The Upper Room

Anonymous

2:26 AM

Is it true that in the Catholic faith suicide is considered a grave sin?

wax eagle

@Anonymous yup

mortal IIRC, but I'm not an expert on Catholocism by any stretch

Anonymous

@waxeagle Then, I'm so glad that I'm not Catholic. I feel liberated.

@waxeagle Would you rather be a law-abiding citizen or a Christian?

(Yes, I realize that there is the "Both" option.)

wax eagle

@Anonymous Christianity pretty explicitly teaches to obey civil laws unless they directly violate God's laws. So the answer is that up until you are asked to disobey God's law, being a law abiding citizen is part and parcel of being a Christian.

so ultimately, I choose Christianity over the law, but in general they don't conflict.

Christianity is in a sense more strict than civil law, though it also more gracious when you screw up.

Anonymous

2:42 AM

@waxeagle Could it be that there is one scene in which the Pharisees ask Jesus to whom they should pay the coin and attribute loyalty - the emperor of Rome or God?

wax eagle

@Anonymous yep, and what did he say?

very famous quote, I'd be surprised if you didn't know it.

Anonymous

@waxeagle I don't know. I can't find the verse.

It happens when Jesus is caught.

I'm sure the gospel of Luke has it.

wax eagle

@Anonymous it's a bit earlier than that IIRC, he asks them who is on the coin, when they respond "Caeser" he says "Render unto Caeser what is Caeser's"

in other words, "pay your taxes, abide by the civil law"

Anonymous

@waxeagle Caesar.

@waxeagle Are you talking about canon law?

wax eagle

@Anonymous by "civil law" in this sense I'm talking about the laws of your local government

Anonymous

2:49 AM

@waxeagle But Christianity is more of a monarchy, while your local government may be a democracy.

God is the king of the kingdom.

Though, it would be kind of cool if God were elected by the people.

Then, the people would have the power to choose which god should rule over them; whether they should choose Thor or Nuwa or the biblical "God" is up to them.

But that would mean that the people are in control, not God.

Islam

3:33 AM

Just to inform you , I was suspended for one year after asking this question:

christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/18710/…

I know its an escalation , but the question is a really good one which should not have been deleted

I was just clear with my intentions that I am Muslim. Why should I not post question which perplex me?

Many of my great questions and answers have been deleted too

At ISLAM.SE tough questions may recieve downvotes but downvotes don't result in deletion and closure

here are concerted attempt is made to close and delete tough questions I am sure many good answers can come for the tough questions, but let people allow it to answer or modify the question as you deem fit according to the site guidelines

dont delete it!

0

Q: What constitutes "promotional content"?

I see that yet another (apparent) unbeliever has received moderation after asking some really tough questions. They weren't necessarily well-worded wrt/ SE format, but they did represent the honest questions of a seeker. Was there "promotional" content that I missed? Or was it in terms of pro...

None of my Q\A promoted Islam , most of what I wrote is supported by other minority christian sects.

While I openly discuss Islam v Chrsitianity in chatroom, has this contributed to my suspension?

Anyways I respect the decision of the Mod and God willingly meet you after a year Thanks.

Does Elisha speak?

4:32 AM

0

Q: Why are some people reviewing new posts and not directing them to the meta and help pages?

Most recently, I noticed this question from a new user. I saw only a single comment that was a quasi answer, which is fine, but I also saw no other comments and that this user had two upvotes and only 11 rep. Well, it was no surprise that this was their first post when I had checked their profile...

discussion new-users review-tasks first-posts

AJ Henderson

4:47 AM

@Anonymous you are thinking of Pilot questioning Jesus about the accusation that he claims to be king of the Jews, it's a different but similar situation

@Islam not sure what the reasoning might have been since I don't have access to deleted questions, but from the wording of the title, the question seems rather accusatory in nature rather than asking a question seeking an answer. Asking if it is reasonable to follow some particular theology is more or less a direct attack on that theology rather than seeking an explanation of something, though perhaps it was simply a language and/or culture miscommunication.

but again, I didn't see the question when it was active on the site, so that's just a guess based on the perma-link for the question

fredsbend

8:51 AM

@Islam Not likely. You can post on MSO asking for more information. Or you can reply to the email you must have gotten. Or contact the staff directly.

@AJHenderson You can see the google cache of the page until at least google checks the page again.

2

@Islam See this meta post, meditate upon its wisdom for a year, then return and ask your questions.

2

@AJHenderson In chrome, you can prefix any url with cache: and google will show you the cached page.

Islam

9:12 AM

@fredsbend the page is not an updated one I added some links to it too

@fredsbend I don't know how the question is a "refute this type" it is not, the crux of the question is the last statement:Why do the protestant not reject the Church entirely from beginning as the catholic church was the one who started all the corruption, Is rejecting only its modern equivalent enough for the protestants ?

Jack Douglas

12:05 PM

@Islam I'm not sure I even understand the question you asked. I seems to presuppose that rejecting the teachings of Paul is a natural extension of the reformation, which it is not. The explicit aim of the reformation was to return to the teachings of scripture (including Paul's writings).

@Islam, out of curiosity, do you have a short answer to the question "why do you believe the Quran?"?

Islam

1:04 PM

@JackDouglas I believe in the Quran Because I read it and it convinced me that It is the truth, I also read the gospels and stopped after the Paul's letters appeared abruptly. The most fascinating thing which convinced me of the Quran is how well it completes the missing parts in the gospels and presents a bigger picture of million (s) of years of human history and events. The other best part is that the Quran is the only book which unites Jews and Christians into Muslims , giving good news:

both to christians , that Jesus(God??) did not commit suicide and to Jews ,that they were not guilty of the murder of a Messiah

Jack Douglas

@Islam In other words it comes down to your personal judgement of the authenticity/integrity of the work, is that right?

AJ Henderson

@fredsbend ah, thanks, yeah, I can see why that was closed, but I'd agree there is a reasonable question in there about what support is there for Paul's conversion and ministry being in line with the teachings of the apostles, but the way it was currently worded was combatitive

Islam

@JackDouglas Have you read the Quran from cover to cover with sincerity?

AJ Henderson

@Islam - I would suggest that your question was indeed interesting, though I think it is fully answerable because the ministry of Paul didn't really introduce anything particularly new in comparison to the ministries of the apostles who actually were with Jesus during his ministry

Islam

@AJHenderson let me quote:

I have come to believe that what has happened in Christendom, historically, is as follows:

1. Jesus and his gospel are exceedingly radical from any human point of view. The apostles and earliest disciples of Jesus therefore remained uncertain about the nature of the gospel and just what Jesus had accomplished in the world. Nevertheless they were intensely committed to him personally and therefore were exceedingly careful to see that his teachings were perpetuated as accurately as possible. In this they were carefully shepherded by the Holy Spirit. We have as a result a true repository of h…

AJ Henderson

1:10 PM

but I would try asking it along the lines of "how do we know that Paul's conversion was genuine and that his ministry should be considered Canon?" I think that's a non-agressive way of asking it

Islam

Please read this book It is written by fundamentalist christians

I have taken the quote from here

wax eagle

@Islam It's written by heretics, frankly.

3

AJ Henderson

Islam, actual real question, but how do you reconcile the radical differences between the Koran and the Torah, it's always been of interest to me and I haven't known many Muslims that read both in full

TRiG

> The most fascinating thing which convinced me of the Quran is how well it completes the missing parts in the gospels

Islam

@waxeagle May I know the common name for their sect?

AJ Henderson

1:12 PM

I'm sorry to say I've only made it about 1/4 of the way through the Koran, I intend to read it fully through, but life is busy

wax eagle

@Islam If it's who I'm thinking of they go by the term "new perspective on Paul"

AJ Henderson

but I've personally been shocked by how completely different it is from either the Torah or the Bible. I don't really understand how Islam considers it to be the same foundation

since there are clear, irreconcilable differences between the Koran and both the New and Old Testaments

Islam

@AJHenderson Jews will tell you the same , between OT and NT

AJ Henderson

yes, but they don't make a claim that Jesus was a good anything

Jack Douglas

@Islam No, but I might read it at some point. What I want to communicate to you (without trying to persuade you) is that it is perfectly possible with sincerity to read Paul and the rest of the Christian Bible without any thought that Paul is saying anything out of keeping with Jesus or indeed anyone else. That was my strong impression when I first read his writing and it remains today.

4

AJ Henderson

1:15 PM

they don't attempt to incorporate Christianity at all

Islam

@AJHenderson Quran says that Jesus is a Messiah

wax eagle

@JackDouglas I'd go so far as to say that to reject the teachings of Paul as heresy you'd have to reject the teachings of Christ and the rest of the NT as heresy

AJ Henderson

I have to agree with Jack on that, Paul's teaching is a fundamentally consistent, but educated Jewish targeted version of the gospel which looks at how the Old Testament speaks to what is presented in the other gospels

Islam

@AJHenderson Please read the book on Paul :The Stranger linked above , it has clearly convined me

AJ Henderson

@Islam I know, that's exactly my point. Islam claims that parts are true, but then goes 180 degrees in the opposite direction from just about anything in either the Old or New Testaments

Jack Douglas

1:18 PM

@Islam I'll read a bit of it if you are willing to discuss some of the points raised?

AJ Henderson

it's kind of like saying that monarchies are great, so lets set up a monarchy that everyone elects the ruler and we decide everything by committee

just because you say it's basically the same thing as a monarchy doesn't make it not something else entirely with no fundamental similarities at all

wax eagle

@JackDouglas I'd ask that it not be done in here, but a seperate room if that's OK?

Islam

Actually I starteed reading the gospel , I liked it and then came abruptly the letters of Paul, and the first few sections itself were able to convince me that something is really fishy!

wax eagle

(feel free to link the discussion in here, I'd argue it might be a solid venue for a gallery room)

Jack Douglas

@waxeagle absolutely

Islam

1:19 PM

Have'nt you noticed this?

James T

@Islam Did you skip over the Acts of the Apostles then?

Jack Douglas

@Islam You haven't specified any particulars…

AJ Henderson

@JackDouglas hey, if you do branch off in to that room, be sure to @me on it. I'd be interested in the discussion too

Islam

@JamesT I dont remember now its 5 years back

Jack Douglas

@AJHenderson sure :)

Islam

1:21 PM

It just remember the experience

then I read a lot about paul

and I came across this book:voiceofjesus.org/b2tableofcontents.html

and I also found many sects actually rejected Paul

as the chief innovator

I plan to read the pauline scriptures soon

Jack Douglas

@Islam some even did the opposite: biblegateway.com/passage/…

Islam

@JackDouglas written by Paul:(

Jack Douglas

@Islam of course: he was arguing against it!

Islam

he changed the message of Jesus upside down

need to go meet you soon

Jack Douglas

but see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism

AJ Henderson

1:38 PM

@Islam not to get in to an extended discussion here (we can branch off to a different room later when I have more time if you want to discuss further) but I would say that from a quick reading of the first couple chapters of that book, it doesn't actually find fault with Paul's teaching, just some interpretations of Paul's teaching

I haven't gotten to the part where they try to make the argument of how his teaching doesn't say what they are claiming the core of the gospels are, but I'm not seeing evidence of a problem yet, only that they have a legitimate problem with "prosperity gospel"

(ie, people who say that if you follow God and pray for it, he'll dump riches and success on you)

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/10383/…

if we want to have further discussion on it, I made a room we can use

though personally I'm out of time for now as well

but can check in on the room later

TRiG

@Islam Was trying to say something there, and got called away by a phone call. Let's try again. The most fascinating thing which convinced me of the Quran is how well it completes the missing parts in the gospels. A sentence before that you said you didn't finish reading the Christian scriptures, so how can you say that they're incomplete?

Islam

2:12 PM

@TRiG Gospels are different from the writings of Paul , a class apart

wax eagle

that'd be because they were written for different reasons, for different audiences, different authors...I'm not exactly sure why that's a problem

they are supposed to be different. They are letters, not narratives

Jack Douglas

room topic changed to The Upper Room: General discussion for Christianity.SE, pseudo-meta support, and help formulating questions. [christianity] [discussion]

hmmm, no idea why that didn't work

wax eagle

@JackDouglas probably doesn't respect markdown. I wouldn't sweat it, there is a link in the bottom right corner

Jack Douglas

oh, I see, raw links only no markdown, shame it's handy having a link to main in the room title

@waxeagle you are kidding me!

wax eagle

every chat room :P

Jack Douglas

2:23 PM

I never knew that

:)

wax eagle

its' not a part of the screen people are used to looking at. It's ad space

Affable Geek

Hey guys - an interesting question came up over at politics that might be of interest:

4

Q: Can the Vatican legally declare war?

Iosif Stalin once famously quipped: "The Pope! How many divisions has he got?" Technically speaking, the pope IS a secular ruler of a country that holds an observer status at the UN, and as far as I'm aware, has a standing military (Swiss guard mercenaries). The Popes of the past clearly had a ...

military-law vatican

I can think of many people here very well qualified to handle that (@AndrewLeach, @Svidgen, @PeterTurner I'm looking at you!)

wax eagle

@AffableGeek do you need your chat parent fixed?

Affable Geek

2:39 PM

?

I'll admit my ingnorance

wax eagle

@AffableGeek your chat account is not associated with the site you mod...chat doesn't think you're a mod right now. I can fix that if you'd like

Affable Geek

Oh, yeah, that might be nice :)

wax eagle

there yah go, you should be blue now

Affable Geek

Tis blue. Now to learn more about what havoc I can wreak :)

Thanks

AJ Henderson

not sure how they did it, but AVP has a link in their topic

♦ Audio-Video Chat

Former chatroom for avp.stackexchange.com. Video moved to cha...

wax eagle

2:47 PM

@AJHenderson you can link, just not prettified with markdown

AJ Henderson

ah

Jack Douglas

so it could look like christianity.stackexchange.com but not Christianity.SE

AJ Henderson

good to know, I always wondered why more sites didn't have something similar, but now I know

just always thought it was odd because AVP has like 1 active user

ok, maybe not that bad, but any network that I can have 5 times the next guy for the year in rep gain is pretty inactive

wax eagle

@AJHenderson we'll see how the split/merge goes over there

Does Elisha speak?

0

Q: Where is the StackExchange system time visible?

It appears that the system time for StackExchange is based on a server in a different time zone from myself. Where is this visible?

discussion

AJ Henderson

3:35 PM

@waxeagle split/merge? I know they've been working on something, but hadn't actually heard anything about it other than they were working on some new thing for it.

oh wait, now I see the new meta post

AJ Henderson

3:54 PM

hmm, I'm worried now, particularly since if I lose interest, video dies and I'm not sure I'd have the time for two split out sites, so I might just drop them both, that's the main reason I haven't gotten more involved over here

Jon Ericson

4:15 PM

@AJHenderson Hmmm... The hope is that the video site will flourish since people won't have to read all those sound questions anymore. I know there is a lot of crossover, but the Sound Design site seems to do well just focusing on sound.

Peter Turner

4:48 PM

@AffableGeek > St. Peter Chrysologus Bishop of Ravenna, in the same age as St. Jerome urges the faithful with this famous invitation: "We have given a year to the body, let us give days to the soul...Let us live to God a little who have lived the whole time to the world. Let the divine voice sound in our ears: let not the noise of the household confuse our hearing...Being thus armed brethren and thus instructed let us declare war on sins...secure of victory."

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/…

fredsbend

6:44 PM

@AJHenderson "JesusBoutghtIslam" (he keeps changing his name so many of us just call him Ali because that was the name he used first) has a long history of asking questions just like that one, for the soul purpose of attempting to discredit the epistles. I'm sure the Mods warned him plenty of times, plus he suffered two previous, much shorter suspensions, and multiple chat suspensions. It is pretty clear why for anyone who has seen him in action since the beginning.

@JesusBoughtIslam Fundamental Christians, by definition, would be Trinitarians, Literalists, and fully accepting of all Christian Scripture, which includes the Pauline Epistles, as the infallible word of the Almighty God.

@waxeagle I would clarify it, that without Paul's writings we are left with very little doctrine. Just the story and some parables. There is not enough in the NT without Paul's writings to start a religion, in my opinion. Therefore, of course, I say that Paul was pivotal first in the upstart of Christianity in the 1st century, and 10 times more pivotal in the perpetuation of Christianity for the next two millennia.

With this in mind, I can sympathize with the conclusions of non-believers that Christianity is Paul's religion.

wax eagle

7:00 PM

@fredsbend definitely fair. Definitely put a lot better than I managed to

:)

fredsbend

@JackDouglas A+ man. I just read those verse again recently and was inspired for the pull to unity under Christ. I wish all the denominations that really only differ on small things would come together as the Church should be.

AJ Henderson

@fredsbend yeah, I heard about that a bit, thanks for the heads up

@fredsbend in some areas they do pretty well

wax eagle

(complete topic change) is it just me or have cars gotten more expensive in the past few years. Seems like you used to be able to find a new car for around 10k and now the baseline seems to be 15k

AJ Henderson

in my region, the majority of churches that can be classified as "Bible believing" get along quite well with each other

to the point that churches of one denomination even help with church planting for other denominations

and I'm from upstate NY

wax eagle

@AJHenderson that's cool. My church has actually spent the past several years meeting in the building of another church that was offered for very low rent with a very amenable contract. The other church was too small for their sanctuary and had been meeting in their fellowship hall. We basically had put out some feelers that we needed a bigger space to worship in and they said "hey use our building, it needs some repairs, but if you can do them, it's yours to use)

AJ Henderson

7:09 PM

@JonEricson the thing about sound is that sound does stand alone though. Other fields don't hit on sound. Video isn't a thing by itself

but if they spec the new site wide enough it should do ok

@waxeagle yeah, one of my church's locations is a situation similar to that, the other location meets in a night club :)

ironically, the night club is the main location

wax eagle

@AJHenderson nice :). When we lived in Ecuador one of the churches we worked with had their services in a converted nightclub

AJ Henderson

it does seem like in some areas denominations are more transitioning towards support networks and general support networks that are non-denominational are growing a lot

wax eagle

@AJHenderson yeah

AJ Henderson

the bar that owns the night club actually invites the pastors to the bar for St Patricks day

and let them speak

wax eagle

nice :)

great ministry opportunity

AJ Henderson

7:13 PM

yeah, it's not a partnership you would normally expect, but it has worked great

but yeah, I think it's an exciting time to be alive in the US because Christianity is dropping out of the culture and it's having a great impact on the Church in the US

because it's shedding the cultural prejudices that came along with culturalism

I think that's why I'm seeing it the most in areas that are "dechurched" relatively speaking

wax eagle

The gospel shines might brighter when it's not drowned by cultural righteousness

AJ Henderson

just out of curiosity, what is the balance around this network of people that "wandered in off the street" so to speak vs those who came over from finding it while on SO

Jon Ericson

10:57 PM

@AJHenderson Almost every site starts heavily with SO folks and slowly gathers "strangers". I expect that sites like Gaming and Math are maximally non-SO at this point. Smaller sites, like this one are still rooted in programmer but won't be in a few years. (I don't have stats, but that would be interesting.)

Part of the reason is the way Area 51 works: there have to be enough network veterans to make it passed commitment. 'Course, these days you don't need to use SO to be a veteran.

♦ Audio-Video Chat

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