Heyo

hello

I am looking for an article that criticizes the D&D combat scheme...I read it a few months ago and seemto be unable to rediscover it

Well, I won't claim to know for sure myself, but SOMEONE here might know if you can give us something to go on

Well, I first read it after it was linked from here ;)

@DavidWilkins Do you have anything like part of the author's name, the site it was on, key phrases from the article, etc.?

@Pixie if I could recall any of that, google would be helpful

@DavidWilkins do you remember how many months? though to be fair even that might not make it too easy to find in the docs

Less than a year ago, more than 6 months ago

I think specifically, the author took issue with initiative... but that wasn't the topic it was linked to here

At least from what I recall

well, best case scenario, maybe whoever linked it is here or might show up at some point

Whoops! Might have found it... angrydm.com/2014/08/…

worst case is probably looking through the docs along the timeline that it was first linked and maybe finding it before giving up

ah

well that is great then, if that is it anyway

It sparks memories...rings bells

Oh yes...that definitely is it...bah! Wasted trip to rpg.se :P

lol

oh well

at least it wasn't annoying you for the rest of the day

@trogdor -- read that link from DavidWilkins --and it's rather interesting in some ways, I personally agree that initiative is a bit of a hack, but my problem is that I can wind up overrunning folks if you try to get too loose about the ordering of combat actions and reactions wit hme

yeah, I don't think D&D is designed to have fast and loose rules about turn order in combat

well, I mean, independent of the system

It's great for any system that is, but yeah

it's even a problem for me in freeform

ah I see

I can definitely see how that can be an issue

it occurs largely because I am viewing combat from an abstract-model perspective -- and my character is trying to get inside his or her foe's OODA loop

but, that clashes strongly with game balance and player agency -- sure, there are scenarios where it's quite realistic for one character to act several times before their target can really process what happened, but most RPers get really pissed off anytime their character is in that position because it in effect reflects the character throwing the player's agency over the situation in the garbage

I do really like player agency

I figure sometimes turn order can help enforce it too

and I used to not even think too consciously about player agency until about the time I started Fate

Though sometimes even in D&D I would feel like something was missing when I couldn't do exactly what I wanted in a given situation

I just couldn't generally pin down exactly what it was

my big question with DW is "how well can it adapt when someone is willing to twist genre norms in the way I am known to do?"

(great example of that -- me and Nyoze's extended FATE one-shot in the back room)

My group has experimented with Marvelous initiative both in 4E D&D and Fate, and it basically boils down to the person who just took a turn choosing who goes next

that's actually a very interesting way to do things

but no one can go again till everyone has gone once

it has been interesting whenever we have used it

@trogdor To an extent, readying actions helps this, but only if you know the circumstances you'd want to react to ahead of time, which often you don't.

@Pixie yeah, I was aware of this

part of the problem turned out just to stem from D&D just not having rules for things I sometimes wanted to do

Yeah, I know that feeling.

That's why I am mainly into Fate, and also trying other things sometimes

most if not all of my group feels the same way

back at that time, I wouldn't have been quite as willing to try a different system as I am now

not that it never happened, but I do feel that I myself am more willing to try new things in general, AND more specifically for RPG's

though to be fair, I may be a little too skeptical sometimes that any other system could give me all the things Fate can

even if that really shouldn't be the point of trying a new system, I just FEEL that way

sometimes

3.5/Pathfinder have always been systems of opportunity for me, I guess. It's not that I don't enjoy them. If someone I know says "I'm running Pathfinder, want to play?" I'll probably say yes. But if I had all choices in front of me, it probably wouldn't be my first choice.

also, BESW deserves some credit for being the person who mainly runs most of our games, and most of the new systems we have tried out have been from his suggestion/curiosity.

I collect free, low cost, and otherwise interesting indie RPGs and hope fervently for a chance to try them, someday. xD

though I look forward to next week because I have actually cooked up a session to run myself, which I have not done often. I also have not done this much contingency planning in the 2 Fate sessions I have run before

yeah, I assume that is a lot of what he has been doing

we tried Lady Blackbird, for example

that system is awesome, and I couldn't stop playing the lady's bodyguard, who was apparently a pit fighter/slave before she got her current job XD

One of the GMs in my usual group has mentioned it a few times, and I've looked into it some in the past.

It's worth a try at the very least, I think

even if you end up deciding it isn't for you after that

I think it could use a little more explanation as to how you could create your own character though, unless it already has that and I just never saw that part

but I think it does happen to have a decent number of good pre made playable characters.

@trogdor BESW mentioned that it's actually a hack of Solar System and that you'd have to go there for character creation.

and as I said, I really freaking love playing the bodyguard character so they did do something right for sure

@Pixie ah ok

fair enough

that certainly explains some things

@Pixie I think there is a pre-made scenario whoever is GMing could run, unless BESW was just taking the story they give you and winging it.

Yeah, Lady Blackbird is a premade campaign, more or less.

either way, It at least seems like it should be easy to try out

I do know that even with that it could be difficult to find the time though

Which is part of why I haven't tried it yet, because I prefer more personalization, so when I first looked at it and saw that it was tuned to one specific setting and premade characters, I set it aside.

ah

I can understand that

my point about it is mainly that the pre made nature should make it easy to try out

it certainly does lack personalization

that was possibly my only real complaint about it personally

but if you know the system and like it after trying it, you could personalize it better

Yeah, otherwise it seems solid. So I'm going to look more into the Solar System one when I have more time.

again though, time constraints

they are a thing, I know this

our group also has them, in spades sometimes

so far, we have gone quite a long time without our Australian contingent, and only just relatively recently got most of the rest of our group back for a game yesterday

so all I am really saying is that it is worth it to try, not that your group needs to do it anytime soon per se

@BESW it appears I have invoked you... you are welcome, I guess

Hmm?

Look about 15 posts back..on mobile or I would link

[shrug] I'm certainly not the one who linked to that AngryDM post.

No...I started by asking about non-conventional combat articles

I guess it got wierd

Ah.

I would link to several of @Magician's blog posts.

Heehe. Just was looking for the one article

angrydm.com/2014/08/…

The unbearable inconsequentialness of combat and its follow-up Self-defeating strategy, for example.

We

.... err. Cats, ?

What I meant to say was "well thats interesting"

You may also find @Bankuei's posts interesting, such as this one about initiative damage or this one discussion the relationship between iterative rolls and excitement.

@BESW this would make me scared if I was running 4E next session rather than Fate

@BESW -- the Combat as Sport vs Combat as War thing is a particularly good one for me, since it hits the nail on the head about one of the problems I run into on a regular basis with being seen as overpowered

@trogdor Well, in 4e we accepted that the point of combat was usually to have combat. When something else was the point, it was either not conveyed through combat or something was specifically added or changed to combat in order to shift the focus.

@BESW this is true

I would not want to skip combat in 4E,... it was most of the point

that is part of what I mean though

I also mean that Fate is just better at dealing with whatever the PC's do just because it is more flexible

like, I can decide where the PC's will be going in a campaign structured the way ours is, and decide all of the things and people who are in that area who I am putting in

then the PC's can decide to look for something or someone I have not prepped beforehand, but because it is Fate I can wing that

all I need to do is create the thing with aspects and skills that would be appropriate, and role play/describe anything that would fit

in 4E, I couldn't do that as easily, especially if the PC's tried to fight something I had not prepped beforehand

I am actually glad to be able to play my dream mage character a few sessions and then run a session about another PC's dream

I don't remember most of my dreams by the time I wake up, but the ones I do are never anything short of the strangest things I see

the Ironic part is that I NEVER think that until I wake up

no matter what happens in my dreams I seem to think it is normal during that time

Same here. Dream logic.

I quite happy to be able to explore the kinds of feelings people have during dreams and the strange stuff that happens in game form

Dream logic is just weird, and I think I even just tend to think of things that I would probably never think of while awake

a few times I think I even woke up realizing something that was bothering me without having consciously thought of it beforehand, and I couldn't remember what the dream I had was that pointed it out

though actually, for the dream session idea I have, I am not sure to what extend some of my ideas will work

because the subject has an exceptional capacity to go in any direction

(one of the main reasons I have a different session planned to do before it)

though I do think I can stat some things out and leave the flavor of those things for the PC's to decide

it's at the very least an interesting experiment

You may want to make explicit a setting aspect like Everything is normal here.

yeah

something like that

but if we go into Myca's dreams, it is certainly likely to turn into a nightmare

at that point, I am not sure that would apply anymore

I don't know that I would really classify any dream I have had as a nightmare

or at least not ones I remember at all

I do remember waking up one time actually paralyzed with fear, but I sure as heck don't know why that happened

From a design point of view, the first thing to decide is whether dreamworlds are a shared place (either created collectively by dreamers or as the place from which dreams independently emanate), or are individual realms tailored to individual dreamers.

And then to decide whether these worlds are inherently stable or unstable.

I was thinking that the PC's would basically go into Myca's dreams specifically

Is there logic within dreams, or are they places of pure madness?

that is the thing, I don't know that

IRL they are a strange combination of both

at least for me

I could just have it start as logical and then switch later to Mad

At least one part of the madness might be an aspect that you compel for mad things to happen, and PCs can buy it off with Fate points--resisting the madness and asserting their own version of reality.

good idea

(They can also use Create Advantage to get free invokes on it, to jerk the dream around to their advantage.)

Hey guys, does anybody know where I can find info about the Feinds/Devils/Demons a warlock with a feind pact in 5th ed D&D? the back of the book only has Deities for the cleric

for* a warlock

@MC_Hambone The Monster Manual has some stuff, and so does the DMG.

Nothing about warlock pacts specifically, though.

i am preparing for a session 0 tomorrow and in talking to the GM about my idea for a cleric he wanted more info about the deity. Since I have never played with the other players (just the GM) i dont know what people are going to want to play, so I came up with a few ideas and right now I am working on a warlock idea. But I need a list of all the entities (or types of entites) I can make a pact with

well, demon lords archdevils, and ultrogoths sicne I have inmind a very rough flavor for my character and I'm hopign researching the specific entity i make a pact with will help me flesh out the rest of the character idea

Just this weekend I saw The Complete Works of William Shakespeare, Abridged, by the Reduced Shakespeare Company. It was very good.

(It is a ~90 minute theatre performance and it is pretty funny.)

it is very good

just don't expect it to be exceptionally educational XD

i feel a little bit more educated!

a little yes

it isn't completely bereft

it just probably doesn't compare at all to a serious non comedy education on Shakespeare

considering it literally is a condensed comedy version

a hilarious condensed comedy version