The Upper Room

12:04 AM

@Zoe I'm interested, too. My username at yahoo.

5:09 AM

@Flimzy Nope. I live atop the best, cleanest, and one of the largest aquifers in the world. (PDF).

@Zoe A creed is a statement of belief. From the Greek credo for belief. There was a council in Nicea where certain theologies/doctrines were declared correct and others not. Among them was the Trinity. Most christian sects today adhere to the Nicene Creed, meaning, they agree with its declarations, hence the term Nicene Christianity.

Flimzy

7:55 AM

@fredsbend Does that aquifer extend to Spain? If not, I don't see how it negates my statement.

Flimzy

8:42 AM

@fredsbend That's not really true. The doctrine of the Trinity didn't come until a quarter century after the first council of Nicea.

Zoe

12:09 PM

@fredsbend Haha I sent to the wrong username, will send it now again

@fredsbend I don't really like something christianity.

Flimzy

Hello @Zoe

Zoe

@Flimzy Heeeeello!

@Flimzy Grant me a general equation to your e-mail address. I can solve it. I'm a teacher.

Flimzy

haha

alright

${my user name}@${my user name}.com

Zoe

@Flimzy Wait, are you serious? If not, that is tooooo general. It's harder to solve than y=mx+c!

Flimzy

My user name here...

Flimzy

Zoe

12:21 PM

Should I add in dah $ sign?

Flimzy

no

Zoe

Okay, I am a lousy teacher, as this situation has proven me. I got a delivery failure notification.

Flimzy

oops

flimzy at flimzy period com

Zoe

I'm very sure that was what I input in the address...

Let moi try again.

Do you got it

I still get a failure.

Flimzy

what does the failure say?

Zoe

12:29 PM

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

I'm scrutinizing the words, I find no difference from what I typed to your username. Unless I'm missing somethang.

Flimzy

well now my email address is public for all the spammers :P

it looks like it was rejected as spam. let me allow your address then you can try again

Zoe

DELDELDELDELDELDEL

My email is long

Flimzy

hehe

okay, try again

Zoe

GO

-3

Q: Why do most Christians believe Adam and Eve were tempted when it is not in the bible?

This is related to questions 46. the bible did not say anywhere that Eve was tempted The bible did not say anywhere that Adam was tempted the bible did not say anywhere that Adam was deceived the bible did say Eve was deceived (1 Tim 2:14) the bible did say Adam was not deceived (1 Tim 2:14) th...

adam

Flimzy

Got it!

Zoe

12:32 PM

Lol I don't believe....

Okay, finally.

AJ Henderson

3:09 PM

@Flimzy that's probably pretty (sunglasses) flimsy protection against spammers

Flimzy

@AJHenderson Yes, I know. sigh

AJ Henderson

but then again, that's the reality of a domain

having own domain = having lots of spam and/or a good spam filter in my experience

atleast if your address closely matches the domain name

Flimzy

Well, I have a reasonably good spam filter.

When I don't like something about it, I change it.

That's one advantage of being the manager of the team that writes your spam filter :)

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy I don't have that variables in my enviroment! :-P

Flimzy

@PaulVargas It's time to upgrade your environment, then! ;)

Paul Vargas

3:30 PM

@Flimzy I will do it! Thanks!

@Flimzy Hey! Wait! How can I do that?

Flimzy

@PaulVargas apt-get install fsh

(that's the 'flimzy shell')

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy Don't works! :-/

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy nice, I use ASSP which is pretty customizable, but also a bit of a resource hog

Paul Vargas

"apt-get" no se reconoce como un comando interno o externo,
programa o archivo por lotes ejecutable.

AJ Henderson

I have one CPU core just permanently allocated to it

and it pretty much maxes it

Flimzy

3:42 PM

@AJHenderson I have something like 48 cores spread across something like 25 VMs spread across two datacenters dedicated to filtering my mail... :)

Paul Vargas

@Zoe Are you in Singapore?

Zoe

@PaulVargas Yea I am. Hi everyone

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy yeah, but I have a feeling you have more than 6 e-mail accounts

Flimzy

@AJHenderson Personally, no... but then those resources aren't personally dedicated to only my mail, either :)

Paul Vargas

@Zoe What time is it there?

Zoe

3:44 PM

@PaulVargas It's 11:44pm right now

@AJHenderson I like your pic. i love cats

AJ Henderson

@Zoe thanks, that one will be replaced soon with baby pic though

fredsbend

@Flimzy Sorry, a misunderstanding. I thought you were saying that the tap water in Spain is the best in the world. Why I made just a drastic jump in scope, I don't know. I see what you meant is that it is the best among other sources available in Spain.

Paul Vargas

@AJHenderson How is Coli?

AJ Henderson

I do love my cats though

@PaulVargas he's been doing better, the mixture of medications they have for him now seems to be working pretty well

Paul Vargas

@AJHenderson Good news!

@Zoe I would visit Australia. Have you been in Australia?

Zoe

3:48 PM

@PaulVargas I visited New Zealand. Nice place. Got to see a waterfall.

@PaulVargas No, I haven't. Would love to visit there as well

Paul Vargas

@Zoe Nonstop trip from Singapore to New Zealand?

fredsbend

@Flimzy Do you mean the word Trinity was not defined until then? That's probably right, but I think the Arian Controversey Certainly paved the way for "Trinity doctrine." I guess I should have said that the Nature of Christ was laid down as fully divine God. Is that right?

Flimzy

@fredsbend The first council of Nicea essentially said "Jesus is fully God", in defiance of the Arians who believed Christ was created by God. However, the council did not go so far as to say that God the Father and God the Son were distinct--the idea that they could both be God and be distinct came later.

fredsbend

I see. I really should read up on this. I've only been putting it off for like 15 years.

Flimzy

I've nearly completed "When Jesus Became God." It is quite interesting indeed.

Paul Vargas

3:55 PM

> So the doctrine in a more full-fledged form was not formulated until the Council of Constantinople in 360 AD.

fredsbend

@Zoe You'll probably have to get used to it, though. Among theologians and those who know, just taking the label Christianity might as well be as ambiguous as male or female.

@Flimzy This one?

Zoe

@fredsbend I don't follow some creed though. i read about it and forgot how it starts.

fredsbend

I have to buy it now, if I'm going to read it, but I won't get to it until December.

Flimzy

@fredsbend Yes

fredsbend

@Zoe If you agree with the creed, then you follow it, whether you are aware of it or not. Many Christians agree with the various creeds, but are completely ignorant of them.

They are still followers of those creeds.

Zoe

3:58 PM

@fredsbend I go and see the creed again and see if i agree with it

AJ Henderson

Zoe

@fredsbend Does follow mean like reciting it during church? Whats ur definition of following? If I dont agree with the Bible does it mean I dont follow it?

Flimzy

Evil cat!

AJ Henderson

the black one is Cole and the grey one is Shadow

Flimzy

NOOO

Zoe

4:02 PM

The Bible sure has a different definition of following VS agreement

so, I think I'll take the Bible up on that than some vague assumption of correlation

The nicene creed is like various parts of the bible put tgt

so by your logic, if i believe in the bible it automatically means i follow the Nicene creed. Following has to be conscious ._.

Oh, I found one part that has no basis in the Bible, at least not from what I percieve. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.. I don't agree that baptism is the forgiveness of sins.

Paul Vargas

4:20 PM

@Zoe Do you remember the reference in Scripture?

Zoe

@PaulVargas 1 Peter 3:21

I have a list of 5 conditions written down that baptism must fulfil in order to be the biblical baptism

1 Peter 3:21 is one of them

I never heard of baptism for forgiveness.... Repentance prayer maybe but definitely not baptism

Paul Vargas

@Zoe OK. What are the other?

@Zoe OK. I agree.

@Zoe What do you think about Sinner's Prayer? Biblical?

Zoe

@PaulVargas I myself said the Sinner's Prayer 3 times, one of which I don't remember. It is not Biblical as in not recorded in scripture as Sinner's Prayer like how Trinity is not recorded. It does have Biblical basis as being a prayer of repentance and asking and seeking forgiveness. There's no set rule as to what to say like the Creed or Trinity does (imo) because confession and repentance is still confession and repentance no matter what name it's slapped with.

Even if somehow, in the end, the Sinner's Prayer is somehow wrong, just remember Psalm 91:15

Matt Gutting

@Zoe The Scripture reference I'm being given for baptism giving forgiveness of sins is Mark 16:16, which seems a bit off?

And 1 Corinthians 6:11, which seems a bit more on target.

Paul Vargas

@MattGutting Do you think that is a passage inspired?

The last verses of Mark.

Zoe

4:31 PM

@MattGutting Baptism can be translated as the expression of one's good conscious, that verse can be read as "He who believes and strives with his faith...." you know, to distinguish those who believe yet sin time and time again

Matt Gutting

I think all the canon is inspired, yes.

Zoe

Well, the bible does not say if you are not baptised you will go to hell.

Flimzy

@MattGutting Which canon?

Matt Gutting

@Zoe In my translation, it says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."

@Flimzy Good point @Flimzy

Paul Vargas

@MattGutting So, do you think that the Textus Receptus has no errors?

Zoe

4:32 PM

@MattGutting Yes and baptism is the expression of one's good conscience towards God.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe I agree with that.

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas I'm not sure I want to assert that without thinking about it a great deal

Paul Vargas

@MattGutting That verse does not appear in the oldest manuscripts.

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas I know there's stuff that goes on with Mark

On the other hand the Catholic Church does accept that as canonical

Zoe

I distinctly remember a teaching in the Bible that goes something like, if you obey and it turned out to be wrong, God will still honour your faith because obedience is key

Matt Gutting

4:36 PM

@Zoe That sounds vaguely familiar but I don't know where to find it.

Paul Vargas

Are you a Catholic?

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas Indeed so.

Zoe

something like that, which is why I don't focus too much on stuff like Sinner's Prayer. I thought I was coerced into saying it but I said it anyway.

Still, Psalm 91:15.

Just you know, if thy heart does not stumble, you can even eat food sacrificed to idols.

If you want to be celibate unto the Lord, go ahead.

To me, food is food. There are things I dont eat because I dont like the taste of it. But if someone is watching, I'd rather not eat food sacrificed to idols lest I cause them to stumble.

If your heart feels uncomfortable following certain doctrine or creed or doing certain things you think is sinful/wrong yet unsure. Chances are you better don't.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe I think that the Sinners's Prayer is not biblical.

Zoe

@PaulVargas No, it's not.

Paul Vargas

4:43 PM

@Zoe And I think that for the salvation, two things are required: repent of your sins and believe the Gospel.

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas Those are the words that we use on Ash Wednesday: "Turn away from sin and be faithful to the Gospel."

Zoe

What's Ash Wednesday?

Matt Gutting

@Zoe The first day of Lent, a period of time when we prepare for Easter:

Ash Wednesday

Ash Wednesday, a day of fasting, is the first day of Lent in Western Christianity. It therefore occurs 46 days before Easter and can fall as early as February 4 or as late as March 10. Ash Wednesday is observed by many Western Christian denominations, including Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, and Presbyterians. According to the canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus Christ spent 40 days fasting in the desert, where he endured temptation by Satan. Lent originated as a mirroring of this, fasting 40 days as preparation for Easter. Every Sunday was seen as a commemoration of...

Paul Vargas

See Mark 1:15.

@MattGutting What about the other days in the year?

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas Well, hopefully everyone will do that throughout the year; but this one period of the year is a time that we as the Body of Christ really focus on it.

Zoe

4:48 PM

Acts 2:38 does talk about baptism and remission of sins but it goes with Repent and be baptised. I have not seen one where baptism stands alone for the forgiveness of sins though

@MattGutting :O

Matt Gutting

It's kind of like New Year's resolutions. You might make a resolution that you want to act on throughout the year; but New Year's is a convenient time to remember that you want to change yourself, and why.

Zoe

@MattGutting I don't think it is comparable.

Hey, but that's just me :)

Matt Gutting

@Zoe Because?

Paul Vargas

@MattGutting @Zoe Well... I am a non-denominational Christian. Although I attend a Baptist church.

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas That encuriouses me - what leads you to choose a denominational church; or a particular one?

Paul Vargas

4:54 PM

@MattGutting First, teaching. And second, the distance. ;-)

Zoe

@MattGutting I think Paul the Apostle led a life of repentance and restitution. I think we should seek forgiveness of our sins as often as we can. If it's like celebration of like Resurrection Day, then yea once a year but the Lord's Prayer is a constant reminder to ask for forgiveness of sins, known and unknown.

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas Distance is always a factor :-)

@Zoe We should seek forgiveness of sins as often as possible: but Lent is a time that we remember specifically that Christ died and rose because of our sinful nature.

Zoe

Our sins, the sins of our fathers and the sins of our ancestors who angered God with their idol worshipping. There is not enough for us to repent of so I don't think a period is enough but that's me.

Matt Gutting

@Zoe We are encouraged to confess our sins quite often; I know people who have confessed their sins weekly throughout the year.

But I don't think God holds us accountable for the sins of our ancestors.

Zoe

@MattGutting Accountable is not the right word, but we should repent of them anyway. It's biblical to repent of the sins of your fathers.

God judges to each his own work so no i dont think He holds us accountable or that we will pay for what our ancestors did.

Matt Gutting

5:00 PM

@Zoe I don't understand how we can repent of something that is not our sin. But perhaps Catholics use "repent" in a different way than you are using it.

@Zoe Do you mean you can see something like this in the Bible? Where - let me see if I can look it up?

Zoe

Do you think there is anything significant with the blood of Abel crying out to God? The blood remembers. It's in our bloodline and family tree, well that's what I believe.

@MattGutting I need to find it. Give me some time.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe No need to wait. Ask for forgiveness instantly.

Zoe

@PaulVargas I'm new so I don't know how to pray effectively so I start with the Lord's Prayer and let my soul go off from there. I usualy will make a list but after I do the Lord's prayer, I close my eyes and may or may not read of my list. If i didnt rmb to pray an item, it means it wasnt that important and i let it go.

I feel awkward when praying :P

Anyone here know what are generational curses?

Matt Gutting

@Zoe Welcome to the club :-)

Zoe

The Bible mentions “generational curses” in several places (Exodus 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). God warns that He is “a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/generational-curses.html#ixzz39oyAGLux

Go read that

Matt Gutting

5:08 PM

@Zoe How do you reconcile that with, say, Ezekiel 18:4 - "For all life is mine: the life of the parent is like the life of the child, both are mine. Only the one who sins shall die!" (emphasis added)

Zoe

@MattGutting Uhm, is one of the subject not sinning or something?

I think parent or child sins one way or another so. It can be said that the one who does not repent shall die

And the life of the parent is like the life of the child, if the parent repents but the child sins than i guess the child...?

Matt Gutting

But then how can one say that God punishes the children for the sin of the fathers?

Zoe

And if the child repents but the parent sins than I guess the parent?

If you don't repent, you sin. Because if you repent, the sin is covered? I doubt that our idol worshipping ancestors repented...?

One cannot say they repent yet continue on their sinful ways. If they continue, then they have sinned.

I think if the children repents, there wont be punishment as compared to if the children does not repent of the sins of the family. If the parents passed away, it is up to the child to take the mantle and repent for the sins of the family?

Matt Gutting

Suppose the parent does not repent; would the child die? If he does, that seems to violate Ezekiel 18:4; but if not, that seems to violate Exodus 20:5.

Zoe

If we can inherit Adam and Eve's sin from so long ago, I think it does make sense. It's like I can ask why does God punish us for Adam and Eve's sin

@MattGutting Does the child repent and come to Christ?

Matt Gutting

5:16 PM

@Zoe Here's where I have the problem. If the sin is the parent's sin, how is the child able to repent? Repentance, in my mind, is purely something one does for one's own sin; one can't repent of someone else's sin.

Zoe

Knowing there is punishment for the sins of your fathers should mean you should ask for forgiveness and repent so that the wrath of God can be averted?

@MattGutting Let me find what I wrote about petitioning against Satan

Matt Gutting

@Zoe But how can there be punishment for the sins of your fathers, if "Only the one who sins shall die"? Certainly there is punishment for the sin of Adam and Eve; but I wonder whether that's the same kind of thing.

Zoe

@MattGutting The blood remembers. My mentor told me that if the ancestors worshipped idol or dabbled in witchcraft, there is an open door in the family tree for the Evil one. Not sure if it's biblical but it makes sense

@MattGutting You take the text literally right? Have not all sin and falled short of the glory of God? What is one way to not sin? Repentance and restituion and forgiveness.

Matt Gutting

@Zoe Now that I disagree with; I think that the evil one works on each one individually, regardless of what others have done.

Zoe

So, for the verse to state, "Only the one who sins" is clearly contradictory to "All have sinned". Everyone has sinned so what does the verse mean by only the one who sins? That makes both of them.

It's like saying only the people who sinned will go to hell and the reply is "What? That makes everyone!"

The only distinction is: The ones who have repented and been covered and the ones who didn't.

Matt Gutting

5:22 PM

@Zoe The verse before this is referring to a proverb quoted in Israel which meant, essentially, that

children were punished for the sins of parents.

And as I interpret it,

this verse means that children aren't punished for their parents' sins, but for theirs.

Zoe

@MattGutting The verse on it's own does not make sense since all have sinned so how to choose which one to punish and not to punish?

Matt Gutting

It's not "which one to punish", but "which one to punish for what" that I'm asking. Do I deserve punishment for my sins? Of course. Do I deserve punishment for my great-grandfather's sins? No.

Zoe

@MattGutting No one deserves it but it is what it is in the Bible.

@MattGutting I don't see it that way because that verse was really general and not specific.

Matt Gutting

Perhaps context would help. Here are the previous few verses:

The word of the LORD came to me: Son of man,
what is the meaning of this proverb you recite in the land of Israel:

“Parents eat sour grapes,
but the children’s teeth are set on edge”?

As I live—oracle of the Lord GOD: I swear that none of you will ever repeat this proverb in Israel.

For all life is mine: the life of the parent is like the life of the child, both are mine. Only the one who sins shall die!

Zoe

From how I see it, I compared the verse with the rest of the scripture. From my point of view, "Only the one who sins shall die." does not mean die for whose sins but just sin in general. That line on it's own does not agree with "All has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." For that line to make sense, it has to mean that either the parent or child has repented and therefore would not die due to whatever sin.

AJ Henderson

5:29 PM

@Zoe it means you aren't responsible for the sins of others, but all have sinned, so all are still guilty

Flimzy

I just paid the second third of my engagement ring today.

Zoe

@AJHenderson I don't see that in that verse but that's me

AJ Henderson

my take on original sin is that it introduced a sin nature that makes it so we can't not sin

Flimzy

And I've found a couple friends willing to smuggle it into Europe for me (to avoid the hefty import duties)

Hopefully next pay day I can pay off the rest of what I owe.

Matt Gutting

@AJHenderson That's how I understand it; the first sin changed the fundamental nature of human beings; subsequent sins didn't.

@Flimzy WooHoo!

Flimzy

5:32 PM

My take on original sin is that it's allegory/metaphor.

But I can't very well defend that position out of scripture.

Matt Gutting

@Flimzy That would make sense given your view of baptism.

Flimzy

What is my view of Baptism?

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy does that mean you think that adam and eve were not capable of not sinning from the beginning?

(or do you believe that the whole of Adam & Eve is allegory)

Matt Gutting

@Flimzy Oops. Sorry, I'm losing track of conversation threads. I'm confusing you with...I don't know. Anyway, strike that comment. I may need to take a break, I must be getting tired.

Flimzy

@AJHenderson I think most likely Adam and Eve never physically existed.

@MattGutting hehe

@AJHenderson Right, I believe the story of adam and eve is also allegory/metaphor

My leaning is toward the idea that somewhere along the line, God implanted the ability to relate to him (call it a 'spirit' or whatever you will) into humanoids

Zoe

5:36 PM

I actually think the story of Adam and Eve was over simplified

Flimzy

And at that point they developed the ability to not sin.

Prior to that, the only option for all animals (including pre-God-relationg humanoids) was to "live according to the flesh"

Of course we don't call that sin, when it's the only option... we just call it "instinct"

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy an interesting theory, out of curiosity, what do you think of my theory from the other day?

Flimzy

Don't press me on too many details... I wouldn't say it's a fully formed/researched theory :)

@AJHenderson: Which theory? I'm not sure I remember

AJ Henderson

my concept is rather similar, but I view Adam and Eve as real

basically, I view humanoid species as evolving, then a perfect form with free will being created by God

Flimzy

@AJHenderson: Are you a fan of Hugh Ross? I think he holds a similar view.

Although he denies evolution, IIRC.

AJ Henderson

5:39 PM

and then after the fall, that nearly perfect form interbreeding with the forms that were evolving

Flimzy

ahh

hrm

AJ Henderson

there are lots of both biblical and scientific backings towards it

Zoe

brb

AJ Henderson

because there were clearly other people present when Cain was sent away

and the sons of God intermarried with the daughters of man

and you look at the geneology of Adam and you start seeing a rapid deterioration in age

Flimzy

I haven't really considered that... it sounds plausible enough to warrant consideration

AJ Henderson

5:40 PM

which could be the result of genetic degredation

and the rate of fall off is about right

Flimzy

Do you believe Eve was created from Adam's rib, or is that part allegory?

AJ Henderson

that I have no idea

Flimzy

hehe, okay

AJ Henderson

my take is that if it was revelead, it was probably revealed in a vision and they may not have had words for what they saw

could have been a rib, could have been stem cells, who knows

Flimzy

My understanding is that anthropologists say there could never have been fewer than several thousand humans at once... meaning that "humans" evolved as a group... there was never a single "first" human, but rather a first human community/population

I haven't read enough about that to even understand the theory fully, let alone know if I agree with it or how I would fit it into the creation account

AJ Henderson

5:43 PM

yeah, and that's the nice thing about my theory is genetically, Adam and Even wouldn't have made a huge dent

Matt Gutting

@Flimzy Even if that were the case (and it sounds vaguely reasonable), surely one of them would be the oldest and in that sense the "first"?

AJ Henderson

and sadly, the flood would have wiped out any ability to verify it (by looking for humanoids without free will)

Flimzy

@MattGutting Maybe. It depends, of course, on what one defines as 'human'...

Matt Gutting

@Flimzy And there's the rub. Defining what a species is has always been rough for biology.

Flimzy

@MattGutting: Even in modern humans, there are (apparently) degrees to which one can relate to God, and degrees to which one can exercise free will. This is seen in developing children, as well as in developmentally challenged adults.

@MattGutting: Of course modern society defines anyone with human DNA (well, anyone who has exited the womb) as a "person"...

@MattGutting: But that's really a separate matter from relating to God and/or choosing to act against one's instincts

I can imagine sub/pre-human population over time learning to choose to act against their instincts. Surely in that sense there would be a first incident... and thus a "first human" (If that's the criteria one uses)

I would imagine it as sort of an "age of enlightenment"

Zoe

5:47 PM

I do think that the story of Genesis is a summary. It would agree with a story passed down with massive trimmings or a vision

AJ Henderson

my theory is also somewhat shaded by my conceptualization of a spirit being required for free will and that being something unique to humans

@Zoe yeah, it isn't intended to be a creation story, it is intended to be a "why do people suck" story

Flimzy

But that concept raises all sorts of questions about salvation... at what point would members in that society who continued to act by instinct be doomed to hell rather than to annihilation (assuming animals are annihilated upon death--something I'm not the least bit certain of)

Paul Vargas

@All I believe that Adam and Eve were historical.

Flimzy

@AJHenderson Oh, I believe it is fully intended to be a creation story as well

AJ Henderson

@Flimzy but if it is, it is radically missing detail

Flimzy

5:49 PM

@AJHenderson: I believe it was a "My God is bigger than your Egyptian gods" creation myth. See here: bible.org/article/…

Zoe

@Flimzy But I thought the lion would eat grass with the lamb.... so whichever animals and humans or plants not destroyed by the end times will carry over to paradies, thats how i see it anyway and theres not much verses to make a valid argument in the theological sense

AJ Henderson

I suppose it is also a story about God's role vs ours

Paul Vargas

@All And I believe that God created man.

Flimzy

@Zoe That's a valid point... I don't know if the lion & lamb thing is just a metaphor, or if it's meant to be literal. If all animals are meant to be resurrected in heaven, it's going to be, literally, a ZOO!

AJ Henderson

so yeah, it's a creation story I guess, but not designed to historically chronolog how it happened

Matt Gutting

5:50 PM

@PaulVargas I'm not entirely decided one way or the other; I lean towards "they existed" but I'm allowing for the presence of a great deal of metaphor in the story.

Flimzy

@AJHenderson Hugh Ross has an interesting take on the Genesis 1 narrative... You would enjoy reading him, I think, if you haven't

AJ Henderson

even if it contains accurate statements about history

Zoe

@Flimzy I actually don't think animals are resurrected. I think those that survive just carry over and be restored to their original state. Only humans are resurrected

OR MAYBE

There will rise a Noah that will be called to preserve the animals. I mean As were the days of Noah so will the... you know

If we wanna be both metaphorical and literal

Paul Vargas

@All Before the sin, Adam and Eve had sinful natures?

Flimzy

@AJHenderson Ross believes that it does provide an accurate description of the birth of a planet, from a scientific astrological perspective, as told from the viewpoint of an observer hovering over the surface of the water, as set in Genesis 1:2 with the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Paul Vargas

5:53 PM

That distinction is important.

Zoe

I mean, what is this desert that revelations speak about... how big is it... i hope it houses animals....

Flimzy

@PaulVargas In my view, there is no "before the fall" as the fall is metaphorical.

Zoe

But ye know, it's just my Noah theory that I developed..... a minute ago. Never thought of that before I love this chat it gets me thinking

AJ Henderson

@PaulVargas I would say no they didn't

I would argue they had the ability to not sin, but chose to do so, where as after that I don't think we particularly have that option by the nature of the world we live in and the nature of our flesh itself being out of balance

Matt Gutting

@PaulVargas No, I don't think so, at least if by "sinful nature" you mean one inclined to sin. I believe that Adam and Eve were capable of sin, but not inclined to it.

AJ Henderson

5:55 PM

@Flimzy it does sound like it is likely fairly similar to my conceptualization then

Paul Vargas

@AJHenderson They chose to disobey God.

AJ Henderson

because it is my view that most of the text can be taken literally as descriptive of what was observed and that through that lens it can map accurately to what actually happened

or atleast that is what I think is most likely

@PaulVargas right, they chose to disobey without any inherent tendency towards it

Flimzy

@AJHenderson See his pamphlet (full text online) here: scribd.com/doc/6669364/Genesis-1-A-Scientific-Perspective

Paul Vargas

@All What was the purpose of Satan to tempt Jesus?

AJ Henderson

we choose to disobey with an inherent tendency towards it

Zoe

5:57 PM

Tbh

Flimzy

Which is what I based my answer to this question on

Zoe

I think they were babies

Flimzy

10

A: How can the sun be created after day and night?

The key to this question is to recognize the point of view from which the story is being told. The point of view is established in Genesis 1:2: Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. If we read th...

Paul Vargas

Flimzy

@AJHenderson: Ross is an "old earth creationist"... he believes in an old earth, and most of his material is debunking YEC "science"... But he also spends time debunking Evolution... I agree with him on all his YEC stuff. On the Evolution stuff I'm less certain. But he's still a good read.

Paul Vargas

5:58 PM

@Flimzy What do you think about this conception of Universe?

Flimzy

@PaulVargas It's ridiculous. :)

Paul Vargas

@Flimzy However, it would fit with the details of Genesis. ;-)

Bruce Alderman

@PaulVargas It's exactly how the universe is described in Genesis (and for that matter, the rest of the Bible).

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