TRPG General Chat

Miniman

12:07 AM

@doppelgreener I don't know what a fate-heel turn would be, but it sounds awesome.

Adeptus

@Zachiel Have you looked at the Sha'ir? (from Dragon magazine/Compendium)

Miniman

@Adeptus Is that the one whose familiar has to go and fetch spells from the elemental planes for him?

doppelgreener

@Miniman it's probably what Orcus did to Mechanus

Adeptus

@Miniman I think so... I don't know much about them other than they're a cha-based arcane caster who can learn more spells than the sorcerer

Miniman

@doppelgreener Wow, haven't seen that one before. That is definitely legen-wait for it...-DARY! Legendary!

doppelgreener

12:16 AM

@Miniman i agree :) i love that story

aaand bookmarked

Orcus vs The World (and Mechanus)

Feb 16 '14 at 22:01, 7 minutes total – 14 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 10 secs ago by doppelgreener

Miniman

I wonder what happened to Primus?

wax eagle

12:34 AM

@JohnP there's not exactly an obvious Jar Jar type in the book, so I think you're safe there :)

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman Did Primus go somewhere? I'm not up on Planescape canon after the core book.

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie I meant in the context of the story linked above.

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman I suppose I have to read it now!

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie Don't worry, it's pretty short :)

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman Ah! So, that explains why there are some wrong-thinking modron heretics who say that maybe Primus is only the current Primus in a line of Primuses. But that's heretical thinking that is nearly impossible due to the Primus<->Law relationship, so such modrons must be catastrophically broken. Even if they're right.

Miniman

1:09 AM

@Pureferret It's a shame you're locked in to the Pact of the Tome, cos with the Pact of the Blade that would be an excellent combo.

Pureferret

@Miniman That's probably the crux of my question

Otherwise it'd be simple

That being said, I don't like simple :P

Miniman

1:21 AM

@Pureferret Incidentally, none of the pact abilities nor the warlock spell list...what?

Pureferret

@Miniman Multi-task brain fail

@Miniman Done

Miniman

1:37 AM

@Pureferret Ah, that makes more sense. Don't expect an answer from me anytime soon, though.

Pureferret

@Miniman Not a problem :)

Miniman

2:31 AM

Incidentally, anyone on chat who doesn't mind losing 1 rep, this answer could really use 1 more downvote.

(It's completely wrong.)

Shalvenay

3:13 AM

o.O do you have specific text you can cite to overrule it?

SevenSidedDie

Oh no. The slow-motion GMPC trainwreck just keeps getting worse:

I think that's interesting to say, but I'm a bit isolated in that way. I'm 15, I live on a hill in the woods with 1 neighbor with kids my age (those are my players), I've been dissallowed from using social media, and as much as I'd love to focus more on play, I have to be DM. I also have specific plot points that any other DM wouldn't allow. (like getting pieces of an adamantine sword for my PC) and rules things (ignoring legacy personal costs for said sword) — Cataru Moore 12 mins ago

Miniman

Wow. It's like he knows everything wrong with using a GMPC, and has decided to go ahead with it anyway, because the wrong things are the things he really wants.

SevenSidedDie

This was in response to my saying that, if he really just wants to be a player, he should find a GM for the whole group and be a player.

Was I this impatient at 15? I probably was actually. And thinking of it from that perspective... this trainwreck will probably not be recoverable, but it will be an excellent lesson for Future Self to learn from.

Miniman

The thing is, there's no use telling him he wants to be a player, because what he really wants is to be a GMPC and overshadow everyone else like a shining example of everything wrong with GMPCs.

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman It's not even mitigated by saying that they figure they can avoid the downsides. Just full on "I want all the perks of being a GM corrupted by my own power."

Miniman

3:19 AM

At least he's honest about it, I guess. (Although I suspect not to the players.)

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman I suspect that the problem is "I want to play D&D. I want an awesome PC. To play D&D, I need other people. Now that I've found other people, I can play my PC!" And really, they'd be better off cobbling together a solo "my awesome PC" game than by wrecking their neightbours' experience.

@Miniman Yeah, I don't think they have any idea what slaughter they're being led to.

Miniman

Somehow I suspect a comment along the lines of "You should give up on this idea and go play Neverwinter Nights" is unlikely to go down well.

SevenSidedDie

The best possible outcome is that they rebel and force a more sane setup via the usual kids-jockeying-for-control-over-the-fun process.

DuckTapeAl

@SevenSidedDie And given that description of his immediate environment, it's very likely that his parents and the other kids' parents are going to force them to keep being friends, even if Cataru alienates them in this game.

SevenSidedDie

@DuckTapeAl I kinda doubt it. I've lived in the sticks as a kid, and when you wreck your relationship with your neighbour kids, you just suffer the fallout of not having anyone who wants to play with you. There are enough kids at school in town that the parents won't be all panicked that there are no social opportunities.

DuckTapeAl

3:25 AM

That depends on your parents relationship with the neighbors, and exactly how far out in the sticks you are.

SevenSidedDie

@DuckTapeAl Yeah, that's true. If the neighbour parents are friends or regularly neighbourly, that might be a thing.

doppelgreener

@SevenSidedDie theory: the primus<->law relationship says that as long as there is law, there must be a primus. unless someone else is embodying it. when that was no longer orcus, a primus appeared in order to be law.

SevenSidedDie

@doppelgreener This is a solid theory.

DuckTapeAl

Non-sequitur interesting article: nodontdie.com/anonymous

SevenSidedDie

That actually makes heretical modrons even more interesting. They're right, but only because they fail to fully grasp the highest understanding of Immutable Law, and are therefore flawed in their limited concept of correctness.

@DuckTapeAl Rather interesting so far.

Miniman

3:35 AM

@SevenSidedDie One problem I hadn't noticed, but is probably even worse than the whole GMPC thing - this is a person who has never played in or run a game before, and has gone through a crapload of 3.5 and PF books looking for ways to complicate their life, freely mixing editions, and houseruling all over the place for no reason whatsoever.

doppelgreener

@SevenSidedDie after all, one could say this Primus is just one of many, from a limited perspective - but truly, since all Primuses are Law, and there has always simply been Law, then all Primuses are just Primus.

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman No reason except to make the sparkliest Good-aligned assassin master blacksmith trying to reforge his father's adamantine Weapon of Destiny Mary Sue.

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie Well, when you put it like that, all my concerns are wiped away!

SevenSidedDie

@doppelgreener Law being pure and inflexible, every Primus is the same Primus.

@Miniman No effort to allay concerns. :) But I think I see the pattern that reveals the motive, and that is a heavy locomotive that cannot be easily redirected.

doppelgreener

3:52 AM

inane nonsense, could do with delete votes from 20kers

Miniman

@doppelgreener I flagged a while ago, I'm not yet 20k sadly :(

doppelgreener

@Miniman yes well i'm disappointed in you for not being 20k already too

Miniman

@doppelgreener Give me a month or two :P

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman Four days of hitting the cap would do it! Just need to jump on two or three on-fire 5e questions. :)

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie It's been a little slow lately.

SevenSidedDie

3:59 AM

@Miniman It goes in waves, doesn't it.

Augh, so tantalisingly close to seeing the error of his ways, yet still so far.

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie "My GMPC is just plain My PC" rolls around the floor laughing

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman Perhaps the error will be learned by doing? So much has to be learned that way.

SevenSidedDie

4:17 AM

HRM.

-1

Q: Alchemy Craft VS Alchemist Class

is being an Alchemist in Pathfinder the same as studying an Alchemy craft ? Is it a worthwhile class ?.. or can you become the same with alchemy with using it as a craft ? i'm really new to 3.5 rules here.

Miniman

Yeah, I downvoted for lack of research. I think it's clear what he's asking though, so I didn't VTC. (I'd be happy to hear an argument that would justify closing it, though.)

Also, that horrible realisation that I'd be 20k already if I didn't do so much downvoting. :(

SevenSidedDie

@Miniman I VTCd figuring that, maybe they have a problem they just haven't articulated to us? Maybe that's not taking it at face value and second-guessing, but I really hope there's more to it than "I didn't really look before asking the Internet."

On the plus side, being sometimes wrong is the privilege of it only being one vote of five. :)

Magician

4:32 AM

Morning!

Miniman

@Magician I'm taking that! How does it feel?

Magician

//collapses into a vat of coffee//

Adeptus

@Miniman Wait, did you check if it's good or not? You don't want to take a bad morning!

Magician

It had been quite enjoyable so far. I hope you're happy.

Miniman

@Adeptus It's a good one, all right :)

@Magician Suffer the pain that has been felt by so many of your innocent victims!

Magician

4:45 AM

//flails weakly, drowning in the coffee vat//

//until only blackness remains//

SevenSidedDie

@Magician Adding cream should fix that.

Magician

You would spoil not just coffee but metaphor too?

SevenSidedDie

@Magician The metaphor doesn't really stretch properly to cover cafe latte, does it?

(I prefer drip either black or with milk anyway. Cream is an abomination. *nod*)

JohnP

5:14 AM

Anyone know if there is a way to check your progress towards certain badges?

Miniman

Depends on the badge, but data.stackexchange.com has queries for most of them.

(If you haven't looked at data.stackexchange.com, I strongly recommend it: it's a really cool toy.)

JohnP

Hrm. That can't be right.

Miniman

?

JohnP

Oh, was just trying to get sportsmanship today. Used up 40 votes twice, and the tool is telling me I only have 63 answers available to even upvote.

Pixie

5:41 AM

Regarding the GMPC situation, understanding that the GM is 15 and in the sticks is helpful. It won't make it not be a trainwreck, but that's pretty normal behavior at that age, especially for inexperienced RPers. He obviously hasn't had a lot of chances. As @SevenSidedDie says, it's probably just going to have to be a learning experience.

SevenSidedDie

@Pixie Yeah, I'm much more sympathetic. It still makes me go "argh!" but I can sigh and see how it's neither preventable nor the end of the world. (And then throw helpful links like life preservers.)

Pixie

And I can't even really pick on the Sue/Stu thing. Let kids who often feel powerless and in need of attention and affirmation have their escapism. The only problem here is that it's almost certainly going to tread on the ability for the other players to do the same.

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie Reading those latest comments, I suspect you're wasting valuable time to no good purpose.

SevenSidedDie

@Pixie Yes. I can rattle off intimate details about this character's backstory based on the questions so far, but we've seen comparatively little of the real players' characters.

@Miniman Possibly! Except it gives me a warm feeling every time I link someone to How to Run Roleplaying Games whether I think they'll read it or not, so it's not a complete loss.

Pixie

I don't think trying is completely in vain. But the way of things is often that you educate yourself through floundering. I've always felt that the best way to learn with RP (as with many things) is just to do it.

SevenSidedDie

5:50 AM

Coincidentally, I just read something referencing the Czege Principle:

> “When one person is the author of both the character’s adversity and its resolution, play isn’t fun.”

(It's an interesting article on the art of "railroading" without actually railroading, or put another way, prepping usefully without undue fear of the railroad stigma: The Railroading Manifesto.)

Adeptus

@Pixie But, he said in one of his answers, that he's played 2e & 3e. Implying he's not completely inexperienced (as a player)

SevenSidedDie

@Adeptus I forgot about that. Chalk it up to immense underestimation of what GMing entails.

Miniman

@Adeptus Oh, really? I thought he said it was his first time. If he's played before it shouldn't be as bad.

Adeptus

Changing the subject... are there any good guides to running a sandboxy / less-railroady campaign? I've been running published adventures, but I'm thinking I'd like to make my own campaign setting

Pixie

@SevenSidedDie The way I'd put it, from my personal experience, is that others should have a meaningful impact on the resolution or what leads up to it. Style factors in a lot as well. But I'd agree with the basic principle.

Adeptus

6:01 AM

10

A: Should all players have their own player's handbook?

Full disclosure: I haven't played 5th edition specifically, but I've played 2nd and 3rd and from what I've heard there isn't that much that's changed to effect my basis for my answer. There's no requirement in any role-playing game that I've played that every player need have there own copy of t...

Magician

@Adeptus That's several different questions.

SevenSidedDie

@Adeptus Got yer reference right here! Paragraph five of this article has links to guides from slightly-less-linear all the way to hexcrawling sandboxes: thealexandrian.net/wordpress/25696/roleplaying-games/…

Miniman

@Adeptus I think you're talking about a different user. We were talking about this comment thread.

Pixie

@SevenSidedDie I second The Alexandrian.

SevenSidedDie

@Pixie He sometimes comes off a jerk, but his design smarts can't be argued with.

Pixie

6:04 AM

@SevenSidedDie Heh, I agree with that assessment as well.

Adeptus

@Miniman whoops... that guy edited one of the answers on the other thread... so it came up with his name as "last updated" on that thread (ie, yeah I got my wires crossed)

Pixie

Though it just reminds me that for a long time now I've had more chances to read GMing theory than actually GM. Or play, either. :B

SevenSidedDie

Must obey the clock and get some rest. Good night everyone! (Especially you who just woke up!)

Miniman

@SevenSidedDie Night! Good to see you in chat!

BESW

9:51 AM

VTC broader than a tarrasque's backside.

trogdor

he must be commended,.. oh wait

the opposite of that

Iron Heart

Hello!

BESW

Yo.

IgneusJotunn

10:22 AM

Hello

BESW

Hey.

BESW

11:27 AM

I have a smart phone.

IgneusJotunn

Congratulations

Welcome to the future

BESW

It is still a dumb phone, because I'm using my Razr pre-paid SIM card in it, but it is a dumb phone that can use wireless Internets and stuff.

A friend gave me his bottom-of-the-line Android when he upgraded.

Aaron

12:07 PM

Good morning

good morning!

hey

Good morning

12:24 PM

@doppelgreener I think there's none in my game since we're using core and complete classes only

Aaron

So one of my questions was put on hold as too broad and then re opened without me changing anything. I want to clarify it up some more as being specifically as a checklist of making sure I have accounted for all the possible MECHANICAL options I can put on the battlefield. Such as rough terrain which I almost always forget about.

2

Q: Pathfinder encounter building checklist

I have been GMing in pathfinder for a little under a year now and I have recently realized that I have not been taking full advantage of certain aspects of combat encounters such as terrain effects and such. I looked online for a checklist of possible things such as, difficult terrain, special o...

pathfinder encounter-design

Zachiel

So mine is not a question for main, it's just a "hey guys, I've discovered Stormwind is real"

IgneusJotunn

@Zachiel I hate it when I do that.

Zachiel

@IgneusJotunn what that?

IgneusJotunn

Run smack into stormwind

Zachiel

12:34 PM

I mean, I'm sure I could just play a wizard that's as weel characterized as a sorcerer and, as long as I'm able to play it really well, there's nothing impeding me to get a very powerful character and a good RPing - problems arise when I'd like to play a high charisma.

so maybe that's not really Stormwind, after all

It's just me being envious of people that's fine with getting a mechanically worse character in order to better characterize their character.

IgneusJotunn

12:48 PM

Hrm. I understand that. The process of optimizing for something constrains your options, since there are more optimal possibilities.

I guess I tend to work at it the other way, placing the constraints first and then optimizing from there. It's why I still love random rolling stats- it feels less like shooting myself in the foot, and more like just getting shot in the foot. (Exalted actually got much more fun once I figured out a way to random roll attribute allocation.)

It helps that I play with pretty low-op groups. My monk can still kick the druid's butt.

Zachiel

@IgneusJotunn Yeah, when the wizard is dealing 120 damage with a single level 6 spell...

not so fun to be unoptimized. (when the unoptimized character is still throwing around twinned chained enervations, mind you)

IgneusJotunn

Yowzers. I'd forgotten about those, it's been so long since I got to cut loose.

Don't suppose the whole group would be interested in a limited game? Tier 4-5 classes only, for example? There's a lot more variety down there. (For example, it's not all spellcasters. Of course, now there are no real spellcasters, but you can't win 'em all.)

Miniman

1:40 PM

@BESW I'm going to reuse that simile.

DuckTapeAl

Oh, god, the GMPC train just got worse.

0

Q: how to handle a Wraith Bond?

I recently saw gameplay of Shadow of Mordor, and I wanted to see if there was any pathfinder rules to represent the wraith and branding systems? The current party I have prepped has a sorceress/wizard, a duskblade/warblade and a Spirit Hunter Ranger/fighter yes it's gestalt.

pathfinder

Rinari7

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/58654/pros-and-cons-of-dice-based-versus-other-systems
Was told to come on chat to discuss. I assume this is the right place?

DuckTapeAl

Typically, yeah.

IgneusJotunn

This is the chat- I know sometimes people set up separate rooms for specific topic discussion, but it's kinda dead in here so I don't think anyone will mind.

DuckTapeAl

1:56 PM

Yeah, there aren't typically lots of people around here at this time.

Oh, wow, yeah, that's pretty broad.

IgneusJotunn

Just read your question. Yeah, that might be a lot bigger than you were intending.

wax eagle

whispers: anything that asks for pros and cons is already too broad...the topic then broadens the question further

IgneusJotunn

I know you're looking for an overview, but the main thing I see is that your two reference categories ("dice based" and "not dice based") are huge. Just in the dice based section alone, you have Dogs in the Vineyard, D&D, and Mythenders, all of which use dice in very different ways. Non-dice based are even broader- Microscope and Nobilis, the two that first come to my mind, have basically nothing in common other than a lack of dice.

wax eagle

Amber, Do: PotFT, Dread...the list is huge

DuckTapeAl

Also, a very large number of games have all three of your requirements as core design criteria, so they don't actually narrow it down any further.

IgneusJotunn

2:04 PM

Imagine your perfect answer. Right now, it would list at least a dozen systems, have at least four sections (overview, pros, cons, and feel) and analyze the fundamental systems at play. Once you had that answer, what problem would it solve for you?

BESW

Games like Cthulhu Dark and Pilgrims of the Flying Temple use randomisation like dice, but have no stats which modify the dice. Dread uses a Jenga tower. A Penny For My Thoughts has no randomisation at all.

But you'd probably not want Cthulhu Dark in your answers because it handles combat very strictly: if you fight a monster, you die.

kviiri

What would be a good alignment move for a chaotic wizard?

In Dungeon World.

IgneusJotunn

@kviiri When you warp or twist something permanently with magic, mark XP?

kviiri

That's a good one, but reminds me I'd probably best ask my player whether they mean "rebel" or "insane" or... whatever, when they said they want to be chaotic :P

BESW

Pilgrims and Penny don't give a flying rat's tailfeathers about the difference between physical and social conflict; they make no distinction between those kinds of actions at all. Is that "equally important and complex," or do you need something like Fate's separate-but-equal mental and physical stress tracks with separate skills for attack and defence in each, to qualify?

Rinari7

2:12 PM

I'm not looking for any specific problem. I'm looking for precisely that overview. :P
I guess stack exchange is the wrong place to go?

BESW

If it'd take a book to cover, the Stack isn't really equipped to field it. There are thousands of RPGs out there, and at least hundreds of them would be valid fodder for your question. The Stack needs to be able to differentiate between "right" and "wrong" answers usefully. What would a "wrong" answer to your question look like?

DuckTapeAl

Your question could be salvageable if you very sharply reduced the scope.

Rinari7

Good question, actually. I'm not sure there really is a "wrong" answer.

DuckTapeAl

If there are no wrong answers, then Stack isn't the best place for it.

BESW

More generally, the Stack struggles to deal with "I'm curious" questions because it's designed to provide actionable solutions to problems people face. Sometimes we can handle those sorts of things anyway, but it's hard and often just not feasible.

Rinari7

2:17 PM

I'm primarily looking for a fantasy-based system, although I'm more interested in an exploration of the fundamental effect different systems will have on the gameplay, especially on the "feel" of the gameplay.

BESW

If there's not a problem you're looking to solve, it's gonna be real hard to scope the question down to something the Stack can handle without neutering what you really want to know.

Rinari7

Is there a particular place I should go to discuss this or find this sort of information, then?

DuckTapeAl

BoardGameGeek, maybe?

BESW

I would start by looking at the blogs in our chat feed and seeing what sites and forums they reference in ways that relate to your interests.

IgneusJotunn

@Rinari7 If you're looking for a system, then we can handle that- system recommendation questions have enough precedent you can get a good example.

Just not all the systems, if that makes sense.

BESW

2:27 PM

@Rinari7 You might also look into the Forge's articles. They're outdated and almost impenetrable, but fascinating to wade through. The Forge is one of the early places where people came together online to deconstruct assumptions about the RPG experience and rebuild it to see what makes it tick.

It's the community which birthed games like My Life With Master and Dogs in the Vineyard.

doppelgreener

@Miniman @BESW i don't understand this simile

oh wait

now i get it x)

BESW

More recent blogs like our own @Magician's Goblin Dice entry may be useful too.

MadMAxJr

It's a shame to sit and review a question that is unpopular, thinking that the asker is clearly trying to resolve/answer something, only to much later come to the conclusion that they're just looking for discussion.

Rinari7

Thanks for the recommendations.
I get what you guys are saying.

Maybe I should also state the purpose of the question: a friend of mine likes to build worlds, and so we decided to try to make an RPG together, me the mechanics and he'll do the setting.
I'm basically looking for resources that will give me an overview of possibilities (the sky's the limit, I know, but I'd like some inspiration as well as the pros and cons of each).

MadMAxJr

2:44 PM

There's actually a worldbuilding.SE that handles a lot of how-does / what if questions related to science and societal issues custom content.

IgneusJotunn

@Rinari7 Read the forge stuff. They have a ton of theory.

Rinari7

I'm not looking for worldbuilding, though I do know about the stack exchange. I'm looking for an overview of mechanics that have been used before that I might want to draw from.

I guess I should delete my question, then.
And I will look at the forge, thank you

DuckTapeAl

Good luck!

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:07 PM

clsoe votes

1

Q: Would 5e's (dis)advantage rule break Pathfinder or 4e?

I really like the advantage/disadvantage system in 5e. Has it been play tested as a sole addition to the Pathfinder/4e rules and practically or theoretically found to have any breaking change impact or unforeseen consequences?

dnd-4e pathfinder dnd-5e advantage

StuperUser

3:22 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith Did you see my comment? how can I make this more specific? It's about a single rule being added into either or both of 2 defined specific rule sets. Should it be about just combat or just skill checks for a single system, otherwise it'd be split into at least 4 questions. Not sure how best to improve it.

Or whether it's salvageable? Seems like there's at least a kernel of a decent question in there.

@SevenSidedDie SPT is to get a consensus "either the GM or the group as a whole should sit down and look at this list, and pick the ideal options for this game", "There’s room for negotiation, but remember- the group needs to pick ONE of each category.". The question is whether or not the benefits are useful enough to run through it at all, before letting the players play.

SPT doesn't take long to run through, but it's combined with what RPGs are, and who your character is, and what they can do, and what a class is and what a race is and who the NPCs are and where you are and how combat works and, and, and...

The SPT simplifies games but, it's another layer of complexity for new players. To use an analogy that's unfairly weighted. "Is it worth agreeing with people learning to juggle 3 bean bags how much spin to put on club when passing it?" That's how it seems now. Is the SPTs additional complexity worth it?

SevenSidedDie

4:44 PM

@StuperUser I see where you're coming from. I think you've got experienced-RPG blinkers on, though. What the SPT is, primarily, is a reminder of one's own assumptions via reminders that they're not actually the default, just your own.

So for a group of new players, who have no assumptions and no defaults, what it's good for is reminding the GM of what is useful to tell the players up-front. Like, what is a player's job? What is the GM's job? Those are super-useful to tell new players, because they have no idea and you have no idea what guesses they might have already made. Laying that out is useful, and the SPT is there to remind you to do it.

Of course they have no experience to draw on, so they can't really debate the details. For new players, it's just about reminding the GM not to surprise the players.

StuperUser

Yes, I'm keen to be consistent and not piss anyone off by surprising them with a rule or something that would leave them feeling cheated, except for something built into the game like a trap.

mxyzplk

I tend to differ on this. I think the experienced-RPG blinkers are the ones that think people really want to have opinions, or even guidance, on that before they get their feet wet. It's like someone new to wine, and having a wine aficionado try to guide their selections. "Let me try a couple first, then we can get into pros and cons and yes these and not those." It's way too fiddly for new players.

StuperUser

I've followed gomad's example of choosing what seems like the funnest choices given my understanding of the players and me and what we'll all enjoy, but keep it implicit for them for now, and as they become interested, go through the choices I made and how I aimed to guide play and then start the discussion once they get interested enough to enjoy it.

SevenSidedDie

@mxyzplk I think that's what I'm getting at. Use the SPT to check your own assumptions, so that you're clear about what y'all are doing around the table tonight. "So RPGs are this thing... your job is X, mine is Y, let's play!"

mxyzplk

I hear what you're saying, and I still think it's wonky overhead. It might be nice in this case to people play the way they like for 15 minutes before needing to tell them how to do it, maybe learning something.

StuperUser

4:56 PM

It's easier to learn to drive without having a discussion about all of the highway code. You can be told "Stop at red lights." and have other hazards and rules discussed as they occur while driving/playing, once a lot of the skills, experiences, attitudes are innate.

SevenSidedDie

@DuckTapeAl You know that RPGGeek exists, right? Much better for discussing RPGs than BGG. :)

StuperUser

I'll listen to Chris Perkins introducing Mike K to D&D again and see what he emphasises and ignores as an example.

SevenSidedDie

@mxyzplk I'm not even thinking of "how people like to play", I'm thinking like fundamentals. "I'm the GM. I don't have a character, and my job is to impartially run the world. You're the players, and your job is to try to make your character survive in a dangerous world. I won't help you, but I will be fair."

And that's very different from "I'm the GM, and my job is to facilitate the game. You're the players, and your job is to play your character in a believable and interesting way, by aiming for good things and trouble, like a soap opera. Don't worry, you can't die by surprise."

Theik

@DuckTapeAl Oh hey, you found the wraith question. The train to 'oh god make it end' continues.

SevenSidedDie

@StuperUser So like, "This is a car. Here's the steering wheel and here's the brake and gas. I'll explain the gearing in a minute. Anyway, your job is to control the thing. It won't fix your mistakes, so it's all on you."

gomad

5:02 PM

My answer seems popular, anyone want further increments of $0.02 from me?

SevenSidedDie

With cars we normally expect people to have grown up around them and know those basics, but people don't grow up around RPGs and might have wildly different ideas based on other entertainments or media. So, the SPT gives you a checklist of things to remember aren't obvious even to regulars; use that on yourself, and feed the result into the "oh yeah, you'll need to know what the hell I'm doing for this to work" introduction.

Theik

I'd really recommend handing them the rest of the car as well, they're not going anywhere with just a steering wheel, a brake and the gas pedal.

3

SevenSidedDie

@gomad If you've got refinements already in mind, they can't hurt, right?

gomad

I think it was important and useful to have the common ground we got from the SPT before making characters. It told them what the space of valid choices for characters was shaped like.

I have used the SPT before to basically disastrous effect while trying to re-start a group that had succumbed to a combination of abused-player syndrome and GM burnout.

StuperUser

@SevenSidedDie Yes and no. Both of those paragraphs are useful and getting the tone right is important, but neither of the paragraphs is about getting everyone to agree or a set of criteria. The crux of the question is whether getting consensus on the tone and what criteria is rather than bald statements "You hit stuff hard, You can make sure we don't die and hit stuff, you hit stuff with fire. Okay go."

Is distracting.

SevenSidedDie

5:07 PM

@StuperUser I think you're overestimating how much "getting on the same page" requires overt discussing and agreement. Getting on the same page is, often, just saying, "hey, this is the page we're starting from, everyone flipped to it? Great, let's go."

StuperUser

RPG are hella fun, but is SPT about nuance that, generally, distracts new players.

@SevenSidedDie That's the meat of it.

Theik

That's not how I remember switching to pages back in college. It was always "wait I brought the wrong book" or "is that the page before or after page x?"

SevenSidedDie

@Theik That can happen too with the SPT! Which is an excellent thing to figure out earlier rather than later, yes? :)

gomad

So I was more careful with how I did it with this group, and I think it paid off. It made things that are usually implicit explicit. It could be coincidence (I have a sample size of 1) but this has been one of the best new-group kickoffs I've ever had or been party to.

Theik

Indeedy. =)

StuperUser

5:10 PM

@SevenSidedDie @gomad If everyone agrees with how I suggest to play, it can be explicit, but succinct and we can get going with the fun-having and dice-rolling.

Theik

Everybody loves rolling dice.

gomad

@StuperUser - Yeah, I would do it as I described it. You can skip the pre-first-session thing if you want, because it sounds like you already know what game you're going to play, and that's perfectly cool.

SevenSidedDie

@StuperUser Yeah. And with novices to RPGs, you're unlikely to get any disagreement unless someone really has a clear idea that something isn't going to work. Like "Oh, I thought we were playing cooperatively? I don't wanna do a player-vs-player thing."

gomad

We spent maybe 30 minutes on it and then got on with the Apocalypse World-ing

Theik

I think with people who have absolutely no idea what a RPG is, you might have a problem with the same page tool, simply because they have no idea what really to expect.

StuperUser

5:12 PM

@SevenSidedDie I was overestimating the discussing and agreement. I didn't want to be a GM fiat tyrant, but making it clear, well, is leadership rather than tyranny.

gomad

I've got to go, so TTFN, but I hope it works out for you, whatever you choose!

Theik

@StuperUser That's what all tyrants say. ;)

SevenSidedDie

@StuperUser Right! Yes. That is exactly what I'm getting at: leadership versus tyranny. Now we're on the same page. ;)

StuperUser

@gomad, it was really useful, thank you. I hope it goes as well as yours did.

SevenSidedDie

@gomad When you're back I'd be interested in storytime about that debacle if you're up for it.

@Theik I really want to leave a comment on that question saying, basically, quit throwing kitchen sinks into the damn game and start playing it. But being tempted doesn't mean it'll be useful to say.

Theik

5:18 PM

Yeah I don't really understand what his plan is.

He's going to have some sort of wraith-ranger with a katana-bastardsword as a DMPC and...ehm...yeah.

I think that's about as far as he has planned his campaign.

SevenSidedDie

@Theik Good-aligned assassin duskblade//warblade graceful master of western-shaped swordfighting trained as a blacksmith at his father's knee on a quest to reforge his father's adamantium Full Moon's Trick houseruled Weapon of Legacy, based on previous questions. And now, able to teleport, temporarily go invisible, and mind-control enemies at will.

Theik

I wonder if his campaign has a goal, vague setting or even a general idea yet, apart from his own character. :P

SevenSidedDie

@Theik I get the distinct impression that the plan is young teenager-stuck-in-the-country wish-fulfillment, and the neighbour's kids are just along for the ride.

Theik

I fear so, I fear so.

SevenSidedDie

@Theik He's pretty much said so. At which point, I found some sympathy and remembered my own mistakes at 15, and that some things can only be learned by doing. I just wish he'd get to the doing and stop mucking around with the GMPC.

Theik

5:26 PM

Best way to learn is to watch your campaign go up in smoke because your players get tired of hearing about your awesome DMPC.

SevenSidedDie

@Theik Yeah, pretty much.

In my first high school D&D group was one player who, before ever playing with a group, had been running his own solo stuff with the rules. I didn't really get it, but he had fun with making up his awesome PCs and pitting them against impossible odds. No different than creative writing at that point, right, and creative writing is all good.

Theik

Might also be a case of "nobody wants to DM and I don't really want to either"

SevenSidedDie

Wish Cataru would do that.

@Theik That's exactly it. They apparently had this PC idea long before, and nobody else will DM, so "my PC is just my PC and is only getting called a GMPC because I have to be DM." Paraphrasing, but not by much.

Theik

Yeah than this kind of thing is to be expected.

SevenSidedDie

Tangentially, I don't understand what is happening over here:

4

Q: Can I use a Wolf or a Dire-Wolf as a Warlock familiar?

I'm new at D&D and I want to create a Drow, Rogue-Warlock (First Rogue and later Warlock) but I want to have a Dire-Wolf as a familiar but I don't know if it's possible. I want it for the background I'm building for my character. I saw in the Appendix D of the Player's Handbook the Dire Wolf and...

dnd-5e rogue warlock familiars

I think it's a poster child for the XY Problem, but I'm not really sure.

Theik

5:31 PM

I...have no idea.

I want to be drizzt but not drizzt?

SevenSidedDie

It's related to their other question. I think they really have one question about how to get a ridable familiar, but I'm not sure because lack of communication.

Notice how their self-answer on the one is a cut-and-paste from their comment objecting to an answer on the other.

Theik

Yep

SevenSidedDie

Chewing it, I think their real question is "Can I get a rideable familiar?"... except maybe not, because they seem to have their backstory and desired animal already locked down.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie how can I make a wolf riding PC who's also a warlock

without being a Ranger...

(and the idea of TPing a Quasit into a Dire Wolf being an answer is...kind of ridiculous)

SevenSidedDie

@waxeagle Yeah. But it's smeared across two questions, making a massive edit not really workable. :/

Well, they've got their desired solution already, so I guess it doesn't matter unless they return with more problems with implementing it.

Theik

5:40 PM

Yeah its a bit...weird

Pixie

The question itself is okay, it's just the response to the answers, which are kinda straightforward. And "would it be allowed" is a question only the GM can answer.

SevenSidedDie

@Pixie Yeah, the questions would be fine — stolid, rules-based queries that we handle well — if it wasn't for the creeping suspicion that they're the wrong questions.

Pixie

@SevenSidedDie Yeah. At the very least, it's less a question of "can I" and "I am bent on doing this, so how do I."

SevenSidedDie

@Pixie Yeah. Which should just be one question, and would get radically different answers than the existing ones.

If miniman didn't already have a highly-upvoted answer on that second one, I'd do a big renovation to make it about their apparent real question. That way better ideas than "polymorph a quasit" could be offered by other users.

Pixie

Yeah. P: Ah well. Like you said, if they're happy with that, that's about all we can do for now.

Theik

5:46 PM

Well to be fair, by accepting his own answer he is giving the wrong idea to people who are curious about the same thing.

Cause the answer to his question is pretty much just plain "no".

SevenSidedDie

@Theik Point. I've left a comment on Miniman's answer to get buy-in for invalidating their answer, so we can fix the question and clear the way for better solutions to "I want a Warlock with a rideable wolf familiar" than "polymorph a quasit".

Theik

Yeah. His question asks "is this possible" and "yes, if you use a polymorph loophole" is not a valid answer.

Pixie

@Theik This is true, but I don't know that there's any way to do anything about an answer that's been accepted. We can downvote the answer, but it is an answer, even if it's not a very good one. So it'll have to stay.

SevenSidedDie

@Theik The massive downvoting will probably warn off anyone stumbling across the answer. :) But yeah, we should only be hosting real questions, if we can help it.

Theik

Looks like the downvoting thing is working just fine by itself lol.

We're not the only ones who think it's a terrible answer.

SevenSidedDie

5:50 PM

@Pixie That's why I want to rework the question to reflect what they're really after, as revealed by their comments and that answer.

Also because the 5e regulars can almost certainly come up with a better solution, if only the question was plainly stated.

Pixie

I'd imagine.

wax eagle

@SevenSidedDie at the very least a "work with your DM to work out an amiable solution" I had a player ask for a Tiger mount. I'm accommodating it. It's going to require some tweaks to the normal mount rules (which don't have a middle ground between horse and dragon really)

mxyzplk

@SevenSidedDie Yeah so there's a difference between explaining what an RPG is and the SPT. In your example you're abridging it enough that it's not the SPT, it's just "telling them something," which isn't what the question is about per se.

Theik

@waxeagle Should have suggested they polymorph their badger into a tiger.

wax eagle

@Theik ....sure....

:P

Theik

5:54 PM

Bonus points if it starts singing the badger badger badger song as a tiger.

Pixie

@Theik No, it would start singing Kenya instead.

Theik

@Pixie That's lions

Pixie

@Theik Lions and tigers.

Theik

Man those kenyans get all the cool animals.

Their rangers are spoiled for choice.

Pixie

(I have a majority of early Weebl songs seared into my memory.)

SevenSidedDie

5:56 PM

@mxyzplk Yeah, that came out of the misunderstanding about how they're applying it. In the mode where the GM fills it out and uses it to set expectations, it can work fine with a new set of players. But that's been sorted. :)

Theik

Wait can you dispell a permanent polymorph in 5e?

SevenSidedDie

Hey, vote for a new blog in the chat feed? Up or down, whichever. :)

Theik

I have this mental image now of somebody dispelling the polymorph mid-ride and the warlock crushing the poor quasit.

SevenSidedDie

0

A: RPG General Chat: vote for your feeds!

The Alexandrian http://thealexandrian.net/ An influential blog written with an eye to using analytical theory to develop practical tools for GMing. Especially good for campaign building and adventure building concepts and tools. The author is critical of various D&D designs without being an ed...

Pixie

Oh that would be hilarious.

SevenSidedDie

5:58 PM

@Theik A good "polymorph a quasit" answer would include a warning about that possibility!

Theik

Too bad he didn't ask about a flying animal. Watching him plummet to his death clinging to a quasit is even more hilarious.

wax eagle

@Theik I don't have my PHB here, and TP is in there not basic, so I can't say

Orcus vs The World (and Mechanus)

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