TRPG General Chat

12:00 AM

the more people get mad at each other in the game, the more angry they get, and the more permissible the "yelling" seems

godskook

"Jeffrey Lin: Yeah. So in our analysis of the whole player demographic, only 1 percent of players are the ones who are consistently homophobic, sexist, or racist. What's interesting, though, is that they're not responsible for a lot of the toxicity in the system."

That's Riot Lyte

gamasutra.com/view/news/239318/…

trogdor

this doesn't mean that the people playing LoL are all jerks, but it does make up it's own insulated community where this kind of behavior does tend to happen

godskook

gamasutra.com/view/news/191262/…

trogdor

@godskook I never tried to say they are homophobic or racist,.... people would use words that might raise a false flag for that if they are currently acting in a "toxic" way sure, but that was never my point

godskook

My point is that this isn't a "community" thing, this is a "Human nature" thing.

trogdor

12:03 AM

@godskook well except,.... this is a community thing

godskook

Why?

Shalvenay

I think it's something that's somewhat inherent to the design of games like League, where basically no matter how individually good you are, your team needs to be at a certain level or you will lose

trogdor

even if it is "only" because LoL doesn't have the same kind of safeguards that, say, this site does

Shalvenay

that's a design that is going to frustrate mix-and-match teams upwards of 80% of the time

trogdor

it still means I saw more people acting like that playing LoL than I did all my time on this site

@Shalvenay this too yeah

it sucks when you have that one guy dragging down the other 4 people, espcially if he/she seems to be doing it on purpose

@godskook i'm not trying to say it is the fault of everyone playing the game, or the makers of the game or anything

Shalvenay

12:05 AM

and highly frustrate the individually skilled players on those teams, and some response to the anger will normalize itself in the community because the game design isn't changing in response to it

trogdor

in fact, I think @Shalvenay has made the best point about it already

DotA and other such games also have this issue

I am not trying to exclude them from this either

godskook

@trogdor, what I'm trying to say is that you're no different than the people you're discussing. If put in the same situations for long enough, you'll blip that statistic just like everyone else.

trogdor

or trying to pick specifically on LoL

@godskook I actually managed to play the game for quite some time and never do that

Shalvenay

also, my understanding of League is that outcomes are highly binary

trogdor

even when someone was feeding horribly, I certainly got frustrated, but I never felt like saying something angry like to them was gonna fix stuff

Shalvenay

12:07 AM

it's not that a close loss still is a loss just as much as being blown out, it's that there is no scorekeeping outside winning or losing?

trogdor

plus, there was also usually already someone else chewing them out too

@Shalvenay yeah a win is a win and a loss is a loss even if it was close

godskook

Well, honestly, that's part of the trick. Angry people don't always think they're angry. Its truly fascinating that way.

trogdor

though people also care about KD ratio and last hits on minions and jungling and such too

Miniman

@trogdor Me too - talking to people is never my first choice.

godskook

Basically, the problem seems to be a result of -caring-, and damn near anyone who "cares" will act like a raging league player if challenged hard enough on something they care about.

trogdor

12:09 AM

@godskook I think you are applying this either too broadly or too specifically though, I literally usually didn't talk at all except with friends who I sometimes qued with

Shalvenay

@godskook yes. there are some situations where that anger is appropriate, and others where it's pretty categorically not.

Miniman

@trogdor It bears mentioning, too, that other games have this issue to a lesser or greater extent. This is absolutely dependent on the community, not some universal standard.

Shalvenay

(RPG matters generally fall into the latter category)

trogdor

@Miniman yeah, again, I don't want this to seem like I only apply it to LoL at all

LoL just happens to be in the top two of games I had this issue with

the other was DoTA

godskook

@Shalvenay, I wasn't talking about "appropriateness", but contextually, I was almost exclusively talking about "inappropriate" behaviors. Not sure what you're making a point about....

trogdor

12:11 AM

very similar games in certain structural ways

Miniman

@trogdor Yeah, that was really more directed at @godskook than you - sometimes we accept things as normal that aren't, necessarily.

Shalvenay

@godskook what i'm trying to say is that there are some things in this universe that are worth caring about at that level

Miniman

@trogdor I'm curious, which community did you find more accepting?

trogdor

when someone in LoL was ruining the game, I would usually just vote to end the game, or stop playing if the rest of the team wouldn't vote the same

godskook

@Shalvenay, but there's very few outside life and limb that warrant the sorts of reactions that come out of people at that level of caring.

trogdor

12:13 AM

@Miniman um I think the fact that I found DoTA more accepting is mainly due to the fact that I was better at it

godskook

Like....here's an interesting litmus for you.

Shalvenay

@godskook yeah -- I generally reserve that level of anger for things that deal with life, limb, or liberty

Miniman

@trogdor That is really interesting.

trogdor

and it was not by a very high degree either

I knew the DoTA characters better, partly because I could use them all from the start

and I acutally liked playing support in both games, and was goooood at doing that

godskook

@Shalvenay, I suggest leaving the anger away for Liberty. The level of caring is appropriate, but the level of reactions are generally unideal.

trogdor

12:15 AM

so people usually were not mad at me for stuff,.... usually

godskook

Like.....here's a weird pill to swallow. I actually like League's community better than this one, so far.

trogdor

I think LoL just had a larger number of people who were either trolling or just doing badly

godskook

Take that for what you will.

Shalvenay

@godskook I'm speaking in a generalized sense here, not in terms of immediate threats to personal liberty

Miniman

@godskook How come?

trogdor

12:17 AM

and I think the fact that my experience in DoTA wasn't as bad, possibly at least, because it immolated people who were playing too badly, and therefore left less of the toxicity out in the open for me to see

Miniman

@trogdor Immolated? You mean low priority?

trogdor

I mean they left

I think

because I have heard so much about how bad DoTA's community can be, I think a lot of the people who were subjected to the toxicity due to possilbly poor play had left at some point, and maybe my experience wasn't typical due to that

godskook

@Miniman It's....overly restrictive on what can and can't be said. Basically, the same complaint I have about the Playground.

Miniman

@godskook Ah, yeah, a lot of people dislike this community for that reason.

trogdor

@Miniman if we go solely off of my own personal experience, DoTA had a little less player toxicity, it still had plenty but a little less

Miniman

12:20 AM

@trogdor Well, victims of toxicity leaving wouldn't mean you saw less.

trogdor

my point is that LoL may just have had a lot more new players coming into it when I was playing it, for example

@Miniman it might if some of the toxicity was caused by seeing someone mess up at something caused it to come out

Miniman

@trogdor So, how DotA works, is that if you're caught being toxic, you get moved to low priority, and play in a special pool of players who were also caught being toxic.

trogdor

it doesn't mean the guy isn't capable of becoming toxic just because he said nothing that game, is what I am saying

@Miniman do you mean DoTA 2?

Miniman

I've played in a low priority game (at an Internet cafe, so I wasn't on my own account), and it is hell down there.

trogdor

because I played the origional on Battle.net

Miniman

12:22 AM

@trogdor Yeah, sorry, I just assumed.

trogdor

@Miniman I don't doubt that 2 can be hella toxic

but I was just talking about the first one

Miniman

@trogdor Those days were a whole different ballgame.

trogdor

not saying one wasn't toxic at all, but I doubt it was bad as the worst 2 can conjure

Miniman

I kinda miss it, although not having to deal with everyone maphacking.

trogdor

@Miniman that was annoying when it happened, but I didn't see it often myself

definitely saw it, but not on the level you might have

Miniman

12:24 AM

@trogdor Yeah, that's my assumptions getting in the way. Comparing DotA on Battlenet to LoL is very much apples to oranges.

trogdor

@Miniman yeah, it is

Miniman

@trogdor I mostly played on Garena, where I think things were a bit different.

godskook

Wait, did you see low-priority queue?

trogdor

@Miniman I played some on Garena at the tail end, but that was actually literally just to matchmake with a large group of freinds, there were enough of us to be on both teams

godskook

@trogdor?

trogdor

12:26 AM

so I never experienced the randomness of the comunity on it

Miniman

@godskook trogdor just pointed out that he never played DotA 2, only DotA 1 back on battlenet.

godskook

Ah?

I might've missed a few pronoun attachments.

trogdor

@godskook yeah, I just meant that I did use Garena to play the first DoTA

Miniman

@godskook But yeah, I've seen low prio, and it is worse than the worst I ever saw in League.

trogdor

but when I moved to that I was only playing with that group of freinds anymore

@Miniman I don't doubt it

Miniman

12:29 AM

@trogdor But the thing is, most players will never see low prio. You have to be consistently reported to get there, and it has to be the real deal. People can report you for "being bad" as much as they want (although in my experience they don't, generally), and it won't ever matter.

trogdor

I think part of my experience with it is, the overall community of this kind of game was smaller when I played DoTA, I switched to LoL a little later and the community was larger

and I never played DoTA 2, which I always suspected was going to be full of people who had played at least either the first DoTA or LoL or some other similar game, or even a combination of any of the above

and felt some superiority thing

Miniman

@trogdor It's actually a (surprisingly!) relaxed community.

trogdor

so of course I am not surprised if the low priority que of DoTA 2 might be tons worse than LoL

@Miniman fair enough, I also understand that not like,... all people who play that kind of game are going to be jerks about it

Miniman

I mean, I suck at DotA on a fundamental level, and consistently play with people much better than myself, and they're generally very forgiving.

trogdor

after all, I used to play them myself, and even if I don't use myself as an example, I also ran into very nice folks playing both DoTA and LoL

that doesn't erase the toxicity I ran into, but it does mean that toxicity was not my sole experience by far

Papayaman1000

12:37 AM

don't even bother greeting me shalvenay I'm out the door

godskook

? lol

Hey, I'm kinda curious. Anybody wanna try breaking my system?

Papayaman1000

@godskook Eh?

Sure

godskook

docs.google.com/document/d/…

48kxp 50k gold.

Miniman

This is a D&D 3.5e variant?

godskook

Yes.

BESW

12:40 AM

You might want to define "break" more specifically. Playtesters are more effective if they understand your goals clearly.

Miniman

@godskook Well, you've left Pun-Pun on the table.

Likewise, the Omniscificer.

godskook

Its more fun to watch a player try to pun-pun and then have the real Pun-Pun show up and insult the player.

Miniman

My point is that all the ways in which D&D 3.5e is "broken" still apply here.

godskook

Assume no RAW/RAI logic-breaks like Omnifiscificer :P

BESW

> Pun-pun. You succeed with style on any action for which you can come up with a clever quip that makes at least half the players laugh or groan.

Miniman

12:43 AM

@godskook Ok, so this is theoretically an E6-like variant, but I can get 9th-level spellcasting.

godskook

How're you getting -4th- level casting?

That shouldn't generally be possible.

Miniman

@godskook 6 levels of wizard, gestalt into, say, Master Specialist for another 6 levels, and so on.

godskook

Oh, derp, didn't put in the prestige class stuff. Good call.

But that wouldn't work in normal Gestalt EITHER

Miniman

Nope, it only works in your system.

BESW

> Omniscificer. Given resources and time, you can make anything. Spend a fate point to have already made it.

ACuriousMind

12:48 AM

@BESW ::groans::

trogdor

lol

Miniman

@godskook Technically I can get 9th-level maneuvers, too, because that's based off your total class levels, not your HD.

godskook

@Miniman, I wrote that with only base classes in mind. As a general rule, assume that all maximums are capped at their single-class E6 cap, as concerns values gained from class levels.

Miniman

@godskook Fair enough, and I'll abide by that, but good luck finding wording for it that can't be abused.

godskook

When you show me an RPG ruleset that can't be abused with a careless DM, I'll start worrying about ensuring my writing is 100% to that standard, rather than 95% or so. :P

Miniman

12:52 AM

It's not broken exactly, but psionics quickly outscales spellcasting, and probably everything else, too.

While they can't get high-level powers, psionic powers scale with power points invested by augmenting, and a psionic character will end up with a very large pool of power points.

BESW

> Zombies, run! When a bad joke makes someone at the table groan, you can move one zone immediately as if it were the free one-zone shift on your turn.

trogdor

@BESW get outa here ya wize guy

neah

:P

nitsua60

@godskook I'm curious: aside from swears, are there things you have found/felt you can't say or talk about here?

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

hiya

ACuriousMind

12:57 AM

@BESW I...don't think I'm getting the reference here

Shalvenay

what's up?

ACuriousMind

Ohhh, is it because zombies groan?

::groans::

Miniman

@ACuriousMind You hear the groan, assume it's zombies, and run away from the zombies.

trogdor

@ACuriousMind yeah

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Nice not trying to go straight from a 1am end to a 7am start for @daze413. Those were some tight turnarounds. (cc: @Miniman

(But those were fun playtests. It almost makes me want to help establish a weekly series, or something.)

BESW

12:57 AM

Also it's an interactive story that gamifies exercise.

godskook

@nitsua60, yes. Although honestly, I'd rather not dwell on it.

nitsua60

@godskook Fair enough.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah -- those weren't bad at all. mind if we talk some in a few here re: last night?

nitsua60

Sure, though I'd suggest the NAB as there seems to be plenty of convo happening here.

Miniman

@nitsua60 I know how you feel - I keep being bored and thinking "is there something I can ask people to come try out?"

nitsua60

1:00 AM

@Miniman It's almost like it'd be nice to have a standard format where any player could come drop in and play just... Encounters. =)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 I was actually thinking Discord

godskook

Which one of you is Jared?

Shalvenay

@godskook eh, what?

godskook

Someone named Jared, I think from this chat, left a comment on my doc.

Although I realize its could be from elsewhere now.

Miniman

Wow, incarnum really shines here. You didn't even think about it, and all of the obvious abuses have already been limited by the system.

> Damage can not be both “precise” and a power attack at the same time.

Just to kill that particular piece of build diversity, or is there a non-obvious motivation for this?

godskook

1:16 AM

@Miniman, Incarnum shines without that, just fine.

I killed it because I didn't want Scout+Rogue+Barbarian to be the highest damage build period.

Miniman

@godskook I meant that its tight design really gets shown off here in that it's already limited in all the ways you'd like it to be, without you having to do anything to it.

godskook

Ah.

Ooh.

BTW, until I see a reason not to, Open X Chakra grants an actual chakra bind.

@Miniman

docs.google.com/document/d/…

That's where I'm putting things that aren't part of the Approach system.

General houserules that I'd probably keep even if I changed off Approach.

Also, at this point in the balancing the variant, I keep getting the impression that Scout is SUPER OP.

+4d6 to most things that you're doing, on top a perfectly reasonable chassis.

Shalvenay

hey there @RollingFeles

Miniman

@godskook Well, normally the drawback is that you can't (without some effort) make multiple attacks. Here that's...actually still the case, now that I think about it.

RollingFeles

@Shalvenay hi! how're things going?

godskook

1:25 AM

Dipping Barbarian 1 is not a particularly huge drawback, imho.

Shalvenay

@RollingFeles alright here, as for you?

godskook

Like.....in this variant, going Cleric 1/Barbarian 1 with Travel Devotion gives you literally all the movement you could possibly want in a day.

Miniman

@godskook True! But while that works for most classes, because they are either a) within 5 feet of their enemy and can therefore make a full attack, or b) not within 5 feet and can therefore charge, the Scout can only apply their damage in scenario b).

godskook

With Totemist 6//Scout 6//Barbarian 1, you should be killing MOST things you fight, just by charging them.

And then you can grab Psychic Warrior for Hustle

Miniman

Oh, I'm not saying it's not manageable. But that's how the game works - you put the effort in, and it gets rewarded.

godskook

1:31 AM

Well, I just didn't want the "easy" option of Scout+Rogue+Ninja Warforged to be dealing 7*(10d6+18) damage before factoring in anything other than precision/PA damage.

Miniman

@godskook On this subject, I thought there were rules for stacking classes that grant turn attempts, but I can't find anything atm.

daze413

@nitsua60 <3

godskook

@Miniman, for WHAT?

Turning attempts are 3+Cha, and effective turning level for the power of the action is your effective cleric level.

For the latter, everything stacks in Vanilla.

RollingFeles

@Shalvenay good. Played DW yesterday. Actually, ran it. It was a great fun. My players are very sly and I like it.

Miniman

@godskook It's the turn attempts that have me scratching my head - I really thought it didn't let classes stack for a greater pool, but I can't find rules to that effect.

Ben

1:35 AM

So... Developing my idea on "chases" that I brought up the other day. (Enter large cavern... Surpise! A giant monster is now chasing you)

Miniman

@godskook Nvm, I found it.

Ben

The only catch is, you're going to have a player that wants to face off. Because "All conflicts should be level appropriate"

Shalvenay

hey there @Ben

@RollingFeles xD awesome. wrapped up the short-form stuff with Nitsua last night -- had to bring it to a slightly early end due to RL time concerns, but it was still good nonetheless

daze413

@Ben related reading: (warning, angrygm link) Ask Angry: Run Away, Run Away

Shalvenay

hey there @daze413

daze413

1:37 AM

@Shalvenay hey yo

Miniman

@Ben Well, also because running away doesn't really work.

Shalvenay

@RollingFeles say -- did you ever take a shot at the dungeon I've been working on for that matter?

RollingFeles

@Shalvenay glad to hear that :)

Miniman

Unless you can fly and they can't, or teleportation, and so on.

RollingFeles

@Shalvenay nope.

Shalvenay

1:38 AM

@RollingFeles aah, we'll have to try that sometime :D

RollingFeles

Look like I totally missed it.

daze413

@Miniman i disagree. With a proper chase table, it's guaranteed to resolve itself like a good combat.

nitsua60

@daze413 Those were neat, flavorful monsters you came up with. Ping me anytime you want to do some more testing.

Miniman

@daze413 "Chase table". Ah, you mean a thing that overwrites the normal rules because the normal rules don't allow running away to work?

daze413

@nitsua60 aw shucks, those weren't mine. I totally ripped them off from an indie game

@Miniman exactly ;)

Shalvenay

1:39 AM

...and I have a few hours now even @RollingFeles if you have the time to start now

Ben

@Miniman well, even with a few rolls to make sure you can keep up the pace, I don't see why not?

Miniman

@daze413 I feel like you're not exactly undermining my point :P

nitsua60

@daze413 And Gygax ripped everything off... you breathed life into them, gave them their freedom. (And then I killed them. It's the circle of life.)

@Miniman When you say "the normal rules," do you mean "combat-mode"?

Miniman

@Ben Firstly, giant monsters generally move faster than PCs. Secondly, when running away, PCs either use a) Disengage or b) Dash. Which means, even if everyone involved runs at the same speed, either a) the monster catches up with its normal movement and gets to hit them, or b) the monster has to Dash to keep up, but gets to make opportunity attacks every round.

@nitsua60 Yep.

daze413

@Miniman What I mean is, the tables are a good way to come up with the details that are relevant to a chase. Normally, you'd be evading these kinds of stuff when not under pressure. But, yes, it kinda does feel like the world suddenly gets more detailed when under a chase

Shalvenay

1:43 AM

@Miniman you're assuming the objective of the monster is to kill the PCs, too

Miniman

@daze413 @nitsua60 It's all very well to talk about chase tables and combat mode, but how would the players have any idea that you would do anything along these lines? From their POV, if they're in the middle of a fight and decide to run, it's not going to work, because the rules don't allow it to work.

Ben

Well, you just have to lay it out right. Say you're moving through... I dunno... a snowstorm. Then you hear something in the distance. (Perception check - can't fail) A large creature appears to be moving toward you at speed.

nitsua60

@Miniman So, my take on it is: the moment one party changes their encounter goal from whatever_it_was to "get away for the sake of our lives," in my games we're no longer in combat mode. We leave combat mode.

Miniman

Yes, you can decide to change the rules so it works, but the players can't make that decision.

nitsua60

@Miniman WHat rules have changed?

What rule determines when combat/initiative starts/stops?

Miniman

1:44 AM

@nitsua60 As in, how do the players know they get to leave combat mode?

godskook

@daze413, fun story. I once had a group of player decide to raid a mind flayer base while they were still too low-level to fight trolls 2 at a time. The entire existance of the base was meant to be a set-piece in the world ot make it interesting and flavorful and that the PCs should not go there. Apparently, droppin 15 Trolls at the entrance was not enough deterrant for this particular band of PCs.

nitsua60

They say "I want to get the heck out of here."

godskook

Who stubbornly ran -past- the Trolls and into the cave complex of a Mind Flayer base.

nitsua60

"My goal is no longer what it was when I started trying to enforce my will through violence."

Ben

I think you're just assuming that pop the ginat monster immediately appears in combat with them.

daze413

1:45 AM

@godskook getting in is easy. How did they get out?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Ah, so you've specifically told them they can turn a fight into a chase?

nitsua60

@Miniman Yeah--that's explicitly laid out in my "here's some things that you should know about me, let's discuss them if you feel they need discussing."

Shalvenay

@Ben that's a point as well

godskook

@daze413, they got broken out by a guild one of the players was trying to join, cause they knew he was worth breaking out. Cost that player his guild membership opportunity.

Shalvenay

the monster may not want to fight the party

godskook

1:46 AM

@daze413, His fault for leading them into a mind flayer base, to be fair.

Miniman

@Ben I think you're missing my point. When a giant monster appears, how do the players know that they're in "chase mode" and not in "combat mode"?

nitsua60

To me the rules' only sane interpretation is that "chase"--the running away half of it--is a mode of movement very different from combat-movement even with the Dash action.

@godskook Please stop it.

godskook

Oh, the swearing. right, sorry.

I really don't do it on purpose.

RollingFeles

@Shalvenay thanks for the offer, but I'm in an office right now. It's almost 9 a.m. and a working day here. I'm gonna take vacation soon, so I think we could try and timezones wouldn't be the issue.

Miniman

@nitsua60 And yeah, if you tell your players that running away will work, then they're far more likely to see running away as an option.

RollingFeles

1:47 AM

(my speaking will be :D)

nitsua60

@godskook Understood/understandable. That's the same thing I tell my wife when we're trying to get three kids on the road at a specific time =)

daze413

@Miniman that depends on the kind of game. If youre running a hack and slash, then they won't.

Shalvenay

@RollingFeles ah. so you'll be on weekday evenings USTZ son then?

@daze413 yeah -- Nitsua's rather explicit that he isn't running a pure hack-n-slash, but something closer to an OSR game

Ben

My thought process is that this party has wandered into the big monster's territory. It's identified them, from a distance, and has started running at them, from a long way away; giving the party time to identify the enemy. The intention of the big monster are unclear, other than it looks angry, and is charging right at them.

nitsua60

@Miniman So for me it's explicitly: if your goal is A we'll use the A ruleset; if your goal is B we'll use the B-rules.

godskook

1:49 AM

@nitsua60 Might want to be more specific next time you yell at people though. Took me a good 2 seconds to figure out what you meant.

Miniman

@daze413 "No such thing as D&D", and all that, but the default assumption is generally that monster = fight.

Ben

So, the party then feels they have two choices: run, or fight.

Shalvenay

@Miniman that's a 3.x (and 4e FWIW) assumption

Ben

As the DM, I know that the "fight" option does not end well.

godskook

@Ben, without additional context, 99% of players will "fight"

Shalvenay

1:50 AM

(culturally speaking that is -- the rules for all edition of D&D support both)

nitsua60

@godskook The message I wrote was a reply to the one containing the swear. I didn't want to overly-draw attention to it and thought that would suffice. M'bad.

daze413

@Ben If the monster is like me, and I see a stray dog sniffing around my house? I try to chase it away but after a few strides when it tucks its tail and runs, I generally disengage because what if the stray was a distraction, right?

Ben

@daze413 if that's it's intention, yeah

Shalvenay

@godskook I'm not so sure about this -- it really depends on the assumptions in play at the table. an OSR-type table is going to skew very differently than something hack-and-slash

Ben

@godskook regardless of the percentage, that's what I want to avoid.

godskook

1:52 AM

@Shalvenay, system-dependent, sure. In white-wolf, I'll assume that if I don't know what something is, I should ~probably~ run.

@Ben, the best way to excuse an undefeatable encounter is to put up really big "SIGNS" saying that it is undefeatable.

Ben

hence the ask angry article @daze413 provided

daze413

@Miniman That's true. It's the same with monsters fighting to their deaths when they don't really need to. You, as a GM, think that the monster would run away, realistically, if it's been hurt, but you look at the chase tables and are like "maaaan, this is so tedious" (which, I am guilty of!), and just decide that the guy fights to their death.

I don't want every encounter to end with a chase... Though that's how it, realistically, would go.

godskook

@daze413, I actually like making some monsters run away. Adds flavor and lets players shine at something other than surviving the combat.

One time, I had players actually land a 300' snipe on a critical running enemy.

Miniman

@daze413 Also, particularly, Ben is struggling with this because at least one of his players believes that every monster is a fight.

daze413

@godskook If the players give chase every time, it just drags the fight on to the weird "chase rules" @Miniman describes. It quickly gets old. Believe me.

godskook

1:56 AM

What system are you running?

I've yet to have that problem in 3.5, so maybe this is a system thing?

nitsua60

@daze413 Do you give xp for a monster that's chased off, or just one killed?

daze413

@Miniman (shrugs) break that player. Kill his PC :) let him learn a lesson about your game. If he doesnt listen to the other players who tell him to run, then that's his fault.

@nitsua60 yeah, equal XP for chasing off a creature

Ben

To be clear, the monster is chasing the party; not the other way around

nitsua60

@daze413 Then it sounds like your players really just prefer the "let's kill things" game. They're going out of their way--literally--to do it.

godskook

@daze413, @Ben, if most of YOUR players know to run from a monster, then they can reinforce the idea with the errant player. Probably not as big a deal in that case.

Ben

1:58 AM

As for the system, I have a few different games open, all in different systems. So I'm not really looking at the rules side of it, just how to make sure the party knows to run

nitsua60

For no real in-game reward. Just the play-reward of "playing the game I like playing." (If I'm reading the situation right.)

daze413

I remember our Out of the Abyss game. (spoiler!) something came out of the darklake which was 30 feet tall and was just trashing the town the PCs were in. One of my players wanted to Abjure Enemy it (5e Vengeance Paladin). I said: "Are you sure?" Other players vehemently dissuaded him to do it. While they fought, I just listened with glee thinking do it, do it. In the end, the player decided against doing it and ran

Ben

@daze413 in my Dark Heresy game (I'm a player) every time I want to do something, out of the ordinary, the DM just smiles and says "Go on... It'll be cool."

daze413

@nitsua60 I generally like this kinda game too.

@Ben that there's a red flag haha. Well, depending on the GM

nitsua60

@daze413 Yeah--I definitely like it sometimes. (8am on Sunday mornings might be nicer that 7am, though =D )

Ben

2:03 AM

At this stage, it all depends on the dice. My charcter's buff enough to take most consequences, and there is always "Rule of cool". It's just a matter of considering do I want to walk around on 3 hp for the rest of this mission, or can that wait.

Miniman

@daze413 Is there a reason you wouldn't try just talking to them first?

daze413

@nitsua60 Heh. Sorry about that :D We'll shoot for a later schedule when I come up with another thing that needs playtesting. Speaking of which, you never said your piece about whether or not you think, if the PCs had died at the hands of the Shambler, it was "fair"

nitsua60

@daze413 It's partly on my end. I need to be wrapped up by 9am Eastern, for Mass with the fam.

daze413

meta: how do I know which message was the one replied to, if it's way way up the chat?

nitsua60

@daze413 click on the right-angle arrow that indicates it's a reply.

daze413

2:05 AM

What I do is just zoom out and try to find it. Am I missing something?

nitsua60

@daze413 [try it on this one]

Ben

Ususally people will link it directly.

daze413

@nitsua60 this is definitely much easier

@Miniman Ah, yeah sure, at session zero we lay out all the assumptions. But in game time, we try to do less metagame discussions unless it's really disruptive

Shalvenay

speaking of game tendencies -- I have a tendency to normalize the supernatural if you will -- for instance, a werewolf to me is just "some bloke with funny shapeshifting stuff, a sensitivity to silvered weapons, and a bit of a carnivorous palate", not "OMG IT EATS EVERYONE IN SIGHT RUNNNN"....

nitsua60

@daze413 I don't have strong feelings on that one. As a general rule, I feel like player death's "fair" as long as the GM has communicated the threat in a reasonable way. I mean, I don't need "hey, it's +4 CR to you-all," but I think that telling the player that they're up against something rough is a fair reflection of the character's accumulated wisdom/experience.

Shalvenay

2:08 AM

...is this something that I should a) bring up in session-0 especially in campaign-scale play, and b) could prove problematic for my future as a DM?

Ben

Well, generally fantasy is somewhat fantastic

daze413

@nitsua60 As @Miniman said, the altar reeked of "don't touch it! just don't, Billy, I swear on the gods, don't!" and that an appeal to their greed would make them consider touching it, and that would make it less fair

@Shalvenay Why do you think it would be problematic?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay I think you should talk about it. If you're going to use a term like "werewolf" but want your players not to assume the sorts of things about it that are laid out in the MM ("ravening beast," "emerging to spread terror and bloodshed") that needs to be out there.

{"Werewolf" -> kill it! -> turns out that was a nice guy, now the town hates you} = giving your players the shaft, IMO.

Ben

I do like your spin on other creatures though. Like the spider-ladies. I was expecting them to attack, but it turned out they were just the admin team.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah, I think I definitely will have to put it on my list of session0 items -- I follow the text of monsters closely for physiology, but not psychology

Ben

2:13 AM

That was an interesting twist

"Oh, have you met Dave? He's been employee of the month 3 months running! Even with his.. uhh.. condition."

Shalvenay

@daze413 mostly, bloodthirsty players (I suspect Ben's "fight all the monsters" guy would utterly splatter their character in either of my dungeons)

@Ben hahahaha, that's Vlad the Night Flyer in a nutshell xD

nitsua60

@Shalvenay I think that'd be wise to lay out ahead of time. People playing this game have a big set of tools that are useful for dealing out lethal violence. And it's fun to do so. So they want to, and look for acceptable targets. When acceptable-seeming targets present themselves, players can be reasonably expected to enter "combat mind."

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah. that's something I kinda struggle with myself -- I bigtime want to dissociate target acceptability from intrinsic identity, but that's pretty hard to do in fantasy (unless you're doing a very, very gritty game in a system that supports it)

nitsua60

We're... much less practiced these days in the sorts of rationalizations/justifications that make taking another's life easier.

Thankfully, IMO.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah -- that's probably for the better for the most part

nitsua60

2:18 AM

You won't get an argument from me. My political beliefs basically boil down to "hey, do you think we can stop killing people so much? Where do I vote for that person. What, that's not an option? Crap."

Shalvenay

maybe the topic of "how to dissociate target acceptability from intrinsic identity" should come up as a mainsite Q?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay That strikes me as a tough one to pose well that, if posed well would likely rocket up there with "how do I get my PC's not to...?"

Alrighty--night, all.

daze413

2:35 AM

@Shalvenay You could try letting them in in your own thoughts. For example, what made your mind think werewolves would not be the regular bloodthirsty primal predator, as normally depicted?

@Miniman Sorry about that... But I do agree, combat is a sticky thing, and once it sticks, one of the sides that were sovereign glued together will break, whether that be the PCs or the monsters.

trogdor

@nitsua60 mine is a little more complicated than that, but I can definitely respect that one

and it does suck that there isn't "a guy for that" generally

godskook

3:55 AM

Yay, wayback has the video!

web.archive.org/web/20141003171103/http://www.youtube.com/…

Chemus

4:21 AM

@godskook What's with that vid? Were you talking about it earlier...?

godskook

Its just generally fascinating, and tangentially linked to things @trogdor and others were talking with me about.

We were talking about "fun" as it relates to games like League and Dark Souls, which always makes me think of this video, and its not on the normal youtubes anymore.

Chemus

Ah. Regarding getting good at games and the rewards. Yeeah, I saw some of that

trogdor

obviously, the definition of "fun" in a game is going to be different depending on who you ask

godskook

Its a long video, but he does such a good job explaining the various points. Lol, including that point, @trogdor.

trogdor

I can't actually see it

godskook

4:31 AM

I had to reload the page to the right date like 2-3 times to get the video to play.

And if its just playing audio, that's fine, the visuals are just background noise.

Chemus

@trogdor You run a script blocker? Turning mine off seemed to fix things for me.

trogdor

I am currently at work soooo

that has the most to do with it

I can screw with it when I get home

Chemus

4:46 AM

So far, he's talking about Dark Souls; if the difficulty were adjustable, then the risk of failure would be diminished, and thus the actual experience vis a vis sense of accomplishment and discovery (of secrets, lore, rewards, etc).

trogdor

I have never played a Souls game

Chemus

Ne Miether, but it's apparently able to be passed on to any game that gates rewards.

I disagree with what I've heard so far, but I see his point. If Noob101 can get the same in-game rewards and go through the same maps on Easy Mode as on XXTreme!1! Mode, then there's no point in extreme mode except to challenge yourself.

Economically, you value what you pay for. If it's cheap (easy) you don't value it as highly.

My counterargument to his is that if a player drops $60 on a game, he should be able to select his level of sense of achievement and level of time investment. The way to further reward a Hard Mode player is to have different levels of actual in-game rewards, such as the cooler looking items and abils only drop on Harder modes, and perhaps the Lore and maps could be similarly gated. This increases the cost of production, however.

Anyway, barring the language, it's a reasonable argument for making games inaccessible.

godskook

Why is someone entitled to a sense of achievement in EVERY game based solely on spending money on that game? Doesn't that strip the very meaning from the word "achievement"?

Chemus

They don't get the sense of achievement in easy mode. THat's what the vid is saying.

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