Charcoal HQ

3:06 PM

I wonder if autoflags should be R/A instead of spam. I mean, no one is ever going to dispute a spam post being "abusive," but people might dispute an offensive post being spam

tripleee

do we have any offensive posts triggering autoflags?

Mithrandir

@quartata ...I think I said that recently

quartata

I believe so

Like "offensive title, offensive body" or "offensive body, blacklisted user"

@Mithrandir Oh, haha sorry

Jan Dvorak

@tripleee applies to fire flags as well

Mithrandir

May 8 at 14:40, by Mithrandir

Wouldn't it make more sense to always flag as R/A?

tripleee

3:07 PM

@quartata I went through the three Offensive xx reasons in Metasmoke with Autoflagged=Yes and none gave any results

for example

sorry, meh, I had forgotten to zap the previous search, my bad

quartata

Also gibberish posts get autoflagged often

tripleee

two already here metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/…

at 156 and 220

though both are below the recommended autoflagging threshold

maybe we should simply have a different threshold for abusive?

quartata

metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/…

tripleee

do we really want those to be autoflagged?

quartata

Those? absolutely

look at them

tripleee

3:09 PM

24 autoflagged with Offensive answer, top score 252 metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/…

ArtOfCode

There are people who will dispute a spam post being abusive, too

SmokeDetector

CI on faba899 succeeded.

tripleee

@quartata they should be flagged alright but should they be automatically flagged? I would be very hesitant

Jan Dvorak

@ArtOfCode fewer

ArtOfCode

actually about the same

quartata

3:10 PM

@ArtOfCode Really?

ArtOfCode

yup

quartata

Well then.

People are picky huh

:/

Jan Dvorak

That's when we pick a volunteer to come and complain on meta

quartata

we already did that

SmokeDetector

CI on ae7e352 succeeded.

ArtOfCode

3:13 PM

@quartata it's because mods are picky about all the other flag types, so unless someone tells them otherwise, they're picky about spam vs abuse too

tripleee

the focus here is on spam anyway -- if we want a change, my proposal would be to exclude abusive from autoflagging

Jan Dvorak

in that case I want Fire to support R/A flags

quartata

that requires MS changes anyways though

Jan Dvorak

which is currently blocked by Metasmoke refusing to cooperate

Andy

Good.

quartata

3:14 PM

It's just we don't have a route for it

Andy

The goal of this project is SPAM detection

Finding abusive posts is a side effect of that because those types of posts trigger common spam patterns

Jan Dvorak

The room description says "smoke", not "spam"

quartata

that's just to fit with the charcoal theme

Magisch

I think abusive posts are our purview

Jan Dvorak

If r/a was just a nice side effect, should I nuke gasmask?

Andy

3:15 PM

> Headless chatbot that detects spam and posts links to it to chatrooms for quick deletion.

Jan Dvorak

Not that anybody still uses it anymore anyways.

Magisch

They're very similar to spam in that they require instant nuking and that they're very easy to detect with patterns

ArtOfCode

@JanDvorak no it's not, that could be done with the SE API

Andy

> Charcoal are the people behind SmokeDetector, a community bot to detect spam on the Stack Exchange network.

Jan Dvorak

@ArtOfCode but it's easier if MS cooperates

Magisch

3:16 PM

We can argue semantics all we like but essentially abusive posts are spam and spam posts are abusive

so this discussion is pointless

tripleee

@JanDvorak actually I do

ArtOfCode

@JanDvorak not much, actually

Magisch

Shog himself clarified that the two flag types are only there because users have gotten accustomed to the UI and that the 2 flags are treated equivalently by the backend

Andy

@Magisch No, spam is spam. It is distinctly different than abuse. It serves a purpose - one we don't support - but generally doesn't target a single person. It is trying to make some money

tripleee

@Magisch I think it's a problem that people are running with autoflagging thresholds set so low that abusive posts get incorrectly flagged as spam, it could affect our credibility

Magisch

3:18 PM

@Andy Spam is defined as any unwanted message transmitted digitally

And even that definition is quite narrow

tripleee

@Magisch no, it's not

Jan Dvorak

not on SE

Magisch

If we're talking SE, then this point is moot because on SE spam and abusive are the same

Andy

@Magisch Here's my suggestion: Go post on Meta stating that you are going to start flagging all spam as abusive and that everyone else should too. Link to Shog's message about clarification. Let's see how that works and how the community responds.

Magisch

and the only reason 2 flags exist is because of legacy UI design

Mithrandir

3:20 PM

@Andy on every meta?

Jan Dvorak

@Andy should I buy some popcorn?

tripleee

traditionally email spam was carefully defined as unsolicited bulk email (where some people tried to go for unsolicited commercial email, but that would exclude e.g. religious and political messaging) ... the bulk nature and the unsolicited restriction are significant

if you receive a message from your mother that you did not want, it's not spam

Andy

@Mithrandir Of course not. Go put it on MSE

tripleee

less traditionally, operators had to budge when people kept on clicking spam on e.g. newsletter they no longer wanted, so the operational definition is less strict these days

but if you want to have a definition, it needs to be stricter than what you were trying

Andy

@Magisch If you want that post to be more constructive, I recommend asking if the spam/abuse distinction is utilized by SE anywhere. Is it used for any type of analysis or any planned analysis in the short term (slight sarcasm thrown in due to SE's "Ability" to estimate development time)

quartata

3:26 PM

Although in all seriousness

Andy

One thing to really consider with this recommendation: Getting users to think of spam as "abusive" is going to take time. A lot of time. The youngest users here are 13 the oldest are multiples of that. Almost everyone knows what "spam" means. Not everyone understands what "abusive" means. Some think swearing is abuse. Others disagree that cat on keyboard is not abuse.

quartata

we already did this on MSO and it turned out fine

Magisch

I don't think there's even a need for the users to know this

Shog's post is out there, and it serves as guidance for mods

So we can just use one flag and point to that post when a mod declines it

Not that we need to care one bit, they can keep their 2 historical flag types

quartata

so really what we need is a pinned TL message

Andy

@Magisch Bullshit. We posted on MSE that was featured network wide for two weeks that explained that we flag spam

That post has been viewed 13K+ times.

Users know what SPAM is

tripleee

3:28 PM

@Magisch getting a lot of declines would be suboptimal

Andy

They don't know what "abusive" means.

Jan Dvorak

viewed mostly by civilians, presumably

Mithrandir

@tripleee red flags can be changed to 'disputed' after either outcome, pretty sure

Andy

As an example...go get a cat, put it on your keyboard, and post it's poetry. You'll generate spam flags, abuse flags, NAAs, VLQs, and probably a custom flag too.

tripleee

that's abusive unless you get the consent of the cat

quartata

3:32 PM

@Andy this isn't a good thing

although it's not really our problem

Andy

@quartata I agree, but there is a huge difference between "lksadghfoi7asedr09v 6 kjldf" and "CHINA UNIVERSITY FREE DEGREE FOR $3.50" in terms of what users see. One is clearly spam. The other is not welcome, for sure. But, do they know to flag it as "abuse"? If anything, I'd flag that first one as spam rather than flagging the second one as abuse

Jan Dvorak

It's more important if mods know to handle the flags

Mithrandir

If you get a declined flag raise it on the meta where it was declined, and the mod learns. We were considering having templates for stuff like that even/

Andy

Mods should know how to handle it, but the community issues and deals with the majority of spam. They should know how to handle the above two post types

SmokeDetector

3:47 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword in link text in answer, username similar to website in answer: Pitching Three Startups by Secure Web Technologies on startups.SE

quartata

sd k

SmokeDetector

4:22 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, offensive answer detected: Why the units of surface tension are force per unit length? by user156424 on physics.SE

tpu- by Cai

CalvT

4:57 PM

Neat! The SO app question is now the 4th most downvoted on Meta

Jan Dvorak

What is it good for?

CalvT

Oh wait. Just noticed this:

@ShadowWizard I'm not going to lie and say our Android app has gotten the love and attention it needs in the last year. But, this app is built in a shared codebase with the SE app (albeit UI changes still need to be ported) -- the biggest changes made to the SE android app have been secret early access programs which I can't wait to talk about after I/O :) — Kasra Rahjerdi ♦ yesterday

after I/O would be Google's I/O which is today

Sounds like some new features they can't talk about?

@JanDvorak I dunno

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword in link text in answer, blacklisted website in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Schema First WCF Development by neiljakson on stackoverflow.com

tpu- by CalvT

DavidPostill

!!/report superuser.com/a/1210198/337631

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Could I save printer's ink/toner by changing the font? by Cade on superuser.com

CalvT

5:07 PM

sd k

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: What is our skin made up of? by user32477 on biology.SE

CalvT

sd k

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating words in body: How to export c# sql excel? by Sviatko Sandor on stackoverflow.com

CalvT

sd why

SmokeDetector

@CalvT [:37466049] Post - Repeated word: marpicsaba

CalvT

5:16 PM

sd - - f

SmokeDetector

Conflicting feedback on How to export c# sql excel?.

SmokeDetector

5:55 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body, +2 more: worldmuscleking.com/phallyx/ by Extrelun on drupal.SE

CalvT

sd k

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector K

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Administrative level GeoJSON Polygons for African Countries by Mike on gis.SE

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector N

CalvT

sd n

SmokeDetector

6:17 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: Capitalize! Statement by Riyas Randhava on codegolf.SE (@quartata)

Jan Dvorak

^ seems legit

CalvT

sd fpu-

Was blacklisted for a garbage post

ArtOfCode

@CalvT you don't need the u on the end of that

fpu- is fp and whitelist user, not remove from blacklist

just fp- will remove from blacklist

(it doesn't actually do any harm in this case because it's only the username that's whitelisted, not post content, but just something to be aware of)

Jan Dvorak

Should this system be modified to be more intuitive?

CalvT

@ArtOfCode ah ok fe, I misunderstood

ArtOfCode

6:24 PM

define intuitive?

CalvT

!!/rmwlu codegolf.stackexchange.com/u/68954

SmokeDetector

@CalvT User removed from whitelist (68954 on codegolf.stackexchange.com).

CalvT

por las dudas

M.A.R.

@ArtOfCode vocabulary.com/dictionary/intuitive

Jan Dvorak

@ArtOfCode something such that you don't have to repeat the rules because people thought the rules were different

CalvT

6:26 PM

!!/rmwlu stackoverflow.com/u/7404680

SmokeDetector

@CalvT User removed from whitelist (7404680 on stackoverflow.com).

CalvT

I did it earlier too

ArtOfCode

@JanDvorak okay, so what should it be instead?

CalvT

Pretty clear to me - I didn't read it properly before

> Marks a reported post as false positive. Additionally removes the user from the blacklist, if that was the reason that the post was reported.

And fpu

> Marks a reported post as false positive and adds the poster to the whitelist.

Jan Dvorak

The whitelist is such a rarely used feature. Have u toggle the blacklist while fp doesn't and make whitelist only accessible via *wlu

SmokeDetector

6:31 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body, repeated URL at end of long post: Phallyx It will stop the debilitating procedure by Evesce1978 on superuser.com

CalvT

sd k

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer: Kazoo installation from source code by Cloud Pacific IT Solutions on stackoverflow.com

CalvT

waffles

sd k

M.A.R.

Waffles indeed

ArtOfCode

@JanDvorak Why not get rid of u on fp responses entirely? An fp response removes from the blacklist. Whitelist is only accessible via *wlu.

Jan Dvorak

6:34 PM

what if I want to fp without unblacklisting?

CalvT

@ArtOfCode then you'll still get people using fpu as it follows the tpu format

ArtOfCode

@JanDvorak why would you want that

Jan Dvorak

@ArtOfCode their last post seemed fine, but I still suspect they might fall to the dark side again soon

ArtOfCode

then that should be a rare enough case that it can be done with fp and addblu - in keeping whitelists being rare and shifted off to addwlu

Jan Dvorak

Worth trying out I guess.

Should fpu trigger a deprecation warning?

ArtOfCode

6:37 PM

I'd just remove it and let it respond with the usual "wth are you talking about human"

I don't think we actually have a mechanism for deprecation warnings

Jan Dvorak

deprecation warning = direct reply without further action

SmokeDetector

6:56 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: What does it mean when a rabbit has clear mucus like poop? by Christy B. on pets.SE

Jan Dvorak

dat shouting. I'm deaf now.

CalvT

sd f

M.A.R.

@JanDvorak WHAAAAAT? CAN'T HEAR YOU

SmokeDetector

8:14 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly dots in body: CSS for designing text and amount same line by user2995902 on stackoverflow.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Is it possible to 3D print sharp objects with high details? And how? by HP Technical Support on 3dprinting.SE

tpu- by Ferrybig

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in body: Updating ListView with CursorAdapter after an OnClick changes a value in SQLite database? by Nicholas Cherryholmes on stackoverflow.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body: How can I compare the sound of a synthesizer's waveform to an audio file? by Paul Mikulskis on stackoverflow.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Como carregar uma tabela Excel e transforma-la em uma tabela HTML utilizando JavaScript? by Derlei Lisboa on pt.stackoverflow.com

fp- by ArtOfCode on How can I compare the sound of a synthesizer's waveform to an audio file? [MS]

Jan Dvorak

8:33 PM

Note to self: when rage-quitting Charcoal, be sure to make library, name it after one of the bigger pharma spammer products and then popularize the library.

SmokeDetector

Restart: API quota is 7858.

NobodyNada

Hello!

SmokeDetector

9:43 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with a link in answer: If someone becomes a split-brain patient, which side will "maintain" the continuity in their consciousness? by Muneer Ahmed on cogsci.SE

tpu- by NobodyNada

SmokeDetector

10:10 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: On new iPhone, when I call people no one can hear me but I can hear them by Jonathan Hawkins on apple.SE (@CalvT)

tpu- by DavidPostill

SmokeDetector

10:49 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: How to use iOS 10.3 devices with Xcode 8.2.1 by Michael Revlis on stackoverflow.com

fp- by NobodyNada

NobodyNada

...I think

Kyll

^ Checking website history on MS

CalvT

sd - f - k - k - - - f f - k f

4

Hmm imobie.com has 5 tps but 6 fps

Kyll

@CalvT Yeah

Better unblacklist it

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted username, offensive answer detected: Scientific findings of strobe lights and the brain by GAY nIGGA on cogsci.SE

tpu- by NobodyNada

CalvT

10:55 PM

sd - k

Ok PR #761 submitted to remove imobie.com from blacklist

@SmokeDetector f

^ has been member for over a year, 2 badges, although only post

SmokeDetector

11:30 PM

API quota rolled over with 6485 requests remaining. Current quota: 19999.

math: 281
stackoverflow: 240
codegolf: 69
superuser: 62
physics: 51
serverfault: 48
apple: 33
english: 31
unix: 24
salesforce: 22
askubuntu: 22
security: 22
es.stackoverflow: 19
electronics: 15
dba: 14
scifi: 13
meta: 13
wordpress: 12
drupal: 11
travel: 10
arduino: 10
gamedev: 10
gaming: 9
crypto: 9
android: 8
mathoverflow.net: 8
sharepoint: 8
bitcoin: 8
rpg: 8
mathematica: 8
magento: 8
history: 8
engineering: 8
graphicdesign: 8
webapps: 7
softwareengineering: 7
gis: 7
webmasters: 7
worldbuilding: 6

SmokeDetector

11:43 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected: looking for 16 volt 20 amp diode by frank 85 on electronics.SE

CI on f690fc9 succeeded.

J F

sd - k

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