
 
For example if you tell your child not to go outside because there is a bear lurking, and they get eaten by the bear, then obviously somewhere along the lines they ignored your words.
@HedgeMage the Torah... interesting you should bring that up.
 
(Actually, the Qoran is said to be the teachings of Mohammad, who was inspired by god, and the Vedas a little different too, but they are all meant to be the religious truth)
@RolandTaylor Yes, I'm aware of its relationship to the Bible.
 
The Quran is full of contradictions and utter non-sense (note, not nonsense, non-sense).
 
So is the Bible
 
2:17 AM
@HedgeMage Right and more recently you have the Book of Mormon and the NWT of the Bible. Whats to say that one book is any more Holy than another.
 
@HedgeMage yeah?
 
@waxeagle precisely
 
@waxeagle you really make me wonder... but anyway ;)...
 
@RolandTaylor I'm yet to meet a holy book that is completely internally consistent.
If I did I would be impressed.
 
Have you "met" the Bible?
 
2:20 AM
@RolandTaylor Lol. I assure you I am a committed Christian. I also think the faith in Jesus Christ is the only means to Salvation. However, I'm not above admitting that I take things on faith sometimes that I cannot explain.
 
@waxeagle fair enough :D
It's just sometimes you come across as being from "the dark side"
:D
 
@RolandTaylor I've read both the King James and an older Latin version cover to cover. I've not done extensive research, though.
 
@RolandTaylor I value reason highly and I love theology. So if I'm disagreeing with you its more likely on your theology than on your faith :)
 
By the way -- just going from an old Latin version to the King James produced a ridiculous amount of mistranslation, or slightly altered meanings, and so on. I hate to imagine how much modern versions diverge from what was originally written.
 
@HedgeMage yes. Please throw that out. The newer translations (NIV, or even better ESV) are much more accurate
 
2:24 AM
yeah
 
I'm not familiar with ESV, I've seen the NIV but not read it through.
 
the KJV can be rather misleading, sadly
 
@HedgeMage NIV did a pretty good job. From what I have read from the ESV (not cover to cover yet) it does an even better job and correct some issues the NIV had. Its also the most readable Bible I've seen yet
 
@HedgeMage not to offend, but you really need to approach God and His word with an open heart, not as if "I don't believe this anyway". That's prideful and it will not get you to God, cause He literally resists the proud.
 
@waxeagle Interesting. I may check it out some time when I have way more free time.
 
2:26 AM
I personally like the WEB
:P
but my father bought me an NIV, so I use that when I'm not on the computer
 
heh
 
(WEB = World English Bible btw - not internet :D)
(I only noticed after typing that)
 
@RolandTaylor I certainly have an open mind... open heart is a concept I never understood: I don't think with my heart, I think with my brain.
 
yes but your spirit is what responds to God first
not your brain
you can't reason with God unless you are able to connect spiritually with Him, because... well, He is spirit
(so are you)
 
brb phone
returns
 
2:41 AM
goes poof
(not really)
 
@RolandTaylor While I understand what you are saying, and I have certainly had experiences that in your lexicon would probably be tagged experiences of the Divine, i still can't claim to know the nature and will of God, which I think one rather has to claim in order to belong to any of the One Right Way paths -- doesn't one?
 
@HedgeMage nooooooooooooooooo lol
:D
Even I, with all of my apparent knowledge.. am still a far way off from knowing His will and mind in full
but... I know enough to share the gospel ;)
and to keep fighting the "war" over souls like yours
 
shrugs
 
sorry was I annoying there?
I did come off a bit cliche...
 
Here's a question -- assuming that you are 100% right and salvation is available through faith in your particular version of God/Jesus/trinity alone...
 
2:47 AM
k
 
What does it say about God that He cares more for the beliefs of people than for the choices they make?
This is, actually, one of the points upon which I left the Catholic church.
 
I think you're kind of confusing "beliefs" and choices.
Salvation is a choice
it's also a gift
and...
 
then let me explain what I mean... I may not have described it well...
 
in order to receive, you must believe
 
@HedgeMage I see all of this from a different point of view. I see humanity as completely depraved. The fact that he chooses to save any of us is a mercy.
 
2:50 AM
@waxeagle lol I think we're on the same page, just putting it different ways, in that regard.
 
@waxeagle Yeah, I never got the "depraved at birth" thing -- an infant can't be sinful, it's an infant.
 
However, I would caution on one thing, remember God made man to be in a much better position than we're in now.
So in His eyes, we're worth giving His own life.
 
@RolandTaylor But not clear instructions?
(yes that's a serious question)
 
@HedgeMage lol your kid didn't do anything purposefully sinful when he was an infant? I know mine did. He did things he knew were wrong, even at a fairly young age.
 
@HedgeMage yeah you can. Sins like a virus that is passed from parent to child. Hence all of us inherit it.
 
2:52 AM
@HedgeMage Follow me is pretty clear
 
@HedgeMage the instructions are clear. Whether you follow them or not is up to you.
Also, whether you call them "madmade and flawed" or not, is up to you.
 
@RolandTaylor actually a virus is a great comp. a mom can pass HIV to her child if she has it. So she passes sin
 
@waxeagle If you think so, then what about if that preacher succeeded in killing him just before birth -- according to every Christian doctrine but a few, he'd have been damned, never having made a choice or taken an action of his own yet.
@waxeagle If sin can be passed in that way, then what is it? I was under the impression that sin was the act of breaking one's relationship with god through some bad action.
sorry, that was meant for @RolandTaylor
 
@HedgeMage actually its more like a state
 
@RolandTaylor The instructions are only clear if you pick one at random and follow it.
@RolandTaylor There are literally thousands of versions out there -- all incompatible
 
2:55 AM
It's not so random really. It's us who chose to make it seem that way by rejecting the original instructions.
And as for the children thing, there is such a thing as the age of accountability, or another words, the point in your life where you have the ability to reasonably choose
 
@HedgeMage The Westminster Confession basically says: we don't know but we have faith that God saves the children he has chosen to save.
 
A child that dies before having a chance to understand salvation is saved
 
@RolandTaylor So, we're back to, I can pick one, which feels a whole lot like Russian Roulette with my soul, or I can accept that I don't know if God exists, or what God's will is, and get on with life -- do what I can understand right, and accept my lack of control over what i don't understand.
 
I care about this particular fact as much as anyone. My wife and I had a daughter die shortly after childbirth about a year ago.
 
sorry to hear that :S
 
2:57 AM
@RolandTaylor its ok. Thankfully we knew what was going on about 5 months into the pregnancy
 
@HedgeMage or you can simply accept that there is one right way, it's in the Bible, find out for yourself.
 
@RolandTaylor But most Christian sects don't recognize an age of accountability. Among the Catholics and Lutherans, for example, you get baptized or damned, there are no exceptions. During difficult births they often put off life-saving procedures to get a priest present for baptism before the birth is complete.
 
@waxeagle oh
 
@RolandTaylor I've read a couple versions of the Bible -- it's not notably different from other Holy books.
 
@HedgeMage you do realize that they are steep in traditions of men correct?
 
2:58 AM
Other than being longer.
 
al;skgslgkbslb
sorry
 
@HedgeMage well its kinda 2 :)
 
or 66...
 
2:58 AM
@RolandTaylor I agree -- but the bible is just as much of men. it didn't fall from the sky -- humans wrote it, translated it (mistranslating some of it), interpreted it, and so on.
 
God inspired it, though he used men to write it.
If you read the Bible itself, you will see what happens when God does the writing...
it's not exactly taking a pen and paper...
mountains quake, skies darken, etc
 
And who can know how much changed between God's lips (sorry, Metatron's lips, if god talks to you, you explode) and the modern page?
 
I'd prefer for the still small voice to tell someone human what to write.
@HedgeMage Metatron?
@HedgeMage do you know that the Bible has been extensively mulled over and no one has been able to find significant changes?
for 2000 years...
don't take my word for it btw,
ask the scholars
 
@RolandTaylor It's part of Catholic dogma: if you hear God's voice directly, your mortal body and brain can't handle it and you disintigrate. That's the explanation of why he always sends angels to talk to people instead of doing it directly. The one known as most often acting as God's mouthpiece is named Metatron.
 
sorry to say this
but enough with Catholic dogma
 
3:02 AM
God talks to Metatron, Metatron talks to mortals, no disintigration necessary.
 
(not trying to offend you there)
 
chuckles
But that part's funny
 
God is so omnipotent he can't keep you from randomly exploding.
 
Metatron is supposed to be Enoch
 
3:03 AM
@HedgeMage THIS! its kinda ridiculous
 
and having read the book of Enoch, as well as having heard from God myself (sorry, I know that is "up to debate")... I'm pretty sure Metatron doesn't talk to us
Honestly... the Catholic dogma gets on my nerves...
 
if God talking to us makes us randomly explode then the entire idea of the Spirit is incredibly flawed. but thats neither here nor there.
Anyways its getting late and I've missed alarms every morning this week...
 
If you explode when God talks to you, then you both have one good imagination :)
@waxeagle lol alrighty :D
cya
 
@RolandTaylor I'm pretty sure he doesn't, either, but my point is simply that the Bible is a bit like the game Chinese Telephone. Even if you believe it was inspired by God, it's been through a lot of mortal hands since then, all with their own failings, their own agendas, and so on.
goodnight, @waxeagle
 
doesn't exist - he exploded the last several times God spoke to him....
 
3:05 AM
rofl
 
@HedgeMage I encourage you to look up the scholarly studies that have been done to prove/disprove the authenticity of the Bible in its current form.
You might be surprised.
 
The truth is I just don't have any way to verify that this book is any more God's Word than all the others that claim to be.
I'm not saying you are wrong.
I'm saying there is insufficient proof to know that you are right.
 
There is overwhelming proof, if you look for it you will find it.
Above all though, the real proof for me, of any "religious book" is if doing what it suggests works.
If it doesn't, then it's not worth it.
If it stands up to what it says, then there must at least be something to it.
 
@RolandTaylor Now there's a common ground between us:
I believe in what works.
 
I was once into evolution strongly in my younger years.
 
3:12 AM
Regardless of the religion espoused (Christianity, Islam, Satanism, various pagan trads, and so on), organized religion doesn't work. Some idiot gets power-hungry and all of a sudden it's not about spirit/god/etc and all about money, politics, and control.
"into" ? It's a theory, not a rock band. :P
 
Then I realized it wasn't really adding up. Not because I was raised in church (my former church actually believed in gap theory and a few other things that left the door open for evolution). I gave up evolution when I evaluated it for myself, and when it wouldn't stand up to the test of working in real life situations.
@HedgeMage lol
at least you called it a theory :D
most people these days call it a "fact"
 
That's cultural backlash from the idiots who tried to backdoor forced indoctrination through the whole "intelligent design" thing.
It was bound to happen, and the Christians did it to themselves.
 
"my fruit fly has 8 legs cause I tweaked the dna like a mad scientist - evolution works!"
 
I mean, how would Christians like it if we started teaching Satanism in public schools?
I think there would be backlash. I don't know why the ID people didn't think they would get any.
 
@HedgeMage actually, when you study the whole thing, Christians were not the ones who really pushed ID as much as you might think. I was surprised to find that out myself.
Many Christians including me are against the watered down open ended ideas of ID.
 
3:16 AM
@RolandTaylor I know that they were in the school system where I had to deal with that nutjobbery -- whether it was true in other places or not i don't know.
 
sadly the ones who push ID over biblical creation are often the same ones who choose to see the bible through the lens of "open interpretation"
which basically means "if we like it we believe it"
"if we don't it's not true"
 
I find it interesting that Christians are so big on forced conversion, when every account of Christ's life suggests he was against it, and in favor of a separation between government and spiritual matters.
 
He didn't so much stress on the separation part, but he really was against forced conversion.
 
There's a Ghandi quote I love: "I like your Christ. I dislike your Christians, for they are so unlike your Christ."
 
That only came into play when the Roman government out of desperation "adopted" "Christianity"
@HedgeMage lol I like that one :)
 
3:19 AM
@RolandTaylor Right, he had no cause to worry about it before that.
 
you know, it's sad, but the romans are the ones who "forced christianity" on everyone else
 
Yep.
 
when in reality, they weren't disciples of Jesus to begin with
 
It was part of a last attempt at world domination... kind of sad, really.
 
now everyone hates us (which Jesus did predict would happen) for something we didn't do
@HedgeMage my attempt at world domination will succeed though :>
Mars ftw.
 
3:21 AM
I don't hate Christians in general. I don't have the energy to hate that many people :P
 
(jk - to lighten the atmosphere)
 
I know :)
But, just for the record, my ancestors' forced conversion wasn't at the hands of the Romans -- it happened in the US
 
Ahhh
I know of that story as well
 
They made the mistake of moving to the chicago area, where if you weren't Catholic, your children starved.
 
makes me angry to think about it
:(
 
3:22 AM
Another great example of "so unlike your Christ"
 
yes
well...
I'll have you to know
I'm black
as in - my ancestors were slaves
I've overcome the hatred (and trust me, in school they tried to teach it) through following Jesus
 
That's great that it worked for you. :)
 
but I can't say it was all easy - because when you hit secondary school and start doing history and you read what happened to your ancestors...
and you've got white children in the class with you as the minority...
it's hard to show love
 
At least schools are allowed to talk about what happened to your ancestors... not so for mine.
shrugs
 
America sweeps it under the carpet right?
 
3:25 AM
history has been unjust to every group at some point or another -- obsessing wouldn't get us anywhere.
Yep.
 
oh btw - my race had it coming :)
remember Nimrod?
he was the world's first dictator... and was black :/
subdued many people groups
and became known as a "god"
so I guess... what goes around really does come around
 
Meh, I don't believe in inherited corruption -- simply because if it is accepted as truth there's no reason to do good -- you were already saved or damned long before you were born.
(By the way -- if I disappear don't take offense or assume I was offended, we have a storm building here and it may take out our power and/or internet.)
 
ahh
np
I might be gone soon anyway :P
 
np
I should sleep soon, too, but I found this interesting.
 
I am glad we had a discussion without starting world war 4.
(We had 3 earlier if I remember correctly).
 
3:30 AM
I've debated with many Catholics, but most of the protestants I've met are of the "comply or die" variety.
 
lol something like that.
 
I'm not of any denomination btw
our church is independent so to speak
 
meh, if you believe simultaneously in Jesus Christ, and in Catholics being wrong about a whole bunch of stuff that matters, you're protestant :P
that's what it meant -- protesting the behavior of the Catholic Church
 
lol
well I simply reject their behaviour - not protest it :D
protestants really are only those who were once catholic
and many of our people never were
 
3:34 AM
nods
I was raised Catholic, but I was pretty much done in any meaningful sense when I was about 8 -- I called the priest an anti-intellectualist hypocrite and walked out. He told my grandmother on me, which is pretty much what happens when you are 8.
 
XD
that's a funny story :D
I sure hope you apologized :O
 
I told him that I didn't have to apologize to heretics.
(This all stemmed from him telling me that Jesus didn't want to hear from children, which I could show to be untrue from the Bible.)
 
he really said that?
 
Yep.
 
haha?
 
3:38 AM
I thought so.
 
O.o
wow...
 
shrugs.
 
satan really wants to try hard to keep you from ever having a chance to know God obviously...
 
I used scripture against the clergy pretty effectively. They were totally thrown by meeting someone who bothered to read and understand it.
 
lol
you know, you're a special person :) (no, that is not scripted)
 
3:40 AM
hehe... thanks! (I think)
 
your life is proof - only people with a purpose go through that lvl of crap
 
Crap I have plenty of.
 
@HedgeMage lol here's a secret :D
 
But, that's life -- what is is.
 
so long as I'm not on AU chat, everything I say can be believed.
if I'm on AU chat - I'm lying :D
 
3:41 AM
rofl
 
Honestly though, you really must have been born with a huge purpose, if not you would't have faced so much especially from the people who should have been the ones to help.
That's the way satan works things out to make God look like a villain especially through his own people.
 
Meh, I don't think God is a villain. Some of the people carrying his banner, however...
I just think God is ERROR...NOT ENOUGH DATA AVAILABLE
;)
 
lol
<--- is a saint... both literally and figuratively
 
:)
 
<--- can do no evil
does evil >:)
 
3:44 AM
pats you on the head
 
:)
I guess what I'm trying to say there (apart from joking around) is give God a chance in spite of us ;)
as Jesus said "Do as they say, not as they do"
 
I'll always listen... not sure what it'll change, but I'm big on listening and questioning.
 
I feel ya :)
it's good to be rational and reasonable
 
yep :)
If nothing else, it makes life one heck of a lot less dull!
i'm going to call it a night
I have an early morning coming, whether this weather agrees or not.
Goodnight!
 
4:42 AM
...well...dang. I missed out on quite an interesting conversation!
 
5:12 AM
@HedgeMage One way you can evaluate them is via historical accuracy. For example, Luke mentioned a ton of names in the Gospel of Luke, and all of them have been confirmed by archaeology. In contrast, the Book of Mormon has like 0% accuracy. The Torah is just the first 5 books of the Bible and I don't know about the Qoran or the Vedas.
@waxeagle Have you checked out the NLT? I'd say that's the most readable translation yet although it is less precise than the ESV.
 
5:29 AM
@HedgeMage I myself believe that while Sin is inherited through the father (Jesus was born of a women and yet was sinless), an infant can't sin, so to speak. In other words, until a baby/child reaches that "age of accountability" they can't be found guilty for something they didn't know was wrong (Romans 5:13 is my main verse for this).
@HedgeMage: I once read a quote that went along the lines of "Man could not have written the Bible even if he would and he would not have written the Bible even if he could."
The first part comes from the fact that even with all the apparent inconsistencies, the Bible is still *very* internally consistent.
The second part comes from stuff like David and Bathsheba. David's (first) actions there aren't something you'd want to record for posterity if you want to cast David in a positive light...
@RolandTaylor "Theory" means something in colloquial English that is rather different from science. Like, there's the Theory of Special Relativity, which is practically undisputed even though it cannot be proved correct.
 
 
5 hours later…
11:02 AM
Good morning all
@ElendiaStarman interesting interpretation ...
 
11:13 AM
@CRoss Gün aydın. Although I'm not sure who "all" is, things have been pretty quiet around here after last nights flurry.
 
@Caleb all is whoever happens to be in the room
 
11:40 AM
Hello all
 
@ElendiaStarman I feel like that is a very slippery slope. What happens if we clone a human and it is born of a virgin? Personally I believe that Christ was sinless because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and for no other reason :)
 
11:54 AM
Also good morning folks :)
 
@waxeagle Back at you.
@ElendiaStarman How would you define "total depravity" and what do you believe about it?
 

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